Scoffers of the last days: WHERE is the PROMISE?
I just heard something I thought was so interesting. Seems my habit lately to have stuff jump out of passages in scripture that I have read hundreds of times before.
Read the following passage:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Notice that the scoffers will not be saying "When is He coming?"
Nope - they will be saying WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING?
I had always read that as the former.
But now what precisely have we seen?
We have seen men and women who say that the PROMISE isn't in the bible! "Where does it say that?" or "It doesn't say that in MY bible!"

Ever notice what happens when you show someone where the promise is? Notice how they'll brush off your words?
The next verse tells why: they are WILLFULLY ignorant.
What is a characteristic of a lot of the people you've encountered who get into full-on "pretribber bashing", to the extent where you'll be called "apostate", "heretic", (and my personal favorites) part of the "last days deception" and "Wh*re of Babylon"?

Scripture says these people (who are willfully ignorant) - the ones that claim they just can't SEE the promise - that they are following after their own lusts.
I don't know as I would have the nerve to make that accusation myself, nor that I would make it generally. But the bible says it.

Anyways, I just thought that was so interesting. That the people who deny the rapture basically will say "I don't see that. Where does it say that?"

WHERE IS THE PROMISE? Here's the promise. There's more, but here's a start:

John 14:2-32 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."

Acts 1:11"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."
By MonkeyWeather.........................................benny

Scoffing is rampent today .... and many who come in the guise of Christianity are doing exactly what Benny is saying. Watch how they deny the Lord's "harpazo" action and its timing ..... the denial of the Lord's own words and promise on the subject. They then fill the void with all sorts of pre-wrath, post wrath, no wrath, it all happened in 70 A.D. junk and various other twists. These who come in the name of the Lord are deceivers and those being deceived just as He said they would come. These are the scoffers of the last days ..... the tribulation seekers ..... knowingly or unknowingly.

Good eye benny

I think it is possible to believe in a bodily 2nd coming of Christ, without believing in all the 'last days' teaching and 'rapture' stuff that only began in the early 1800's!

VERY TRUE ONESINUS ITS FUNNY HOW PEOPLE THROW OUT SHOW MUCH OF THE BIBLE TO PICK UP A DOCTRINE THAT COMES FROM AND ELDERLY LADIES DREAM AND SHE SAID THE DREAM FELT EVIL

There is no need to discuss each other on those type of subjects. We already have biblical miracles enough in order to be convinced that there is more, and on a certain moment in time, there will be the Kingdom of Heavens. Saying that it's near has already been done extensively in the New Testament by Jesus and John the Baptist, and the disciples. Without giving specific dates. Lots of people predicting it for their own time in history have already made fools of themselves trying to prematurely try to find out for themselves the moment as soon as they give dates when it should happen. Examples of this date back centuries already. The things predicted by Jesus are types of events that already suggest a long timespan from the human or historiographic point of view.

Jesus Himself says that there are very righteous people who never witnessed a miracle. People of any lifestyle could witness them as soon as they were in His presence. They didn't have to wait for long. The Farizees got their share of witnessing miracles as well, and they managed somehow to interpret it as devilish. Getting convinced is not for everyone dependent on witnessing a miracle!! Depends strongly on your background. If there is already a demand for Jesus for some reason in the own background, then one would interpret the miracle as coming from God. Otherwise perhaps not. Miracles and signs are for the materialists who need to be convinced of more than the earthly alone. It could happen through miracles, but also through the "Jonah sign", just by believing a prophetic urge to convert and first showing that one is ready for a religious lifestyle by adopting it, practically.

It's all about righteousness and justice, the Truth, or behaviour that is in line with it. Miracles may be something one can misinterpret with injustices in the mentality.

Greets, Divinespark

My understanding of "scoffers" are those that don't believe in God, not those that don't agree with the rapture doctrine. They scoff at the idea of Christ, at the idea of salvation, at the idea of an eternal life.





What "they are willingly ignorant of" isn't the promise of a rapture. As Peter tells us their ignorance is about the "heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" That statement had nothing to do with rapture.


I don't believe in the rapture doctrine and have never tried to bash anyone's beliefs....I do try to point them in the opposite direction because I feel that it is a very dangerous deception.





As shown above....those that are willfully ignorant aren't ignorant of rapture. That wasn't the subject. You could easily turn around your statement and say....those that believe in rapture just can't see the truth and they are following their own lusts - rapture!




Your scripture from John is perhaps taken from one of the Bibles that promotes rapture. My King James writes the scripture as:


John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4.And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know."


The word "Mansions" as used in that scripture (not "rooms" as yours is written), means "resting place" or "to abide." He became our resting place. He became our Sabbath.


Mark 2:27 And He said unto them, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.


So....from that I understand the scripture as He is our resting place and we, those that believe in Him, have that rest in His Father's House....we are part of the House of God.


Your Bible writes John 14:3 as, "3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am." That completely changed the meaning of the scripture. He did NOT say that He would come back and take us to be with Him but rather....I will come again, and receive you unto Myself. He is coming here....we aren't going anywhere. He will receive us on earth (if we are still living at that time.)


Your Acts 1:11 quote - "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go." into heaven," is a little different in wording than King James but wasn't taken down a different road....the meaning appears to be the same. However, it has nothing to do with rapture. He will come back the same way. Why do you associate that scripture with a rapture?


.........Whirlwind

There are those that hold on to the law of the old testiment and some that hold on to the Sabbath being on Saturday. First the Bible tells us that we are not under the law in the new testiment and as for the Sabbath, there were many Sabbaths, not all were Saturday. So who is right?

I see many scoffer's in the last days, who are saying where is the promise. The promise is already come, and is Jesus. He is coming again just as the Bible tells us.

damo7




as i was reading what the op put in their post i am reminded of how the pharisees and how they often seeked signs to see if jesus was the son of god and jesus was very good at catching the pharisees out i like what Jesus was saying in Matthew 23


25 woe to you teachers of the law and pharisees you hypocrites you clean the out side of the cup
and dish but inside they are full of greed and self indulgance

26 blind pharisees first clean the inside of the cup and dish and then the outside will also be clean




Matthew 16


Peters confesion of christ


and i tell you that you are peter and on this rock i will build my church and the gates of hades will

not overcome it


9 i will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven

whatever you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven


by what is being said we will have these people living among us scoffers will seek after their own lusts and will have their feet in both camps and we are just going to have to keep our eyes on jesus and not what is going on around us the promisses are written in plain ink for those who truely believe and put the kingdom of heaven first when we do this god will do the rest he will make sure our every need is being met


Numbers 13

11 the lord said to moses how long will these people treat me with contempt how long will they refuse to believe in me in spite of all the miraculas signs i have performed among them



Matthew 16 the demand for a sign


1 the pharisees and saducees came to jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven


and hear is jesus responce to what was being asked by the pharisees and by the saducees

4 a wicked and adulterous generation looks for miraculous sign but none will be given it except the sign
of jonah jesus then left them and went away

Matthew 12

40 for as jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

41 the men of nineveth will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it for they repented at the preaching of jonah and now one greater than jonah is here


so both god and his son jesus dealt with this god was ready to strike the people down and poor moses found him self in the midle pleading with god asking him to re think what he is about to do moses new he was dealing with a power full god yet the people god helped escape from pharoes grip showed no respect to god they constantly complained even though their needs were being met and god even provided them light

how stupid and how selfish can a group of people be man if i was their back in that time i would not dare do what the israelites did if only we had died in Egypt or in the desert why is the lord bringing us to this land only to let us fall by the sword


people are not stupid and only the holy spirit can convict and change how a person thinks i dont waste my time with scoffers



god bless from your brother in the lord damo7

I am wondering why this is here instead of in bible study or whatever?

Well, let me just say that I "saw" the promise of his coming prior to the tribulation, and I "see" where it comes from in the scriptures, and how it is supported. I simply believe it to be in error, and I happen to have allot of early Church believers who agree. You have taken a reference to unbelievers, and twisted it to prop up your beliefs.

Being willfully ignorant of the judgement of the flood, is typical for unbelievers today, and has a direct correlation to the second coming and the day if the Lord judgment. You know, the one Jesus said would come upon them suddenly, on the same day that we are taken (Luke 17:26-37), and that they would not escape?



You are misinterpretting this because your ignoring the context.

He is in no way referring to the ascention when he says he is going away, nor is he in any way referring to the second coming when he says he will come back.

Please read the context which begins at the end of chapter 13, to find out where he is actually talking about going away to, and where he is actually talking about returning from. It will also tell you how he was going to prepare a place for you, and you will then understand "when" you will be in heaven with Him. Remember, if you die prior to the rapture, you will be coming back to earth with him.

"And the way you know."



This only requires a visible return.

It is the twisting of scripture like this that is slowly destroying the classical dispensational framework in the minds of believers. You should really be more careful. There are far better verses of scripture upon which to base the pre-trib rapture. The only problem is, you cannot read them in the context of the rest of scripture, and actually accept them as being that. But at least the interpretations can be validated.

[edit to add] If pre-tribbers WERE more careful, perhaps you would see less "pre-trib bashing" as you call it.

I like to call it what the bible calls it.... "reproval, rebuke, and exortation".