What you do not realise is that I am NOT talking replacement theology. But the Bible teaches (as I have shown with Scripture) that we are linked . What happens to Israel, happens to us as well.

Or do you have another explanation for; :1Co 10:11 Now these things happened unto them (Israel)by way of example; and they were written for our(spiritual Israel) admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages (plural, because we are now also at the end of such an age) are come.


If you do, then let us hear it..........

You are doing it again. Learn to know the difference. The Body of Christ will not even participate in the tribulations on the earth. These will be immortal and located in heaven just as Revelation presents. Some will turn to the Lord during His hour of trial, but very few, and most of these will be beheaded for their faith by the beast. Only the some of believing remnant of national Israel will be guaranteed protection during the period ..... the 144,000 Israelites, the Lord's two prophets, and those of the believing remnant that flee "Judea". There is no guarantee for a any other human who becomes a believer during the period. In fact, just the opposite ..... beheading will be their fate. You have read my posts before on this issue so I will not repeat.

I see someone ignoring your scriptural proof.....lol! The truth just has a certain "ring" to it.....Great posts, C.

Well think as you like. I understand Deborah was a judge as was Barak and others..in fact during her judgeship it was a co chair position with Barak and she did a commendable job. Nonetheless, since the time of Paul things have been accorded differently. That is always the distinction. What are the Divine perogatives during a dispensation.
Now I do believe women can teach. And I do believe they can effectively teach men but that is not what Paul is saying. He is saying when push comes to shove, the man will have authority. If all are in agreement, the woman's word would never be questioned and she can be an effective witness, pastor, teacher.
But in the case of the two witnesses, there will be no one except God that will have authority over them and He has already foreshadowed that it will be two men. One to counter the anti christ and one to counter the false prophet. These are the teams.

The Joshua like anti christ slayer and the builder like Zerrubabel. One must assume the builder like Zerrubabel is Elijah the prophet because Scriptures specifically indicate that Elijah the Tishbite (Converter) will return to bring the hearts of the Fathers and Children back together again (Builder of Relationships)

Additionally, Elijah has already confronted the forerunners of this final conflict.
Ahab the thieving leader/anti christ and Jezebel the harlot Church. Now, surely people underestimate the pressure that that situation had on Elijah as it seems some do the future job of the two witnesses. Even then, the pressure was so great, Elijah wanted to die...he thought he was the only one left and with good reason because satan marginalized Elijah by making sure he had no friends, little sustenance and no comfort for years on end....

So if satan marginalized Elijah to such a degree then, he will once again be marginalizing the two witnesses to the same extent...and Scripture indicates this in an off hand way by saying that they will hated by everyone. Now I sure Elijah is a good guy so it just shows what they will be up against.

The mission they have is also prefigured by Aarron and Moses with similar miraculous events occurring. All indications are that they are going after an apostate harlot church who is leading God's people astray --Jezebel. And after the likes of Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses and were thought to be the evil magicians.

The two prophets will be mortals because they will be killed and will need to be resurrected by the Lord. The Lord always sends prophets to Israel when the nation is beset with coming tribulations. These two prophets will come in advance of His intent to recapture the earth from the rule of fallen humanity and to establish His millennial kingdom. They will serve the Lord in the streets of Jerusalem during the beast's rule over Israel for 42 months. They will be supernaturally protected during their witness.

Satan's two horned beast, the false prophet, is actually a fallen angelic and he will manifest in two human clerics who will administer the cult of the first beast of revelation who is also a fallen angelic. The two horned prophet will be satan's attempt to mimic and off set the Lord's two prophets. The first beast will manifest in the little horn of Daniel's visions who will arise out of the "sea" of the Middle Eastern inhabitants. He is the human king of the northern Middle East. This human king and ten other kings (10 horns) will conquer the Middle East and will attempt to conquer the rest of the world. The two clerics of the false prophet will appear in the land (holy land), of Israel at the time of the end and they will cause the followers of the first beast to worship him as a god.

Good points, especially about being marginalized. I can only imagine the things people will be saying about them to trivialize what they are doing and even to make people believe that they are of Satan. The comparison with Moses and Aaron is a good one, too. I think a lot of people don't make that comparison because they expect one of them to BE Moses.

I picture them working to bring the Jew to Christ, to a knowledge of their Savior and Redeemer before He comes at the Second Coming. I know there are a lot of people who see their mission as being completely toward what's left of the Christian church at that point, and I imagine that's part of it. They'll be teaching truth for anybody who doesn't have it and needs to hear it.

oh gosh...and we wonder how the church could despise such a
ministry...hmmm

Oh!!!!!! My favorite subject!

Yep. All grown up, thought hey might not have been grown up when they arrived and had to grown up here. I believe they arrived #1 at the time of Enoch when Enoch was "transfered" and #2 at the time of Elijah when Elijah was "transfered".

I believe they know each other and deal with times as they change and are immortal becasue Satan's eyes were turned to this planet to tempt and he missed the others. We are a remnant for a larger picture just and the Jewish people were the remnant for a smaller picture. Though I am not sure if they get along with one another or not....

But I do understand physics and closed systems and, well, it makes sense to alot of things in history.

And yes, I pray for them every day.

You guys only THOUGHT I was sane!

Leia

If you want to help them out you can pray for the heavens to be shut up for 1260 days. You can Pray for the Lord to bring this thing to a close. You can rejoice with them that the physical kingdom of God is just over the horizon.

Revelation 18
20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

1Timothy 4:1-6 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Agreed. Praying out of God's will can get you nothing at best and in a "real spot" at worst.

For as long as I can remember, when I lay down at night a wave of sadness so deep it brought tear overcame me. I prayed for the children. I was way to young to even think about having any at the time. For decades it went on. Tired, go to bed, the sadness, the tears and then sleep.

Then the water covered India and the bodies of the children were lined up covered in sheets and I cryed for days. Now, the nights have no crying. For years, I believe, God wanted someone to interceed for those children....to perhaps stop the idolitry and suspend wrath. A friend lived in the area and saw so much evil and Satanism that he who wasn't a christian ran to the Lord of safety and came back a saved man. But they didn't change.

Was that praying out of God's will? No. I didn't know what Iwas praying for, like the night he woke me to get on my knees and pray for "the man" and the next mornining he was dead at the doorway to the farm from a car accident. I didn't know the man either.

And I feel led to pray for the witnesses enough to wonder about them for years. What type of people are they? Where are they now? Have they always been here? Are they married? Do they live normal lives of in the wilderness until they are needed? Do they have families that love them?

Can't explain it, but they are a passion. Not scriptural perhaps....I have to confess that. But it is a personal thing and you asked the question of what we "think".

leia

for years i heard a baby cry...i cried over this for so long
and not unlike you...got birthed in me a ministry of intercession,
sometimes called the ministry of tears

He asked me to pray for the children, so i did
then He settled me and asked me to pray for the children of God, so i did
then a trip to Israel,
and He asked me to pray for the children of the Book, so i did

then, in 1996 He showed me the world in a vision...

it was at first what looked like a candle coming up from the east
behind the cityscape of New York at night. as i watched a mist
covered the landscape then things begin to spin around and instead of a
candle i saw His hand coming out of the mist holding the earth,
so i prayed, and I asked Jesus to come quicklyl

when i started praying, and understanding...the baby stopped crying.


God will use a willing vessel to pray for the unknown at times, and
i believe that there are people that pray for us at times that we will
probably never know about.

The Jewish observance of Passover calls for a cup of wine to be placed
on the table for the Spirit of Elijah...for they believe that when Elijah comes
the Messiah will follow shortly after. This has been a tradition for centuries,
and a prayer of sorts for deliverance.

blessings,
signet

the word that came with the vision was from James 4:10.

"Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up"

signet

With the proposition that the two prophets are a "corporate" world-wide groups of twos, like Jesus sending out the disciples 2 by 2, except this time everywhere...

I'd have to laugh if they were literally children.

(He likes to use the weak to put to shame the strong, the foolish to confound the wise.)

The Lord will receive glory, be they two or 288,000.

In Christ,

Mike


www.OneArk.org - 'cause it's important to know.

Oh, it would not be unusual for the two witnesses to be more than two people...there is a very good argument that they are two organizations, but even still there are so many layers to God and it is not unusual for it to be both a physical person, witness, and an more complicated meaning.

Such as your "baby" illistration. A child will lead them..... it is a tale of what will be happening at the later days and we look to childlike faith....we look to a real child....and sure can't miss that El Nino is kicking up alot of uss lately.......

layers and layers like an onion as one of our family here on the forum put it.

Perhaps it is for only that reason that the feeling is strong to pray for the persons of the two. So many things they will endure for their faith.

leia

Moses brought the true Word of God to the people from Mt. Sinai.

Elijah confronted the false gods of Baal and the Asherah on Mt. Carmel.

Could it be that the 2 witnesses will do the same thing? History repeats, right?

Like Moses---they will bring the TRUE Word of God...not the watered down-world loving-prosperity seeking-sin allowing-lukewarm "God loves everyone" claptrap of todays religious leaders...but the flesh crucifying-carnality killing, all or nothing , red hot gospel of Jesus Christ.

Like Elijah---they will confront the false religious systems that man has created..from Catholicism to Apostate protestantism--to denominationalism--all Harlotry will be challenged and just as Elijah beheaded the prophets of Baal...so will this end times ministry destroy the religious leadership that has deceived the people of God for hundreds of years.

Maybe I’m not the first one to say this, for I haven’t read every line of this debate. I believe the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah. For both of them were taken by God and did not die. I too agree that these men have to be alive not angels or spirits of dead patriarchs, for they are killed by the antichrist and raised again. While there are many people who differ on the location of witnesses I believe it is clearly in Jerusalem although there message will be heard and there death seen live around the world. I do not see how this can be regarding more than two, this group of two. If there are several groups of two as some have suggested how will the world see the Two witnesses be put to death. I think the lord speaks clearly when he minions the 144,000 he does not say 2 and when he says 2 I believe he means two. I am by no means a biblical scholar though I do study the bible as much as I can. There are times in the bible when the lord speaks in parables (often it says it is like... or remember the parable of...) but I believe there was an actual flood, resurrection, and an actual second coming. maybe im just rambling on here. U am not trying to disprove anyone here, or say they are wrong. I also am not stating what I say is gospel and the only way. But I do firmly believe God keeps his word and which ever way he does it will be directly reveled as the same way it is found in the Bible. Also do not put too much focus on the witnesses they are only men who speak the word of God rather seek God and in time maybe it will be reviled to you.

P.S. This is my first post, though it doesn’t seem like it because I have been following this site for a long time.
- Godbless

The two witnesses are two prophets ..... two individuals sent by the Lord to Israel during the tribulation period. They will carry out their service in Jerusalem during the last half of the 70th week decreed. The Lord always sends the prophet(s) to Israel in tribulation as in ancient times. These two are not groups or systems of theology as some have and do teach.

Yes they are definitely two corporate groups. This time round (as the Bible teaches us that history repeats:Ecc 1:9 That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. )

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the Lord of the earth.

As we all know: olive trees and candlestick BOTH speaks of the believers or chosen. Both are symbols for the church and for Israel: Thus: these two witnesses are the church and end time Jewish remnant that goes out into the world with the gospel of Jesus Christ. The fire in their mouths are simply the Word of God being spoken with power.

But if there is "no new thing under the sun" wouldn't the two witnesses be two entities? It would be a new thing if they were a group.




My question is, are 2 whole churches going to lay dead in the street for 3 1/2 days?


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


Also, if this is the 2 churches, the next verse to me would sound very odd.


Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


That would be a lot of dead bodies. Just doesn't fit, I think. Plus, explain the following verses:


Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God [Lord] of the earth. In Zechariah 4:3, 11 and 14 these "two witnesses" are the "olive trees" that are spoken of there:

Zec 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.

4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

And the 2 candlesticks are the 2 churches.

So, I see 2 beings and 2 churches.


.......Whirlwind

Darrin,
I'm glad you spoke up! I read posts for a while, too, before actually posting. Welcome to the forum, though!

Then I guess the Body of Christ must also fall into that group of a "new thing" and so cannot be too? seeing that it was not before Jesus.
Sorry,I mean this respectfully, but I find your arguments just a bit confusing. Maybe its me being dull, but I cannot seem to get the point.

C

I understand....I can't get your point either C. It's is as if we are in two different worlds and that is also said respectfully.


If the two witnesses are as I believe they are - Moses and Elijah, then they are two entities. They were an entity before they were transfigured and will be an entity again when they come to witness. If they are a group (corporate) then it would be a new thing.


I see what you are saying about the body of Christ. However, God has always had a body of believers so it would not be a new thing. (believe me, I don't want to get into a Trinity discussion but you understand what I mean).


My point would be there are groups but there are also singular beings. Two of which are Christ and Satan. I can't understand the melding of those two into groups. Again, there are bodies of believers but they are the leaders of those bodies. I don't believe Father tells us that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a group, nor do I believe He tells us that the devil is a group.


.......Whirlwind

Jerusalem was never called Sodom and Egypt? I think you need to recheck this please.

Isaiah 1: 9-10
The Daughter of Zion is left like a shelter in a vineyard, like a hut in a field of melons,
like a city under siege. Unless the LORD Almighty had left us some survivors, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom; listen to the law of our God, you people of Gomorrah!

Isaiah 3:8-9
Jerusalem staggers, Judah is falling; their words and deeds are against the LORD, defying his glorious presence. The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom[/u]; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

Jeremiah 23:14
And among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. [u]They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah."

Lamentations 4:6
The punishment of my people is greater than that of Sodom, which was overthrown in a moment without a hand turned to help her.

Ezekiel 16:46
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

Isaiah 31:1
Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Deutoronomy 29:16-29
16 You yourselves know how we lived in Egypt and how we passed through the countries on the way here. 17 You saw among them their detestable images and idols of wood and stone, of silver and gold. 18 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison.

19 When such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and therefore thinks, "I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way." This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. [a] 20 The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven. 21 The LORD will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.

22 Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the LORD has afflicted it. 23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: "Why has the LORD done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?"

25 And the answer will be: "It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. 26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. 27 Therefore the LORD's anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. 28 In furious anger and in great wrath the LORD uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now." 29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.


There are more passages but you may want to tkae a closer look. I think you are mistaken on this point.

Jerusalem is the "city" where the Lord's two prophets will opperate during the last 1,260 days of the 70th week. Some attempt to deny this truth by suggesting falsehood that contradicts scripture. Like: The Lord was crucifed "outside" of the city of Jerusalem or that Jerusalem is never referred to as Sodom and Egypt in the Bible. Both are deliberate attempts to deceive for the purpose of supporting another gospel .... and not the scriptures of the Bible. The first is a trivial slide of hand trick and the second is a direct contradiction. If one knows the scriptures you will catch those who do this time and time again as they struggle to present their corporate dominion theologies.

(Rev.11:8) And their dead body lies in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. Babylon is identified as spiritual Sodom. (Isa.13:19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

A footnote in the Zondervan Received Text says this word is “body”. The numeric pattern proves the Greek word for body, carcass, or corpse is authentic: Thus corporate

(9) And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do [men] look upon their dead body (singular for the same reasons as above) three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. This last usage of “bodies” is correct in all of the manuscripts and numerics. That can only lead us to one conclusion. The witnesses are a “body” of people that is made up of many “bodies”.

...........................
Your next point. You claim that Jesus was not crucified outside Jerusalem:...but the Bible disagrees with you:

(Heb.13:11) For the bodies of those beasts whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest [as an offering] for sin, are burned without the camp. (12) Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered without the gate.

..............................

Sorry, you have an opinion, but I have scripture.

read here more about the Two Witnesses: LINK

You go, C!!!!


leia

Love you leia.

How's the harp?

C

I just thought I would like to make this other point clear

i DO NOT believe the " dominion theology" which says that beleivers are suppose to take back the nations of this world or this country by electing or raising up christian leadership and changing laws and getting physical control of anything to take it back for christ.

I believe that we are not of this world but are in it, that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places and that we are not to fight with flesh and blood, nor are we to try to transform or save the world in any respect but we are to preach the gospel to men in all nations bringing the kingdom of God unto them so that they can die to this world and come to the kingdom of God also.

i believe that the " dominion" that we have is the dominion of Christ as we are in Him and Him in us. that we are restored to the dominion that was taken away from adam and eve in the garden and there is a study on that in the testimony section people can read for what i beleive if need be for their knowledge or curiosity. it is in the child birth testimony.

As far as the five fold ministry I do believe in that. I believe it is wholey unscriptural to have singular pastors or preachers with no one else. I believe that these are not postions for people to lord over others but to serve others each in his position for the good and perfecting of the body of Christ. I do not believe that anyone is above scriptural scrutiny or guidlines but we are always to follow the instructions that the word says on these matters. I beleive everything we are taught we are to go to the word of God and search out and prove true and pray about and confirm in the word of God by two or three witnessess and we are to make sure scripture does not anywhere contradict and if it does it gets thrown out.

I believe these positions and services, we well as the gifts of the Spirit are all given for the good of the entire body of Christ and we all serve the body of Christ in the individual ways the Lord by the Spirit has called us to and gifts us in. I do not believe these are gifts or positions that man can give you or ordain you to outside of the Lords calling. I do not believe that going to a bible college or school or getting any form of degree makes you qualified for anything in the body of Christ.

Anyone who suggests they are beyond question exalts themselves and throws down Christ, but we do need to follow the bible and only except a word against an elder with two or three witnessess.

I do believe that the Lord has been and will continue to restore the " five fold ministry" to His body to finish the work in these last days and perpare the body of Christ to come into the fullness of Christ. into One perfect man.

I agree with this 100 %

C

Here is a link, where you all can look for yourself at the word for body and bodies. Its the interlinear Greek and it clearly says: corpse (singular, corporate) and then later corpses (because there will indeed be many bodies , dead from the body of believers)


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterli...NTpdf/rev11.pdf

I also agree with the above posts. I reject the "latter rain" ideology as presented by the charismatics....I reject the "Kingdom now" silliness of the Vineyard.....People try their hardest to lump everyone in a nice. neat category then call them "cult". Those who do this will answer to the Lord. It's just not very wise.

i would like to add a huge study here LOL but i will not do that as most wont read it but there is a couple things i want to show here.

the purposes for " witnessess" in the bible are

1) to condmen a person who is guilt of murder or another crime.
2) to witness an event to be proof that it did happen and is true.
3) to acquit a person who is innocent.
4) to confirm all matters.
5) to prove something even in the word of God true i.e. to establish it.

examples- This is why there are two tablets of the law- they witnessed against a persons sins.

two guilt men witnessed on other crosses the crucifixtion of a rightous man Jesus- their guilt and presence witnessed of His crucifiction in innocence.

many many many times in the gospels- Jesus sent out groups in twos or took two witnesses with him for certian events. He also called them to Himself in twos. He said to them " ye shall be my witnesses" many times these groups of " two by two" were called witnesses or they were taken to be witnessess of things.

it was these groups of twos going into the nations to preach the gospel, that made those people who heard accountable and if they were not recieved they would shake the dust off their shoes to those people and cities and this was a judgement upon them.( i am going to start a new post on this so look for it if u r curious of why)

So they when they were in two's were witnessess to a person or cities rightousness by faith when they accepted the gospel and let the disciples peace rest there- or they were witnessess of those cities guilt if they would not recieve them.

In the law, it was required to have two witnesses to establish the guilt of a murderer to judge him and this is the purpose again the the rev 11 end time " two witnessess". They go out into the whole world ( because judgement is going to come as wrath from God on the whole world to destroy the wicked and these two are sent to be their witnessess to their guilt or innocence.

God sends them with judgements of fire from heaven and stopping of rain so that He can give them the witnesses that are required by the law to destroy and judge men guilty. ( this world will be judged guilty by the law which shows their sin and God gives them the witnesses against or for them that the law calls for.)

Now why do these witnessess get to do these judgements? this is why-

Num 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person [to cause him] to die.

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.


Deu 17:7 [b] The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death[/b][u], and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.


It is the law that when two witnessess were witnessess of your guilt of murder( which all outside of Christ are guilty of having broke the law and being accountable for it all). And it is given FIRST to these witnessess to put the guilty to death.- but in the Lord we do not fight with the flesh, so these judgements are by the power and authority of Christ not with guns and bombs etc..

These are corporate bodies because it is the entire world that will be judged not just physical israel or jerusalem.

If we read it closely it does not say where they are at doing these things, it just says where their dead body will lay.

It says their body will lay not buried seen of all nations ( because they are all over all nations and killed in their own times when each ones testimony is finished whereever they are) 3 1/2 days. Which is 3 1/2 years.
They being to be killed and are continued to be killed and seen all over the world for the last 3 1/2 years of tribulation.( we see days as years all over the bible and we see otehr witnesses for 3 1/2 years in rev.) They resurect at the first resurection when all saints are resurected. This is not a seperate resurection. There are only two resurections, one of the rightous, and one of the rest who go to the white throne judgement.

there is much proof that this is the first resurection and not a seperate one but the best is right there in the chapter- vs 15 shows that this time is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Thanks, I have not seen this before. Now it makes sense why the witnesses will bring the judgements to the world, through the Word. They will be sending out the horses against the world in judgement :Luk 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall in any wise hurt you.
The witnesses uses the power of the enemy and bring it against the world.

Good study!
C

here is more to that all- this may be hard for some to watch your hearts when you read this psalm


Psa 149:1 ¶ Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints

Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.


Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.


Psa 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.


Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.


Psa 149:6 [Let] the high [praises] of God [be] in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; (we know this is the Word of God)


Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;


Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;


Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.



This is also why by the word of God paul was able to blind a man, and turn men over to satan. This is also why by the presence of the Holy Ghost in peter annanias and sapharia fell down dead, this is why elijah ccalled down fire to devour enemies and why the two witnessess in the end can by the WORD OF GOD bring judgement, not by works of flesh like guns and fighting etc..

You know, I have to be honest....I have not taken "time" to pray for them the way you put it. I guess I should. To be even more honest, I have done so much studying on them that I am guilty of being caught up in the study alone and I should be prayng for them.

Thanks for helping me see what I ought to do.

Blessings
EveryEyeWillWee

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What I have to say is of no consequence because no one will believe me anyway, but my ENTIRE WALK AND CALLING is rooted in the Two Witness ministry, who they are, what they do, when they do it, and why.
Part of my calling was to bear witness to the ministry of Elijah.

I've made such explanations and postings regarding this subject on this FORUM, encouraging those who read my commentary contact me personally if their interest is further 'tweaked'. So far, no one has responded.
d09e@sbcglobal.net

who they are what they do and when they do it is not even known by them until God tells them the essence of time and what of their ministry is of no ones concern until it Happens.
there are people who are already looking to kill them. God is not going to reveal where... God would not and will not for any reason tell anyone what only He will tell only them. they are unidentified. For a reason. they are not "celebrities' and God is not going to give anyone a sort of theatrical trailer to exploit them they do not need a pr manager or a producer.

I believe I've found a Biblical "typology" which has some bearing on the identity and/or nature of the Two Witnesses. I'll include it in my following post, so that that post "stands alone" (so that the typology isn't "cluttered").

THE “CAMP”, AND A “TYPOLOGY”

Putting things together, comparing Scripture with Scripture (regarding the topic of the “camp”, and a couple of related topics), I believe I have found a “typology” which, as far as I can tell, has not been noticed before (I very well could be wrong about this, though – I don’t know what everyone “out there” is teaching). The following is essentially just two long sentences. My apologies.



If this interpretation is correct, then this would imply that the Two Witnesses are (or will be, depending upon how close we are to the “last” of the “Last Days” [prior to the Tribulation]) part of the Church, but that their ministry will be sometime AFTER the Rapture of the Church. It would also imply that one of the Two Witnesses is a Jew (physically descended from Jacob, essentially), and that the other would be a Gentile. Either they will be Old Testament saints (one descended from Jacob, and one either “pre-Jacob”, or else a “post-Jacob” Gentile) sent back for a final “mission”, or they will be two men born during the final generation.

If the latter of these possibilities is the case, then it would apparently imply that the Two Witnesses will be alive at the time of the Rapture, but would NOT be taken in the Rapture. (This would be the “exception” to the general “rule” – like those Christians who are alive at the time of the Rapture are the “exception” to the general “rule” that “it is appointed unto men once to die,….”)

I don’t think I am misconstruing the implications of the interpretation (the “typology”), and I don’t think that the interpretation is any “stretch” of the meaning of Scripture (that is, the comparisons could be made without making any “stretch” of analogy). The interpretation (the “typology”) might be wrong, but it is Scripturally possible (and probable, from what I can tell).

One question which I have yet to answer for myself in this regard is whether “Gentile” would refer, Biblically, only to those “non-Jews” AFTER the nation of Israel was formed. That is, would Enoch, Noah, and the other “’pre-Jacob’ patriarchs” be “among” those described as “Gentiles”. (Personally, I don’t think so, since it seems that all such “’pre-Jacob’ patriarchs” [and their “godly” families, of course] would “qualify” as part of the “root” of the “cultivated olive tree” of Romans 11.)

QUOTE(C @ Dec 23 2007, 09:28 AM) [snapback]138218[/snapback]

Here is a link, where you all can look for yourself at the word for body and bodies. Its the interlinear Greek and it clearly says: corpse (singular, corporate) and then later corpses (because there will indeed be many bodies , dead from the body of believers)


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterli...NTpdf/rev11.pdf .

Well, I checked my own, physical, copy of "The Interlinear Bible (Hebrew-Greek-English)" edited and translated by Jay P. Green, Sr. (Hendrickson Publishers, 2nd Edition [1986]). The Greek text used in the New Testament was, and I quote from the preface,

QUOTE

...the Received Text and was set by Stephen Austin and Sons for the Trinitarian Bible Society in 1976. It is based on The New Testament in the Original Greek According to the Text Followed in the Authorized Version, edited by F.H.A. Scrivener and published in 1894-1902.

This Greek text differs slightly from other printed editions of the Received Text....It also departs in a few details from the Greek text used by translators of the King James Version. In places it has a different reading from that found in the KJV (e.g. Beelzeboul for Beelzebub in Matt. 12:24; sin for sins in John 8:21; flock for fold in John 10:16). In other places it includes Greek words where the KJV translators had none, which they indicated with italics (e.g. the disciples in Mark 8:14; these in Mark 9:42; as though he heard them not in John 8:6).

This text retains a few readings from the Latin Vulgate, two or three without Greek-manuscript authority (e.g. Acts 9:5-6), and one from the Complutensian Bible (I John 5:7). Although we do not accept these as true Scripture, we have allowed them to remain; the appendix must serve as the needed corrective.

I checked their appendix, and one of the changes from the other printed editions of the Received Text is in Revelation 11:9, where "body" is rendered "bodies" (the Greek word translated "body" being "ptoma" [singular], and the new rendering being "ptomata" [plural]).

The King James Version itself, which is based upon the Received Text, reads, in English, "bodies" in Revelation 11:9 in both occurrences of "ptoma/ptomata" in that verse. I would say that at this point, based strictly on manuscript evidence, the original Greek form of "ptoma" in Revelation 11:9 appears to be debatable. However, the context of that passage - and the common sense implications of having all Christians on Earth killed at the exact same time, and having all their dead bodies lying unburied throughout the world - clearly indicates that "bodies" (plural) is the correct form and interpretation (since translating it as "body" [singular] implies a "corporate" body, and the context would then imply all Christians are in view, which, as I implied just above, simply wouldn't make sense).

it is appointed men to die once is talking about spiritualy. dying to sinful ways.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

this talks about Christ entering in to HEaven itself. which sets him apart from those who ascended 'Elijah' it talks about him suffering. but once at the end of the ages (cross) / offered once to bear sins." as it is appointed men to die once -after this judgement-.. using the word judgment to describe the type of dying. the Righteous Judgement of Christ when recieved by a repenting soul causes us to die to our sin....28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
this is talking about him appearing for salvation appearing to those who have died to sin.

those who are dead physically will not return

Pro 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What [is] His name, and what [is] His Son's name, If you know?
Jhn 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, [that is], the Son of Man who is in heaven.*

now we know that Elijah did ascend in a chariot but in heaven where revelation talks about the saints who have died for Christ await the rest of the body. For the word says that by no means will they be made perfect without 'us' the Lord however stated in John 3:13 is the Only one who has ascended to (H)eaven note paul talks about the 3rd heaven so we know there are 3.

i believe that prov and john show a spiritual rule that there is ONLY One who is permitted to pass both ways.

Rev 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed

Hbr 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Hbr 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

no one can enter Heaven without being perfect so Elijah did not ascend into the same heaven Jesus did. because those who have served the Lord but are in heaven are waiting for us all to be made perfect together.
so proverbs and John 3:!3 "say" the only ONe who has ascended is also the only one who has and can Descend.

QUOTE(allshookup @ Jan 30 2008, 09:03 AM) [snapback]145219[/snapback]

"It is appointed [unto] men to die once" is talking about spiritually, dying to sinful ways.

I don't agree. The context of that passage fairly clearly indicates it is referring to physical death - that passage is in part, can be used as, a refutation of the concept of reincarnation; to say it refers only to dying "spiritually" to sin removes the effectiveness of that verse in refuting the doctrine of reincarnation. More importantly, Christians are right now accounted "dead" to their sins, by their association with Jesus' death and resurrection, thus being "baptized into His death". Those who had died before Christ came, those who were righteous and seeking God, died and went to "Abraham's bosom"/"Paradise" - they were not allowed into Heaven until after Jesus had died and entered Paradise (Jesus said to the repentant thief on the cross, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise"), and He had preached the Gospel to them. After this, the souls of those who had died and had been in Paradise were allowed into Heaven, because all such believed the Gospel upon hearing it, and were thereby forgiven and cleansed of their sins.

The "third heaven" is referring to Heaven, where God's throne is. There are two other "heavens" mentioned in the Bible; and Paul, by describing it as the "third" heaven, was merely distinguishing it from the other two. Those other two "heavens" mentioned in the Bible are: the first heaven, the atmosphere (where birds fly); and the second heaven, the physical Universe beyond the Earth and Earth's atmosphere (the focus of astronomy). The "third" heaven is therefore either non-physical or beyond potential physical observation from Earth, and is the spiritual dimension or location where God's throne is to be found. It is apparently beyond the second heaven, either literally or metaphorically (if the latter, it is merely in another spatial dimension; if the former, then it is located within this physical Universe, but beyond some border within which the Earth and our observable Universe are located [a boundary of light, perhaps, which might have to do with white or black holes]).

If you are saying there is some sort of "holding place" for the souls of Christians prior to the Rapture or to Jesus' return, then all I can say is that I think you are mistaken, but your view is likely effectively or essentially mostly the same as mine, except that I believe the Bible indicates that Christians, upon dying, go to be with the Lord Jesus, Who is Himself in the "third" heaven. The Holy Spirit, inspiring Paul, said, "absent from the body [is to be] present with the Lord". For me, that itself is sufficient proof of the "fate" of Christians upon death.

'fairly clearly' is the key problem with that analysis. although verse can show to have levels and bring to light other truths. if you are going to apply this to the subject of people comng from the past. it doesnt play out in logical critical or spiritual thinking. Lazerous died twice. as many others who have been raised from the dead.
It Is God who endows and empowers his chosen. He doesnt have to bring prophets/disciples from the past to fulfill something just because some christians today idolize them. when infact all of us are children and disciples of Christ as much as any of them . all of us have a calling unique to who we are and only we can fill the place in Gods heart that we were created for. it seems Novel to have Elijah Enoch etc come to the present and inspire us all. Elijah gave his mantel to Elisha and also returned as the Lord prophesied in a sense through John the Baptist. but John the Baptist was John the Baptist and unique tho carrying out teh purpose of Elijahs calling by God He is not lesser than Elijah for John the Baptist fulfilled exaclty all he was meant to. as each part of the Body is and will. full fill only their own destiny. any one of us through repentance and follwing Jesus Christ can carry out anyone of the past apostle preacher teacher prophet disciples spiritual legacy because the legacy is Gods Plan. many in the end times will in the "spirit of Elijah unite fathers and sons and daughters and mothers" but who is elijah. just aman who preached and prophesied Gods heart. but we are still individuals and unique in which way we illuminate His Glory and please Him. God does not have to resurect a person from the past to get the Job done. the job in the OT did not get done merely because of Elijah but because God empowed him. and the Job wil be finished because God will empower those who have been chosen.
Mark 10:37-40 37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”
38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
39 They said to Him, “We are able.”
So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized; 40 but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared.”

article 'James Massa' http://www.ezinearticles.com/?Why-One-Of-T...n&id=621556

Allshookup, here is part of the bio for James Massa:

Called to the office of Prophet, Jesus Christ and God the Father have appeared to me in person and ordained me to be a Prophet in these last days.

I have been visited by Jesus Christ and God the Father on this earth many times, as I have a calling on my life to shake nations with the power of God and herald in the second coming of Jesus Christ.

I have been called by Almighty God to prepare the way and make straight the path for the second coming of Jesus Christ (ie; he thinks he's Ejijah or one of the two witnesses?)

I have met Jesus Christ and many different angels numerous times, as they often visit earth to encourage, inspire and instruct me. Um... OK! o_0

I am a descendent of Abraham and my last name "Massa" is a hebrew word and means: Oracle of God, Harsh Oracle or Prophet of Doom.

My hopes and plans for the future are to herald in the second coming of Jesus Christ and to create a sanctuary for Christians to flee too, when the Anti-Christ rises to power and forces the mark of the beast on the population of the world. Practically declaring himself one of the two witnesses

Last time I checked, when God showed up on earth, it was a big deal.
"And it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of a trumpet exceeding loud; and all the people that were in the camp trembled.
And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
And mount Sinai, the whole of it, smoked, because Jehovah descended upon it in fire; and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly." Exo 19:16-18

You'd think we woulda heard something if He came down again and talked with James.


Can you say, first class internet psychopath? Yup. Guy's on some serious crack cocaine if he thinks God the Father actually visited him.

Dude, so many psycho's out there. Unreal.

Glad I saw this. Forgot to add him to the false (and mentally whacked) prophets website. >_*

researcher,

QUOTE

Can you say, first class internet psychopath? Yup. Guy's on some serious crack cocaine if he thinks God the Father actually visited him.

We shouldn't make that assumption based merely on someone's claiming that God has visited him. (On the other hand, making the claim that one has actually seen God the Father [as opposed to, say, Jesus] "face to face" would be a big red-flag.) I agree that this guy sounds a bit "off", but that is more because of his grandiose claims, and my view that the Two Witnesses will not "trumpet" their calling prior to the beginning of their ministry, and it is my belief that their ministry does not begin until - at the very, very earliest - a few days or so before the start of the 7-year Tribulation.

I myself have seen Jesus (His form, through a fog) in a waking vision (He reached out His hand and touched my forehead); and I have "seen" God the Father ("sensed" His presence, sensed His "form" on the throne) in a dream; and I have had God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit "speak" to me (not audibly - rather, like "speaking" directly to my mind), each on separate occasions, a total of around 12 times (over a period of almost 19 years now) (each time only one short sentence [for example, "You did not love them", and "Learn to love", and "Shabbat. Welcome to My time."]). God can reveal Himself to whom He wishes, in whatever manner He wishes. All of us, one day, will see and hear Him. And, in particular, Christians who are walking in the Spirit have God Himself dwelling in them and guiding them - should it be thought very strange that God would be willing to communicate directly with His children?

To reiterate, though: there are a lot of false - deceiving, and deceived - prophets walking about. The only real test of a person is how they conform to the Word of God, by doctine and by "fruit". No real prophet of God in the Bible that I am aware of "proclaimed" or promoted his own prophet-hood; rather, it was made evident by their words and actions, and by the signs that accompanied some of them. I imagine the identities of the Two Witnesses won't be conclusively revealed until they actually begin their ministry, whoever they are or may be.