The manchild cults

Posted article on the kingdom of the cults:

Beware those who embrace heresies & turn naturally to these doctrines to try and defend themselves!

Proverbs 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit Is a fool who repeats his folly.

2 Peter 2:22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

It is educational to examine the source and nature of these cults. We need look no further than the origin of so many contemporary errors and heresies - the prominent Christian public figures and leaders who have been affected in some way by the 'new' Gnosticism of the Latter Rain/Joel's Army/Manchild/Vineyard/Manifest Sons and Toronto-Pensacola-Brownsville-Sunderland Deception cult. Among the many adherents are included: Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Paul Crouch, John Wimber, Francis Frangipane, Rick Joyner, Earl Paulk, Mike Bickle, Paul Cain, Pat Robertson, Rodney Howard-Brown (of the 'Laughing Revival'), James Ryle (of Promise Keepers), and Jay Gary (AD 2000 and Celebration 2000). There is a clear inter-relationship between leaders of Promise Keepers and the Vineyard movement, as well as a connection between Vineyard beliefs and the Gnosticism of Latter Rain.

Beware the 'Manchild' Manifest Sons of God and Latter Rain heretical movement. Francis Frangipane is the originator of the 'demonising' claptrap read by Sue Wheelhouse, and a brief survey of some of his writing should suffice to reveal the nature of his ministry. He is a participator in the 'Manchild doctrine' derived from a far-fetched interpretation of Revelation 12:5. The 'Kingdom Now' theology which has been spread via some of the worship music of Graham Kendrick and the Ichthus fellowship is a regurgitated form of the old 'Manchild' Manifest Sons of God heresy associated with Rousas J. Rushdooney, which pentecostalism almost unanimously rejected a generation ago. Rushdoony was a Reformed Calvinist, who believed the elect's task was to take dominion over every part of the social structure of the earth by applying biblical law to it. Sadly, every attempt in history to bring this about has resulted in disaster for the church and the nations promulgating it, whether it be under Calvin or Wingli!

'Manchild' Manifest Sons of God came out of the Latter Rain heretical movement in the early 1950's under the headship of John Robert Stevens. Under the usual guise of receiving 'new' revelation from God, the Manifest Sons of God claimed that their group was the only source of salvation (an obvious sign of error!) and that they were the only body of believers that God was restoring to the New Testament structure. Their rigid authoritarian structures called for members to yield mindless allegiance to the leader(s) teaching and the fundamentalist Manifest Sons considered themselves to be 'little Christs' continuing the incarnation on earth (cf. Morris Cerullo's claims: "When you look at me, you are not looking at Morris Cerullo, you are looking at Jesus Christ.").

This 'Manchild' is claimed to be a last days group of dedicated believers who will be figuratively "caught up unto God, and to his throne" to displace the demonic hierarchies there through spiritual warfare (v7), thus binding the Devil who is holding back the last great outpouring. Led by the restored apostles and prophets, they will 'feed and care for' the woman, interpreted as the Church world at large, who will be 'out in the wilderness' undergoing purging by the Lord and persecution by the world. Movements like 'The Toronto Deception' are trying to precipitate this event by moving into this 'birthing' of the Manchild stage. This 'knight jump eisegesis' (reading something into the Scriptures you want to use, to obtain the teaching you wish to promulgate, with scant regard for the normal rules of hermeneutics and exegesis) is exemplified by the work of Francis Frangipane who claims that the Church is to be viewed as a kind of virgin Mary who must give birth to Jesus 'the indwelling spirit':

"When the Spirit of Christ comes into the physical world, He must enter through a physical body. When Christ first entered our world as a child, it was Mary whom God chose to give Christ birth. Mary's life symbolized the qualities the church must possess to walk in the fullness of Christ. God is preparing us as He did Mary to give birth to the ministry of His Son. Even now, in the spiritual womb of the virgin church, the Holy purpose of Christ is growing, awaiting maturity, ready to be born in the power and timing of God. The virgin church is in labor and in pain to give birth (Rev. 12:5) even now hell trembles and the heavens watch in awe for I say to you, once again, the virgin is with child. Before Jesus Himself returns, the last virgin Church shall become pregnant with the promise of God. Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full stature of its Head, the Lord Jesus. Corporately manifested in holiness, power and love, the Bride of Christ shall arise." (Francis Frangipane, In The Presence Of God, New Wine Press 1994, pp. 153-157).

Here Frangipane presents his view that the 'Manchild' is the "Body of Christ", as opposed to the larger "Church" who somehow suddenly loses her virginity and has to be purged out in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6). He claims - using Scriptures about the transfiguration of Jesus, the Resurrection, and the covering of the glory - that these transformed believers will be irresistible, immune to harm, invincible, and even (some of the purveyor's teach) immortal. Once a person accepts the revised doctrine of the "transfiguration" on earth instead of the Rapture, and ceases to believe that the Church is taken "to be with the Lord", then a whole new revelation opens before him. Frangipane says in his article "Greater Purity, Greater Protection":

"The transformation of our souls positions us outside of the devil's reach. It raises us up spiritually to seat us in heavenly places".

Writing in River of Life ministry newsletter about Signs and Wonders (August 1995) Frangipane says:

"the most awesome unfolding of glory yet awaits the church...the name and the word are preparing the church to reveal the glory of Jesus (John 17:22).

and he then he quotes another verse (John 14:23):

" - my father will love him and we will come to him and make our abode with him". I am just completing a book entitled 'The Days of His Presence' which chronicles what I believe will be the greatest manifestation of all, the unveiling of Christ, the Word THROUGH HIS PEOPLE.

In the advert for this book by Frangipane, we read:

"Prior to Jesus Christ's physical return, his living presence will companion the Church in ever-increasing power. During this time, the visible glory of the Lord will rise and appear upon God's people. This unique event will be known as the Days of His Presence."

How do Frangipane and company arrive at this doctrine? Where in Scripture do we learn that Jesus will return as a Spirit? When he returned to heaven, he was a resurrected man of flesh and bones and He allowed Thomas (John 20:27-28) to prove that it was the same body. He sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven in His glorified resurrection body (1 Corinthians 15:42). The Lord Jesus Christ and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believed in him (the true meaning of John 14:23) so He did come and make His abode in them that loved Him. But in what manner is Frangipane saying that Christ Jesus is to 'return spiritually', as 'a glory', or as 'a power'?. This clearly informs us that the Frangipane's 'Latter Rain' doctrine of the 'spiritual return of Jesus', the 'glory cloud that transforms the church', is a return to the old Gnostic belief that Christ is 'a Spirit', an 'anointing', and that He did not have a body of flesh, but was 'a Spirit' - another heresy they share with the Jehovah's Witnesses! All they need to add to compound their error is a date - since the Witnesses have taken 1874, 1914, and 1916 etc., as their 'best guesses', perhaps they had better be more contemporary!

This is why we have the cry of "Come Holy Spirit" from Toronto/Pensacola/Brownsville et al, instead of "Come Lord Jesus". Some believe the two are synonymous because of confused views of the Trinity and insist that they can manipulate this 'Spirit' - even bringing 'it' (not the He of orthodoxy) back from Toronto, or wherever, in a balloon! Those who invoke an un-Scriptural spirit are inviting God to send an evil spirit as he sent one to Saul for his disobedience to His Word (1 Samuel 16, 18, 19) and they are now operating under 'another spirit', or 'power', but not of 'the same kind' as the Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit (John 14:16)!

While all the world outside of the 'Glorious Manchild' is doomed to wrath, they themselves are supposedly enjoying an earthly walk in spiritual bodies immune to sin, sickness or even death. The devil cannot touch them so we can expect these 'giants' of the faith to be living really saintly lives far above the feeble efforts of the rest of us! Latter-Rain teachers have long used Revelation 12, teaching that the woman in this passage is the church and the "Manchild" to be birthed is a spiritual second coming of Christ into His corporate body. When Latter Rain 'prophet' Paul Cain describes the church as the "Manchild Company" he is voicing a doctrine long held secretly by many of the new Gnostics.

The teaching that this more 'spiritually mature' body of Christ will be able to defeat death itself became known as the "Manifest Sons of God." Proponents took supposed clues from Paul's teaching in Romans 8 and, by classic misinterpretation, then suggested that a company of overcoming believers ("the sons of God") will be manifested upon the earth with never dying spiritual bodies before the return of Christ. The heresy accompanying the 'Manifested Sons' teaching, in one form or another, is the supposed 'birthing' by the church of 'a corporate Christ' who is said to be a fusing together of the spiritual Christ within His many membered body upon the earth. Though it is not always stated clearly, or taught by this whole group of heretics, this view assumes that the literal physical resurrected Jesus will not need to return as such! This is obviously contrary to orthodox interpretations of Scripture (Acts 1:11; 1 Corinthians 15:20-29; Revelation 5:6). They claim that Christ's second coming will happen when He is spiritually incarnated into His church, which will then be able to conquer death itself, and the teaching has been expressed in various ways by one of the most vociferous proponents, Earl Paulk :

"Jesus was God in the flesh. We must be as He was in the world, even greater in volume and influence." (Earl Paulk, The Ultimate Kingdom, Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, 1986, p.121)

"The completion of the incarnation of God in the world must be in His church...Jesus Christ is the firstfruit, but without tile ongoing harvest, tile incarnation will never be complete." (Earl Paulk, The Wounded Body of Christ, Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, p. 43

"The living Word of God, Jesus Christ, was conceived in the womb of a virgin. The Word became flesh in the God-Man Jesus Christ (John 1:1). Likewise, tile Word of God must be made flesh in the Church in order for us to bear witness to the Kingdom which God has called us to demonstrate." (Earl Paulk, Held In The Heavens (Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, 1985, p.60) "We are on earth as extensions of God to finish the work He began. We are the essence of God, His on-going incarnation in the world." (ibid, p. 125)

This is very different from the orthodox view that Christ indwells His Church by the Holy Spirit. When we ask how Jesus, with his current resurrected body in heaven, is going to be incarnated into the church that is still upon the earth they realise they have a problem and carry out a 'Watchtower' cult-adjustment of their Christology:
"He [Jesus] entered a higher realm of restoration and love by becoming an indwelling Spirit." (Earl Paulk, Thrust In The Sickle And Reap (Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, 1986)

"Jesus Christ, as the first-fruit of the Kingdom, began the work of conquering death on an individual basis, but we, as His church, will be the ones to complete the task. Jesus said (Matthew 28:18), "all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth," and the church today has that same power. Death will not be conquered by Jesus returning to earth. It will be conquered when the church stands up boldly and says, "We have dominion over the earth." (Earl Paulk, The Proper Function of the Church (Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, undated p. 13)

Obviously, like the fairy story 'emperors clothes' deception, we can all recognise the evidence that no one in this hyper-church has matured to the place of defeating death, so 'Bishop' Paulk makes the recommendation to his followers not to accept death unless they get 'a specific revelation from God otherwise'! (Earl Paulk, The Ultimate Kingdom (Atlanta: K Dimension Publishers, 1986, p.121)

The view that Jesus has entered a higher realm of restoration and love by becoming an indwelling Spirit' is in clear opposition to Scripture, for Jesus has not become the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit indwells the believer and the Resurrected Jesus is at the Father's right hand and in His glorified resurrected body He will return bodily to the earth. Obviously an indwelling spirit would not need to return from heaven. It is on this basis that some Dominion teachers assert that Jesus can be an on-going incarnation of God in His body (church) upon the earth and the reason so many claim to 'be' Jesus Christ. Consequently scriptures pertaining to Christ's ruling on earth are often seen as referring to the Church rather than Jesus and have obviously been influenced by visions and prophecies rather than Scripture. An example came from Marc Dupont of the former Toronto Vineyard, who claimed to have received a significant prophecy in which he stated:

"This move of the Spirit in 1994 in not just a Charismatic and Pentecostal experience, concerning power and gifting. It is one thing to be clothed with power; it is another to be indwelt with the Person of God." (Marc Dupont, Mantle of Praise, Alpha Magazine, 1994)

Just like the cults' exegesis of Scriptures, spiritualization of any Old Testament Scripture you need to arrive at your destination leads to the view of this 'birthing' as the return of the ark to the temple, that is, the coming of Christ 'invisibly' into His living temple the church. They claim that this will occur when the Feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled celebrating the Lord dwelling among His people and resulting in one Perfect Man filling both heaven and earth. This teaching of a spiritual second coming of Jesus into His body is really a secret 'knowledge' ('Gnosis') among the hierarchy, but it is clear from the arrogance of their prophecies that many of the leading proponents of these heresies believe that they are operating on a different spiritual plain from the rest of Christianity. Instead, just like the Mormon leaders indulging in polygamy for years before allowing the 'weaker and less spiritual brethren' into the secret, they serve up a more palatable teaching of a final global revival and restored apostles and prophets for public consumption.

These teachings have existed on the edge of the mainstream Charismatic/Pentecostal movement since the early 50's when they were rejected by the Assemblies of God but, since then, the errors of 'fellowshipping with unbelievers' (2 Corinthians 6:14) in allowing Rome and other Gnostic teachings to fellowship within their circles, has allowed these 'warmed up' heresies to creep back in. When people like Paul Cain admit admiration for arch-heretics like William Branham we should not be surprised when their teachings begin to be accepted - where once they would have been totally rejected. The Charismatic Renewal of the 60's and 70's gave room for the Latter Rain, et al, heresies to find a Biblically ignorant, non-discriminating, audience who accepted this and other teachings as part of this 'new' move of the Spirit and they have subsequently grown in popularity as experiential theology gained new ground through John Wimber and Vineyard conferences and 'signs and wonders' platforms.

I listened in horror last year as a regular family = attendee of the Colin Urquhart 'Kingdom Faith' camps imparted the information that Urquhart was recommending his flock to read Benny Hinn books now. If you are in the coal shed at the 'God Channel' with these other 'Word-Faith' heretics, as Urquhart is now, it is inevitable that you are going to find some smuts rub off on you. The same thing happens when Peter Wagner and others invite Bishop Bill Hamon to speak at their conferences and, without qualification, recommend his books with its thorough Latter Rain and 'Manifest Sons' teachings. Far from the fraudulent interpretations which arrive at these elaborate end-times scenarios of massive revival in which billions are saved through a great 'new apostolic reformation,' we should believe the words of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"When the Son of Man comes will He find faith upon the earth?" (Luke 18:8)
Scripture is clear that Jesus will return bodily to earth, and when He does His 'body' upon the earth (the full compliment of his church) will be raptured up to meet Him in the air (I Thessalonians 4:17) and then He will change our corruptible bodies in a twinkling of an eye. Jesus will then rule earth in His glorified and resurrected body and only then will the Sons of God will be manifest.
The 'new' Gnostic views are identical to the ramblings of a typical cult for, in the Bible, the 'Bride of Christ', the 'Body of Christ' and the 'Church' are all synonymous terms. This 'Manchild Company' is also spoken of as a 'great army' made up of those in the Body of Christ who are, of course, more 'spiritual' and dedicated than the average Christian and obviously made up of those who follow the teachings of the Latter Rain heretics. This emerging army will supposedly go forth to judge both the Church and the world while seeking at the same time to evangelize the latter.

Beware the 'Manchild Company' and 'Joel's Army' connection

This supposed elite of the 'Manchild Company' is being related to 'Joel's Army,' another false teaching derived from Chapter 2 of the book of Joel, by ignoring the orthodox historical and literal interpretation and using figurative means to come up with the desired result.
For centuries this description of an army in Joel 2 was always understood to be a literal reference to the Babylonians whom Joel, like Jeremiah later, warned were about to appear to judge God's people for idolatry. During the last century some interpreted it to be referring to the armies that come close to destroying Israel just before the Second Coming (Zechariah 14:2). But by making this to be figurative and symbolic language, a far-fetched doctrine of 'Joel's Army' is arrived at by the new Gnostics and called an all-conquering last days 'army of zealot Christians' who will suddenly explode onto the scene, going forth 'conquering, and to conquer' (Revelation 6:2). This doctrine is bolstered by fanciful prophecies which can be interpreted in umpteen different ways so they can be adjusted when they fail, or explained away by the refusal to accept the Scriptural test of 100% accuracy for prophecies, thus following the line of the cults. Rick Joyner's book ('The Prophetic Ministry' - which never even addresses Deuteronomy 18) and Jack Deere's similar offering (The Beginner's Guide to The Gift of Prophecy, Servant Publications, Ann Harbor, Michigan, 2001, ref. Page 132-135) - where he uses the same excuse peddled by the Jehovah's Witnesses to explain their 'failed prophecies'!) ignore, or try and redefine the obvious interpretation, so they can continue to blurt out anything that comes into their troubled imaginations and get away with it in their congregations which are peopled by ignorant and gullible Christians.

wow....excellent post! Good job, cult hunter!!!!

OK, this is a good example of somebody just using any scripture to proof a point. Meaning, that there is no understanding about the scripture that they quote. Such use, also indicates that the person quoting , thinks that the reader is without knowledge and will just accept any scripture as long as there is scripture.
Well let look at this quote then: (Stephen uses 2Pet 2:22) Here is the context:

2Pe 2:14 having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; enticing unstedfast souls; having a heart exercised in covetousness; children of cursing;

So , being all these things, they are in error . They are not walking the way of salvation:


2Pe 2:15 forsaking the right way, they went astray, having followed the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the hire of wrong-doing;
2Pe 2:16 but he was rebuked for his own transgression: a dumb donkey spake with man's voice and stayed the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are springs without water (They know not the Word, because water is a type for Word ), and mists driven by a storm; (They have no direction in the Kingdom)for whom the blackness of darkness hath been reserved. (These are Christians by the way)

2Pe 2:18 For, uttering great swelling words of vanity, they entice in the lusts of the flesh (they are not preaching death to self, they are preaching what the flesh wants to hear, like the rapture .They preach" DO not worry, you will live" "God is only love" "He will take you away before the tribulation" "Do not die to self, there is no need, you are saved as you are")

, by lasciviousness, those who are just escaping from them that live in error;
2Pe 2:19 promising them liberty (There it is again, not death to self, but liberty.)
, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he also brought into bondage. (What you teach. you serve)


2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first. (When people return to the sins that they have left and start living in them again, they become worse than they were, before they were saved)

2Pe 2:21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (They were saved and now returns to the lifestyle that they were suppose to have left)


2Pe 2:22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.
So its returning to your old sins and throwing your salvation out again, by returning to your vomit.


So we can see, that this scripture is being abused here in Stephen's post, although he gets mentioned in the scripture. But that was not my intention when I started this post, I just saw that , as I was doing this study on this piece of Scripture.

C

Steady on C.



I think you cease to be a Christian if you deny Christ.

Another point that I must make it the following.

Seeing that Stephen does not understand the man child in Rev 12, he cannot do an "expose" on it. Its like a child trying to explain to you why he thinks quantum physics is wrong.

We cannot judge things we have no knowledge of. In our judgement we credit things to people, that are not true, because the "judge" of this , has no understanding.

So when Stephen "describes" this "doctrine" he is even in error ABOUT the errors. In other words, he credits mistakes to people who are not making those mistakes, nor are they in fact saying what Stephen tells you they are saying.

For instance. I believe the man child in Rev 12 is still to come. So Stephen is describing me (and others ) on this forum, YET I do not recognize myself or what I believe in that which Stephen is describing. What he is describing bears actually no resemblance to the believes of the REAL people who believe this. He is in fact describing HIS UNDERSTANDING in the flesh and projecting it on others.

So we are in fact only getting the OPINION of a man.

For instance: I strongly believe that the Toronto/ Brownsville "blessing" is in fact not from God. It is a fake revival and it is taking people away from the real Word. It is not from God.


This again is Stephens own error in understanding. I have never heard such nonsense . According to Stephen there are demonic hierarchies on the throne of God, and people are going there (to the throne) to displace them !


There are too many errors, but if you all want to know them, I will actually go through his post point by point.

Just answer this time-line question to yourselves: (The Rapture Now cannot look at this scripture , because IF they do, it shoots it ALL out the water)

Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

Then go to Rev 12 and see of you can ignore "hereafter" and push it , like Stephen does to "Before"

The Lord knows people, if you are at all willing to learn the truth, then just read it for yourself !! Its plain as daylight. The man child in Rev 12 come "hereafter" and its Jesus showing John what is to come.

I know that they tell you its Israel, but that is because they have no background in the Scriptures.Out of whom is Israel then born, and what about the throne, and etc etc etc. Read it for yourselves.There is NO scriptural pattern in ANY type and shadow that points to Israel





C

Simple, where are you quoting me from here ?? This does not appear in my post?
C

It was quoted from the bible.

2 Peter 2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Any one who has read, the entire, bible, at least once, should know who the Man Child is. When He grew up He became the Groom.

Great post Stephen,

I had no idea there was an actual man-child cult doctrine out there in bug-land. I though this was some fancy that C had cooked up himself. When I jokingly chided C for trying to start a man-child cult, I had no idea that someone had already done it.

I am somewhat interested to know more about the man-child cult, but then if I spent time investigating every neo-gnostic cult theory I would be here for a month of sundays and still not scratch the surface of the bizarre ideas which bob around out there. Still I think your post was very instructive to show that there is nothing new under the sun and these guys with fancy theories are usually just the latest guy at the end of a long train of forgotten whackos who already proposed the freak theories a long time ago.

Well there you go then. A great Scripture based answer. Stephen will love it.

C

Goodness Ex, and here I thought you actually knew something of the Biblical teaching that Jesus gave about HIm coming back in HIs people (born out of the church, like a woman in travail)
Here is Jesus telling us about it:

Joh 16:17 Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?
Joh 16:18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith.
Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? ( Now watch Jesus's unexpected answer. Everybody thought He was going to say: Just look up and I will come on the clouds and rapture you! ...........but instead He said:
)
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

OK, so this is a description of the disciples of Jesus in the time of His return. WE will be full of sorrow.......

Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow

Oh, there it is!!! Rev 12



, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.

Am I the only one who see "man" and "child" here, connected to those who "have sorrow" ??


Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

So WE(the disciples at the time of the return of Christ) will now have sorrow.

WHEN is the sorrow now more?

When the child, who is a man, is born.

WHY?

Because we then rejoice, because we see Jesus again.

Where?

IN THE BELIEVERS AROUND US.


Joh 16:23 And in that day (the day of the birth of the man child ...Christ in you ) ye shall ask me no question.

Why not?

Because you will be LIKE HIM and have His mind.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, [u]if he shall be manifested[/u](In the believer ), we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.



Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be made full.
Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in dark sayings: the hour cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in dark sayings, but shall tell you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 In that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you;
Joh 16:27 for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go unto the Father.


mmmm, I read the same thing here:

Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee . the things which must come to pass hereafter.



Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:

These two scripture point to the same thing: Ruling the nations.




I have so many scriptures about this, (many more if you want them! )and you bring me a "cut and paste" from the opinions of men.!

C

i'm thinking that

the Toronto Blessing was not God.......it was a demon(s)............it was super-natural..........."At one time the TACF website described it thus: “The Toronto Blessing is a transferable anointing. "..........a TRANSFERABLE anointing..........that means that men transfered it to men................

TM (and other Eastern religions) cannot be learned from a book, it must be learned from an experienced practitioner, YOGI (it's a transferable spirit demon).

TM is the occult (demon possession)

in one place in the NT, the HOLY SPIRIT is called the SPIRIT OF JESUS.

How does Jesus live in us?..........He lives in us VIA the Spirit of Christ (the HOLY SPIRIT)

if you invite Jesus to COME INTO MY HEART, He will, (assuming that you're not living in sin, etc).

if you invite a demon-spirit to COME INTO MY HEART, he will

if you play with a OUIJA BOARD, that's inviting demons into your life
same thing with divination, praying to the dead, attending a demon-filled worship-service, preaching Jesus while you're living in sin,

if you live in sin, you're on satan's side

if you contradict the Scriptures and practice blasphemy, that puts you on satan's side (this is what the pope has done, and Rev 17-19 says that the RCC is full of demons)



jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_blessing


At TACF Revival services, worshippers have exhibited unusual behaviours that they attribute to an encounter with God and the “fire of the Holy Spirit”. The most common described behaviours include hysterical laughter (or “holy laughter”), physical spasms or jerks, falling to the floor under the Holy Spirit's power (aka “slain in the Spirit”) and speaking in tongues. Other less common behaviours include manifestations that resembled roaring like lions and barking like dogs.[1] At one time the TACF website described it thus: “The Toronto Blessing is a transferable anointing. In its most visible form it overcomes worshippers with outbreaks of laughter, weeping, groaning, shaking, falling, 'drunkenness,' and even behaviours that have been described as a 'cross between a jungle and a farmyard.'"

TACF pastors John and Carol Arnott were initially inspired by the revival in Argentina. As a result of their spiritual hunger for revival in Canada, they invited Randy Clark of St. Louis, Missouri, United States, to minister at TACF in January 1994. Randy Clark had been greatly impacted by the ministry of Rodney Howard-Browne, a South African preacher, founder of the Rodney Howard-Browne Evangelistic Association in Louisville, Kentucky, author of The Touch of God, and the earliest known proponent of the “holy laughter” revival phenomenon in modern times.



Practitioners of Chi Kung (Qi Gong) report the same manifestations during their practice as Toronto Blessing participants. In 18th century Russia, a similar phemomenon occurred as well, and it was soundly condemned by the Church as a heresy. Similar or quite similar manifestations are also reported in the practice of Kundalini.

wow....I see what C is saying here....Stephen sets up a false argument, incorrectly attributing these false cult teachings to people who don't believe them....then he tears them down.....lol! C has done an excellent job actually using scriptures......something the other posters can't do because they are in confusion.

I just don't want to cast pearls before swine who turn around and rend those sharing truth.......so I'll leave the point by point to you, C. I won't waste my time even replying to this silliness. Let the readers of the forum use their own discernment. Read my posts and see what you think according to the scriptures. The voice that screams the loudest, full of accusation, name calling and opposition to shared truth fit in the pattern of the Pharisees.

Hi BroJon, I have long time ago stopped trying to show something to Stephen and Ex, but they are sowing confusion, and I am posting scripture so those who care, can read is and ask God.

For the rest, well it saddens me, but I cannot do anything about it really. Jesus also told the rich young man the truth and when he walked away from it, He was just sad, but did not even go after him.

in Christ
C

Amen....and the pattern is that those who share the truth always get persecution for doing so. I would rather be on this side of that pattern. We all must answer to God in the end. No matter what these guys say about me or what I share, I will not be moved or intimidated by them at all. I pity them actually.....but the Lord knows we need opposition......so I accept this as from His hand to conform us into the image of Christ.

Hey C
i am not getting what you said in your previous post. Who are you saying that the Man Child is? I always looked at the man child as being the groom and all the rest of the birth as being the bride and the one in travail giving birth is creation centered around Gods Chosen. Israel of the flesh first and then Israel of the Spirit last and forever.

These are the bride.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

The Male Child who will rule with a rod of Iron

Psalms 2
7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.' "

Revelation 2
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels' as I also have received from My Father;
28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Revelation 12
5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

Revelation 19
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


It is apparent by all scripture that the groom and the bride will rule with the rod of iron.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that[b] Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist[/b]

Actually the word for "cometh" here is "is cometh" present continues tense in the Greek, because this is not talking about Jesus's first coming through Mary, but Christ continues "coming" in the flesh of His body of believers.

We all have Christ IN US (if we have faith in that fact, plus if we have the Word(Christ) IN US ) Seeing you and I are dead........who do you look at in the mirror?

2Co 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord the Spirit

We should (by faith) see Jesus Christ looking back at us, because God tells us that we no longer ARE, but Christ now IS. We got replaced at the cross. He took our ols self and destroyed it on the cross and gave us HIS LIFE. HIMSELF.

The manchild is HIM...Christ. But , yet again, not as the "Pharisees" will tell you to expect Him. As they did the first time round, they could not see Him for Who He was, because He did not fit their doctrine. Same this time round.
As you know : History repeats :Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

So , like all answers it comes back to Christ. The SEED that is sown, is the Seed that will grow and bear fruit: Christ.

We do not get to rule as people, its Christ. Christ is the overcomer that overcome FOR US, so that HE can rule THROUGH us. HIS BODY= man child, He is the mature SON OF GOD, that manifests Himself in Rom 8. Not clever Christians who do things "right" Its all about Jesus Christ and it will always be about Jesus.

I know you speed read brother, so read John 16 and see for yourself if what Jesus is saying relating to His return makes sense as a "normal " answer.

Then link this scripture. Seeing that Jesus never waisted time with the letter, He always spoke to reveal deeper things, so here He is telling us who His MOTHER is (the woman on the Moon) and the woman in John 16

Mat 12:47 And one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking to speak to thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples, and said, Behold, my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The sisters and brother too: It means from the same family. Christ is in all who belongs to Him. All who do the will of the Father (the Word) is considered to be brothers and sisters AND MOTHER (not Father)...just MOTHER, because in the group of believers is a "womb" (Spirit) that contains the Seed of the Word (Christ) that will bring forth after its own kind.

Just like Mary said, must WE SAY: Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

So, if it will be to you according to God's Word (the seed) then you WILL bring forth Christ (man child)

C

Matt 7: 16 tells us we will know them by their fruits.

So lets take a quick look.

We know that in order to obtain headship in one of these organizations you must be someone who is far along the path to having "Christ birthed in him" or her. In fact they should be an example of proof to all on lookers that this is the real deal.





Shall l keep going? Because l can you know...

These are ordinary men. Nothing about them begs the interpretation of "Christ birthed in them"...
It's proof to the opposite.

Rick Joyner:



This seems questionable..wouldn't you agree. He and Paul Cain were both knighted.

I have to admit that I am not that into studying cults, so I dont know much about the "manchild cult" or the "Corporate Dominion Theology" cult, etc.
And I am really not that interested in reading the long posts about them. So this is not a comment on them. If they are cults, I am against them.
But it is interesting to me, that there are certain types of people who like to discuss Biblical issues until someone confronts them with clear proof from Scripture that on of their positions is incorrect. Then they stop answering questions and start attacking the questioner. They seem to operate from the assumption that they are 100% right and everyone who opposes their view is totally wrong. And if the one opposing them, insists on evidence from Scripture, then the opposer is labeled as a "cult."

Again, I am not supporting any cults, manchild or what ever else is out there.
But I have to wonder, if one man sets himself up as the only one who has all of the answers about everything, then proceeds to condemn others who differ, I wonder if they might have some kind of cultic tendencies.

I guess my appeal is that the forum can be a place for everyone to discuss ideas with each other, without getting so defensive that we feel like we need to criticize and put down those who see things differently.
I am not opposed to debating the issues and proving ones point from Scripture. Anyone who has read my posts knows that.
If someone is wrong, then prove it from the Bible instead of trying to make them look like a cult.

3am

I agree 3am, and I am sorry about the long posts, but this matter cannot be spoken about it short.
I insist on seeing what I believe in Scripture.
Its easy to "cut and paste" from the Internet. I do not read what they paste. Why would I, it has not value. Its just an opinion. BUT they INSIST on THEIR opinion and that THEIR opinion is important !

IF people bring scripture, that is IN CONTEXT, then we can talk. I NEED the Word , because I can feel how my spirit cries out for it. It really is like water, I get thirsty. But the more I drink the more thirsty I become for it.
It causes joy to rise up in you.When God shows me something , I stand in awe. The Bible is the most amazing Book. It has no end. When God shows you, it just keeps on opening and opening and then you can feel LIFE rushing into you.
I have lost the respect for the opinions of men. I cannot trust my own opinion, because not all of my mind has bee renewed by the Word yet. Its like a race.....wash , wash, wash. Evey day the Word renews and changes those who wash their thoughts with it. Submitting to Truth, casting away falsehood. Bowing to the superiority of the Word, Jesus.
In Christ
C

The Lord has said: "Let no one deceive you for many shall come in my name, saying that I am Christ, and will deceive many people."

Amen, Stephen, for once we agree. Its solid scripture

C

Solid ..... yes, but many will miss-interpret with the intention to deceive.

sorry this post duplicated itself.

Yes the Bible says; 2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

So again you are correct and we agree. Its in the Bible
C

Are you telling on yourself? You claim to come in his name and say that He is Christ, don't you? and yet you are spreading Darby's and Schofield's lies.

Yes C
I hear what you are saying. That is 'right on".

I know you can see
C

Boy, that is alot here. I normally stay away from debates like this because in telling the truth about things I find that others try pulling others down in the act, being judge and jeary to them. I like that C. Let the word stand for its self. Great! I had just read a great deal about this this weekend and come and find it here.

I am still out there when It comes to understanding all about this, I didnt know that this group had been out there teaching these things, and at times I even heard others around me teach some of this, but still, I dont find I understand what makes them an cult.

Is it that they think that the word says that G-d the father speeks through them?

I read also some where that they think that they become G-d. Like some other cults do. Is this ture. I dont like going just by what others say is going on here, because I see that one of the pages I read also wanted to slander other pasters.

I like the way it has been done here for the most part, because or the way C, giving scritures and that there isnt any point where he names pasters to pull them down, like one of the other sites had done. That kind of thing throughs me off, and it leaves me thinking that they have more of a reason to post this than just telling the truth.

Is this post started by Stephens own writing or is this from another site, I find that there are others that might be thinking he really believes this, just because he posted it. This sounds like it was from another site that I had already read. So, It is anothers work, or Stephen?

Both. My sister writes for the site on the research of the cults.

Ok....thanks for that!


This is the site that I was reading some about this....

http://www.thechristianexpositor.org/page44.html




Now, just because I post this site doesnt mean that I fully believe what is on it, but just that This is were I started reading on this stuff.

Keep on with your research. The believer needs to know what is happening within "professing" Christianity today. Much deception is sweeping the Church in these last days.

Stephen
Why are you promoting and pushing the Margret Macdonald, Darby, Schofield Lies?

Pardon me, but the term "Bride of Christ" does not appear anywhere in the bible. I've checked about 10 different versions.

It is another example of people taking a popular teaching as gospel, and elevating it to 'sacred proportions' as Stephen does above. The same thing happened with "separation of church and state". Most people will swear it is in the US constitution, though that phrase isn't in that text either. Yet they've built a 'sacred doctrine from a nonexistant constitutional phrase.

We must be careful to stick to the word of God, not teaching as fact doctrines that are never taught in scripture. To state a belief that you believe is indicated by the whole body of scripture may have merit, but I'd dare say that most of the readers of this post are suprised to hear that none of the scriptural writers were inspired to use that phrase. Want another suprise, read Revelation chapter 21 to find out the identity of the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

Rev. 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13on the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

You see, my point is that if someone wishes to appear as factually exposing the error of others and their doctrines, then that person should make sure of their own doctrines and not assume that they are scriptural just because the belief is both popular and contemporary. Wasn't Copernicus declared a heretic because seemingly everyone knew that the sun and universe revolved around the earth?

I know that I have not really addressed the argument of the manifest sons of God. My point is to point out inconsistencies of those who don't hold to the same standard that they attempt to hold others to.

i'm not understanding your post........

What are you saying?

that Christ will marry an in-animate object (a PHYSICAL CITY)?.........made of stones, pearls, and gold?

or will He marry a person, or people, or family, or group?

or Church?

wouldn't Christ want to marry people, instead of a block of stone and gold?

Yes.....great post. If we take the scripture in Revelation as a parable...word pictures....7 headed beasts are not LITERAL...Harlots drunk on blood..not LITERAL.....a Lamb with 7 EYES...not LITERAL how are we to read Revelation in the LETTER? It's a PARABLE! It must be revealed by the Spirit of God. No one can just read the surface text and gain full understanding. It's LOCKED for goodness sake.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Great question. Gee, I thought Jesus wanted everyone to know the truth. I though His goal was to save every body. HHHmmmm....

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

You see, the Revelation of Jesus Christ is in the exact same structure as ALL His other teachings....it is a hidden PARABLE only to be understood by those He chooses. Period. It's written in such a way that you can read it a hundred times and STILL be in complete darkness unless HE gives it to you. That's what we are seeing on the forum. The vast majority simply read the LETTER (parable) without ANY spiritual understanding.

I do believe that the Lord is at this time beginning to open the yes of those who really love the truth. Not their own doctrines, denominational teachings, "Church" teachings....but love the TRUTH.

So yes, if you can receive it...the Bride is the CITY. WE are that city set on a hill. A city is where people live. The city of God is where He lives. He lives in His people. The people are the City of God, the New Jerusalem. Stop thinking with the carnal mind...this is a spiritual truth.
The foundational stones have the names of the apostles---the People of God have their foundations in the teachings of the Apostles.
The names of the 12 Tribes are on the gates...No one can be part of the "city" without the Messiah coming through the lineage of Israel....
The gates are pearls(sand irritates the flesh of the oyster and it produces the beautiful pearl)...no one can enter without going through pain and tribulation that produces the fruit that is beautiful to God.....

Ask the Lord to open you eyes to the deeper interpretations of His Revelation. If you love the TRUTH, He will give it to you.

Psa 46:4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
Psa 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.

Interesting............Thanks!



You said:

"Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? [/b]

Great question. Gee, I thought Jesus wanted everyone to know the truth. I though His goal was to save every body. HHHmmmm....

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. "


My thoughts:


the ***DISCIPLES*** are given the understanding..............the NON-DISCIPLES are NOT given the understanding.

so, DISCIPLES are DISCIPLINED, i think..........seems obvious

if you are willing and eager to be DISCIPLINED by the Teacher-Master-Lord,.........then,......you can be a DISCIPLE



Lord Jesus, We praise your Wonderful Name above all names.
Please make us to be DISCIPLES!
PTL!



Jesus wants to save everybody,........but many don't want DISCIPLINE.........they don't want to live in INTENSE LOVE.

There are sheep and there are goats. Everyone is not a sheep.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Many are called, FEW are chosen.

No argument here, just curious, Dennis. How do you see the scriptures in Romans that says God creates vessels of wrath for the very purpose of destruction. Does Jesus want to save them?


Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Seems to me that God is in full control and hasn't called everyone to be sheep. What is your take on this?

Bro. Jon, I always enjoy your post, but don't always fully agree. I'm trying not to read more into what your saying, but do you believe in predestination? It seems pretty clear that the Bible teaches we have choices to make, and that detrimines our fates. Yes God has a master plan, and there are enough purely evil people that he can pick and choose who he wants to be the bad guys.

i don't have a really great answer for you, EXCEPT

if God pre-destines salvation for me, and damnation for you (or vice-versa), then, God is PARTIAL, and many people are repulsed by this NON-LOVE

and the Bible clearly states GOD IS NOT PARTIAL..........AND HE WANTS ALL PEOPLE TO BE SAVED.
and this is common sense (if God is Love)

calvinism makes God to be a Monster

you wouldn't tolerate Calvinistic behavior and PARTIALITY from me, but you tolerate this behavior from your Perfectly Loving God!

Gen 4;7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?


salvation or damnation depended on Cain's free-will decisions..........not on God's (alledged) Calvinism





Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

And what about those claimed to be witches....and the whole Dark Ages?

Now turn your eyes to the most RIGHTEOUS SON OF MAN AND SON OF GOD, that walked the EARTH, was sent down from the FATHER to do his WILL...and set the captives free.
But they loved darkness more than light.
Because he loved much, they hated him, and killed the LIVING SON OF GOD...

BUT HE IS RISEN....and the Holy Spirit is our comforter...for anyone who stands in Christ will be delivered up to be persecuted for his name's sake.
therefore there is sorrow...
For they SCREAMED PEACE PEACE but there was no peace...for inside their hearts where full of bitterness and envy and strife...they where for war.

amplified bible
gen 4;7
7If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.


the amplified is far more better than the KJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=45;

Good answer. I'll only differ in this: we are not the city of God, but we are part of God's city. We are citizens and we are the holy tabernacles, by my understanding. The Holy City belongs to God, and he has chosen us to be one with His son by grafting us in. Jesus said we are to remain in him. Here's a clue:

Isa 62:4 "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married."

This is the only use of the word Beulah (which means Married) in the scriptures. Hephzibah means "my delight is in her" Hephzibah is another name used by God for Jerusalem according to the Strongs Concordance.

I'd recommend that you read all 12 verses to understand this in its context. V 12 is key to making the distinction between the Holy people and the Holy city.

You have taken this verse totally out of context.

NOW READ JOB...he was righteous, and those his friends came against him.

If I do well by GOD I will be accepted by him and he will give me strength and courage to honor him and be approved by him...if I conform to the WORLD and appease them and their thinking of the things of this world...I will only be accepted by the WORLD and not our Heavenly Father. But we live in a fallen world, and fall with it, when we please man and not God...for he is the sourse of Life within us, and when we turn away from his directing us to not conform to the WORLD(he is renewing our minds and hearts desire is to please Jesus and allow for him to do a WORK a MIGHTY WORK within us all...a little leaven bread spreads into a loaf of dispair..therefore we know when we turn away...but he is a loving God and is always helping us grow i