A Study of Romans 11:25-26
by 3am

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

This passage is most frequently used in an attempt by dispensationalists to prove that there will be a future gathering of national Israel into the land after the church has been raptured away and during a period of great tribulation which is said to fulfill Daniel’s prophecy of the 70th week. Many will go so far as to say that all Jews on the earth at that timewill be saved . This purpose of this paper is to examine the passage in context to determine whether Paul is pointing to a future gathering of a national Israel, or a present gathering of Spiritual Israel into Christ.

Romans 11 can best be understood against the Old Testament backdrop.
‘‘I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles (Is 42:6).
‘‘It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”
It has always been God's plan for Israel to be the means by which God saves all mankind who would be saved. This was explicit in God's original promise to Abraham. The LORD had said to Abram,
‘‘I will make you into a great nation… all peoples on earth will be blessed through you” (Gen 12:1-3).

Our passage in Romans 11 refers to Isaiah’s prophecy in Isa. 59. Verses 1-15 describes the sinfulness of Israel. The LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice (v15). He was appalled that there was no one to intervene; therefore his own arm worked salvation for him, and his own righteousness sustained him.
As a result, God becomes the warrior (v17) and comes against Israel like a pent up flood and repays wrath for their sinfulness. So that from the ends of the earth (Gentiles) men will revere his name (18,19). He attacks Israel to save Gentiles.

Now how does all of this happen?
“The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the LORD. "As for me, this is my covenant with them” (20, 21).
God turns against Israel in wrath for rejecting Him, so that the Gentiles will fear Him, and then those in Israel who repent of their sins will be saved. Jesus, the Redeemer, will come only to those of Israel who repent. Not all Jews will be saved, only those who repent of their sins. Repentance was the condition for the redemption of a scattered Israel.
Romans 11 adds a surprising twist to the manner in which God comes against Israel to bring salvation to all. Jesus is the Divine Redeemer who had already come to Zion. The text of Isaiah 59:20 literally states that the Redeemer will come “to” Zion. Paul modifies this Phrase of Isaiah by stating that the Deliverer will come “from” Zion in Romans 11:26, because Christ had already come from out of Israel. ‘Out of Zion refers to Christ’s first advent,’ Salvation is from a Jewish Messiah. Christ who came out of Zion, still comes to Israel through gospel preaching, in order to redeem them from their sins of unbelief and hardening of heart. In this way all believing Israelites will be saved (v26).

The illustration of the olive tree (vs 11-24) clearly shows that there is only one plan for both Israel and the church. Paul hopes to arouse the Jews to envy in order to save some (v14). The believing Gentiles are grafted into the very same tree that the non believing Jews are cut off from. Then the Jews who believe are grafted back into the same tree. He then warns the gentiles who have been grafted in, that they not fall into unbelief or they will be cut off. There is only one Tree, which is Jesus. He is the only way of salvation for Jew and Gentile alike.

Now Paul makes his statement about the hardening of Israel until the fullness of the gentiles comes in. And so all Israel will be saved. " And so" translates the Greek "hutos" which means in this way or manner. In other words, All Israel will be saved by Jews and Gentiles being grafted into the same tree. The mention of "all Israel" is the climax of the story of the olive tree.

Paul clarifies his position and delivers a death blow to the idea that he is speaking of a future gathering of Israel after the church has been raptured.
Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you (Ro 11:30-31).
I think it is extremely significant that Paul uses the present "now" three times. Paul is not speaking of some future all Jewish kingdom, he is speaking of the present. Israel can now receive mercy, the do not have to wait for some future time. The remnant of Old Testament Israel is being gathered now in the church. There is an amazing interdependence between the Jew and the Gentile. Salvation comes to the Gentiles from the Jews through a Jewish Messiah, but God uses the envy of the Jews against the Gentiles to win the Jews to his kingdom. This interdependence prohibits the projection of the salvation of the Jews into the future after a rapture of the church. God's surprising plan is to bring Israel back to Himself by means of the church preaching the gospel to the Jews. If Paul were talking about Israel being saved by “Seeing Jesus at the Rapture,” you would think he would have said something about it. Instead, the manner of Israel’s Salvation is the present interdependence with the church.

The fact, as we have already seen, that Paul points to himself as evidence that God has not rejected his people (11:1) is consistent with Paul’s entire argument. The proof that God has not rejected his people, he said, is that “I am an Israelite and I am a part of the people of God”. They like Paul can become a part of the remnant, Israel of God now if they too believe like Paul does. He is not referring to a special favor for literal Jews in the future.
After referring to Elijah, Paul concludes again, "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. (Rom 11:5) Again, this leaves no room for a dispensational future kingdom consisting only of natural Israel, the remnant is being formed now and consists of Jewish and Gentile believers.

Paul is not saying that all Jews will be saved. Why should only the generation of Jews living in the time of the end be assured of salvation by some kind of divine decree? Paul has expressed his hope that “some of them” (v. 14) might be saved. It seems evident from this that he believed that many would reject all efforts to save them, and that accordingly he never envisioned the conversion of the entire nation.
Now is the time to preach the Gospel to the Jews.
What a travsty to let them believe that they dont have to believe in Jesus.
They get a second chance after the rapture. This is just not Biblical.
3am

in this dispensation, all (jews and gentiles) must believe in Jesus to be saved.........and when a person believes in Jesus, they become a christian (IN CHRIST, there is neither jew nor gentile)

in the next dispensation, the rules are different.


Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,

my thoughts:
ISRAEL will increase in number FOREVER INFINITELY...........there is a finite number of Christians (the fullness of the gentiles).

So, the ELECT JEWISH NATION will be having babies and generations of babies INFINITELY FOREVER.








Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.


Gen 32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.
Gen 41:49 And Joseph gathered corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until he left numbering; for it was without number.


Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.
Hos 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

are Christians gentiles? or are they Jews as grafted into the tree,
and no longer gentiles? are Jews that are not believers given a promise
of return as a remnant, as the gentile believer? is this speaking of
origin or new birth?

the Word says there is not Jew or Gentile in Christ...


please clarify. and just a brief study...as i know this is a subject of generations,
and generations.

blessings,
signet

if i remember correctly
i think shekel said
there are 3 kinds of people now............jews, gentiles, christians

christians are...............IN CHRIST, there is neither jew nor gentile, slave nor free, male nor female, greek nor barbarian, etc

I have already posted my thoughts on this elsewhere so I wont rehash except to say that in the OT they were saved by the same Gospel that we have in the NT.

Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Heb 4:2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they [OT Israel] did;

That is why the Gospel is called the "Everlasting Gospel" (Revelation 4:6).
And that is why Paul said that anyone who preaches any other Gospel is accursed!
The rules do not change. Only those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior will be saved.

If they keep having babies infinitely, where will they go?
That is a lot of babies. Infinitely means they will eventually occupy more space that the earth has.
If if you insist this is literal then then the earth will be filled up. Then where do they go?

After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands..... 13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” 14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Re 7:9-14).

Lots of good stuff here.
First and foremost, those who are saved and make it through the great tribulation have washed their robe in the blood of the Lamb.
That means they were saved by grace.
So even if there was a pre-trib rapture and people were saved during the tribulation, It would not be a different kind of salvation. There is only one Gospel.

Secondly, the "Un-numbered multitude" is not just Jews. They are from every nation!
Sounds like Christians to me, white robes, every nation, praising the Lamb, cleansed by the blood of the Lamb.
3am

There is no condition of national ethnic lineage with regard to matters of salvation ..... none. But the Bible distinctly describes a difference between national Israel and all of the other nations of the world running in parallel together with matters of salvation. Much of traditional interpretation discards national Israel as no longer revelant to end time exegesis and this is faulty thinking. The scriptures are repleat with just the opposite position. Both O.T. and N.T. stand and support understanding to the contrary against the idea that national Israel is no longer relevant. When the fullness of the Gentiles (nations) is added to the Body of Christ, the Lord will then turn His specific attention and focus upon a returned national Israel in the Middle East.

This separation runs throughout the scriptures .... and so will it be at the time of the end. The Lord has a purpose for keeping the nation separate for many reasons and these can be found in all related scriptures. One who does not study this truth and understand it will have great difficulty grasping the correct exegesis of the end times. He has set the nation as an ensign and a point of reference for all of the other nations of the world. Many today mix Israel and the nations because the Body of Christ has no national distinction related to salvation. They then apply this truth to a distinctive national identity which is contrary to what is revealed in scripture. Doing this results in contradictive returns to the reader and those who do it either have to allegorize or sweep these incongruencies under the rug.

Christians are anyone who follows Jesus Christ.
The Bible does not do away with races literally. There are Jews, Italians, Germans, etc.
But Salvation knows no such distinction.
When a person accepts Christ, they are Christians. Jewish Christians, German Christians, Spanish Christians. Christians!!!
No one receives a more special treatment because of their race.
When we believe, we are descendants of Abraham in the eyes of God.
As the Bible says, we are reckoned as his children.
The only blood that counts is Jesus blood.

The promises to National Israel that they would return as a remnant are always conditional promises (Exodus 19: 4, 5; Deut 28, 30, Jeremiah 18: 1-10 and many many more). The condition is submission or obedience to God.
If a Jew never becomes a believer, there is no hope for him. It is the same as for the gentiles.
The birth that really matters is as you said, the New Birth.

You are right. This is one of the most profound declarations in Scriptures and one that certainly stunned those Jews who were relying on their heritage.

Paul makes one thing clear. Just because a person has Jewish blood, that does not make him a descendant of Abraham. For example, Ishmael was just as much Abraham's son as Isaac was. But Ishmael was not reckoned as Abraham's descendant. Why not?
Neither was Essau even though he and Jacob were twins, same father and mother and Essau was born first.
Why was he not reckoned as Abraham's descendant?
"It is not as though God's Word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring (Ro 9:6-8).
Just being a physical Jew does not qualify one as Abraham's offspring or God's Children.
The children of the promise are regarded (reckoned: KJV) as Abraham's children. The key word here is "reckoned."
Who then are the children of the promise?
Gal 3: 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham.

The reason Ishmael and Essau were not reckoned as children of God is because they did not believe.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were "Reckoned" as children of God because they did believe.
And God knew from the beginning they would not believe.
Physical blood does not matter, it is faith that matters. And this is even in the OT.
Israel was always "spiritual Israel" from the beginning.
The reason this is true is because
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ (Gal 3:16). /color]

God never did make the promise to literal descendants except for only one descendant, Jesus.
Then when we are in Christ, we become Abraham's Descendants.
[color=#3333FF]Gal 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I hope this helps.
The key is to let Jesus be the interpreter, let him be the center of the prophecies.
Not the Land or geography.
Those who fail to recognize Jesus in the Prophecies are like the OT Jews who wanted a veil on Moses Face to keep from being blinded by it's brilliance.
We are not like Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart (2 Co 3:13-15).

There is so much more to be said. But it is Thanksgiving and I need to go help my wife!
So I will save it for later.
God Bless you and have a great Thanksgiving.
3am

This post is a classic example of of 2 Cor 3:13 and following.
It is an interpretation that leaves Christ and the cross out, as though they had never happened.
It did happen and it does make a difference.
This interpretation ignores the method of the NT writers that the promise was made not to many (National Israel) but to only one who is Christ.
Not only is Jesus missing, but there are no Bible texts given.
Not one of the arguments in the original post are refuted with Scripture.
It is the argument of one man and his opinion.
What a pity that it leaves out the perfect work of Christ on the cross which abolished the barrier between Jew and Gentile and and made them one man, fellow citizens in Israel, the Israel that really counts. (Eph 2)

Israel is never separate from matters of salvation.
Her covenant promises are always conditional on her obedience to God.
Exodus 19:4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."This is a mater of salvation. The purpose of Israel is the same as the purpose for Abraham; "Through you, all the nations of the earth will be blessed."
Isaiah clarified the "Saving" purpose of Israel.
Isaiah 2:2 In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.

3 Many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Salvation and Israel go hand in hand. You cannot have one with out the other.
When National finally rejected God and was about to crucify the Saviour, Jesus told them "the kingdom of God is taken away from you and given to a new nation."
Peter said that new nation is the church, ! Peter 2:9.
God's purpose for Israel will be accomplished through Jesus and His church, the new "Israel of God (Gal 6:16)."
The text is Romans 11:25 and 26 and that is not what it says.
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
The text does not say; " then turn His specific attention and focus upon a returned national Israel in the Middle East."
It is a new covenant fulfillment of an OT Promise that Jesus, the deliverer who will come from Zion, will take away their sins. Jesus has already come from Zion (a Jew from the line of Judah). Where is a future gathering to the "Middle East" mentioned?
I have tried to carefully show in the first post that that text is dealing with a present salvation for Israel, not a future one, except for those who will yet accept Christ as a part of the church.
But nowhere in the text does he hint of a future gathering based on Jewish blood.
If I have missed it then show me where the error is and I will acknowledge it.
If you dont want to show me, at least show the others that are reading the thread so they can know you are not just following the popular teachings but you are following Scripture.

Allowing the NT writers and Jesus to define the OT promises and prophecies is not allegorizing or sweeping away anything.
When we accept what Paul plainly said, "The promises were made to one seed who is Christ" that is a literal interpretation. Wa are literally accepting what Paul said.
Those to try to force the regathering of a disobedient Israel into the land, are "sweeping away the in-congruencies." The promises to national Israel are always conditional upon her obedience.

3am

Your view here is traditional SDA theology and it is too narrow. Mixing national Israel and with the Body of Christ is contradictory to the visions of the Bible prophets which still stand as truth ..... nothing has or can change this.

SDA theology has nothing to do with it. If SDAs have it right, than good for them.
This view was in place long before they ever came along.
It is steeped in protestant tradition, since Luther and the Reformation.
It was held by Luther, Melancthon (Lutherans), Wesley (Methodists) Calvin (Reformed) as well as a host of modern day Scholars.
None of this proves anything is right or wrong.
I simply proves that you are wrong in trying to dismiss it as SDA theology.
If it is wrong then prove it from Scripture.

I know that youj are not interested in my opinion.
I can live with that.
I am replying for the benefit of others who read this post.
When Stephen is confronted with Biblical truth he cannot refute, he tends to resort to name calling, and putting down the person challenging him.
Please notice he did not offer one text or point out one error in the paper.
3am

"SDA theology has nothing to do with it. If SDAs have it right, than good for them."

Everything to do with your view. This is where you get your teaching .... and the organization does not have the understanding of this subject "right". They have it wrong. And this is the root problem of your understanding regarding national Israel and the Body of Christ. If you are going to teach prophecy you need to straighten out your path on this very significant piece of the picture as it presented in scripture. You go on and on about how you can prove your position by a few new testament scriptures that really have very direct bearing on national Israel's position in prophecy and at the same time you ignore the visions of the Bible prophets that have a great deal to do with the same. Where is your logic?

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;




verse 12
during the OT, the gentiles were HAVING NO HOPE, WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD.........
was God unfair to the gentiles? ...........God was partial to ISRAEL?..... and God should have treated the gentiles the same as ISRAEL?

i don't know,...........we'll have to trust God that He knows what He is doing.........

only Jesus Christ has the Words of Everlasting Life

Only God of the Bible can predict the future.
Only God of the Bible has Perfect Love and Righteousness

But, one thing seems obvious.........ISRAEL is special..........a special case






Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:




Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Stephen,
I am totally open to your pointing out where in my paper, I misinterpreted the Bible.
You refuse. You keep blaming my church and acting as though I dont have a brain to think for myself.
You ignore the fact that the Protestant Reformers have a long history rooted in this theology.
So I stand with Luther.
If I have spoken wrongly that show me from Scripture.

Indeed!!! and He does.
The problem is that the people failed.
Israel was to be a light to the Gentiles.
but they turned inward and thought they were special because they them selves were special.
They did not realize that It was God who made them special.
And he made them special so that they would share it with the world.
But God Sent Jesus, and the Gentiles have a great hope. the exact same hope the Jews have and always have had.

Now you have it!
And that wall was broken down forever.
It is not going back up!
3am

you said:
And he made them special so that they would share it with the world.


my thoughts:
was ISRAEL told to share it with the world?..........before Christ's ministry?

"I am totally open to your pointing out where in my paper, I misinterpreted the Bible.
You refuse. You keep blaming my church and acting as though I dont have a brain to think for myself. You ignore the fact that the Protestant Reformers have a long history rooted in this theology. So I stand with Luther. If I have spoken wrongly that show me from Scripture."

You are not open at all 3AM. You know that I have already shown you the scriptures in the past on this forum. All one has to do is review past posts ..... scads of them. You are a member of your church and you continue to cling to its teachings ..... you know this to be true. The reformers were wrong about this issue and there is much evidence in the scriptures and in history to prove it. Their position was born of anti-RCC and anti-semitism during a time when Israel was scattered among the nations and not in the land. Their world was limited, their international knowledge was limited, and they did not possess the hindsight we have today or the current resources at our disposal. To remain in their shunted views is very limiting to the student of Bible prophecy.

So you are not open at all .... not by the furthest stretch of one's imagination. Your position on national Israel even rings of the "manchild" and "latter rain" cults who say the same with a different twist. Anti-semitism is satanically derived and he has planted it in many places for his purposes along with other related deceptions. I do not have to prove this to you ..... you are responsible for your own understanding ..... not I. Especially if you are a prophecy teacher. You have a Bible, you can read, and you have been in the Word for a long time. You also know the scriptures that support the Lord's intentions with hational Israel, but you refuse to entertain them as if they were not there. So in your understandings, you will stay as, I see it. Each day brings us closer to the Lord's engagement.

Matthew 24;13.....and 14..............the end of the age

as per jesus

verse 16...............judea is in the forefront

verse 20..............ISRAEL prays that their flight is not on a SABBATH........the Church doesn't observe SABBATHS..........so, this is written to JEWS, ISRAEL

verse 22..........the elect is THE ELECT NATION ISRAEL...........the OT and the 4 Gospels were written to the jews

verse 24...........false Christs.........the Church knows who the True Chrisyt is, so this is written to ISRAEL

verse 32...........the fig tree is ISRAEL

verse 45............servants............God never called any of the people in OT ISRAEL "children of god"..........they were called "servants"

so these servants in verses 45-51 are ISRAELITES





JOEL 1;7 AMPLIFIED BIBLE

GOD'S fig tree is ISRAEL





Joel 1 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
[AMP at Lockman] [The Lockman Foundation] [Amplified at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Joel 1
1THE WORD of the Lord that came to [a]Joel the son of Pethuel.

2Hear this, you aged men, and give ear, all you inhabitants of the land! Has such a thing as this occurred in your days or even in the days of your fathers?

3Tell your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

4What the crawling locust left, the swarming locust has eaten; and what the swarming locust left, the hopping locust has eaten; and what the hopping locust left, the stripping locust has eaten.

5Awake, you drunkards, and weep; wail, all you drinkers of wine, because of the [fresh] sweet juice [of the grape], for it is cut off and removed from your mouth.

6For a [heathen and hostile] nation [of locusts, illustrative of a human foe] has invaded My land, mighty and without number; its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and it has the jaw teeth of a lioness.

7It has laid waste My vine [symbol of God's people] and barked and broken My fig tree; it has made them completely bare and thrown them down; their branches are made white.

8Lament like a virgin [bride] girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth [who has died].

This end time passage is all about the believing remnant of national Israel living at the time of the end. No Gentiles of the nations as members of the Body of Christ are included in this vision. Every other prophet on the same subject has the same view. The evidence is multiple:


Ezekiel
36:1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:

36:2 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:

36:3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:

36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;

36:5 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.

36:6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:

36:7 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.

36:8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.

36:9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:

36:10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:

36:11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

36:12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.

36:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations:

36:14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the Lord GOD.

36:16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.


Those who deny or ignore these profound statements by the Lord Himself are attempting in vain to replace national Israel with their church organization. One must also understand that the Lord's discourse in Matthew, Mark, and Luke are directed and focused upon the generation of nation Israel living at the time of the end ..... the Body of Christ is not in view in these passages.The Lord speaks as an O.T. prophet and is expanding on their visions regarding national Israel at the time of the end.

Eze 36;5....amplified bible.........is Edom the same people as Esau....Jacob's twin brother?

is Edom the (today's) Palestinians?

Esau's decendants were mixtures of the canaanites (descendants of Ham) who lived in the land of Israel before them, and Abraham's offspring thru Ishmael. These are still present in the Middle East and particularly in and around Israel. So it is most likely that the Palestinians and others are of this ethnic line. Psalms 83 identifies the same groups who will invade Israel at the time of the end. There are some who render the O.T. obsolete and consider that the Lord is finished with national Israel. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is a serious error made by replacement theologists who would discount the Lord's intentions for His purposes related to national Israel and the time of the end. They think that their church organization has replaced national Israel in prophecy, but volumes of scripture refute their position. They dispute the very word of the Lord Himself and this is a definite indication that something is seriously wrong with their views. The "house" of Israel and related descriptions in the following passage describe national Israel at the time of the end and not a particular church organization.

Ezekiel
35:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

35:2 Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it,

35:3 And say unto it, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O mount Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand against thee, and I will make thee most desolate.

35:4 I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.

35:5 Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an end:

35:6 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will prepare thee unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee.

35:7 Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it him that passeth out and him that returneth.

35:8 And I will fill his mountains with his slain men: in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword.

35:9 I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

35:10 Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two countries shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas the LORD was there:

35:11 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, I will even do according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself known among them, when I have judged thee.

35:12 And thou shalt know that I am the LORD, and that I have heard all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to consume.

35:13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.

35:14 Thus saith the Lord GOD; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I will make thee desolate.

35:15 As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Agreed.



Isn't that interesting however?

That to be "without Christ" is to be "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise".

Hmmmm.....

I agree.




This is wrong. He was speaking to Israeli believers (who became the Church).

Not to (what you term) "national Israel" (whatever that is).

Paul taught directly from the Olivette Discourse, and gave the exact same signs in the exact same order when teaching the Church about the rapture and the coming 70th week (which you claim we will not even see). So your assertions are simply misguided.

The Apostles were obedient to do exactly as Jesus told them:

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The question is important, but there is something far more important.
It is too narrow in scope. We need to broaden our scope of visionary prophecy to not only the immediate context, but the much broader context of the entire OT and even wider to ask "How does the NT interpret the prophecies for these last days.

Careful study of Acts 15 shows that James interpreted Amos' prophecy of the house of David possessing "the remnant of Edom" in Amos 9 as Gentiles coming into the church.
So the house of David would be a type of the church, and the remnant of Edom a type of the Gentiles who come into the church.
That is what I mean by the broader scope of visionary prophecy.
James was using a Christocentric approach instead of interpreting the prophecy by geography.
He and other NT writers and Jesus, disregarded ethnic and geographic boundaries and viewed the prophecies of Israel as types of Christ.

Now the question arises, "Since James clearly saw an OT Israel prophecy as being fulfilled in the church with Jew and Gentile together. And since Jesus has broken down the wall of separation between the Jew and Gentile at the cross. Then will there be another fulfillment of Amos 9, after the church is raptured, which applies to a Jewish nation only? Will God build the wall of separation back? Will God undo the work of Christ on the cross?

Another very good example of expanding the scope of the OT to include the NT view is Ezekiel 36. Stephen posted it earlier.
I need a little more time to write about that one but it is coming.

Once a person grasps the NT approach to the OT the OT comes to life in a way that is almost breath taking!
Because Jesus is always center.
"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Ga 6:14-16).
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One of the greatest questions Ive seen on this forum.

Again, there's the LETTER which killeth and there's the Spirit that giveth life.

The "letter" is the surface of the parable. If this is all you can understand, you will walk in darkness and death.

The "Spirit" is the actual meaning of the parable...the part that's not so evident to the majority of peopleThis is revealed only to whom the Lord chooses.


An Edomite (Esau) - WHAT did Esau DO?
He sold his birthright (relationship to God) to satisfy his flesh.(lost)


An Israelite (Jacob)-What did Jacob DO?
He wreslted with the Angel (Word of God) until he was blessed.(saved) "Birthright" here can be seen as "born again". The new birth.

Is it a stretch to say the "spiritual" meaning of the "Parable" of Esau could be "those who for the service to their flesh (Esau) SELL their birthright-(Jacob) and are hated by God."

I know it's a true story....but it's still a parable. Everything in scripture carryies more than 1 layer of meaning.

This would give us the picture of 2 men in the Earth.

The "saved" and the "un-saved"...HHhhmmm.......

One man is Christ.

The other is Anti-christ.

God loves Christ (True Spiritual Israel-Jacob-all who are IN Christ)) and


God hates AntiChrist-(The World Flesh lovers-Esau-all the wicked who work iniquity
and are In the Antichrist Beast))



Esau and Jacob.

HHHmmm...

[He CHOSE (Israel/Jacob) OUT of all the nations--the WORLD.

He calls US out of the nations of the WORLD to be made alive by His Spirit- (Christian-bearing fruit-obedience-Israel)
We come to be part of Body of Christ.

Those who never come out of the world (Egypt-Flesh-Self-ESAU) will be
in the Body of Antichrist- The Beast.

Jesus said, You are either FOR ME-(Christ) or AGAINST ME. (Antichrist).

Greater in HE that is IN ME...THAN...HE that is IN the WORLD.

One will be taken and one will be left.

Either you have the Mark of God IN your forehead--(renewed mind in agreement with Christ-covenant relationship)

or


You have the Mark of the BEAST IN your fporehead (carnal-worldly mind in agreement with the Antichrist-Self "man" worship).

TWO Marks......Two Men....

JACOB and ESAU

"Again, there's the LETTER which killeth and there's the Spirit that giveth life.

The "letter" is the surface of the parable. If this is all you can understand, you will walk in darkness and death."

All cult talk ..... devil speak. Let the reader beware. Make up the story as we go talk.

Yes, but you must still see Israel and the Gentiles as people separated by nationality.

There is no indication that gentiles become Jews, just as there is no indication that Jews become gentiles.

Quite the opposite is obvious in fact, because James never says that the gentiles became Jews, but rather that they should not be asked to live as Jews, when the Jews (of which he included himself) were not able to do so (that is, to keep the law of Moses).

You have to understand that Israel still exists both in and out of the Church, or they simply do not exist at all. And that is a patently ridiculous claim to make, especially today with Israel in their own land, most likely in fulfillment of parts of Eze 37.



Actually he was saying that the inception of the Church (from among Israel), and the mystery of gentile inclusion, was the fulfillment of that prophecy.



Hardly. The gospel is to the Jew first. The Apostles and Jesus observed this throughout their ministry, even to the point of Jesus appointing an apostle specifically to the gentiles (Paul). And between Paul and the 12 there even came an agreement to minister specifically to those two groups between them. You cannot mix them and come away with a right division of scripture. Yes, gentiles and Israel are in the church, but they have not given up their nationalities, nor the promises to the Fathers. Now you can INCLUDE gentiles as partakers with them in those promises and I will say amen, but you cannot replace Israel with the Church, as the Church is an extension of their program. Even Pauls illustration of the tree does not do that. Both in and out of the Church, they remain Israel, and the promises remain in effect for them that repent and believe the gospel.



Well, answer the question about "what the wall was" and you have your answer.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

This says nothing about ending the national promises which Jesus specifially died to fulfill. Surely you see that? He ended the curse of the law.



I know that you would use their interpretations of specific passages, and apply them across the board. I think there are many places where we can do that. But I think it is better to be guided by their expanded knowledge of the scriptures, and apply what we know they did say, instead of inferring what we think they may have said.

No where was Israel abandoned or replaced brother:

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.



That does not have the meaning your packing into it. All that says, is that just being a Jew doesn't make you an heir.

You have to understand, that this was a new thought for the Jewish believers, and a glorious fulfillment of prophecy (which Paul called the mystery). That is why it was so often stated in this fashion. They neither exalted the gentile, nor disannulled the Jew. And please note again, they did not make one the other either. They simply were telling gentiles and jews that God did not impart mercy based upon nationality, and that he in fact never did. This was a misunderstanding of Israels leadership. The same leadership who was rejected by Him as a result.

I made an assumption that my comments would be understood in the context of the covenants. Obviously I am not saying there is no such thing as a Jew or a national Israel does not exist. I am speaking of the kingdom of God that was taken away from them. My mistake in assuming that would be understood.
I am not denying that Israel is a nation in their own land. That would be insane. What I am saying is that tehy are not the Kingdom of God any more. They are no longer the true Israel. And just because they are in the land does not prove that they are there as a result of the covenant promise or even the prophecies. That is subject matter for an up coming post. Have to save something for later
So please take my comments about Israel, as concerning Israel in the context of her covenant promises.

What is the difference? If it was a fulfillment of the prophecy then James used a Christ centered approach to arrive at that conclusion. I dont see what you are arguing about here.



[email]Hardly. The gospel is to the Jew first. The Apostles and Jesus observed this throughout their ministry, even to the point of Jesus appointing an apostle specifically to the gentiles (Paul). And between Paul and the 12 there even came an agreement to minister specifically to those two groups between them. You cannot mix them and come away with a right division of scripture. Yes, gentiles and Israel are in the church, but they have not given up their nationalities, nor the promises to the Fathers. Now you can INCLUDE gentiles as partakers with them in those promises and I will say amen, but you cannot replace Israel with the Church, as the Church is an extension of their program. Even Pauls illustration of the tree does not do that. Both in and out of the Church, they remain Israel, and the promises remain in effect for them that repent and believe the gospel. [/email]I have never said that the church replaced Israel. I am saying the church is a continuation of the true Israel of the OT, devoid of it's territorial and ethnic boundaries. The true Israel was never a simple matter of flesh and blood. It was always based on faith, "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Those who believe are God's children, those who do not believe are not.

The "law of commandments contained in ordinances" involves the covenants. The national promises were a part of the covenants, you cannot separate them and were always conditional upon obedience to God.



I have never said that nor do I believe that. If I step outside of the guidelines they provide I stand to be corrected. However much of what I am saying is already present in the OT.

"But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. (Ga 6:14-16).

You are correct, but it says much more than that. It equates the church with the Israel of God which is a death blow to dispensationalism.
3am

"You are correct, but it says much more than that. It equates the church with the Israel of God which is a death blow to dispensationalism."

Is it now? You have a real dilemma here because there many scriptures that state just the opposite. How do you reconcile?

Stephen,Thanks Stephen for the straight forward question. This is what I have been hoping for. Problem is that I am not sure I understand the question. It isn't clear to me what the "it" is. Are you asking if I am saying that the church is the Israel of God now? Then the answer I believe is yes. Paul was speaking in the present tense.

I presume that you are speaking about many scriptures that state the opposite of that. That the church is not the Israel of God. I am not aware of any such texts. Would like very much to see them.
Thanks again for the challenge.
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Adam was formed to "till the ground".....prepare the ground for the seeds of truth. Adam was the beginning of the tribes of Israel and from them would come our Saviour....The Truth, The Word. The tribes, offspring of Adam, were to plant that seed of truth in the field....the world.


The 12 tribes, before the Advent of Christ, took Father's Word forward but it was after His Advent that the work began in earnest. The ground had been prepared and was ready for the planting.


Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6.But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


As you know, the two houses, Judah and Israel, were and still are split. The disciples took the Word to the house of Israel who had been scattered by God and His ministry spread. (the present nation of Israel, established in 1948, is not the same as the house of Israel written of in the Bible)


The seeds began to sprout, grow and spread. The former rain (salvation and belief in Him) aided the germination, the latter rain (truth and understanding) brings forth the fruit. Without the latter rain the seedling may wither and die or if it happened to be more mature in His Word but without enough knowledge to get him through end times....it would blast on the vine = no fruit, no "first fruit" for Christ.


......Whirlwind

Actually, I was quoting scripture which you then call Devil Speak.

2Cor. 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Anyone can quote scripture ..... even the devil. The issue is the interpretation. You use this phrase consistantly for the purpose of discounting those who see the literal in the scriptures. Your motive is to open up the playing field for a vast array of alternative interpretations ..... even your own "other" gospel. Not only that, but you miss-quote. The meaning of the text is clear .... If one had to keep the letter of the law one would fail and eventually be destroyed. One who is saved by the Lord's grace and a belief in His ability and willingness to save them is the alternative. You also have this truth backwards in your false doctrine regarding perfection of the "super" Christian. Sounds like "devil speak" to me. You not only attempt to replace the Lord in Revelation 12 with your corporation ..... you also teach others that they can become perfect in the physical body while yet still sinners and in need of salvation.

That is not the only meaning.



Here is an example: Jesus tells them that He will destroy this temple and build it again in three days.

So off they marched in a huff, because they could only see and hear the letter. You know, He meant His body and that He will return after three days. But the people of the letter, stormed off into ignorance.

Jesus always spoke in parables, so if you were there at the time, and you believe as you do now, you would also have stormed off in a huff. Very much like you do now, when presented by the things of the spirit.

Mat 13:35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the foundation of the world.

Did Jesus ever say anything without a parable to the multitudes?

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; and without a parable spake he nothing unto them:

You can see in the spirit only through the Holy Spirit, all else will only be in the letter (as you read it) A temple will be of stone, the holy place will stay in that place of stone, Israel stays Israel, and Jerusalem, stays a city, the witnesses stays two old men in rags that spit fire, and the stars are angels. Heaven is just another place, and the throne of God is a huge chair in the sky.

It is a sad place to operate from, The only remedy is prayer and asking in sincerity that God will open our eyes so that we can see.

Ask yourselves: Why did Jesus so many times say : Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Do you think he was talking to blind and deaf people? I think not: He was speaking to those who looked past the letter.


C

Temples? There are buildings (brick and morter) described as such and there are the physical bodies of true believers which possess the Lord's Spirit and are a spiritual temple of the Lord. You say that the man of lawlessness (a corporate body of unbelievers) will sit in the temple of the Lord .... the body of the true believer? ..... and this arrangement would be impossible. Who is sitting in your temple (body)? You had better take inventory.

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and contrite heart-
These, O God, You will not despise." Psalm 51:17

Oh, that is easy to explain. I will use the following example:

We have the disciples as a "corporate body" of believers (They were the firstfruits also out of apostate Judaism) but (in type ) we see Judas in this "temple" (because we are also corporately the temple)

There you have him, now make him larger and larger and larger: Judas IS in fact sitting at this very moment , warming pews with the rest of God;s people. He is just many , many more , than one Judas.
He is also called a tare, or tares.
Well, the Lord in His wisdom breaks him up into further types, but this one will do for now,.

C

What a story. Give scriptures that describe the growth of Judas. Where is Judas in the Book of Revelation? Hint: read Revelation 20:11-15. The only place .... no story of his expansion experience. He is sleeping at present and one who will experience the second death upon his resurrection.

I must say, that I am truly amazed by your lack of insight.

May I ask you: Do you see the "Body of Christ" as a corporate group?

C

I do not consider your story about Judas to be "insight", but selective context picking foe supporting your corporate theology.

So you believe the Harlot is one bad lady?
C

A big one .... and exactly as described in detail in scripture. Your corporate theology is not defined in scripture as you say, and it is miss-applied at the same time. Your corporate "antichrist" ..... corporate "manchild" ..... etc. have no such definitions and in fact just the opposite is true of the Bible's description of the man of lawlessness and the Lord. Both defined in detail in many scriptures as being singular. Only one of each and not a mob of humans.

Wrong road indeed .... get a new horse, turn him around, and head back to the Bible quickly. The clock is ticking.

You are not answering my question: Is she one person or a corporate group?

Yes I call them the Church...unless wants to keep the division going through their PIOUS opinions, for they are more self-righteous than THEM

US AND THEM, it never stops...come LORD JESUS COME

I answered you question and you know what I mean. All of intransigent humanity is well defined in scripture. Your application of "corporate" is very deceptive and your chosen subjects are defined differently in scripture than you do. What you are doing is changing the scriptural definitions given in this case to your own ilk. Especially with the ones you have selected ..... very deceptive and anti-Biblical ..... corruption of bottom line truths. You replace the Lord with your corporate "christ" [the "manchild company"] and you do the same in regard to the man of lawlessness, the prince that shall come, the little horn, satan's beast of Revelation with some sort of corporate "antichrist" nonsense. Sounds like you are running a business of some kind.

If you get to Heaven before I dooooooooouuuuuuuuuuu
Coming fer to carry me home

a band of angels coming after youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
coming fer to carry me home

Swing low
Sweet Chariot
Comin fer to carry me home
Swing low
Sweet Chariot
Comin fer to carry me home...

yep even if I'm uneducated and have an accent. HEHE

He's a coming...Coming to set the Captives Free...PRAISE JESUS.

"He" is coming. He was caught up to God and to His throne .... but He is coming back for you. Praise the Lord !!! He is the one and only ..... the Lord Jesus Christ.

This got so long and I feel important, i made it a new topic.
Israel's purpose and mission
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"He" is unfortunately not Jesus when He went up to heaven in the Gospels: But "he" is Christ IN Us, because Jesus says to John:Rev 4:1 ..............Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Simple. and clear, if you just read what is there.

C

Your study of Revelation lacks the knowledge of the application of historical "reach backs" imputed [contained as part of] in many of the visions presented for future things. These are given to the reader for extended overview across a vast period of time on certain subjects. You are not going to learn this if you hang up on your superficial pre-conception that all of the text given refers only to the future time of the end. Your corporate mentors have you in free fall on this one.

It is true, temples are brick and mortar, the physical bodies of true believers but you forgot one, the third one.

Eph 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

1 Peter 2:5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

I now that you dont like this because you fussed me some time ago for writing it. But I am simply quoting Peter and Paul. They both refer to the church as a holy temple.

Now if the church is the temple of God, Cannot Paul's man of lawlessness set himself up in God's church, and do his dirty work there, as he attacks the church of God.
Many follow him.
Is it possible that is the great apostasy, the falling away?
After all, the primary concern of the NT is the church.

Incidentally, every place in the NT that refers to the temple of God is referring to the church or believers.
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