Stephen,

There is no salvation or forgiveness of sins outside of Jesus period! And since these witnesses will need forgiveness of sins, as well as all who have ever lived, then it stands to reason that they are members of Christ as well!! ...unless you feel that salvation and forgiveness of sins can be had outside of Jesus?

Earendel,


Taking the liberty to speak for Stephen, I believe he means that salvation is only through faith in Jesus, there are different "groups" who experience salvation - I believe he would say that the Church is composed only of those who have been saved by faith from the time of Jesus until the Rapture, and those who were "Old Testament" believers (either having "forward-looking" faith, or being saved upon Jesus preaching the Gospel to them in "Abraham's bosom" upon His death), and a "fresh" group of "non-Church" believers, those who will come to faith in Jesus after the Rapture. I assume Stephen believes that the Two Witnesses will be two Israelites who come to faith in Jesus after the Rapture.

Earendel,

QUOTE

Have you ever felt the sentence of death, knowing how your life is going to end before it happens?

Yes. And I have also been what I would call miraculously delivered from what was likely death at least two times, both cases involving two semi-trucks traveling around 60-65 mph on a highway. In one case, in 1995, my 1986 Jeep Cherokee started hydroplaning shortly after I passed the second of two trucks, and it did a 180-degree turn, so that I was facing the two trucks (the first truck was almost side-by-side with the second truck at this point, having followed me in trying to pass the second truck) - I was traveling directly backwards, staring down these two trucks, and wasn't scared in the least (I was actually somewhat angry, thinking, "I really don't need this"). After a couple of seconds, my Jeep turned again, and headed (of its own accord, pretty much) towards the left-hand side-rail, and scraped it, slowing down enough for me to regain control. Just as it scraped the rail, the two trucks passed me. In another case, I was again passing two semi-trucks on a highway, this time in winter, during a snowstorm (I think it was in Pennsylvania, and it was in 2002). They were both going under the speed limit, and they were traveling for quite a ways side-by-side. After some time of this, I attempted to encourage the truck in the left-hand lane to go ahead and pass the other truck (so I could get by them both, and for safety's sake [I still don't understand why people don't instinctively try to avoid traveling side-by-side if they can help it]). It didn't take long, and the truck eventually did pass the other truck, and pulled into the right-hand lane. I sped up in order to pass both trucks, and just as I was about nose-to-nose (probably not quite) with the "lead" truck, a large, older car not far ahead of the group of us lost control and ended up perpendicular to the highway in the left-hand lane, its front end near the right-hand lane. The roads were slick (I had a four-wheel drive S-10), and I knew I had only one chance to avoid hitting the vehicle head-on: I sped up, but not too quickly, and pulled over in front of the "lead" semi and missed the car by just a few feet, probably having only a foot or so of space between myself and the semi. Again, I unexpectedly had no fear.

In both cases, I felt that God was not going allow me to be hurt, and I felt that He had a plan for my life that did not involve dying in that way, and I suppose that was why I felt no fear in either case. (I also fell off a two-story roof one time, and again felt no fear [in all cases, it was surprising to me that I had no fear].)

QUOTE

These two must know this, and have to make peace with it. And I would say, if it is I (and I'm not saying it is)...

You're also being very careful to not say that it's not.

QUOTE

I'll go, just as long as I get to have a pure heart and get to love the God of heaven with all of my pure heart, the way that I have foreseen it. Did you know that worship is the highest form of love? ...think about that one.

I don't know that it is. Perhaps it is, but I know that "greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for one's friend" (paraphrased). The Two Witnesses will certainly have a very deep and abiding love for God and for Jesus, and will almost certainly have a personal and powerful experience of salvation, I expect, perhaps not unlike the Apostle Paul.

2 Peter 2
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,

Are they believers before or after the rapture?

There is no rapture. But those who are sealed for destruction by the abomination of desolation will all be sealed and separated by the time the Lord appears and catches His army of saints up into air of earth, who mount up with wings like eagles and fly down on the heads of the enemy.

Panda,

However it goes...aren't you glad that He loves us, and our names are written down in the Lamb's book of life?
I'm looking forward to high praise and worship!! God inhabits the praise of His people!!

those that go to heaven now and even if there was a rapture where he left some christians behind the marriage supper or dressed in white robes would not happen without the Whole body of Christ.

Hebrews 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Amen Earendel

The Lord suffered greatly to show how much He loved us and Show us the way and teach us the truth and be the example of how to live. Everyone who is written in the Lambs book of Life from the foundation of creation will hear His voice and be imitators of God as dear children Praising His holy name in the temple of the body in spirit and truth.







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earendel,

"Are they believers before or after the rapture?"

>These two members of national Israel will become believers after the Lord calls the church. There will be no believers on the earth just before the 70th week decreed begins. These two will have the same status as the 144,000 Israelites who will be mortals and the first converts to the Lord during the period. These will need sealing for protection from the effects of the tribulation period. The two prophets will also have the capacity to remain untouched until the Lord allows for the beast to kill them. We are told very little regarding the Lord's two prophets and their origination in chapter 11 other than that the Lord will give them the power to witness at the onset of the 1,260 days of their service.

>The church will already be immortalized and these will observe the entire tribulation period including the service of the two Israelite prophets. The 24 elders and the great multitude are seen in heaven before the tribulation period begins, during the period, and then seen with the Lord when He moves to destroy satan's beast and followers.

>The two prophets will have the ability to bring many of the Lord's judgments upon the earth during their service. These will not be a large group of humans doing this. Also, their dead bodies will lie in a street of the city of Jerusalem and there will only be two of them, not multitudes of humans. There is nothing in scripture that defines the two prophets as large groups of humans and this idea is only held by those who want to impute the position to their own liking. The same is done with attempting to expand the 144,000 Israelites and with the Manchild [singular] of Revelation 12 who is the Lord. The technique is to multiply and distort the literal meanings given in scripture and to acquire the positions for themselves. When the scriptures state 1, or 2, or 144,000 the reader needs to understand and not to arbitrarily distort the interpretation. When the descriptions are stated as "Israelites" from each of the 12 tribes and the Manchild who "was" caught up to God and His throne ..... in the first century, these meanings are not to be tampered with, but rendered as they are written.

I have been hearing a lot about this manchild doctrine on these boards, and to be honest, I don't know much about it. I guess I have been out of the loop for awhile. I knew Wesley Campbell and David Ruis when they were New Life Christian Center - Fellowship Baptist - in Kelowna BC. They left the Baptists for, and became New Life Vineyard Fellowship, and latter on when they had a falling out with them, something else.

I knew them when they were Baptists, Stephen, and I went to their church and made friends with Tom and Jamie. This was odd because I was a Pentecostal, that I would have close friends with Baptists. But I did, and they were dear friends of mine, and I love them in Christ. I remember confronting Wes in front of his church about his stand on spiritual gifts, (typical baptist) and he told me that they were pretty open there, that if I wanted to raise my hands during service I could do so...that they would not lower the ceiling fans on me, if I decided to, which I did.

They seemed pretty open for Baptists and I liked them. Maybe I planted a seed in them about the moving of the Spirit of God, I know I was pretty adamant about what I told them, I do remeber that. I doubt they remember me though.

Now about this doctine Stephen...

Does it lead people away from Christ and Salvation or not?
Does it acknowledge the diety and Godhead of Jesus Christ?
Does it acknowledge the virgin birth of Christ?
Does it teach people that salvation (Christ crucified) is through Christ alone?
Does it teach repentance from sin and a new ceature/new man/born again created in Christ's image, and holy living to the best of ones ability or does it compromise on these?
Does it teach about Salvation and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, sanctification and irradification of the sinful nature (this is not to say we will not sin, just the wanton willfillness to sin is irradicated) through the Holy Spirit of God, and a close communion with God through Holy Spirit, who is also known as the comforter?
Does it teach high praise and worship of God the Father in the Spirit, while living a holy life?

The only thing that would bother me is, if that doctrine compromised these things in any way.

I think God can overlook some mistakes people make, I truly do...because salvation is not by works, and His mercy is greater the His judgement. And I am the biggest mercy case of all! (if His judgement against sin and error was greater then His mercy, we would all perish) We ought not, therefore, to judge the speck in our brothers eye.

But God does not like compromise, Stephen.
Mr. Ruis, in my humble opinion, should not let leadership people in his congregation play U2 music while on stage in his church. (Winnipeg 1997)
There should be a separation from the world and its influence on Christians. I don't know if he knew about that they did that or not. But I saw it with my own eyes.

Some sins are hard to overlook, like worldly pride and idolatry...this better then thou and spiritually superior attitude, looking down your nose at others that some have. I rebuke that spirit through Jesus! That is not what God has called us to. The Lord grant repentance.

A true move of the Spirit of God calls/leads us to repentence, humilty of mind and spirit, contriteness, gentleness and purity of heart and soul, and to view each other better then ourselves, and that the love of God that burns in our hearts through the Holy Spirit constrains us to love one another. The New Testament teaches us many things about holy living and what God has called us to.

I feel this is my calling, Stephen, to preach and confirm these things I have written. I will stand against anyone with the power of the Holy Spirit who teaches against what I have writen down here.

Earendel,

You can get up to speed on the "manchild" cults and there is a posting with much info with the same title in the prophecy section of the forum. Yes, those you met are connected. One will find these organizations among the Latter Rain teachings. There has been a current revival of the same that was prominent in the 1950-60 era. These movements are usually lead by the cult leader type and there is much mixing of truth and error in their ways. But one who knows the scriptures can easily detect the error of the teachings and can discover the motivations.

Knowing the scriptures are very important, Stephen. And no other foundation can no other lay except that which is already established who is Christ Jesus our Lord. And be careful what you build there upon, but God has called us to peace. Have they led anyone astray, from the Gospel Of Jesus Christ? They have not turned to mormonism, or scientology, or Jehovah's witnesses or some other cult...Not everyone who calls Jesus Lord, will be saved, Stephen. Salvation is predicated upon hearing what the Lord says to you, and doing those these with the ability He himself provides. He has called us to love.

The Latter Rain cult teachings are numerous with different twists and they can and do lead people astray. The deceit is covered, but can usually be exposed by those who know and understand the scriptures. Those with little or scant comprehensive knowledge of the scriptures are vulnerable to the teachings. Many false promises are developed for the purpose of enhancing the cult leader's ambitions at most any cost to the followers. One of the central themes is the idea that the organization's members are the "manchild" of Revelation 12 rather than the Lord Himself. This idea is supported by alleged "hidden manna" mined from the scriptures that is proprietary to the cult leader and the followers. These are now in the process of becoming perfect, invincible, and sinless in the physical body. This elite membership is then to become the "super" apostles and believers of the tribulation who will rule the period and successfully bring in the "kingdom" before the Lord returns. They refute: a purpose for national Israel during the period, the Lord's "harpazo" action for the church, a uniquely individual "antichrist" [satan's beast and man of lawlessness], martyrdom scheduled for tribulation believers, etc.. They also claim ownership of the protected during the period, namely the 144,000 sealed Israelites, the remnant part of believing national Israel that will flee, and the two Israelite prophets. Those who followed these movements in the 1950s never reached their purported destination of development and the tribulation period never came. Movements like this are not new, but have been a part of professing christianity since the first century. The prime basis for moving away from the correct rendering of the gospel is the gnostic mindset that creates the idea of hidden knowledge which can then be used to interpret the scriptures. This behavior opens interpretation up for any contrived meanings used to support the false teaching.

With out looking into this movement too much, I am going to address some of the things you have written down here.

The Latter Rain cult teachings are numerous with different twists and they can and do lead people astray. The deceit is covered, but can usually be exposed by those who know and understand the scriptures. Those with little or scant comprehensive knowledge of the scriptures are vulnerable to the teachings. Many false promises are developed for the purpose of enhancing the cult leader's ambitions at most any cost to the followers.

You seem to know about these ambitions Stephen, can you explain better? Here's what I understand: Do you remember the movie Elmer Gantry? Charlatans, Faith Healers who travel about selling snake oil, who do not know the Lord; these are wolves in sheeps clothing that go about making mechandise of Christians. Their god is their belly, and the love of money is their motive. Spots and blemishes they are, that go about leading sinful lives, professing to know God, and making promises of spiritual gifts to people, which they have no authority to make or give.

You cannot take a newborn in Christ and make such to be a prophet, not yet having repented and knowing the Lord ...even the Apostle Paul adressed this concerning appointing leadership in the Chuch "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. - 1 Timothy 3:6-7

I have seen this, and have discouraged new Christians from thinking of themselves more highly then they ought to, but to be of a humble mind and spirit, humbling yourself in the sight of the Lord. I have shown that such thinking can lead to pride and an attitude of spiritual superiority, which God would not be well pleased with...that to please God, we must remain humble, which means to esteem each other better then our own selves. But who will listen to this?




One of the central themes is the idea that the organization's members are the "manchild" of Revelation 12 rather than the Lord Himself. This idea is supported by alleged "hidden manna" mined from the scriptures that is proprietary to the cult leader and the followers. These are now in the process of becoming perfect, invincible, and sinless in the physical body. This elite membership is then to become the "super" apostles and believers of the tribulation who will rule the period and successfully bring in the "kingdom" before the Lord returns. They refute: a purpose for national Israel during the period, the Lord's "harpazo" action for the church, a uniquely individual "antichrist" [satan's beast and man of lawlessness], martyrdom scheduled for tribulation believers, etc.. They also claim ownership of the protected during the period, namely the 144,000 sealed Israelites, the remnant part of believing national Israel that will flee, and the two Israelite prophets. Those who followed these movements in the 1950s never reached their purported destination of development and the tribulation period never came. Movements like this are not new, but have been a part of professing christianity since the first century. The prime basis for moving away from the correct rendering of the gospel is the gnostic mindset that creates the idea of hidden knowledge which can then be used to interpret the scriptures. This behavior opens interpretation up for any contrived meanings used to support the false teaching.

I see this as manipulation of the sciptures for the pupose of self exaltation and a spirit of superiorty, ...the I'm better then you, and your not good enough to be a part of us, because I'm spiritually superior to you movement...naaa na na na na naaa. Satan's shoe seems to be worn by some of them. Is there such a word as a parachristian?

I spent a good part of my early walk with the Lord with the Church of God of Prophecy, which was birthed out of the holiness movement from the early 1900's, I did not agree with all of their teachings, but there was a powerfull move of the Holy Spirit among them. They taught me humility and holy living, and a pure heart and love toward God. I did not agree with them being the church, to the exclusion of everyone else. I can understand how they came up with that, but I just seen God moving in lives elsewhere also. I understand they dropped that part of their statement of faith.

I have been to TACF and watched some of the display going on. I tried to get into worship there and to see and experience the move of God, but I did not sense the presence of the Holy Spirit there. Maybe it was just me, and I would prefer to believe that is the case. Personally, I cannot leave the presence of God and not be changed inside. I know some people here know what I am talking about, that a true move of God must bring about repentence, regeneration, sanctification, and holy living. I hope they are at least experiencing that. If their leadership are charlatans and unbelievers, God save his sheep among them. What bothers me about what you said, is that the manchild movement, if I'm reading you correctly, believes that only they themelves will usher in Christ, to the exclusion of all other Christian believers who are also filled with the Holy Spirit as well...that if you are not apart of THEM, you can't be saved and be apart of God's kingdom. I hope this is not true or where the are going with their doctrine.

Yes I agree , its sounds terrible, because you are reading the "what it is" from Stephen's view.

Here is the short of it.

The "teaching" (if you can call it that, because it is just basically all the we are taught in the Bible) says: We have been crucified with Christ and no longer live, but Christ now lives in us. We as followers of Christ must lay down our lives and take up our cross daily.
Simple" No more US, but all about Christ. It is about putting Him first, its about submitting to the Word only and not to man. Its about coming out of the world system and walking in faith . Its about not relying on the arm of the flesh and placing all of your faith in God, His Word and promises in that Word . Its allowing God to be the ruler in your life.

This doctrine cannot be accepted by anybody who believes in the rapture before the tribulation, because this also, like all the examples we have in the Bible , brings us to a place of being in the Wilderness. A place of weakness , where all we have is God.

It looks to Christ in the believer as the answer and not the power of the believer in him or herself. Only when we lay down our lives, can God , through the spirit of Christ in us, truly step forward in our lives and be God. In any other case, WE still want to do it, WE still want to do good, WE still want the glory.

The Man child , in Revelation is talking about those who know this and those who through the GRACE of God, not through themselves, has come to a place where they have truly died to self and God can move through them. It is not limited to a special group, it is God's invitation to all His children.

Only one's rapture view will prevent one from seeing this, because if you are sitting on a rooftop, you are not getting ready.

There is of course much more to be said.

Here is a piece of Scripture where Jesus speaks of the church as a "woman" in travail, who will bring Him forth (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory)

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

I am writing this, only because those with eyes will see it. For some this is just a piece of Scripture, for others, it will open something wonderful.

C

Amen to the above post. Stephen doesn't even understand the doctrine of the Man-Child because he mis-represented it in his post.

What did God plant in our soil? The "seed" which is the Word of God.

Who is the Word of God? Jesus Christ, Himself.

What will the fruit look like when it comes to fullness? Christ in you. The fruit we are to bear unto God is His Son, Jesus and all His attributes, His character and His walk, obedience, etc.

This is the Man-Child= Jesus Christ manifested in His First Fruits. This is NOT just for a certain "group" or "sect" as Stephen falsely claims, but as C correctly states, it's an invitation to ALL God's children world wide. However, only a small group come to maturity FIRST...many will follow.

This is basic Christianity.......and C is correct....The pre-tribbers cannot accept this.....it will destroy their idol.

Amen, praise God, it has nothing to do with man or the goodness of man. No works are involved, only resting in a faithful God, Who STILL honors His Word.
Its actually so plain and simple: Rest in God .

C

Yes I agree , its sounds terrible, because you are reading the "what it is" from Stephen's view.

Here is the short of it.

The "teaching" (if you can call it that, because it is just basically all the we are taught in the Bible) says: We have been crucified with Christ and no longer live, but Christ now lives in us. We as followers of Christ must lay down our lives and take up our cross daily.
Simple" No more US, but all about Christ. It is about putting Him first, its about submitting to the Word only and not to man. Its about coming out of the world system and walking in faith . Its about not relying on the arm of the flesh and placing all of your faith in God, His Word and promises in that Word . Its allowing God to be the ruler in your life.

The above sounds great!



This doctrine cannot be accepted by anybody who believes in the rapture before the tribulation, because this also, like all the examples we have in the Bible , brings us to a place of being in the Wilderness. A place of weakness , where all we have is God.

it does not matter to me when the rapture, as it is called, will happen, just so long as it does. I have heard many different views on this, pre, mid, and post. I do not believe that Christians are appointed to the wrath of God being poured out on the world during the tribulation, but I see that there are many martyrs during this time as written in the scriptures. I do not see how if some do not embrace the manchild doctrine will prevent some from going to be with the Lord when he calls His church to him. Whether a person embraces the manchild doctrine or not, will in no wise prevent Christ's redemption of His saints, just because some saints don't understand all things...what will happen will happen, and is not predicated on how we understand, but on the mercy of God alone. So it is not I who wills it, but God who elects (chooses us)

It looks to Christ in the believer as the answer and not the power of the believer in him or herself. Only when we lay down our lives, can God , through the spirit of Christ in us, truly step forward in our lives and be God. In any other case, WE still want to do it, WE still want to do good, WE still want the glory.

I can go with Christ in us, as so do many others too.

The Man child , in Revelation is talking about those who know this and those who through the GRACE of God, not through themselves, has come to a place where they have truly died to self and God can move through them. It is not limited to a special group, it is God's invitation to all His children.

okay

Only one's rapture view will prevent one from seeing this, because if you are sitting on a rooftop, you are not getting ready.

how so?

There is of course much more to be said.

Here is a piece of Scripture where Jesus speaks of the church as a "woman" in travail, who will bring Him forth (Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory)

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

...but I will see you again? Christ's resurrection from the dead, but also the spiritual birth of Christ in us. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Christ being birthed in us, the seed of God, the Spiritual rebirth...Christ is birthed in us and we see Christ in each other, thus.... A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me.


Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name.

I am writing this, only because those with eyes will see it. For some this is just a piece of Scripture, for others, it will open something wonderful.

...isn't the Lord wonderful?

Earendel.

Can you explain the "snatching away"? When will this occur? And why you believe that?

...further to what I have written. If what you believe about the manchild doctrine is just another way of understanding Christ being birthed in us, The born-again experience, then this is a staple of Christian belief in every true believer. The experience doesn't stop there, it furthers in sanctification of the Holy Spirit, regeneration, and walking in newness of life. Holy living and in communion with the Holy Spirit, who is the Comforter... a truly blessed experience.

I pm'd message to C, but will post it here.

I want to know more about your understanding of the manchild. I think I understand what you are saying, but I need clarity. I believe that God is going to move in a very powerful way these last days, that he is going to break denominational barriers and overthrow them, that judgement is coming to His church, as He has said, that His judgement begins with us.

I believe that he is going to take a remnant of believers and purify them...in a very, very special way, (a peculiar treasure) I have seen this. Why? ...because not every believer in Christ is born again, (Catholics) not every born again beliver is filled with the Holy Spirit (Baptists/fundies et al) and have experinced/encountered His power, and not all believers see God doing miracles in this day. Some Christians believe that God only did miracles in the early Church to establish the Church, and that He doesn't do them today. I mean who are we to tell God what He will do? I have even heard some Christians call Pentecostals/Full Gospell believers the last vomit of satan.

I know I am in the remnant that will be purified; I walk in the Spirit and am no vomit of satan, regardless of what some Baptists believe.

Please do not get offended with me when I ask you questions, I only want to understand better, and since I know the witness and power of the Holy Spirit, and have witnessed His visitation to me several times, I will trust Him to be my guide. I can't wait until the body of Christ is united as one. God has truly visited me, with a supernatural visitation, as you have read my testimony, and He is calling me to Himself.

Some of my past visitations I have written down here:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=16110

My testimony here:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=16091

I actually do not know what the big fuss is all about. God is not done with us as some believe, but His ultimate plan is to have manifest sons, as it states in Romans. That is such a clear and simple fact of Scripture. Christ manifesting in the believer. Also shown in many other scriptures . So many that I really do not understand how people can NOT see it

Earendel, I only say this about the rapture, because the tribulation is not wrath. A day (year) of wrath comes after the Tribulation and for that we will not be here, but be in Christ, protected and safe. As you say: Purification is coming , and that , God always do through tribulation. We are in the last times, so the last tribulation will bring forth the sons of God.
I am very aware that many believe something else. I am not even trying to convince them, because they are where they must be in their walk. God is sovereign. Some will see and some will not. We cannot even choose that. God allows us. He calls us.

When we see the purpose of God : Him sowing the Seed (Word ) into our hearts and that Seed is Christ, and seed produces after its own kind: Then we can see what will happen. Some will deny this,and again some will not. That too is in the Word.

I am relaxed about it. God is faithful and will show it to them who must see.

in Christ
C

So far I'm with you C, the church will go through the refiner's fire, but not the wrath of God. Get ready and hang on, press into the Holy Spirit as hard as you can. Beware the delusion...that comes to steal the faith of God's saints. A delusion so powerful, that if it were possible that even the elect themselves would be deceived. And God will try the hearts of man to see if he will still believe...

what? ...still hanging on? Still here? Well get ready for an out pouring of the Holy Spirit of God on the saints that are left, a move of the Holy Spirit that has not been seen...so great will be this outpouring...and repentence and obediance and God's mercy will be key to hanging on. Think you are going to have any personal sins left after the Holy Spirit has finished His work in you? ...but he that endures the trial to the end, the same shall be saved. And what am I to say oh Lord? Where am I going to go from you? I have no other place to go Lord...I have no other place to go but with you. Christians will need to start acting like family and help each other during this time. I pray that God will bring his saints together so they can help each other during this time of trial. The Bride will be as white as snow when she is presented to the Groom.

I see a war coming, this is not the Wrath of God, as described in the book of Revelations, but WWIII, and just prior to the wrath of God being poured out as described in the book of Revelations. 9/11 may have been the first volley, but I see It starting in the Middle East. 10's of Millions across the world will die during this coming conflict, and it will depose the world of all governments as we know them of power, no more democracy, no more communists, no more Christian denominations. The rule/dominion of man is coming to an end, this is the end of this age...the end of Babylon the Great... Babylon will fall, which is to say that man's domimion/rule over God's creation will end. This coming conflict will bring in satans beast, but not before the Saints are purified during revival and made ready. Yes there is a revival coming during this time of trial and deposition of nations, and only those whose names are written down in Heaven will be left at the end of it. The Saints will then be removed, and God's bowls of wrath will begin on an unbelieving world.

There is more to this, perhaps latter.

I agree with you.

also in this:

WWIII is around the corner.

The "wrath" of God is contained in the bowl judgments and not in the seals or trumps.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Since we are not appointed unto wrath, the LAST TRUMP is sounded BEFORE the first bowl.....we are "caught up" in the air to be with the Lord BEFORE the Wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is the "mystery"?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Many Christians seem to think that the Lord sees us all the same. If you are born again, you are as close to Him as you can get....but the scriptures teach something more than this. Did not Jesus separate Peter, James and John from the rest of the disciples to see Him transfigured? Why did He do this? Why did Peter ask John to ask the Lord who the betrayer was? Why was John the only disciple at the crucifixtion?

Like it or not....there are those who are closer to the Lord than others....The Bride is not the virgins........though they are both in the Body of Christ. There is a first fruits company who follow the Lamb where ever He goes.......The Shulamite is a type of the Bride.....Esther is a type of the Bride and i think Peter, James and John are as well.

We were just talking about it today. Also the "friend of the groom" (as John the Baptist said he was )

We spoke about , that God is only coming back for the fruit, He is going to pick the ripe fruit. He is not coming for the plants. As Christ is the Fruit that we must produce, it is for Christ in us , that God is coming back. We all produce fruit at different rates, some 30, some 60 and some 100 fold. Seems like 30 fold is the minimum we are required to produce.

Some say that we are saved by inviting Jesus into our hearts, but the true gospel is : You have been crucified with Christ and no longer live, but Christ now lives in you. Its a far cry from invite Jesus into your heart. To open the door and invite Jesus in , means that we have to accept the whole Word "as is" into us. That means we have to die to self.Only the spirit of Christ is now in us. Without it, we have no part in Him.

The more we realize we are dead , the more we can allow Christ to move and work through us. HE is the Fruit that we must manifest. God is coming back to pick the Fruit.

Right on C! Didn't Jesus curse a tree that it died when it did not have any fruit?

Romans 6:11-12 (New King James Version)
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

Well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but for anyone who claims to be one of the two witnesses will be gravely disappointed for they will not have the powers or abilities that describes them in Revelation. They will not cause a drought, shut up the sky or call fire from the sky to rain down on their enemies.

They can try to dress up in a sack cloth, but no sooner than they start to cause trouble they will be apprehended and tossed in a ward for psychiatric evaluation.

The reason is simple. The two witnesses had already come and have ascended into heaven. They are the two books of the Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament. They had witnessed to all the nations of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in their time, and when they finished they were slain on the day the Bible was outlawed in Europe during the 18th century.

Humble Bob,


And when, exactly, did the people of the nations "rejoice" and "send gifts to one another" due to the outlawing of the Bible in Europe? And when did the Old and New Testaments cause plagues and drought "as often as they desire"? And how can one attribute desire to two books? When did the Old and New Testaments lie dead in the streets of the city "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt" (note that the Book of Revelation says it was a CITY, not a country or nation, or world-system), with the peoples of the world refusing to BURY them? And when did the Old and New Testaments hear a voice from Heaven saying, "Come up hither", and they were then resurrected, and then ascended up into Heaven, their enemies seeing them? What were/are the "3 1/2 days" during which the Old and New Testaments were/are "dead"? When have the Old and New Testaments gone about "mourning" (wearing "sackcloth")? Furthermore, haven't the Old and New Testaments ALWAYS had "power"? Their "power" is contained within them, and does not change - therefore, it makes no sense for God to say He will "give" power to His Two Witnesses, if the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments, because they have always had power, from the moment of their creation. I'm afraid your interpretation just doesn't fit with the Biblical evidence.

I briefly summarize, so please pay attention.

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

These are one thousand two hundred sixty years, not literal days that the two witnesses gave testimony. There is 1260 years between 533 AD and 1793 AD. In March 533 AD, under the Decrees of the Justinian letters, the power of the Papal system is established and enforced by the secular sword for the first time. The system promotes the Gospel of Christ with the Old and New Testament of the Bible, along with the Papal system's agenda, for the next 1260 years.

Revelation 11:5-6
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

During these years the power and influence of the Papal system is vigorous in persecuting heretics against the Bible and the Roman Catholic church. The 1260 years is marked as a turbulent epoch of wars, famines, death, crusades and persecutions through out Europe and all in the name of the church. By the end of the 17th century many loath the RCC attributing the state of their misery to the their political influences by way of the RCC attaching themselves to the Bible.

Revelation 11:7
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

In 1793 the French Revolution had reached a height of violence along with a pervasive hatred for the church. The National Convention was declared and held in November of that year. The people had convened to protest the many centuries that the RCC had oppressed and influenced the denizens of Europe, and openly mocked the RCC and the Papal system's claim of divine appointment by dressing up a donkey (anass) in sacerdotal habit. They piled the religious objects and symbols of the RCC onto the asss and tied the Old and New Testament to its the tail, then leading the donkey in a mock precession. During the time it was was forced to drink the sacramental wine and led through a crowd shouting blasphemous cries with ridicule to the RCC, the Pope, the Bible and Jesus Christ. The long precession had ended when the donkey, led by two sans-culottes, had arrived at their location amidst a fomented crowd who had stacked a heap of devotional books and then set fire to the piled books. The National Convention then coronated a prostitute upon a throne naming her the "Goddess of Reason."

On November 24 1793 the National Convention passed laws banning religion and religious expression including a ban on the Bible. The message of the Gospel as well as it's messengers were killed on that day.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The National Convention occurred in Paris, a city reputed for its occultism and sexual sins in that era; a symbolic Sodom. In the streets of Paris the violence of the French Revolution played out with open defiance to any religion and of the testimony of Christ, essentially crucifying the Lord in Paris.

Revelation 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The three days and a half are three and a half years. From the date that the Bible was banned, the Old and New Testament bearing witness to the Gospel of Christ were dead. Churches and temples (Jewish synagogs) of any religion were closed.

Revelation 11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

During these three and a half years people celebrated in the merry abandonment of atheism.

Revelation 11:11
And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

The debauchery, immorality and lawlessness was too much for the political situation of France to bear. By 1797 the three and a half years had ended and politicians began to seek the reintroduction of religion in the form of religious freedoms as a means to establish order and placate the public masses. The Old and New Testament of the Bible would be eventually restored in Churches.

Revelation 11:12
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 1

Religion, the recognition of Christ, the Gospel, and the Bible would once again be observed and be established amongst the peoples. The two witnesses as the Old and New Testament ascending to heaven indicates God's protection of the Bible, that it never be openly humiliated and slain as in the likes of the French Revolution.

Revelation 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

1797 was also the year Napoleon came to power and the French Revolution became a terrible war in Europe.



Like I said, the two witnesses had already came. Whoever wishes to believe otherwise will be disappointed in the days ahead.

Love HB

Humble Bob,

QUOTE

On November 24 1793 the National Convention passed laws banning religion and religious expression including a ban on the Bible. The message of the Gospel as well as it's messengers were killed on that day.

Hardly. The message of the Gospel continued, and not all its messengers were killed. I also had never heard of that date before, so I doubt there was any great and massive murder of genuine Christians on that day, at least none that would have qualified as "[the Gospel] messengers were killed on that day".

QUOTE

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The National Convention occurred in Paris, a city reputed for its occultism and sexual sins in that era; a symbolic Sodom. In the streets of Paris the violence of the French Revolution played out with open defiance to any religion and of the testimony of Christ, essentially crucifying the Lord in Paris.

In no way does the Bible describe Paris as the city that is spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt". There already was a city thus referred to in the Bible, and it was not Paris. Besides which, the ministry of the Two Witnesses is worldwide, and Paris was and is far from "world-influencing" - it is an important and influential city, but by no means could one consider the Old and New Testaments "killed" just because the city and people of Paris, or even of France or Europe as a whole, banned the Bible.

QUOTE

Revelation 11:9
And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The three days and a half are three and a half years.

The Bible says the three and a half days are three and a half days. In other places in the Book of Revelation, God is careful to make it clear when He means days, when He means months, and when He means years. If your interpretation is correct, then Revelation 11:9 is the ONLY place in the Book of Revelation where a specific calendar period means anything other than that specific calendar period.

QUOTE

From the date that the Bible was banned, the Old and New Testament bearing witness to the Gospel of Christ were dead. Churches and temples (Jewish synagogues) of any religion were closed.

In Paris, in France. Not throughout the world. And neither Paris, nor France, was or is a center of God's concern in terms of spiritual and prophetic significance.

I'd like to point out, as well, that you haven't shown how the Old and New Testaments could possibly be considered to have "desire", nor how THEY caused plagues, and waters to turn to blood, and the like. Trying to stretch very general turmoil to fit those specific prophecies just doesn't cut it.

I would say this: I like HB, but he is conveying the SDA view of interpretation. I say this only to those who want to do the research and to get the details. The prophetess of the SDA, Ellen G. White, wrote a book called the Great Controversy in the middle 1800s and the SDA relies upon this writting as equal with the scriptures to this very day. HB's statements reflect this writing. A very loose play with interpretive process. OK for you to believe this HB, but the views just do not fit the scriptures.

I never heard of Ellen G. White nor am I familiar with her writings. I do not proclaim her writings in any way, nor do I claim my understanding as based upon my own work, because I did not do the research behind what I wrote. I just read from online material years ago, and it made sense to me so I believe there is very strong correlation between history (past events) and the prophecy cited in Revelation.

I do not subscribe to any particular denomination and consider myself simply a believer in Christ, not SDA, LDS or any other Christian flavors that exist.

I will cite some references that are cited elsewhere on the Internet, and they are as follows:

Lectures in European History, 1789-1914. John McManners
Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers
Paris in the Terror. Stanley Loomis
A Short History of France, Victor Dunray

I say for those who want to do the research and get the details study history, and not some prophetess or whatever.

I will also say again, anyone who thinks that they are one of the two witnesses, I dare them to jump on a plane to Israel, wear a sackcloth and openly proclaim God's message in Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified. See if that person doesn't get thrown in prison for starting a riot, and see if that person is unable to bring a plague like how it is described in Revelation.

Go ahead, get your passports out and go to Israel.

Humble Bob,

QUOTE

I will also say again, anyone who thinks that they are one of the two witnesses, I dare them to jump on a plane to Israel, wear a sackcloth and openly proclaim God's message in Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified.

Wouldn't that be sort of like Satan daring Jesus ("If you are the Son of God") to jump off the top of the Temple? Besides, the Two Witnesses will wait for GOD'S timing to start their ministry, not their own.

QUOTE

See if that person doesn't get thrown in prison for starting a riot, and see if that person is unable to bring a plague like how it is described in Revelation.

Well, if the person actually is one of the Two Witnesses, and their ministry is to start once they had landed in Jerusalem and "forced the issue", then, according to the Bible, "if anyone wants to harm" them (including, I would take it, throwing them into prison to end their ministry), they will be destroyed by fire that proceeds out of their mouth (much like Elijah calling down fire from heaven to destroy soldiers who were seeking to take him prisoner). So that sort of short-circuits your idea that the Two Witnesses won't be able to preach in the streets of Jerusalem, doesn't it?

no...don't be silly, GW, it's not the same. My statement was made out of exaggeration. I'd really be surprised if someone actually made their way out to Israel only because I dared them here on this forum to do so. It's hardly the temptation satan had tried on Christ because satan was serious, and I'm not as I have made the dare out of a jest.



Well, whoever they might claim to be they'll be waiting for a long long time.



Cool, I'd like to see that!

Cop "Come with me, sir. You are causing a disruption."
Witness "unhand me you heathen, or I will breath fire upon you!"



cheers!

"Well, if the person actually is one of the Two Witnesses, and their ministry is to start once they had landed in Jerusalem and "forced the issue", then, according to the Bible, "if anyone wants to harm" them (including, I would take it, throwing them into prison to end their ministry), they will be destroyed by fire that proceeds out of their mouth (much like Elijah calling down fire from heaven to destroy soldiers who were seeking to take him prisoner). So that sort of short-circuits your idea that the Two Witnesses won't be able to preach in the streets of Jerusalem, doesn't it?"

It does ....exactly correct

HB,

Glad you are a one horse rider and stick to your own study, Best way to do it. It does take time and effort. What you posted is almost identical to the SDA view in part of the organization's interpretation of Bible prophecy. May just be a considence? There are spin offs of the organization so some of the internet sites that you referenced may be of the same strain. It is always a good idea to check out who the authors are and who they are affiliated with if possible.

oh, Stephen, I can't believe people actually think that the two witnesses will be two people, that people actually believe two men are going to breath fire out of their mouths. That is so absurd. Okay maybe after eating a bean burrito .

But seriously, I admit, I too did at one time take the meaning of two witnesses literally, and then I realized I was wrong.

So now I believe that the two witnesses are the Old and New Testament and that they had already witnessed. That makes more sense to me.

But, anyway believe what you want. I won't belabor the issue.

HB,

The power of the Lord is beyond our comprehension. The tribulation period will be unprecendented in the history of human existance. His two prophets will be able to withstand the force of satan and his angelics. There will be demonstrations in play that will shake the earth to its very foundation. The Lord is angry and His wrath is pent up. You talk to Him about His "bean buritto". One who can create the endless universe out of nothing and toss it around like silly putty is coming to the earth on a personal visit.

This is a new one. This "2 witnesses" debate has dragged on and will continue to drag on for many weeks, months and perhaps even years.

I just don't get it. Why is it so hard to imagine fire (the word of god) coming out of a mans mouth, in so much that it (the word of god) protects them and kills all who try to harm them? Why is it so hard to picture 2 men dressed in sackcloth preaching the word of god, for the whole world to see and hear? Why is it so hard to believe that these 2 men will have supernatural powers, in so much that they can shut the rains and smite mankind with any plaques they wish? Why is it so hard to believe that these 2 will be able to turn water to blood. Why is it so hard to believe that God will allow his choosen 2 prophets to be killed after they have finished their testimony and that they will be resurrected and brought up to heaven after lying in the streets for 3 1/2 days? Why is it so hard to believe that only 2 witnesses are required to achieve what God set out for them to do....which is simply to preach the word of God to the whole world for 42 months and punish those on the earth who turn a blind eye to their testimony.

I believe there will only be 2 witnesses. They will be granted supernatural powers by God, so that they may finish their testimony. I believe there will also be many more "witnesses" (tribulation saints) through out the world during the end times, but all of these witnesses will be caught by the beast/antichrist forces and killed over the course of the last 3 1/2 year tribulation period.

I don't accept the "corporate witnesses" doctrine. I don't accept the post trib rapture doctrine, as I know God will keep his beloved choosen children from the great tempation that will come upon man. I also don't believe in the doctrine, that the antichrist will not be phyical man but instead represents the spirit of the antichrist.


God Bless!!

Rob

Good post Rob. A quick study of Moses and Aaron and or Gideon will prove why this is true. God shows His power and His glory by taking weak vessels and saying, who can oppose the Potter.

He can not be fully glorified if His power can be explained away by unbelievers via wealth, positive circumstances, numbers etc........

He is glorified by showing He is God by taking something that is weak and showing He is strong.

That's the whole point. Men will be so reprobate in their faith they will be saying, He can't do it and He will show, He can do it for He is able where men are not able.

HB---

Now all you need to do is take the OT and NT (Word of God) and see it coming out of the mouths of the saints during the last 3.5 years of tribulation and you'll see the 2 witnesses. Just as Jesus sent out the 70 two by two...He will send his end times saints throughout the earth, preaching the FULL GOSPEL (old and new testaments which IS the testimony of Jesus Christ which is the Spirit of Prophecy) for a final witness to the wicked.

You are on track......

You are right....there will not be 2 guys with hot breath...it's a parable!!!

The Two Witnesses will not have "hot breath", any more than Jesus literally will have a sword coming out of His mouth. But fire which comes as a result of the Two Witnesses verbal "command" or statement will literally destroy the enemies of the Two Witnesses if they try to hurt the Witnesses - just like what Elijah did to the first two groups of soldiers who were sent to take him.

What does it mean to be a prophet? Is it someone who is of exalted reputation? Is it a high office of esteem that people would say oh high and exalted one? One of stature and of pride? Is it one who sticks his chest out and says I am a prophet of God and am above others in anointing and authority?
If someone is a prophet, I would think that would be the last thing that they would do, lest they fall in the same condemnation as satan, lest they are overthrown by God...these would know this and would therefore remain small in their own eyes at all times.

To me a prophet of God is a very lowly position...one of servantude and self denial. A position of being absolutely hated at times for the Word of God, and a burden to be borne...but a burden that is borne gladly with the joy and communion of the Holy Spirit; a person with humility of spirit, meekness, unpretentiousness and modesty; one with whom the Pure and Holy Word of God burns inside with indescribable and unquentiable fire and zeal; one who loves and extols the God of heaven beyond all else in this life.

...But even the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth needs a saviour, for they are not with out sin...but are repented sinners clothed with the righteousness of Jesus. Would they not say therefore, "here I am, with my feet firmly planted upon the Rock of my salvation?"
...are not their spirits melted within them, by the Fire of God, as wax before the Flame?

Who ever these two prophets are, may God truly and richly bless them for the work and suffering they are about to do. May the Holy Spirit of God go with them in power! Amen.





Yes I do pray for them, and I would like to tell them...

The two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth has a saviour - rejoice oh you holy ones who are clothed with the righteousness of Jesus our Messiah.



Would they not say therefore, "here I am, with my feet firmly planted upon the Rock of my salvation?"...are not their hearts tender and contrite...melted within them, by the Fire of God, as wax before the Flame? Oh how they extol the living God!! Oh how pleased God is with them!!

May God truly and richly bless you two holy ones, for the work and suffering you are about to do. May the Holy Spirit of God go with you in power! Amen.



I think the mark of a true prophet is deep humility, and he will not draw a light to himself and proclaim himself to be so. He will take on the role of a servant, and in the case of these two witnesses, have a certain mandate to fullfill.

I have a question for you, if the Lord were to reveal to you that he has called you to do this, and has given you the choice, would you accept...would you accept this call? You realize that if He did call you, that it would be a hard road for you to travel? I ask this because...I do not see their road an easy one, even the Lord, in His hour of trial, pleaded with God the Father "Father, if it be Thy will, take this cup away from me; yet not my will but Thine " and the Lord, for our sakes, overcame in the hour of trial. Amen.

I see a human side to them...their's is a road of hardship and self denial, (but they have a love and zeal for God) and in the end of their ministry, they loved not their life unto death...they are mercilessly slaughtered/killed...but God raises them up.


Through one's fears, one is made strong, for when we are weak, God within us is strong...like Elijah feared Jezebel but overcame his fear. Another thing...will they know they are called before, or not until the hour? God has called many to testify.



Think about this one. These two witnesses are Christians...present day Christians. Called, saved, and repented sinners (filled with a special anointing agreed). It is the calling that God Himself has placed on these two that sets them apart...this could be a number of people. If you were to ask them (these two witnesses), they would tell you that they are nothing special at all, but with deepest humility tell how greatful they are that the Lord has saved them, and washed them from their sins, and that their names are written down in heaven, and anyone seeing them would think they are nothing special...except maybe those who can see into the Spirit may suspect.

While the Church gets to go up to heaven rejoicing with our Lord Jesus the Messiah, these two get to stay on a damned Earth to preach and testify...will you remember them while you are in heaven clothed in white, rejoicing in God's presence and love, and pray for them?

These two get to stay on Earth...as God's Christian representatives. They will decry the anitchrist fiercely and fearlessly with the power of the Holy Spirit.

They will decry antichrist, who is a man (the son of perdition), for 3-1/2 years...and at the end of their Christian testimony, get to die for the testimony of Jesus. During the time of their tenure as the two witnesses, God will give them a special anointing for the purpose of God's word and His judgement on the world, testimony in the face of satanic adversity, preaching the Gospel - hellfire preaching, and at the end of it satan's beast, the antichrist will overcome them and mercilessly kill them.

The world absolutely hates them because of their testimony (this must be clearly understood), and when they are killed, the world will rejoice and give each other gifts like on Christmas...a big party and celebrations worldwide. Their bodies will lay on the streets of Jerusalem as an open show to the world for 3 days of the anitchrist's triumph...
and he will complete his blaspheme and shake his fist at Jehovah God and at the Lamb, and he rejoices over the deaths of these two witnesses with greedy and evil hatred...rejoice over their deaths he will.

But on the third day God will call to them, and raise them up from the dead...and then...look and see... The fierceness of God will come up before Him, for his anger has been kindled and shall not be quenched...and look and behold...the greatest military battle of all time, of all eternity is about to take place,

Then that which is written by the prophet Enoch will come to pass:

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


Rev 19: 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Now back to these two witnesses...




...in life these two witnesses are most humble and meek among men and are of no exalted reputation, but flee this. And they probably suffered persecution in their life because of their quiet and meek spirit, and because the hand of God has always been with them. They also have ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them from birth (as do all the elect), and satan sees this and persecutes them from birth when he can. Think of Moses and what was written about him, was he not the most humble and meek of all men and was small in his own eyes? Numbers 12:3 (King James Version)
3(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

And even if I think I may know who they may be, I would never say it. Suffice it to say, whoever they are, they will be revealed at the appointed time and not before. So no one can say "I am he" because they would not do that, they will just go about their work in the time appointed, with NO FANFARE, ...they will be hated by the nations, not loved...their praise comes from God alone who has called them.

Have you ever felt the sentence of death in your soul, knowing how your life is going to end before it happens? These two must know this, and have to make peace with it. And I would say, if it is I (and I'm certainly not saying it is)...I'll go, just as long as I get to have a pure heart before God and get to love the God of heaven with all of my pure heart, the way that I have foreseen it happening. Worshipping God in Spirit is so beautiful, and it changes my soul into His image

They look forward to it.

Great post--don't know how I missed this one! I've been thinking a lot about this topic lately--even more than usual.