Where is Calvinism in Luke 15?
it's not in there
God wants to save every person.

Calvinism is wrong.

we reap what we have sown
but if Calvinism is true, we don't reap what we have sown.........we reap what God has sown, whether salvation or damnation.


in the parable of the 4 soils, which soil symbolizes Calvinism?..........none of them


Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
this does not say that God chose which people would get saved.........it says that those who gladly recieved the Word got saved.


Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
which are the saved, as per Calvinism?.........the just or the un-just?
Calvin said that God hates the non-Elect, yet the Bible says that God sends blessings and Mercy, sunshine and rain, to both the just and the un-just.









Luk 15:1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
Luk 15:2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
Luk 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Luk 15:9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Luk 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
Luk 15:12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
Luk 15:13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
Luk 15:15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
Luk 15:16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
Luk 15:17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
Luk 15:26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
Luk 15:27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
Luk 15:28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
Luk 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
Luk 15:30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
Luk 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

It is fact that armenianist doctrine and calvinist doctrine are opposed and cannot both be right, but they can both be wrong.

I don't know what Calvanism really is, but if it's teaching the same as this, then you can label God, Jesus, Paul, Me and the rest as Calvanists.
Read them all.
Take your time.
If you REALLY love the truth like you would claim, you will do this.

Luke 14
11 For every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 3:11
No one understands. No one searches for God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 11:27
All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 6:39
And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 9
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
9 For this is a word of promise, According to this season will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only so; but Rebecca also having conceived by one, even by our father Isaac––
11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel 4:25
that thou shalt be driven from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and thou shalt be made to eat grass as oxen, and shalt be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee; till thou know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 12:48
but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 10:11
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 10:13
for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 2:21
And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me may not abide in the darkness.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 11:26
and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 3:15
that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 4:14
but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 5:41
And whosoever shall compel thee to go one mile, go with him two.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.
7 What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 4
1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.

3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 2
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:––
4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:

7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:
8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

9 not of works, that no man should glory.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Peter 2
7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are an elect (chosen-same word in Greek) race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 22
10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me I came into Damascus.

12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well reported of by all the Jews that dwelt there,
13 came unto me, and standing by me said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And in that very hour I looked up on him.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath appointed thee to know his will, and to see the Righteous One, and to hear a voice from his mouth.
15 For thou shalt be a witness for him unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 13
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few chosen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Thessalonians 1
4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election (choosing),
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Peter 1
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure (to yourselves): for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark 13
20 And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 15
16 Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 15
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 1
26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;

28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 4
26 The kings of the earth set themselves in array, And the rulers were gathered together, Against the Lord, and against his Anointed:
27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,
28 to do whatsoever thy hand and thy council foreordained to come to pass.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 8
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 1
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 1
11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his [color=#FF0000]will
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 13
48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James 2
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren; did not God choose them that are poor as to the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to them that love him?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What shall we say then?
Is there unrighteousness with God?
God forbid.
Thou wilt say then unto me,
Why doth he still find fault?
For who withstandeth his will?
Nay but, O man,
who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why didst thou make me thus?

Thoughts...
Was John the Baptist not CHOSEN?
Were you not CHOSEN?
Did you CHOOSE GOD?
Who gets the credit for you believing in him?
YOU, or HIM?!
Dare you say you do before GOD?!
Say, God, I chose you! You did not choose me!
I hope you will not!
We were all destined for hell, except that God chose to keep some of us from going where we deserve. The others are hardened, to bring about his plan based on his will.
Our sins are our fault, but he chooses some of us out of our sin, to be conformed to the image of Christ.
For us to die, and for Christ to live in us.
This is grace.
It is not of YOU that WILLS or CHOOSES GOD, but of God who has mercy ON YOU.
Get it right before God.
You mere man.
Humble yourself before your creator.
Then, you will be exalted.

God bless you all,
Marc Stinebaugh

Forgot one...

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Can we draw ourselves to HIM?????

Of course not.

Does he draw ALL????

Of course not!

Otherwise he wouldn't say this at all!!!

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few chosen.

what does this verse mean?



Is God Partial?

Agreed. To Gzuz' post.

you said:
Who gets the credit for you believing in him?
YOU, or HIM?!


my thoughts:

Jesus told me to believe God.
Jesus never told Jesus (or God) to "believe God".

if i don't believe God, who will He blame and punish?..........me...... (not Jesus or God)

YES and they ARE both wrong. Calvinism to correct Catholicism is like killing a mosquito with a nuclear bomb. Armenianism sees the gross errors of Calvinism and tries to swing the pendulum back the other way to truth but the pendulum only swung back half way.

Another analogy is that there is a little piece of dirt in the bathwater so Calvinism throws out the bathwater AND the baby AND the bath as well. Armenianism says "Hang on we still need the bath".

Psalms 138
6 For though Jehovah is high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly; But the haughty he knoweth from afar.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 18
5 To respect the person of the wicked is not good, Nor to turn aside the righteous in judgment.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 24
23 These also are sayings of the wise. To have respect of persons in judgment is not good.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs 28
21 To have respect of persons is not good; Neither that a man should transgress for a piece of bread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 10
34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And for once, let's read this passage IN CONTEXT...

The word in question...

4382 prosopolepsia

from 4381

1) respect of persons
2) partiality
2a) the fault of one who when called on to give judgment has respect of the outward circumstances of man and not to their intrinsic merits, and so prefers, as the more worthy, one who is rich, high born, or powerful, to another who does not have these qualities

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 2
1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.

3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:

7 to them that by patience in well–doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,

9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:

11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;

15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Colossians 3
25 For he that doeth wrong shall receive again for the wrong that he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James 2
1 My brethren, hold not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come into your synagogue a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, and there come in also a poor man in vile clothing;
3 and ye have regard to him that weareth the fine clothing, and say, Sit thou here in a good place; and ye say to the poor man, Stand thou there, or sit under my footstool;
4 do ye not make distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren; did not God choose them that are poor as to the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you, and themselves drag you before the judgment–seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme the honorable name by which ye are called?
8 Howbeit if ye fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:
9 but if ye have respect of persons, ye commit sin, being convicted by the law as transgressors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Peter 1
15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;
16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:
18 knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers;
19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:
20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,
21 who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 5
45 that ye may be sons of your Father who is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,

A chooser of persons, yes. He says He is.
A respecter of persons, no, He says He is not.

Romans 9
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.

Is God partial in choosing???
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the same as saying God is partial in choosing those that believe in Him versus those who don't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So who is God to say that if all have sinned, just because they believed, trusted, obeyed, repented, etc. that their faith could be Romans 4:9 ...reckoned for righteousness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who is this that darkeneth counsel By words without knowledge?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who put wisdom in the heart or gave understanding to the mind?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Will the person who finds fault with the Almighty correct him? Will the person who argues with God answer him?
-Brace yourself like a man!
-I will ask you, and you will teach me.
-Would you undo my justice?
-Would you condemn me so that you can be righteous?
-Do you have power like God’s?
-Can you thunder with a voice like his?
-Then dress yourself in majesty and dignity.
-Clothe yourself in splendor and glory.
-Unleash your outbursts of anger.
-Look at all who are arrogant, and put them down.
-Look at all who are arrogant, and humble them.
-Crush wicked people wherever they are.
-Hide them completely in the dust, and cover their faces in the hidden place.
-Then even I will praise you because your right hand can save you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
-For it is written, He that taketh the wise in their craftiness:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-What shall we say then?
-Is there unrighteousness with God?
-God forbid.
-For he saith to Moses,
-I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
-and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
-Thou wilt say then unto me,
-Why doth he still find fault?
-For who withstandeth his will?
-Nay but, O man,
-who art thou that repliest against God?
-Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
-Why didst thou make me thus?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proverbs 2
1 My son, if you take my words to heart and treasure my commands within you,
2 if you pay close attention to wisdom, and let your mind reach for understanding,
3 if indeed you call out for insight, if you ask aloud for understanding,
4 if you search for wisdom as if it were money and hunt for it as if it were hidden treasure,
5 then you will understand the fear of the LORD and you will find the knowledge of God.
6 The LORD gives wisdom. From his mouth come knowledge and understanding.
7 He has reserved priceless wisdom for decent people. He is a shield for those who walk in integrity
8 in order to guard those on paths of justice and to watch over the way of his godly ones.
9 Then you will understand what is right and just and fair–– every good course in life.
10 Wisdom will come into your heart. Knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.
11 Foresight will protect you. Understanding will guard you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James 1
5 But if any of you lacketh wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 3
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man thinketh that he is wise among you in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Corinthians 3
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Will you read this??????
Please do...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Introduction

The electing and rejecting God is Supreme. Such is the plain teaching of Scripture. To deny the sovereign character of elective grace is to deny that God is God. It is to maintain that of the two, God and man, man is the stronger, and thus the factor that shapes God's choice. This is indeed the lie that constitutes the premise, the supporting pillar, of the average sermon to which our church-going public is made to listen. I realized that the phraseology of which I avail myself in defining the lie with which the modern Evangelical discourse is fraught, may be strange to you. The apostles of a dethroned God and an enthroned sinner would perhaps recoil from declaring that man is able to defeat the purposes of God. They rather speak of a God who loves and wills to save all men (head for head), of a Christ who died for all, and of a (depraved) sinner who can believe if he will. But know that, though God is supposed to will to save all men, many perish, so that the eternal death of an unrepentant sinner spells defeat for the Almighty. To say, therefore, that God indiscriminately wills to save all, is to dethrone God. To maintain that the natural man, destitute of regeneration (such is indeed the implication), can will to believe, is to seat him on a throne, left vacant, as was said, by a dethroned God.

Once more, to deny the sovereign character of elective grace is to deny that God is God. Yet many do deny it. The sad fact is that the doctrine of a sovereign election and reprobation is to many a dreaded doctrine. The number of the divines in the Christian Church who will consistently champion it, is comparatively small. Many openly decry the conception of a God, who has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and hardeneth whom He wills, as the product of a diseased brain and, when pressed, begin to prate of an election reposing upon foreseen faith. Others of a more Reformed persuasion prefer to keep silence about the matter altogether, which they do, except on rare occasions when custom compels them to bring it up. But even then this truth must be neutralized by some such nefarious admixture as "a general well-meaning offer of grace."

Scripture is most outspoken respecting the matter of election and reprobation. This no one acquainted with the contents of Holy Writ will deny, ever has denied. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world..." (Eph. 1:4). "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father..." (1 Peter 1:2). Verily, the doctrine of election runs like a seam of gold through the entire Word. It is the main pillar upon which the truth-structure, reared by the prophets and the apostles, reposes. It is so interwoven with the texture of every other truth of the Christian religion, that to preach any of these is to preach election. There is nothing cold about this doctrine. Election spells divine love, mercy, compassion, wisdom, power, justice, holiness. God in infinite mercy, taking an ill-deserving sinner included in Christ Jesus, to His bosom, to be to Him a close companion forever -- this is election.

Whereas, as far as I am aware, it is freely admitted that Scripture in unmistakable speech teaches a divine election and reprobation, the issue is not: Does Holy Writ teach election, but rather: What is the character of the selective process? Is it supreme and sovereign, or bound and imprisoned by the will of man? We affirm on the basis of Scripture that the divine choice must be as sovereign as God Himself. And He is absolutely sovereign. High is He above all nations, exalted far above all gods. What may be the secret of His supremacy? He is God, infinite in might, the almighty Creator of the earth and the fullness thereof. He appears in Scripture as the Creator of the saint and as the sole source of his salvation. Also of sin, He is the supreme necessity. He forms the light, and creates darkness; makes peace and creates evil (Is. 45:7). Verily, the joint testimony of Scripture that God is supreme is overwhelming. The burden of the joint message of all the prophets and the apostles is: God is supreme. He is God. What then must be the truth about His choice, His elective grace? As God, this choice is, must be, supreme. This is the proposition to the defense of which we arise in this pamphlet.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proven From Scripture

What we will now prove from Scripture is that God's choice, selection, is sovereign, that is, not bound, tied down and held in bondage by man. What may be meant by a supreme, in distinction from bound choice? Let us illustrate. The matter is simple enough. A merchant is in need of an able clerk. He advertises, and shortly two men, "A" and "B" apply. The merchant fixes his gaze first upon the one and then upon the other; and the thought rises in his soul, "A" strongly appeals to me. Him will I select, providing he possesses the necessary fitness. A brief interview, however, convinces him that the fit man is not "A" but "B." "B" therefore is taken and "A" dismissed. A bound choice; bound because shaped and influenced by a circumstance (the fitness of the applicants) which the merchant did not create, but before which he is compelled to bow and take cognizance of, a circumstance, therefore, that constitutes the factor that determined the choice. On the other hand, if the merchant, capable of making of a man what he wills, could choose without considering what the applicants within themselves are, his choice, determined solely by factors within himself, would be free and sovereign. From the very nature of things, however, man's choice is always bound. He cannot move mountains; hence he chooses the path that leads him past them. He decides to cross the ocean in a ship because the opposite shore can be reached in no other way. His choice to go his way alone is shaped by the refusal of the friend to set out in company with him. Forsooth, the field in which man's will can operate is exceedingly small.

However, as the choice, selection, of a God who made heaven and earth, moves mountains, dries up seas, creates evil, turns men's hearts, is the source of anything of goodness in man -- this choice, elective love, of God is supreme. Nowhere is this more plainly taught than in the ninth chapter of Paul's epistle to the Romans. Attend to the argument of the verses ten to fourteen: "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him that calleth; it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." This passage asserts, mark you, that God loved Jacob before he had done any good, so that the supreme cause of the divine choice as it devolved upon the younger child was not the good works, which he, as a historical phenomenon, performed; but the will, the good pleasure, of the Almighty God. And this is the same as saying that He chose Jacob with a view to creating in him life, goodness, and power. For, not of works but of Him that calleth, that the purpose of God according to election might stand. Forsooth, God's choice is supreme. The sole factor that determines it, is found within Him. He has mercy upon whom He will.

Deny the sovereignty of the divine choice, say that a sinner of himself believes, can believe if he but will, and cannot be made to believe, if he will not; and you brush aside with one sweep the entire mass of testimony of Scripture that God is God, and set man on a throne left vacant by a dethroned God. For if the spiritual Israel, as to its hallowed energies and power (its faith, hope, love, and good works) is not of God, is not the creation of His almighty will; He is not Israel's Maker, exalted and almighty Father, King and Savior. To say, therefore, that there is something of goodness in man that is not of God, not the creation of His will -- some power, however infinitesimal, to appropriate the Christ and the blessings of the kingdom, to take hold of the life-line thrown out, some power to utter a single faint cry for mercy -- is to strip Him of His infinite might, yea of all His glories, and draw Him down to the level of the creature to be trodden under foot of man. Consider that man is by nature dead in trespasses and sin, and thus destitute of spiritual life and power. How, then, can He believe, will to believe, of himself?

As to Esau, God hated him before he had done any evil so that the supreme reason of the divine rejection as it devolved upon the older child was not his corruption, the evil works he as a historical phenomenon performed, but the will, the good pleasure, of God. For reasons within Himself the Almighty resolved to reject and to harden the historical Esau. "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will he hardeneth." (Rom. 9: 18). Consider that if Esau's total depravity was the supreme reason that compelled God to reject him, the Almighty would have been forced to reject Jacob as well, for he by nature was as depraved as his reprobated brother. This shows that the supreme reason of Esau's rejection was not his wickedness, but the sovereign will of God.

Know well that to rebel against the reasoning of the above-cited Scripture, is to be compelled to embrace the sickening lie that the supreme reason of the divine rejection of the sinner, is the latter's wickedness -- his persistent refusal to give ear to the pleading of a God who would save but cannot and therefore finally resolves, contrary to His inmost desire, to punish the incorrigible culprit with eternal death. And this is equal to saying that the attempt of the Almighty to save ends in dismal failure as often as a sinner perishes. But let me ask: Is God's will bound? Does the unwillingness of the sinner to be saved spell defeat for the Almighty? Does the iron wall of man's opposition stay the Lord? Is His resolve to save a man shattered upon the rock of man's stinking pride, arrogance, and contempt? Don't say that I speak too disparagingly of man. He is a creature with a stiff neck, with a heart of stone, with a mouth full of dreadful curses, with a tongue under which lurks the poison of asps, with a throat that is an open sepulcher, with feet swift to shed blood, with a mind imagining vain things. In a word, he is a creature incapable of saving good and inclined to all evil. Dead is he in trespasses and sin. Does the stony heart of this man constitute the rock that resists the hammer-blows of God's grace, the rock with which His will collides and is dashed to fragments? Nay, my friend, there is no such rock. The stony heart of man defeat God -- Him who measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, meted out heaven with a span, comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in balance; Him before Whom the nations are nothing; Him, the incomparable God, Who bringeth the princes to nothing and maketh the judges of the earth as nothing? (Is. 40). This God overruled by the will of man, receding when man advances, proceeding only when man deigns to let him pass? Nay, it cannot be. How preposterous the very idea! No heart so hard that He cannot break. No will so stubborn that He cannot bend. No sinner so dead that He cannot revive. No sinner so proud that He cannot debase. No heart so filthy that He cannot cleanse. No sinner so lost that He cannot save. No sinner sunken so low that He could not raise up and set in heaven with Christ. However, He hath mercy upon whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. The one believes, repents, and cries for mercy, because God so wills. And another resists, hardens his heart, says no to the Almighty, and perishes in his sins, because He so wills. The electing and rejecting God is supreme. Will any true lover of God care to maintain the contrary? Again I say that I cannot conceive of him doing so.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The First Objection Weighed

It is said, that the doctrine that God, according to His own purpose and for a reason in Himself, to wit, His own good pleasure, chooses one and rejects another, is inconsistent with divine justice. The apostle dealt with this objection. That he did so proves conclusively that the views we champion are actually his. Otherwise it could never be explained why he should raise and remove the aforesaid objection immediately upon having quoted from the discourse of the prophet Malachi the words, "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated." (Rom. 9:13). "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" (Rom. 9:14) is the question the apostle now puts forth. And his answer: "God forbid. For He said to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion . . . . For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." Both passages are from the book of Exodus (9:16; 33:11). The purpose of the apostle is obvious. He sweeps away the objection by showing that Scripture and thus God Himself unmistakably declares that He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy and hardeneth whom he will unto His glory. What God actually does -- does unto His everlasting glory (such is the implication) -- is, must be, just. So, then, what the apostle would bind upon our hearts is that, whereas God (according to His own purpose, for a reason in Himself, and with a view to Himself) actually chooses one and rejects and hardens another -- this doing of His is, must be, just. Let this sink deep into your heart, my reader. God's works (including the rejection and hardening of the sinner) are truth and verity; they being performed by Him for a reason in Himself, according to His purpose, and with a view to Himself, to the enhancement of His name, with an eye singled to His glory, with Himself before His eye as the ultimate goal. Consider that He is the highest good, a Being wise and just, the inclusion of all that is good and lovely. Hence, any work of His that has not Himself as its supreme cause and goal falls short of Himself and is vile. Because God ends in Himself, He is the just and the holy God. Such is the reply of the apostle to the objection that sovereign rejection involves God in an unfair treatment especially of those whom He wills to reject and harden. The apostle's reply does not satisfy you? So, then, it is not enough for you, to know that -- whereas it is actually the way of God to have mercy on whom he will have mercy and to harden whom He will -- Paul's doctrine of a sovereign election and rejection is, must be, consistent with divine justice? Consider that what you set aside is God's very own appraisal of His doings, yea, of Himself. You dare say to God that His appraisal of Himself is wrong? You, finite creature of the dust, dare to sit in judgment over God?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Second Objection Weighed

The Objection
Another objection raised against sovereign elective grace is that it is incompatible with human responsibility. This grievance, too, was advanced by the enemy of the truth who rose before the eye of the apostle. It again shows that the doctrine of the preceding verses is: God chooses one and rejects another because He wills. The form in which the apostle has the objector cast his complaint is: "Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will?" (Rom. 9:19). The reasoning here is plain: If it be true that the destiny of man is in the almighty hand of God; if it is not of him who willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy; if one believes because God saves him; if another remains impenitent because God hardens him, and is lost because God fits him for destruction; if man's state and destiny depend on God alone -- how can He find fault, that is, how can He blame man and hold him responsible? For who can resist His will? Observe that the objection is precisely the one being urged against our doctrine of the character of the elective grace of God. Let this set you to thinking. It shows that we are in exceedingly good company, in the company of no one less than Paul.

"Who hath resisted His will?" The objector then has grasped the force and implication of the apostle's reasoning. The question is, however, whether the doctrine of the preceding verses yields this conclusion. And the answer: In the mouth of the objector, the complaint, "No one can resist His will" is vile slander. What the objector means to say is that the reprobated sinner is hardened irrespective of what he can do about it, is hardened therefore against his own good will and better self. If God would only withdraw and permit this better self to assert itself, the hardened one would obey and not rebel. The sinner, according to the reasoning of the objector, is being compelled to say no to the Almighty, though he would say yes. Hence, God cannot find fault. What has the apostle to say to this? Nothing directly. He could have replied: Thou, O man, canst not resist God's will in the sense that thou, being hardened by God, canst will to do nothing else but harden thyself and say no to Him. Thy will is only evil as thyself. With thy whole being, with all the power that is thine, dost thou pitch thyself against God. He, therefore, finds fault with thee, holds thee accountable. For thy rebellion is wanton, willful, unrestrained, unfettered.

Verily, though hardened, man is the subject of his rebellion, and behaves in agreement with his nature. With such amazing freedom does he sin, so far is he from being able to detect the power of the Almighty over and in him as something foreign to himself, that he denies the existence of God. Ask a man who persists in his unbelief why he continues to say no to the Lord, and his answer will not be: God hardens me, but, I will not believe, I hate God and refuse to come to His service.

That the apostle knew how to meet the aforesaid objection is evident from the following passage taken from the first section of his epistle: "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." (Rom. 1:32-2:1). So then, the express declaration of Scripture is that the rejected sinner, though hardened and fitted for destruction by God, is nevertheless inexcusable, and is thus being held accountable for his moral state. Though hardened by God, man sins as a free moral agent. If you ask, How can this be? I must reply that I know not. What Scripture here presents is no contradiction but a mystery, which for this reason defies our powers of penetration. Deny either that man is at fault, or that God hardens him, and the mystery vanishes into thin air. The exponents of the theory of a well-meaning offer of salvation to all men, of the theory that God wills to save all, that Christ died for all, of the theory that a sinner of himself can believe -- I say, the exponents of these various theories have no mystery.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Reply
"How can He find fault. For who hath resisted His will?" Let us now attend to the apostle's reply to this question. Consider, that the question is rhetorical and may therefore be converted into a positive statement thus: God cannot find fault, for no one can resist His will. The opponent feels certain that the objection he now raises compels the apostle to concede that his doctrine is inconsistent with human accountability and therefore shall have to be relinquished. But the apostle is not to be silenced. In replying, however, he purposely refrains from caviling with his opponent about the matter of human responsibility, for the reason that all such complaints rise not from sincere perplexity, not from an earnest desire to know the truth about the matter, but from a stinking pride that dares to cavil with God and challenge His claim upon His moral creatures. Grievances they are that spring from a sinful unwillingness to believe that with God there can be no unrighteousness; from a vile stubbornness, that against better knowledge, refuses to concede that, whereas God is God and man His creature, a thing formed, God can do with man according as He wills. The apostle, therefore, frames a retort designed to rebuke the opponent's stinking pride and to expose the blasphemous root-thought from which the complaint springs (read Romans 9:20-23) -- the root-thought, namely, that God hath no right to do with His moral creatures as He pleases. Essentially this complaint is like unto the one first raised: "Is there unrighteousness with God?" Attend now to the apostle's reply: "Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Rom. 9:20). It is to be noticed that the apostle here judges the opponent out of his own mouth. The opponent had thought to overturn the apostle's doctrine by the complaint, "Who can resist His will?" Just so, such is the force of the apostle's reply, in the right sense (not in the sense in which the opponent meant it), no one can resist His will. When He hardens, the sinner can will to do nothing else but harden himself. Hence, thou, O man, art but clay in the hands of God. Being clay, it behooves thee to hold thy peace.

"Who art thou that repliest against God..." Let every opponent of Paul's doctrine seriously ask himself this question. Let him ask, who am I that dare to set my mouth against Heaven and say, There is unrighteousness with God? Who am I that dare to challenge God's claim upon His moral creatures? Who am I that have the vile courage to call God to account? Indeed, who art thou, O man? Consider for a moment who thou art: a vile lump of clay by thyself, impotent, lifeless, without power to make anything of thyself at all, either a vessel unto honor, or a vessel unto dishonor. Consider, that thou canst not as much as harden thyself except the Almighty hardens thee. In God thou dost live, move, and have thy being (Acts 17:28). Thou art creature, the issue of His will. Even as a vile sinner thou dost come forth out of the womb of divine providence. In a word, by thyself, thou art clay. Thy caviling with God, how utterly preposterous! It behooves thee to hold thy peace and to extol the adorable sovereignty of thy Maker. For thou art clay. Yet thou openest thy mouth, thou a vile lump of clay, to criticize God, to accuse Him of unrighteousness, to challenge His claim upon thee, to say to Him, Why hast thou made me thus? Unbelievable! O man, thou art clay. Tell me, asks the apostle, hath not the potter power, that is, right over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? O man, have you ever heard of anyone challenging the right of the potter over the clay? Would it not, among men, be considered the height of the absurd for anyone to deny that the potter has this right? And would it not be considered the height of folly and arrogance for the dishonorable vessel, a mere lump of clay, to say to the potter, "Why hast thou made me thus?" And yet, O man, thou repliest against God, sayest to him, "Why hast thou made me thus?"

What, then, is God's very own answer to him who challenges His right over His moral creatures and insists that with Him there is unrighteousness because He exercises His divine prerogatives over man as his sovereign Maker? It is this: Consider, O man, that with me there can be no unrighteousness as I am holy God. Consider, further, that I am thy sovereign Creator and therefore have a right to do with thee according to My will. Therefore, be still and bow before the sovereignty of thy Maker. Humble thyself under My mighty hand. Extol My sovereignty, My glories, as thou beholdest them in the face of My Son, Christ Jesus. Doing so, thou hast within thyself the evidence that thou art a vessel of mercy prepared unto glory.

O man, will you continue to denounce the adorable God because you cannot reconcile His perfect doings with your corrupt conceptions of what is right and proper for Him to do? Not satisfied with God as He is, you try to improve upon Him. Improve upon God and you get a monstrosity.

So then, He hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. It means that the relation He sustains to sin is causal. He hardens first, and as a result the sinner hardens himself. The exponents of the theory of the free will of man reverse this. Man first hardens himself and as a result God hardens him. The very fact, however, that the apostle insists that God may do with His moral creatures as He pleases proves that His hardening the sinner is the cause of the sinner hardening himself. The heart of the entire argument of the apostle is that the relation God sustains to sin is causal, active, progressive, and not, as is commonly held, passive, permissive, receding. What is meant is not an abandonment of man to a reprobate mind, a withdrawing of the restraining influences of His Holy Spirit, a giving up to the uncounteracted operations of surrounding hardening or perverting influences, but a positive giving up of the sinner to sin through the wickedness of his own heart. Deny this and you overturn the entire argument of the apostle that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

Having brought to the fore and removed the chief objections raised against the God of sovereign mercy and of sovereign wrath, let us now face the question: What may be the real reason for the rejection of this God? And the answer: the very fact that He is supreme, selects one and rejects another because He wills, for reasons in Himself, according to His purpose and unto His supreme and everlasting glory. A God so absolutely sovereign, the vile sinner cannot tolerate. So he fabricates himself a God. But what is this God other than an idol that can be taken up, stationed in a corner and stay put; a figurehead, if you will, trained to take orders; an ornament; a deified extension of man himself; a God who will talk along with man and say that He selects one and rejects another for reasons in the creature (man's virtue, faith, or unbelief that defies even the power of God). Such a God man makes for himself, a God who selects or rejects according as man wills and unto man's supreme glory. The apostles of a dethroned God have no objection to God casting a man into hell, if only it be conceded that the supreme reason for Him doing so, is the sinner, his stubborn will. Even in hell the lost one can then glory in himself, shake his fist in the face of God and with the proud Stoic of old say, My will even thou canst not overpower. It is noteworthy that the modern revivalist preaches hell and damnation with a strange ferocity. They preach a Christ, too, a Christ, however, who completes the task of housecleaning begun by man.

Pelagianism represents an attempt to improve upon the "hard" God of Scripture. Improve upon this God and you get a monstrosity. The men of whom Paul in his epistle to the Romans wrote tried it. But their improvement turned out to be a corruptible man, a bird, a four-footed beast, a creeping thing. Let us quote the passage: "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things." (Rom. 1:23). Does any one suppose that the race of today could do any better than those heathen? Not at all. The made-over God of the Pelagian, that God who wills to save all men head for head but cannot, is a monstrosity. This is plain enough. Consider that according to the apostles of a dethroned God, the supreme reason for a sinner believing is the sinner himself, his supreme will. It means that God cannot save unto His supreme glory. His redemptive labors, therefore, being works that fall short of Himself, must be denominated sin. And a God whose works are sin, is darkness. Further, the God of the apostles of a free will must destroy the wicked because of an inherent impotence to bring them to repentance, so that the perishing of the wicked spells his defeat. In a word, to deny that the electing and rejecting God is supreme is to change the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible, vile, and impotent man. Improve upon the God of Scripture and you get a monstrosity.

Finally, if the electing and rejecting God is not supreme, a man's salvation depends upon his own capricious will. Though believing today, the assurance is lacking to him that he will still be cleaving unto Christ on the morrow. Even with the gates of heaven within sight, he may still plunge back into hell. The theory we expose, it is plain, renders everything uncertain. It is a theory that genders not peace but anxiety, not joy but grief, not hope but despair, not humbleness but stinking pride. How different the disposition of a man who firmly believes that the electing and rejecting God is supreme, the creative cause of his salvation, his Almighty Redeemer, Who loves him because He wills, for a reason in Himself. This man has rest for he rests in God.

Man by himself is nothing. God is all. He is supreme. His power is infinite. He saves to the uttermost a vile sinner, by himself hopelessly lost, whose only hope therefore is God. Knowing himself as claimed by a God of sovereign mercy, the redeemed one has peace and joy unspeakable, and he glories in the cross and will glory in God forever more.

Because He is supreme God, John the apostle hears every creature which is in heaven and in the earth and such as are in the sea and all that are in them saying, "Blessing and honor and glory and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever." (Rev. 5:13).

Preach sovereign election and rejection in and out of season, and the flock you pastor will soon be crying out the praises of God. Keep silence about this truth, and the praises of God will soon die on your own lips and on the lips of the sheep over which you have been set.

GZUZ, thank you, this is an amazing study. I am going to take my time and read through all of it. It is all Word based. Great job bro.

Cornelius

This is profound and true.

When I read this, I am again in awe about God's grace towards me. I am so aware that things might just as easily have been different for me.
There are actually no words of thanks that I can offer. All words pale in the face of what He has done for me.

C

Calvin's God is Partial.

the Bible says that God is not Partial.

Calvin wanted to avoid Personal Responsibility for his own choices, so he invented Calvinism .

With Calvinism, if Calvin ended up in Hell, Calvin could say "it's not my fault, God is Partial, and God didn't choose me".

Calvinism is a fraud...........it (allegedly) releases the individual of any responsibilty for his thoughts, words, and deeds.

Dennis,
did you read anything previously posted?

what about the times when, a Christian does not believe perfectly, behave perfectly, obey perfectly, love perfectly, worship perfectly, etc.............these imperfections are not the WILL OF GOD..........
GOD SAID "BE YE THEREFORE PERFECT!"

so, the Christian's imperfections violate GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY.


No!
the Truth is: God is Sovereign, no matter what we do, whether we reject Him , or Love Him.

Calvinism is a fraud.

Can you please explain the way all of the scriptures are meant otherwise?
It would help us to understand, since you have gained such a greater understanding than we have.
You could be a blessing in disguise to us all Dennis.
Would you please expound on this understanding for us?
Thank you, God bless you,
Marc

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!


God wanted to save Jerusalem, but she was not willing to be saved.

Jerusalem violated God's SOVEREIGNTY!
and she dethroned God!


NO!
The Truth is:
God is Sovereign regardless of what we do.

When Cain refused to do what is right, God's Sovereignty was left un-harmed.

Cain would have been accepted, IF HE HAD DONE RIGHT.

God will do right, regardless of our behavior.

He does not predestine anyone to salvation or damnation.

I believe that this is what God has taught me regarding himself through his Word and personal experience, but if you can show me how it is otherwise, I would gladly give up my faulty beliefs.

Can you prove in the Word that God does not predestinate anyone to salvation or damnation?
Beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Using all the previously used scriptures?
Please do, I am very interested to hear.

Salvation is a two-way street.

I must choose Him.
He must choose me.
Both are right.

if i choose Gzuz to be my friend, but he does not choose me to be his friend,.....then, we're NOT friends........it takes 2 to make a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP.

if i choose Christ, but He does not choose me, then, we have no PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP, and i'm not saved from my sins.

if God sees that my faith and repentance is in-sincere (defective) , then He rejects me.

if i find God to be un-attractive, then i reject Him.........and i'm not saved.

God does not force anyone to be saved or damned.

God is not willing that any person should perish, but that all recieve everlasting life...........but, He's not going to force us to be saved.

If He forces us to Love Him, then, that's NOT Love.........Love must be voluntary and free-will.

Love that is forced is not love at all.




God treats us as if we are gods (sort of)...........He respects our sovereignty,.............but if we reject love and righteousness, He gives us a GOD-SIZED (HUGE) PUNISHMENT.

if we choose His love and righteousness, He gives us a HUGE GOD-SIZED GIFT (LIFE, JESUS, SAINTS, HEAVEN).

God treats us as if we are adults (not minor children who are not responsible for our thoughts, words, and deeds)

So are you saying that God NEVER overrides a persons free will?
As if man by free will would choose God anyways. Never.
Romans 3:11 ...There is none that seeketh after God;

And if he does, then you ask, well who can resist God's will?
The answer being no one.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me,...For who withstandeth his will?

Then you may ask, then how does he find fault with anyone?
Because you were headed for damnation anyways.
Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault?

Then you may ask, Is God unfair, is there unrighteousness with God?
No.
Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.
18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

But why would he do that?
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,
8:28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And this is why he can say this...
Romans 8:31 ... If God is for us, who is against us?

This was addressed by Paul.

you said:

As to Esau, God hated him before he had done any evil


my thoughts:

that's not true.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here, God was quoting MALACHI 1;2,3.............GOD was speaking of the nations (ISRAEL AND EDOM),,,,,,not the individual men (Jacob and Esau)

God foresaw that Esau and the nation Edom would be wicked and profane.
God foresaw that Jacob/Israel would, in his old age, become a believer,,,,,,,,,,and that a REMNANT out of the nation ISRAEL would be believers.

if God arbitrarily hates one person , and loves the other (all other things being equal), then that makes God PARTIAL.

CALVINISM is a slander against God's good character.

WHAT LOVE IS THIS?.............if God randomly and flippantly chooses a Few, and hates the Many?

Calvin's God is not love,,,,,,,,,,,He is more hate than love.

You tried to quote a piece of this.
Let's look at it in context.
Then with verses I used a long time ago.

2 Peter 3
1 This is now, beloved, the second epistle that I write unto you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by putting you in remembrance;
2 that ye should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of the Lord and Saviour through your apostles:
3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts,
4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God;
6 by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

John 6
44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 17
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:

Sure about that?

Romans 9
9 For example, this is what the promise said, "I will come back at the right time, and Sarah will have a son."
10 The same thing happened to Rebekah. Rebekah became pregnant by our ancestor Isaac.
11 Before the children had been born or had done anything good or bad, Rebekah was told that the older child would serve the younger one. This was said to Rebekah so that God’s plan would remain a matter of his choice,
12 a choice based on God’s call and not on anything people do.
13 The Scriptures say, "I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau."
14 What can we say––that God is unfair? That’s unthinkable!
15 For example, God said to Moses, "I will be kind to anyone I want to. I will be merciful to anyone I want to."

James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall exalt you.
1 Peter 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time;

This is a promise for you Dennis.

Job 23:13 "But God is one of a kind. Who can make him change his mind? He does whatever he wants!

Gen 25:20 And Isaac was forty years old when he took Rebekah to wife, the daughter of Bethuel the Syrian of Padanaram, the sister to Laban the Syrian.
Gen 25:21 And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Gen 25:24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
Gen 25:25 And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau.



verse 23..............2 nations are in the womb
God was speaking of the 2 NATIONS, NOT THE 2 MEN

God FORESAW that Jacob would, eventually, in his old age, become a believer............so the LINE OF PROMISES went through jacob, not esau.

God FORESAW that Esau would be profane and un-believing, so God rejected Esau


FORESEEING a person's future.........does NOT mean that God Chose that person for salvation or damnation.


Predestination is never to salvation or damnation..............it is to a specific job, function, service, blessing which accompanies salvation, etc


Love is always, by definition, by FREE-WILL. .............(NOT BY FORCE)


It's impossible for God to force anyone to love or hate...............Not even God can do that.

Love, by definition , is by free-will.

God wants to love, and be loved..................and He wants us to be LIKE HIM.

Ezra 6:22 So for seven days they celebrated the Festival of Unleavened Bread because the LORD had made them joyful. The LORD had made the king of Assyria change his mind so that he supported the people in their work on the temple of God, the God of Israel.

Jeremiah 32:17 ‘Almighty LORD, you made heaven and earth by your great strength and powerful arm. Nothing is too hard for you.

Jeremiah 32:27 "I am the LORD God of all humanity. Nothing is too hard for me.

in Proverbs , it says God turns the thoughts of the King left or right, like turning a stream of water.

True,..........but God does not force a King's (or anyone's) thoughts to salvation or damnation.

Isaiah 46:11
... yea, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Job 23:13
"But God is one of a kind. Who can make him change his mind? He does whatever he wants!

Psalms 115:3
Our God is in heaven. He does whatever he wants.

Psalms 135:6
The LORD does whatever he wants in heaven or on earth, on the seas or in all the depths of the oceans.

Romans 9:21
A potter has the right to do whatever he wants with his clay. He can make something for a special occasion or something for everyday use from the same lump of clay.

Can you please explain Romans 9 then for me. Just once.

So far you have admitted that God can override free will. Good. But why not to damnation? He will hold them accountable for what they've done wrong that he made them do, why not unto damnation?

They are going there anyways! What's wrong with him sending them there if it suits his purposes?!?!?!?!?!

when a person sins, or is an un-believer, God doesn't blame Himself,,,,,,,,,,He blames the person

God didn't give Paul, the power to FORCE people to believe............God told paul to PERSUADE people, WITH THE FOOLISHNESS OF PREACHING.

which proves that we believe, not by force, but by free-will

But WHY did he do that again?

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
29 that no flesh should glory before God.

it never suits His purposes to send any person to hell,,,,,,,,,,,,,He wants to save all people.

God gave the early Church the TONGUES GIFT (SPEAKING IN TONGUES) , which is the great SIGN that THIS GOSPEL IS GOING GLOBAL (not just for israel only)

not one nation, or language is left out.........
not one person or family is rejected
not one tribe is un-wanted.
ALL tongues (languages) are wanted in Heaven

God wants ALL to be saved.

If what you are saying is true...WE SHOULD BE PERSUADING PEOPLE...arguing them into the kingdom!

But, Paul said...

1 Corinthians 1:17 Christ didn’t send me to baptize. Instead, he sent me to spread the Good News. I didn’t use intellectual arguments. That would have made the cross of Christ lose its meaning.

1 Corinthians 2:4 I didn’t speak my message with persuasive intellectual arguments. I spoke my message with a show of spiritual power

1 Corinthians 2:13 We don’t speak about these things using teachings that are based on intellectual arguments like people do. Instead, we use the Spirit’s teachings. We explain spiritual things to those who have the Spirit.

So because he gave the gift of tongues (Which I speak in tongues as well. Not just the "early church".) then that means that every single person on the earth could go to heaven. All we have to do is convince them. Is that basically what you are saying? Or should we let God change their heart, which he HAS to do.

Romans 3:11 No one understands. No one searches for God.

Romans 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.

Acts 11:18
And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

Granted here means GIVE! Like a GIFT!

Ephesians 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

paul wants the jews to be saved.


Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


many of the jews did not believe, and they died in their sins.
even though israel is the ELECT CHOSEN NATION


ishamel, the first born, was rejected, because he was profane
God foreknew that issac would, eventually become a believer, by free-will

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

God did not choose the elder,,,,,,,,,God looks on the heart,,,,,,,,,,,,God foreknew that Jacob would, eventually become a believer, by free will



this is quoted from Malachi.........God chose the nation Israel over edom

God foresaw that edom would be profane, by free-will
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.



Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.


edom cannot say that God was unfair

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Pharoah was a GREAT SINNER ( a slave-master) BEFORE God hardened his heart.

God needed a TREMENDOUS STORY TO educate the world about righteousness, evil, love, israel, god, etc..........
so, God wanted to make a GREAT display of judgement ,
so, God had to harden Pharoah's heart , so that pahraoh could withstand the TERROR of the 10 plagues,
if god had not hardened pharoah's heart, pharaoh would have caved much sooner, and god would not have had the GREAT story of judgement and deliverance that god needed.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


God will do right, even if we don't see it, or understand it,..........so, God is trying to cut off any dis-agreement or dis-trust, pre-emptively



Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

You skipped over all of the major verses.
Start with verse 11.
Explain please.

Romans 10:20
And Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I became manifest unto them that asked not of me.
many of the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, or the jews, or the messiah...........so, they didn't know to ask for the messiah................
they didn't know what they were missing.............so, God pursued them with evangelists, preachers, witnesses, etc
to educate them, and persuade them to believe and repent







Acts 11:18
And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

Granted here means GIVE! Like a GIFT!

of course it's a gift............the wages of sin is death...........someone must die for my sins.............if i die for my sins, i'll die in my sins............but, if Christ dies for my sins, i'll be saved from my sins............
i can't offer any suitable payment to christ for His death , so, it is a gift





Ephesians 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;



salvation is a gift, but god does require that i do good works

faith without works is dead

You're right, I used a bad verse that one time from Romans 10.
But the last verse I used for that still stands.
No one searches after God.

And that's the truth.
He has to make us.
That's why no one can come to Jesus unless Father draws them first.
And obviously, there are those that are not drawn.
It says that MANY are called, not ALL are called.
And the scriptures cannot be broken.

Also, faith without works means faith without corresponding actions.

If you say you have faith that you are healed.
You are expected to walk by faith and not by sight.
And to do the works that SHOW you have faith.
Such as telling people you are healed.
Even if you don't see it.
That is faith with works.
Faith without works is what people normally do.
They say, I have faith, but don't act like it.
Faith means you believe its already happened when it hasnt.
Once what we are having faith for has manifested, we no longer need faith for it, because we have it.

The play between predestination and free will is a paradox in the physical realm of our own human reasoning, but makes perfect sense and is entirely without contradiction in the spirit realm.

Can I make the point that Lucifer was created perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Ezek 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

He was created with righteousness, justice, beauty, wisdom, brightness. Notice God created Lucifer as an absolutely perfect being. God "set him so", he did not "set him up" to fail. The same applies with Adam. He was created perfect. God saw everything he had made and it was good. After he made man he said it was "very good". There was no inbuilt defect which would cause Adam to fail. God walked with him in the garden and taught him his ways. God did not "set up" Adam to fail as would be implied if we said that God decreed that he would fail. This is an abuse of the doctrine of predestination and foreknowledge which Calvinists seem to almost relish.

I recognise that God foreknew that Christ would die in order to save the sinful mankind.
1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

However I refuse to concede that there is any contradiction between this and what I have said previously regarding Adam. Even though in the physical realm and according to human reasoning there is an irresolvable contradiction here. Nevertheless by faith and the workings of the Holy Spirit I understand that there is nothing but perfect cohesion and agreement in these two statements in the spiritual dimension. I will not be drawn into futile attempts to explain that which the human mind cannot conceive and that human words cannot express.

For some things touching on our physical realm, human reasoning is appropriate and even essential. But for other things of a deep spiritual nature such as the nature of the Eucharist and the Godhead we must take the simple statements of the scripture on faith and a childlike understanding.

I understand the doctrine of predestination and foreknowledge. I understand the doctrine of free will. These things I know and believe by faith and by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Intellectually I can see that their is an impossible contradiction but by faith and the indwelling Holy Spirit I understand that there is perfect unity in these doctrines. So I set aside my worldly intellectualism and believe simply with the faith of a child. This is the way in which Almighty God confounds the wise and reveals his mysteries to the foolish of the world which he chose to glorify him.
1 Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise

So in summary
No free will + Predestination = Wisdom of the world and intellectually resolvable = False doctrine
Free will + No Predestination = Wisdom of the world and intellectually resolvable = False doctrine
Free will + Predestination = Intellectually impossible and foolish to the world = True Doctrine

Let's just believe the true doctrine by faith and stop trying to fit deep spiritual matters into the physical box which sits on top of our bodies. God has a brain the size of a planet, or a sun, or the universe. How can we expect to fathom the ten dimensions of reality when we can barely comprehend the 3 dimensions which God has given us cognisance of?