By futurist or dispenstionalist, I am referring to those who split the 70th and 69th week and make the 70th week yet a future time when God bestoes his favor on Jews because of their Jewish blood or heritage.
I am aware that not all futurists teach that every Jew left behind after the rapture will be saved during the tribulation. But as far as I know, they do all teach that God will specially bless them and fulfill promises and prophecies to them because they have Jewish or Israeli blood.

Many who expouse the futurist/ dispensationalist position like to quote Romans 11:25,
"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.'" This passage is used by many to prove that after the rapture, all Jews will be saved. Or that God will show special favor to those who are of Jewish descent.

An interesting question is "Who is a Jew."
Two Issues come to mind.
First, how much "Jewish" heritage is required for a person to be a "Jew?" Jacob's descendants lived in Egypt for 430 years, during which intermarriage with Egyptians was a virtual certainty. Even Joseph did it. This would spread "Jewish" genes throughout the Egyptian populace. Similarly, the ten Northern tribes were throughly dispersed spreading their gene pool throughout what became the peoples of Europe and central Asia. Are all of the offspring of those intermarried Egyptians, European and Asians Jews, because they have some even minute Jewish ancestry? Ane even worse, today, after thousands of years of intermarriage, are all of the offspring going to be saved or are they entitled to special treatment by God because some where thousands of years ago they had a great, great, great..... grandfather or grandmother who was Jewish.

Here is another absurdity.
The Bible clearly teaches that the seed of Abraham is common expression describing a person's status as a Jew (Psalm 105:6).
Ishmael was Abraham's son and father of the Arab people.

That much is definitely true. Here comes the absurdity:
By this definition, the Arabs are Jews, they are the seed of Abraham, Literally speaking. If one pursues the literalist approach, then those Armageddon scenarios that pit Arabs against Jews actually would be Jew against Jew.

Now, before anyone calls me "disingenuous," let me clarify, no one actually teaches either of these extremes! But never the less, I think the question begs to be answered. If there is a future time when God bestows special favor on those who have Jewish descent, then how much Jewish blood is required in order to qualify?

Likewise for the second extreme, no one teaches that. They would rightly point to the verses that say, the promise was through Isaac not Esau. However, you cannot deny the fact that Esau was Abraham's son, just as much as Isaac was. And if you eliminate Esau because he was not a "child of the promise," then you have abandoned the literal (physical heritage) approach and accepted the Spiritual approach of the NT, that "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel nor are all of Abraham's children his descendants." Romans 9:6
And If you accept that spiritual step, then you may as well go the rest of the way with the NT writers and accept the fact that in Christ, we are not only Abraham's children and heirs to the promises (Gal 3:28)), we are no longer foreigners and aliens excluded from citizenship in Israel... but fellow citizens with God's people (Eph 2:12, 19).
Now Israel is the church!
It is all about Jesus.
It is His blood that determines who is a Jew, not our blood!
3am

Yes, the extremes of classical dispensationalism, and replacement theology are not correct. They are simply two sides of the same coin (a bad penny).

The truth is that God has ALWAYS had a remnant in Israel, and he always will. Israel is still Israel whether thay have become broken off branches or not.

God "hath...mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

THAT is the answer.

Even in the OT when God was primarily choosing from among the nation of Israel God had "reserved to himself men, who had not bowed the knee" by GRACE.

Then as now "there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Nothing has changed for Israel, that is what Paul was trying to tell us. God has ALWAYS had a remnant from among Israel and he always will. Now if youn want to question God on his choice of who qualifies as a true Israeli?? Well you'll have to take that up with Him.

Superfundy,
You are right on. Dispensationalism obviously has serious problems.
Replacement Theology is wrong.
Israel is not replaced by the church.
True Israel has always been the church, so to speak from the get go.
In fact, Stephen in his God Inspired speach before he died even called Israel the church in the wilderness. (Acts 7:38)
Jesus finally fulfilled all that national Israel failed to do.
But everything was always pointing forward to Him from the Start.
The Seed of the Woman who would crush the head of the serpent.
The Seed of Abraham, through whom all nations will be blessed!
King David-
All pointed to Christ.
And in Him, the true Israel, we to are the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!
Keep up the good work
3am

So....ALL Israel is actually all who have come into the Body of Christ by faith, whether physical "jew" or non-jew....the Olive Tree is made up of ALL who are truly "In Christ".

So..."ALL' doesn't mean every single "jew" individually, but every single one of God's Elect.

I'm more "jewish" than any of the physical DNA jews who spit on the name of Jesus. God does have a Jewish remnant....but it is only that...a remnant.

Well, lets not get ahead of ourselves.

The church was something Jesus said he WOULD build, and he still is building.

The OT testament saints were brought under the new covenant by Jesus, when he preached the gospel to the "spirits in prison".

There is FAR too much weight placed upon the term "ekklesia" in the bible.

Stephen probably read regularly from the greek OT, which would explain why he used the term in reference to the OT congregation. It is used several times in that version (the LXX).

So in one sense I believe you are correct. The OT saints are "dead in Christ" retroactively accdording to this scripture:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

To further this point, please compare these two passages of scripture:

Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

In that last verse, the LXX (greek OT) reads "the Church" as this next passage confirms:

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

Do you see how this scripture (according to classical dispensationalists) commits a cardinal sin??

It interprets a passage of scripture that clearly refers to Israel, as referring to the (supposedly) totally unique "ekklasia".

Now, before we jump to the wrong conclusion, this does not mean that the Church has replaced Israel. But it certainly cannot be supported that Israel and the Church are totally and completely separated and unconnected.

The "mystery" was indeed hidden (in plain sight) in the scriptures. Even though the historical grammatical method of biblical interpretation requires that we interpret this Psalm as pertaining to David, any baby Christian would immediatly recoignize the implications for the sufferings of Christ.

So, did the writer of Hebrews make an error?? I don't think so.

Please notice that in the Hebrews 2 passage, the writer makes it clear that it is Jesus who is speaking in that prophetic passage in the Psalms.

In verse 11 he asserts that "He" (Jesus) is not ashamed to call "them" (Christians) brethren. And then he quotes the Psalm as being the words of Christ.

Note also that he who sanctifies and them that are sanctified are "all of one".

No the writer of Hebrews did not make a mistake. Nor did any of the other NT writers who saw the church as a continuation of God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The imagery in Psalms is a typological Christ.
It is refreshing to read someone who can grasp the spiritual, typological nature of the OT and yet at the same time avoid the pitfalls of replacementism.
My spell checker fussed at that word, but I think you understand what I mean
I appreciate your insights.
Keep up the good work
3am

Thanks 3am, this is a necessary topic. Good insights have been given.

It is not a difficult matter, once we see that ALL have to be in Christ to be saved. Seeing that Christ is the "seed" (singular) of Abraham.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So at the end, all who are IN Christ are in the Seed and are ONE MAN. (Jew or Gentile)

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

When people understand that when we get circumcised in the heart, we loose the old self and now we are alive ONLY IN CHRIST, unto God, then it makes sense that now we are a Jew (inwardly) because ::::
ALL who loose the old life, come into the Seed and thus become the "chosen " of God.

See, God actually only choose Christ.



C

Aight.....

In Isaiah 28, there is a prophecy that was specifically directed at Israel, which manifested itself in the church:

Isa 28:4 And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up.
Isa 28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
Isa 28:6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.
Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Isa 28:17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

When Paul taught about the gift of tongues he quoted Vs. 11 above:

1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Yet he did not specifically point only at Israel, but at all unbelievers:

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

More importantly, this was to be the sign that AD70 was coming, and that the "covenant with death" which they had made with the Romans to crucify Jesus, would not be profitable. In fact, it would become a scourge to Israel.

How then can the Church not be a part of the plan of God to deal with Israel?

What was the message that was first spoken in tongues in Acts 2??

Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Remember Peters words (In an earthly language)??

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

And so the first message in tongues was the gospel to Israel, just as Jesus had already said:

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Now lets see where else Paul quotes the Isa 28 in regards to the church.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Amazing that anyone can disconnest Israel from the church, isn't it?

Another point about Isa 28. Please take a look at vs. 5. You will see the remnant mentioned as "the residue of his people". He is their Messiah, how can accepting him disconnect them from the promises to the Fathers.

The remnant mentioned in this passage is obviously in the Church.

Thanks, this is a great post . Good insights

Replacement theology is wholly inadequate to harmonize the Scriptures. Surely in all dispensations, anyone who came to God, the way God proscribed was saved. Therefore to make an arguement based soley upon heritage or jewish blood is senseless and misses the whole point.

Nonetheless, God is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob/Israel. Therefore, He is the God of the 12 tribes of Israel.

He gave His oracles through the jewish people and was indeed jewish Himself.
Just because the mystery kingdom was not announced until after they claimed He had a demon and brought certain wrath upon their own blood, does not explain away the diaspora and the regathering of the people.

Paul's point that not all Israel is Israel is truely a spiritual explanation of both the mystery kingdom and the historical kingdom both.

Ahab was a jew, but was not spiritual Israel. Yet Elijah was spiritual Israel. At the time of Elijah there were only 7,000 believers in the land. That is why they were sent off to captivity for 70 yrs. True believers have always been a remnant even among bloodlines. However, God has made specific plans for the redemption of Israel and their regathering for national redemption. Zecharia tells us that even then, with all the signs and wonders that will be done for their benefit via the two witnesses, that only 1/3 of the remnant will have saving faith and 2/3's will perish. So how is this complete national redemption? The 2/3's die before Christ returns....therefore 100% of the remaining remnant, which will most likely be in a city of refuge like Petra, will be saved.

As always, only spiritual Israel is saved, whether it's a natural branch or a grafted in branch. As we see the great falling away excellerating, we can be sure to see more and more jewish people coming to saving faith for the blinders will be lifted and the spirit will call a higher and higher percentage of them back into covenant....for many it will take signs and wonders but not for all of them, as messianic congregations are becoming more and more prevalent.

Super, you mentioned the spirits in prison.

But Peter says quite clearly that these were the people who were disobedient when Noah was building the ark, so they weren't the OT saints.

Well, even should you be correct that they did not hear the gospel at the same time, it is a minor point.

According to Luke 16, there was simply a span between the OT saints and hell, and they could communicate across it.

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

But I am willing to concede this point.

Let me further support my contentions from other angles, so that perhaps this point isn't so far out of bounds.

Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
Heb 6:14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

The promise of the OT saints is the same to which the writer of Hebrews directed the Church (Hebrew believers) in encouraging them to perservere.

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The anchor of the soul IS the promises which God made to israel, which Jesus himself has secured. The ultimate fulfillment of which will happen in the MK.

With this in mind, we should look specifically at the promises made to Israel, throughout the OT, to see if the writer of Hebrews addresses them in encouraging Israeli believers.

The answer is yes, he does, right from the start:

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

This might not seem like a reference to Jesus ultimate MK, but upon further investigation of the OT scriptures which he quotes here, we find that indeed, he is making reference to Israels ultimate hope for the promises made to the fathers, being in Christ Jesus. Including that of the Davidic kingdom.

Look at the first reference, in it's original context:
Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

That the writer of Hebrews referenced this scripture in the context of speaking to Israeli believers should tell dispensationalists that their theory of total separation from the church and the promises to Israel are COMPLETELY wrong. Without being in the Church, Israelis have no hope of recieving the promises.

The next reference:
1Ch 17:7 Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:
1Ch 17:8 And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.
1Ch 17:9 Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,
1Ch 17:10 And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.
1Ch 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ch 17:12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
1Ch 17:13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
1Ch 17:14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

This too, is related to the Davidic covenant, which Jesus is, in Hebrews, said to be fulfilling for the remnant of Israel, which is in the church.

The third referense is only found in the LXX version of the OT which is what much of the OT references in the NT were taken from. It is found in the Deut 32:43 (the song of Moses):

Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.

And this is just from Chapter one.

"Amazing that anyone can disconnest Israel from the church, isn't it?"

Is it? The scriptures do this very thing. If one can not see the differences of national Israel, the nations, and the Church as presented in the scriptures one will never understand Bible prophecy. The Church (Body of Christ) of both Israelite and Gentile is not presented with ethnic ties. But this is a different matter regarding ethnic national Israel and the other nations (gentiles) of the world. The Gentiles of the Church are not ethnic Israelites, and there are very few Israelites that have come into the Body of Christ since the first century.

When the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, the Lord will then turn to national Israel during the timeof the end and will restore the kingdom to them in the Middle East. He is both an Israelite by His humanity and He is Israel's King and Messiah. He will return and rule the earth for 1,000 years from Jerusalem. The subjects of His earthly kingdom will be mortals, not the immortal members of the Body of Christ (the Church). Both the mortals of national Israel and the Gentiles of the nations who survive the tribulation period will re-populate this kingdom. Most Gentiles of the period will not turn to the Lord during His hour of trial and most will be killed in unbelief and lost forever ..... billions of them. 2/3rds of national Israel will also be killed in unbelief, but a portion will turn to the Lord and will be saved.

ROMANS 9;31

KJV

if Israel is the Christian Church (the NT Redeemed), then Paul laments that the Church is not saved......and the Church hath not faith...........and the Church has stumbled at that Stumblingstone (Christ).

no,
The Truth is:
"Israel" , in the NT, sometimes refers to the un-saved un-believing Jews..........the Elect Nation ISRAEL.


and other times, "ISRAEL" sometimes refers to the NT believers.
(context is everything)




31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

"National Israel" and "the nations" is clearly deliniated.

Israel and the Church however is not so clear at all.

In fact, to say that National Israel is separate from the Church is to micharacterize the entire subject.

The Israeli people comprise a nationality, they always have, and always will. However the Church is a spiritual entity made up of both Jews and Gentiles. This requires that there be a division in Israel.

The first mention we hear of this can be seen as far back as Moses:

Deu 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

It is interesting to see the interpretation of that last underlined portion in the NT:

Act 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

This is probably quoted from the LXX again.

And so the division of Israel in this dispensation, as predicted by Moses, was begun with the inauguration of the new covenant.

And that this division was always true is confirmed by Paul in Romans 9:
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



I note you have very little scripture to support your contentions.

Is this simply your assertion that the scriptures separate the remnant of Israel from the Church, or is there scripture to support this contention? Or is it even the remnant to which you refer? Where would you place the remnant of Israel if not in the Church?

I also noted you didn't respond to the specific references I have made, what say you to those NT allusions to OT prophecy in context of the remnant?



Yes, in the MK, no one disputes this fact (except amillenialists).



None of this is in dispute either.



Precisely! Then, just as now, and as it has always been, there will be a remnant of Israel that is saved.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

This is true, these would be in reference to Israel according to the flesh (or the broken branches):

Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites;....

Notice even here, he begins to make a clear division between his brethren that believe, and them that do not.

He is referring specifically to them who are not of the remnant. This is made clear as you read the entire passage in context. You cannot simply take one portion of Romans 9-11 and expect to understand it.

Here is (what we might call) his thesis statement:
Rom 9:6 ....For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

And this is his summation:
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved:.....

I think the conclusion is obvious.



My point precisely.

There is still more evidence of the division of Israel, and how it began to be manifested in this dispensation:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

This is the beginning of the division of Israel into two groups in the current dispensation.

In vs 10, the axe is being laid to the root of the trees that were not bringing forth fruit. In vs 8, coming to be baptized is evidence of that fruit. In vs 12 Israel is being separated like wheat and chaff.

More direct evidence could not be asked for that Israel has within it two separate groups.

The whole foundation of this thread is sinking sand. God only bestows His favor on those who diligently serch for Him and come to him through his son In Faith from any nation tribe and tongue. Christ's ministry was the first half of the last week of Daniel an the two witnesses ministry is the last half of the week. No one is Going anywhere until Christ comes and raises the dead and catches up His army of saints to subdue the earth and set up His kingdom. You have a very short time to catch up with all of this. Because the way it has always been is about to end finally. Praise God

someday, after the trib, during the Mill Reign, (i think).........Zech 8;20 will be fulfilled



Zec 8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:
Zec 8:21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the LORD, and to seek the LORD of hosts: I will go also.
Zec 8:22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD.
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.


if Israel is the Church (in the Mill Riegn),............then, why are the jews and gentiles separated as separate groups, EVEN AFTER THE TRIB?

"The Lord is with the Jews, not with the other nations".

After the Trib, the Jews (Israel) will serve the King in Jerusalem.

these Jews are NOT the Church


in the NT, Paul said that:..........."IN CHRIST, THERE IS NIETHER JEW NOR GENTILE, SLAVE NOR FREE, MALE NOR FEMALE"

but after the Trib, the Jew is separate from the Church..............these Jews are not IN CHRIST (in the same way that we Christians are)

No one has said that the Church continues after the rapture.

After the rapture "the door is shut" and we enter a new dispensation. During that dispensation, members of the Church rule and reign with Christ.

In this dispensation the Church is being built. Obviously, after the rapture, the Church will have been completed. So these objections aren't really valid.

If the Jews are not 'In Christ" the same we are, yet they are saved after the rapture then how are they saved?
It sounds to me like you have a different gospel for Jews.
But the Bible teaches that salvantion in both the OT and NT comes only though one Gospel, the "everlasting Gospel (Rev 14:6) which is the same in the OT and the NT Hebrews 4: 1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith....
6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience....
9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

Are you saying the Jews will have a different Gospel, and can be saved without being "in Christ?"
3am

the Jews rejected the SPIRITUAL things of Christ

they wanted a PHYSICAL salavtion from their PHYSICAL enemies (Romans, Palestinians, etc)

we christians wanted a SPIRITUAL salvation from our SPIRITUAL enemy (sin, satan, etc)

the jews who do not want a SPIRITUAL salvation, and they survive the Trib,..........those Jews will PHYSICALLY see Christ Return, and they will believe THEN (seeing is believing), and they get a PHYSICAL salvation from their PHYSICAL enmeies (the a/c and the world's armies)

WE CHRISTIANS GET A spiritual SALVATION, WHICH IS FAR BETTER

we will be im-mortals........we will not have babies
the jews will be mortals.........they will continue to make babies

the jews are no better than any other peoples (such as gentiles), BUT, they are loved FOR THE FATHERS' SAKE (ABE, ISSAC, JACOB)

Jesus did not rebuke the diciples when they asked about the time that Jesus would restore again the kingdom to Israel.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

The gospel message to the Jew was regarding that very thing.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

It would hardly be fitting to place Jews in the Church by decieving them into believing they were partaking in the new covenant, and entering into the very means whereby their promised kingom would be established, if indeed they were to recieve something else. Seems a bit disengenuous of God wouldn't you say??



As was pointed out by 3am, there is but one means of salvation. So they simply get go into the MK as born again individuals, and certainly, to be raptured would be far better. But this isn't really the issue here.

The issue is this:
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

If what you say is true, would it not be a lie to make them jealous by gentile salvation?



This is a rather odd point to make.



Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Yes, there is much advantage to being a Jew.

But your right as concerns the salvation of the soul, Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

But if you believe Jewish Church members are somehow not going to inherit the kingdom promised to the Fathers, you are sorely mistaken.

According to Hebrews 2 vs 3;

Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

So the "gospel of the kingdom" preached by Jesus, which supposedly has nothing to do with the salvation we now enjoy, was indeed preached regarding this "great salvation".

uh oh.....

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Why is he speaking to the Hebrew Christians about "the world to come"??

That's none of their concern!!

He goes on here to talk about their role in this "world to come". Sadly (according to some) they are partaking in this "great salvation" now, only to supposedly not take part in that glorious future kingdom which their Messiah died to guarantee, and which this writer was telling about.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

So man was to rule over all things, but he has not yet taken that ascendancy.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Christ, who is the King, and His saints who will reign with Him, are all "of one." They are His "brethren," and will share in His glory and Kingdom.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Vs 12 is another direct reference to the kingdom promised to Israel from Psa 22:

Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live forever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

Obviously the writer of Hebrews expected the Church to have a role in the coming kingdom that is far greater than many would have us believe. Otherwise these references to the coming kingdom of God in the context of the Church would be inappropriate.

you're confusing the jews who accepted Christ.......with the jews who did NOT accept Christ

the jews who accepted Christ are no longer jews, in the sense that.......IN CHRIST, THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GENTILE, SLAVE NOR FREE, MALE NOR FEMALE

we christians are all in this together...........i'm not a gentile, i'm not a jew...........i'm a Christian


there are jews who will not accept christ until they see Him Physically at the end-of-trib.............they are in a special group , all to themselves

in the new heavens and new earth,
the ELECT JEWISH NATION will be observing the Sabbaths, new moons, Passovers, Pentecosts, Tabernacles, the OT festivals and OT HOLY DAYS


the ELECT JEWISH NATION will be with us FOREVER!



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=45;

ISAIAH 66;22
AMPLIFIED BIBLE

22For as the new heavens and the new earth which I make shall remain before Me, says the Lord, so shall your offspring and your name remain.

23And it shall be that from one New Moon to another New Moon and from one Sabbath to another Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the Lord.

24And they shall go forth and gaze upon the dead bodies of the [rebellious] men who have stepped over against Me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind.

Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.


Abe and his generations will be with us forever
and they will own the PROMISED LAND ........FOREVER


the ELECT JEWISH NATION ISRAEL will be with us forever...........un-conditional Promise from the great PROMISE-KEEPER.

the christian church was never promised a physical land, with defined physical boundaries............our PROMISED LAND is Christ Himself

Hallelujah!

PTL!

I want to be sure I am understanding what you are saying. By SPIRITUAL salvation, you mean salvation from sin, Satan, etc. as opposed to PHYSICAL salvation, merely salvation from physical oppression such as Roman, etc. Am I right?

If so that would mean that those Jews who only desire physical salvation, want to live a life free of oppression, but have no desire to overcome sin, and live a life of obedience to God. In other words, it sounds like you are saying that they will be Physically delivered from oppression, but also able to settle into an unhindered life of sin because they do not desire to be spiritually saved.
If that is what you are saying, I see huge problems here.

First of all, that state is impossible.
An unspiritual person is hostile to God's law, does not want to obey God nor can he (Romans 8:5).
If the Jews after the tribulation are saved physically, but allowed to continue their life of sin, which is rebellion against God and His law, then they will still be lying, stealing, killing, abuse, worshiping other Gods, etc....
Because they cannot obey God's law. If all of this is happening, then they are not really saved physically.
Physical salvation only comes when mankind loves God and trusts God enough to obey God. God's laws are not just rules. They describe how to live a life of love which God created us to live in the beginning.
The law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) but results in physical freedom from oppression.

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son... to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

What you are suggesting is not only a physical and spiritual impossibility, it undermines the Gospel of Jesus Christ! That is my real beef with dispensationalism. If you press it to it's logical end, it reduces the cross to not much more than a man dying at the hands of cruel oppressors instead of total victory over sin and death. What you are suggesting is a different gospel from the one Paul taught, and he had some pretty stiff words for any other gospel which is really no gospel at all (Gal 1:7).
What will they believe? That Jesus will deliver them from antichrist but allow them to keep sinning and be unspiritual? Belief means faith. They are both the same word.

That brings us back to the first question raised on the post which has never been answered.
And who are those Jews that will "believe" and be saved physically but not spiritually?
"How much Jewish blood does it take in order to be numbered among them? 100%, 50%, 25%, 1%.......
.000000000001%
All of this again demonstrates the absuridity of Dispensationalism and the pre-trib rapture.

Here is another problem, or another view of the same problem, because the Gospel is the real issue.
Didn't Paul say that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God?" And didn't Jesus say, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.... no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3, 5).
Was this true? Or can flesh and blood (Jews) enter the kingdom, simply because they are Jews.

Then how can the Jews after the trib who do not want spritual salvation enter the kingdom?
If only the "born again" can enter the kingdom, then those Jews would have to be born again.
If they are born again, they would have Spiritual Salvation.
Now that is true, for sure!
They get to make babies and we wont. Sounds like they at least get some things that are better

But seriously, "mortal" means subject to death.
They will be dying. That does even sound like physical salvation.
1Cor 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable... 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where is the Victory in Physical deliverance without spiritual salvation?
Again, Where is the Cross!
Is God not able to totally remove sin and death from His universe?
And I have not even touched what happens at the end of the 1000 years.
Does God just allow them to keep living in sin and dying off?
Or does he feel like He has honored the fathers enough, and now he can cast them into the lake of fire?
Or does he somehow force them to all start loving him and wanting to obey him without being spiritual?
Lots of questions. But the biggest one is, "Where is the cross in all of this!
3am

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Heb 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

These quotations (part of which is only found in the LXX) comes from a prophecy of Isaiah (8:17-18) which, in context, refers to Christs first coming, and the gathering of the remnant from among Israel. Apparently the writer of Hebrews was implying that his audience was the "children whom God had chosen" referred to in that passage.

And they are to be a part of the "assembly" of "brethren" among whom the Messiah says he will sing when he comes in his kingdom.

Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isa 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

This is a clear reference to Israel, applied to the Church by the writer of Hebrews.

Maybe you should tell that to the writer of Hebrews.

To borrow a phrase from Stephen, "you need to broaden your scope and understanding of visionary prophecy." (dont tell him I said that. ) and I would add, "the covenants."
Paul tells us that the "seed" in that promise is not many but "one, who is Christ" (Gal 3:16).
Now was Paul misinterpreting the promise? Or was that true?
If it is true, then the only way any one can inherit that land is to be "in Christ." (Gal 3:28).
That is what "broadening your view" really means; Letting Christ be the defining factor, not real estate.
You cannot understand the OT apart from the New.
Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Jesus came to paint the Black and White picture of the OT into Technicolor!
It is a mistake to follow the interpretation of the OT rabbis and interpret the OT as though Jesus never came.
Furthermore, Paul makes it clear that when God told Abraham that "all the nations of the earth would be blessed through him," God was actually preaching the gospel in advance (Gal 3:9). The children of Abraham are those who believe (v 7). And that does not mean only in the NT, because, "Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." (v6). Even in the OT, those who did not believe were not considered children of Abraham. If flesh and blood were a factor, then Ishmael and Esau should be included, but they are not.
The promise to Abraham was unconditional because it was concerning the one seed who is Christ. The promise to Israel was always conditioned on their obedience to God's law.

"This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
The only way that the Nation of Israel can be included in Abraham's unconditional promise is to meet the condition of their covenant and obey God. God's covenant with National Israel was not unconditional.
This verse is the foundation of the covenant! Everything else following must be build on that conditional foundation. Read Jeremiah 18, and Jonah, for examples of unconditional prophecy, even when God did not clearly state the conditions in that prophecy. He always assumes, what he had said earlier.
Now that is true, almost!
It is true that Christ is our promised land, however that does not mean we get no land.
Jesus said, the meek will inherit the earth!
Paul said,
Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Abraham even knew that God was not referring simply to what he saw!
Heb 11:13 All these people [Abraham] were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth.... 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
We tend to limit God to the letter instead of the Spirit! We need to do what Abraham did, broaden our scope of visionary prophecy! Dispensationalism is far too narrow. Abraham was not looking for a city on this earth, he was looking for something far greater.
And Abraham will not go there without us, because the writer of Hebrews also wrote to the church;
18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;
22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God.... 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant

Him who overcomes [church] I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away... 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God... There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. I am making everything new!"
Amen!!!
3am

Good Stuff Superfundy!
There are tons of examples like that.
But you have to have your eyes opened by Christ in order to see them.
Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him."

2 Cor 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Dispensationalists and their pre-trib rapture, are studying the Scriptures like the Israelites who wanted a veil over the Bible. They cannot deal with the reality of Christ in the unfolding of Bible Prophecy!
What a pity!
Keep up the good work, Superfundy!
3am

Amen, here's another good one for the classical dispensationalist to explain. Especially them that insist that the Church was unheard of in the OT:

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

in the Mill Reign, there will be many babies born , who will be under the rule of Christ the King,,,,,,,,,and He will rule them with a rod of iron

a Few of those babies will get born-again..............Many will not, and a GREAT rebellion, led by satan will be defeated at the End of that 1000 years............

THEN, sin will be no more..........no more sin after THAT..........and we go into an ENDLESS DAY, ETERNITY FUTURE

-Amen.

Why on earth would God save a bunch of Jews after the rapture, physically, not spiritually. And then let them live miserably in sin for 1000 years? They would be miserable because peace only come through the born again experience with Jesus. That is a spiritual not physical thing. I already explained that in another post.
Then he lets them have babies, only a few of which will some how get the gospel preached to them, but the Gospel is spiritual, and all of he spiritual people are gone only the physically saved left. So who is going to preach the gospel?
Why would God allow Israel to live in misery for 1000 years and then destroy them all?
And the phrase "rule them with an iron rod" actually means to smash them to pieces like pottery. See Psalm 2.

All of the promises made to Israel will be fulfilled in Christ and his church!
"For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ" (2Cor 1:20).
That makes so much more sense to me.
Keep your eyes on Jesus!
3am

Yeah they will definitely be born of water and of the Spirit, this is required to enter the kingdom (John 3).

Whether their children will be or not is a debatable issue.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And at the end of the MK satan is released for a short time to tempt them, so there will be some that aren't "saved" obviously.

OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES---FULFILLED IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

FULFILLED MESSIANIC PROPHECIES.

PROPHECY:
The ELECT NATION ISRAEL shall seek The MESSIAH in the latter days.
Hosea 3;4,5

Hos 3:4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Hos 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.


FULFILLMENT:
John 18;37
Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Romans 11;25-27
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Thanks to our LORD JESUS CHRIST, our King (of kings) has come!
He will save Israel in the latter days, when she will return, and seek the Lord.
Jesus Christ is from the line of David, their King.
“Israel shall come in anxious fear to the Lord and to His Goodness and His Good things in the latter days.” (Amplified Bible).

Sion (Zion) is Jerusalem (the city of peace)………….Salem means peace. Genesis 14;18.
The Deliverer will come from Zion,…………Zion (Jerusalem) is the Chosen City of the God of Israel.
Salvation is of the Jews.
The Deliverer is the God of Israel.
The Deliverer is our Great God and Savior , the Lord Jesus Christ.
He is the Seed of David, the Root of Jesse, and the Only begotten Son of God.
Descended from Abraham, Issac, Jacob/Israel, and Judah.

He is both God and man………Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Israel was without the Land, King, prince, and sacrifices,…….from 70AD to 1948AD.
Now, she is Returning to the Promised Land in un-belief.
She will soon come to faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. And so all Israel will be saved. Romans 11;26.


Praise the Lord!


see
The Hope of Israel Baptist Mission----324 Messianic prophecies
http://www.hopeofisrael.net/index.php?opti...9&Itemid=27

I agree with most of this.

The issue however is whether messianic jews will inherit the promises to the Fathers by accepting their messiah.

I believe it to be not only unscriptural to assert that they wont, but just plain illogical.

you're still missing the point!

these jews are NOT Messianic,..........they are a special group, by themselves...........
they did NOT believe UNTIL they saw Christ...........(VERY DIFFERENT FROM BELEIVING BEFORE CHRIST'S RETURN).

jews who believe before seeing christ are christians , just like you and me and Apostle Paul

jews who believe AFTER seeing christ are not christians, but they will be saved (it's another type of salvation)

They are also in the Church. Thats where your missing it. In or out of the Church, they are still Israel.

The remnant of Israel is still Israel, and that remnant is in the Church in this dispensation.

You must rightly divide.



Yes but all from the same nation. Just as I do not become a Jew when i get saved, so a jew does not become a gentile. (in any way)



You can keep ignoring this scripture just like I can keep quoting it till you get it:

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

Perhaps this is why you are so vehemently against predestination doctrines??



Another "type of salvation"???

Sheesh, your skirting the edge of heresy here.

Your right, they are NOT going to be members of the Church, because by that time the door will be shut.

You seem to be missing the point.

THAT IS YET TO BE SEEN.

Lets get ONE THING STRAIGHT.....Jesus tells us also, that whomever we show mercy he will show mercy...