The two witnesses will come breathing fire at all the little deluded christians who want to harm them. Those messengers of rapture lies and going to heaven lies and all of the lies that their almighty dollars for book sales has invented for them. How long do you think that the news of fire breathing men will take to get around worldwide? You have all rejected them already and don't know it. You hate them because they have come to destroy the world for the Lord and make Babylon the confusion that you love and trust in disappear.

Weird stuff by the Boxer

Stephen,

QUOTE

Weird stuff by the Boxer.

Thanks for saving me the trouble.

Stephen,

Regarding the Two Witnesses and whether they will be Jews/Israelites or Gentiles: I believe one will be Jewish (from the "cultivated" olive tree of Romans 11), and one will be Gentile (from the "wild" olive tree of Romans 11). In this way, they will represent the Church (composed of both Jew and Gentile) during their ministry, whilst the Church is in Heaven. They would therefore represent the two olive trees (cultivated and wild) from which they "come", and in this sense would be (in a similar sense to that in which Old Testament kings often "represented" their kingdoms) the "two olive trees" mentioned in Zechariah 4. The fact that in Zechariah 4 the angel also identifies them as "branches" from those two trees indicates that they are two individuals, and not "corporate bodies". This is my theory, anyway.

For a more in-depth explanation of my ideas on this, I've started a thread in "Bible Types and Patterns" using a post I made earlier in this thread - the title of the new thread is, "The Camp - A Typology Regarding the Two Witnesses". Here's the url, for quick reference:

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=16602

I'd be curious to know what you think.

GW,

Definitely .... two individuals. I would say two Israelites.

Lamp stand = Menorah

Olive Tree = oil [annointing of the Spirit]

ALl of the prophets of the O.T. were Israelites and I believe these will be also. The 144,000 sealed also seem to be Israelites. The Lord Himself is an Israelite by His humanity. I do not see the church [of both Israelite and primarily gentiles without regard for national Identity] in the picture since I believe these immortal believers will be in the heavenly state of existence before the tribulation period begins as noted in Revelation several times as Revelation unfolds. I do think there will be gentiles saved during the period, but the focus seems to be on Israel, Jerusalem, the temple mount, and the surrounding states in the Middle East.

Researcher, I haven't got to that book yet.
Thanks for letting me know.
I am going to check it out.
He sent me that book too.

It is so easy to get confused these days.
Maybe I just better stick to reading the bible.
I thought how awesome this guy sends you two books for
no charge. He doesn't even ask for a donation and he also
pays the shipping.

I will continue to read the first book, but if a red flag comes up,
I am putting it down as fast as I can and sticking to the bible.

Anyway thanks for the heads up researcher.
love,
rosie

Yes Researcher Ronald Weinland says he is one of
the two witnesses and the other witness will be
revealed during the tribulation.

I somehow wonder if he means that he must witness and
he can't say it to others that are reading the book in case they don't really believe.
You know what I mean. Do you think it is possible that he
might mean he will be with a group of believers witnessing.

But then again I suppose he should have said it that way.
Boy all kinds of things can get scrambled in our brains.
But it sure is thought provoking.

I will pray for discernment as I read these books.

love,
rosie

Stephen,

QUOTE

ALL of the prophets of the O.T. were Israelites and I believe these will be also.

Possibly, though I would say that if my "typology" regarding the "Camp" and the Two Witnesses is valid, and if my interpretation of it is correct, then one will be an Israelite and the other a Gentile. Although all of the Old Testament prophets were Israelites (actually, that's not technically true, because prior to Jacob, there were no "Israelites", yet there were prophets of God [Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.]), and the focus was upon Israel, once Christ came and the Jews ("corporately") rejected Him as Messiah, the Gospel has been sent to both Jews and Gentiles (recall that Jesus' earthly mission was only for the Jews ["I have been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel"]). The Church is now made up of both Jews and Gentiles, which are the two olive trees of Romans 11. Is it not likely that these are the same two olive trees mentioned in Zechariah 4, and that the two branches described in that chapter as being from those two olive trees, and representing the Two Witnesses, would not therefore be a Jew and a Gentile?

Anyway, a favorite topic of mine, given I think I am the one who "discovered" this "teaching" (about the two olive trees indicating that the Two Witnesses will be a Jew and a Gentile). The "teaching" might not be correct, but I imagine I'll have to be dragged kicking and screaming, and probably whining, into changing my view.

The lineage of Christ, that began with Adam, stayed in the same family line through Noah then Abraham who was the one that came out of Babylon. He crossed the Eber and they were termed Hebrew (one who crosses the Eber). Then, as you say, the Israelites were from him. The line never varied although the name did.


Isaac's son Jacob became Israel. Israel is all 12 tribes, all of Jacob's sons. Only the tribe of Judah and Benjamin are "Jews" and are termed the house of Judah. The other 10 tribes are the house of Israel. It is to them that Christ sent His apostles and it was to them that He was sent:


Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."


They, the house of Israel, were taken captive two hundred years before the house of Judah. They are termed the 10 lost tribes....lost sheep of the house of Israel. God scattered them and they remain so today but He is awakening them to who they are. To term them Jewish isn't correct nor is it to term them Gentile. Gentiles are ethnic races. The "house of Israel" are the Christians of today and those Christians have Gentiles adopted into their family by belief in Christ. They carry His Word forward. They fulfill many prophecies but those prophecies are difficult to understand unless we separate the two houses, as He did.


I haven't read your post yet on the Camp and Two Witnesses but I will. I just wanted to point out the difference in the two houses and there remains that separation today although the "two sticks" will be brought together again.





I do the "whining" too. At times it's so bad I'm asked....."Would you like some crackers and cheese with that whine?"



......Whirlwind

Dear GodsWord,........That is a good theory......it does make sense.....I read about the two wittnesses ....Enoch being a gentile,and Eliahja being a jew many years ago....Some try to spiritualize the two wittnesses, and some believe that they are two physical individuals......both groups are partly correct......but the understanding is much deeper......GodsWord,......I believe that you have hit it on the nail.........................................benny

Benny,

Thank you for your comments. I'm still wondering, though, about whether Enoch would "qualify" as a "Gentile", which would mean he would have, and will be, part of the "wild" olive tree mentioned in Romans 11), or whether he should be considered part of the "root" of the "cultivated" olive tree mentione in Romans 11. Stretching the image of the "cultivated" olive tree perhaps more than it was intended, consider that perhaps the portion of the "cultivated" olive tree represents Israel from its beginning (Jacob), and the "roots" of that olive tree represents the "'pre-Jacob' patriarchs", such as Abel, Enoch, Abraham, etc.. If so, then Enoch would be part of the "cultivated" olive tree, and should not be considered a "Gentile", in which case, if Elijah is one of the Two Witnesses, Enoch would not be one of the Two Witnesses (since Elijah was an Israelite).

Oh, and I should add that Joshua and Caleb being the only two spies who brought back a "good report" to Moses after spying out the land of Canaan might have some implications for the identity of the Two Witnesses, as well. If, in a sense, Joshua and Caleb there represent the Two Witnesses (very generally, not in their specific actions in that case), then a relevant fact might be that Caleb was apparently a Gentile - Caleb's father was "Jephunneh the Kenizite", and a Kenizite was someone from a particular Gentile country. I'm not sure which of the following was the case: Caleb's father "attached" himself to Israel and Caleb was born in Israel; Caleb's father "attached" himself to Israel after Caleb was born, but before Caleb had reached adulthood, or Caleb later, as an adult, "attached" himself to Israel. In the first case, Caleb would have been descended from a Gentile, but would have been an Israelite from birth; in the second case, Caleb would have been descended from, and born, a Gentile, but raised an Israelite; in the third case, Caleb would have been a Gentile who had become "attached" to Israel. In the latter two cases, I'm not sure Caleb would have been considered a "real" Israelite, but in terms of the nation, his national identity, he would have been so considered.

Whirlwind,

QUOTE

I haven't read your post yet on the Camp and Two Witnesses but I will. I just wanted to point out the difference in the two houses and there remains that separation today although the "two sticks" will be brought together again.

I'm not sure, but I thought Paul, in his Epistles, used the term, "Jews", to refer to "all Israel". I was under the impression that, though technically and originally the terms referred to distinct groups, over time and by misuse, the terms had come to mean essentially the equivalent thing, at least in the minds of lay population, and that it was in this sense Paul used the term, "Jew".

All of Israel includes the Jews but the Jews are not all of Israel. The term "Jews" has come to mean all of the tribes by folks but not to God. He makes a great distinction in the two houses.


The apostles were sent to the house of Israel while Paul was sent to the house of Judah. Also, when referring to the Jews it could mean two things. Those of the Jewish heritage, tribe of Judah and Benjamin, or those living in Judea....a place inhabited. For instance, I am Scotch/Irish but I live in Alabama so I am also known as an Alabamian.


Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Those so-called Jews were those that crucified Christ. So...as there is a difference in the house of Judah and the house of Israel so is there a difference in who the true Jews are. Those of the lineage, those living in Judah and then....those that "say they are and are not."


......Whirlwind

I will pray for your enlightenment,
for you sure need it.
For when you speak, it is better to think first
rather than to knit random words.

To give you a starter:
1. My heart is on fire. Is it on fire? Was I in the news where the fire brigade came and extinguished my heart?
2. Christians deluded? The word deluded is in the eye of the beholder and says much about you.
3. The two witnesses do not destroy, but prophesy. They hold wind and water.

Boxer,
Who has been rejected? Are you saying that people love the world so much that because of that they WILL reject the witnesses and their message, or are you saying that the actual witnesses have been here and been rejected? Some of us will be GLAD to see Babylon and all wickedness be consumed. It's hard to raise children in faith with all the evil influences out there.

What does it mean to be a prophet? Is it someone who is of exalted reputation? Is it a high office of esteem that people would say oh high and exalted one? One of stature and of pride? Is it one who sticks his chest out and says I am a prophet of God and am above others in authority?

To me a prophet of God is a very lowly position...one of servantude and self denial. A position of being absolutely hated at times for the Word of God, and a burden to be borne...but a burden that is borne gladly with the joy and communion of the Holy Spirit; a person with humility of spirit, meekness, unpretentiousness and modesty; one with whom the Pure and Holy Word of God burns inside with indescribable and unquentiable fire and zeal; one who loves and extols the God of heaven beyond all else.

...But even the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth needs a saviour, for they is not with out sin...but are repented sinners clothed with the righteousness of Jesus. Would they not say therefore, "here I am, with my feet firmly planted upon the Rock of my salvation?"
...are not their spirits melted within them, by the Fire of God, as wax before the Flame?

Who ever these two prophets are, may God truly and richly bless them for the work and suffering they are about to do. May the Holy Spirit of God go with them in power! Amen.

I believe the focus will be on Israel too, as this is where the two witnesses/prophets will have their ministry. I want to point out though that they may not necessarily be Jews. This is why I say this:
...that the Lord makes no distinction between Jew and Gentile at all, but has declared that all are sold under sin and need a saviour. Is not the same Spirit that baptised the Jews at Pentecost the same Spirit that filled Cornelius, of the Italian band making no distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Yes, you are right, gentiles will be saved too!! Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from? Are they not the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb...a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues?

It is true that the Lord makes no distinction between Israelite and Gentile in matters concerning salvation, but He does regarding national origin. Israel as a nation is separate from all others whether in the land or out of the land from its beginning, today, and in the future. Much of the prophetic vision of the past and future is focused upon national Israel. The nation is an ensign to all other nations and for the believer to gain an understanding of the Lord's future intentions. National Israel and the church are not the same and one must know that they exist in parallel together at the same time from the Lord's point of view. This truth must be understood in order for one to gain the correct rendering of all Bible prophecy. The view of mixing Israel, the nations, and the church together will only result in confusion when one attempts to understand the prophetic scriptures. The 144,000 sealed Israelites, the believing remnant part of national Israel who will flee Judea, and the two Jerusalem prophets will all be members of the national Israel. There are no Gentiles [heathen] in this line up. The related ID's in the context of the passages of scripture must be paramount. When the fulness of the Gentiles is added to the church, the Lord switches focus in prophetic scripture to national Israel and the nations during His coming hour of trial against unbelief.

It is true that the Lord makes no distinction between Israelite and Gentile in matters concerning salvation, but He does regarding national origin.
okay

Israel as a nation is separate from all others whether in the land or out of the land from its beginning, today, and in the future.
okay
Much of the prophetic vision of the past and future is focused upon national Israel.
okay
The nation is an ensign to all other nations and for the believer to gain an understanding of the Lord's future intentions.
it is the Holy Spirit who gives understanding about His future intentions. God will keep his promises concerning the nation of Israel as written by his prophets. Concerning Israel today, Israel is a sign to them who believe, the elect, concerning the timing of the return of Jesus, and events surrounding Israel presently, indicates that the time is close now, very close...time to get ready.
National Israel and the church are not the same and one must know that they exist in parallel together at the same time from the Lord's point of view. This truth must be understood in order for one to gain the correct rendering of all Bible prophecy.
okay
The view of mixing Israel, the nations, and the church together will only result in confusion when one attempts to understand the prophetic scriptures.
The rule/dominion of man on Earth(Babylon) is about to fall, and God will gather his elect from the 4 corners of the Earth...most of the world is about to perish in God's judgement. It is time for the Bride of Christ to get herself ready...but what does this mean?
The 144,000 sealed Israelites, the believing remnant part of national Israel who will flee Judea, and the two Jerusalem prophets will all be members of the national Israel. There are no Gentiles [heathen] in this line up.
The salvation of man (Jew and Gentile) is what it is all about, and always has been from the beginning. May God be blessed and may God bless his elect, whoever they are.
The related ID's in the context of the passages of scripture must be paramount. When the fulness of the Gentiles is added to the church, the Lord switches focus in prophetic scripture to national Israel and the nations during His coming hour of trial against unbelief.
True, the Lord will rule the world/nations with a rod of iron, as it is written, from Jerusalem, which is in national Israel. National Israel is Paramount indeed. I look forward to the day when all in Israel will say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and be believing. Let there be a distinction between Secular Israel of today(unbelieving) and Spiritual Israel (believing) that which is to come, as unbelief will be done away with, just as the rule/dominion of man/Adam/Babylon will be done away with, and the rule of the Spiritual man arise in his place.

Jeremiah
30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.

30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.

30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.

30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.

30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.

30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.

30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.

30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.

30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.

30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.

30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.

30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.

30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

Micah
4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

4:4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.

4:6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;

4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

4:9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.

4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

4:11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.

4:12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

Thanks for sharing that.

The purpose for Israel coming back to the land of Israel is for the Lord and for the Lord alone, that He may show Himself as God, that He is merciful, in fulfillment to prophecy! ...there is no other reason for it. Till ALL things are put under him, till Consummation of All Things is complete in Heaven above and on Earth below. 1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

and in the end, when all nations are done away with...

Revelation 21: 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John,[a] saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” 9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife."

earendel,

Precisely

Ezekiel
39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel
36:17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.

36:18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:

36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.

36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.

36:21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

36:22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.

36:30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

36:32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.

36:34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.

36:35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.

36:36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

36:37 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.

36:38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Perhaps we may never know who these two witnesses are until they arrive. But if I am to follow scripture...

...the witnesses are Elijah, and the Apostle John.

Malachi’s Prophecy: The very last words of the Old Testament concern God’s coming Day of Judgment, and they issue a warning:

“Look, I am sending you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives. His preaching will turn the hearts of parents to their children, and the hearts of children to their parents. Otherwise, I will come and strike the land with a curse.” Malachi 4:5-6


May I suggest that one of the witneses will be the Apostle John. Here is why I think this. In John 21: 20-23 says:

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

This here may signify the this Apostle will be raised up in the last days to testify again...also:

Revelation 10: 11 says:

11And he said unto me, "Thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations, and tongues and kings."


If true, then they are Jews indeed.

I suppose if a person wants to argue the point, one could say that they will come in the Spirit and power of Elijah and John.

However it is, I am glad the Lord is coming back, and that He has filled me with His Holy Spirit!

earendel,

I would say this:

I believe the Lord answers the question about Elijah coming and that John the Baptist was the intended subject ..... and he did come before the great and terrible day of the Lord which is still pending to this day.

I also think the Lord's response was a rebuke to the questioner about the subject at hand and not about having John live for 2,000+ years in the body.

When John is told to testify again he had been take to heaven and into the future to be shown the things which must take place "hereafter" ..... the time of the end, which is still pending. Chapter 10 is a dividing line between what John had already recorded and then he was to add more details and further revelation about the same period.

I think you have good ideas, but I do not think the scriptures tell us who the two prophets will be by name. If this was revealed it would be in chapter 11. They will be national Israelites who will stand for the Lord in Jerusalem during a time of great trouble for their nation.

Some people believe this prophecy was fulfilled by John the Baptist, but John was specifically asked if he was Elijah, and his reply was “No” John 1:21. Furthermore, this prophecy states that Elijah will appear before the “great and dreadful day of the Lord arrives,” which is a still future event that will be fulfilled by the Glorious Appearing of Christ. Therefore, it’s more than reasonable to expect that the prophet Elijah will be one of the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

Earendel,


In the same sense that John the Baptist could have (if the Jews had been "willing to receive it" [meaning, Jesus' Messiahship, I believe]) fulfilled the prophecy about Elijah being sent before the day of the Lord (and Jesus Himself said John the Baptist would have fulfilled that prophecy, had they been willing), so too could another prophet, one who is not (will not be) literally Elijah, do so in the (probably near) future. The key is that both John the Baptist and this future prophet will have come in the "spirit" of Elijah.

earendel,

You are correct that John the Baptist said he was not Elijah ..... and he was not actually. But the Lord said that he was. Is there a contradiction? No. O.T. prophets often use key scriptural names and descriptions to describ future events like "David" when describing the Lord as an example. I would say that John the Baptist was the one who was to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord which is still in our future. I believe that the Day of the Lord consists of His coming judgment against unbelief and His ensuing millennial kingdom and beyond. So "Elijah" has come ..... so has the Lord, but He left and His return is still pending. The last 2,000+ years are just not in the scope of the visions. So I see the great and terrible Day of the Lord as beginning with a judgment period in which the next two prophets of chapter 11 will serve during the last 1,260 days of the 70th week just before the Lord will appear to the world and then establish His millennial kingdom. I also see Him in scripture involved in controlling His judgment process even though the world will not see Him until the end of it.

GW,

I would agree with your explanation.

Stephen,

You know what? It really doesn't matter to me the exact identity of these two witnesses, it just doesn't matter. What matters is, we agree that they are coming soon, and praise God for that! I do not believe that guy from Herbert W. Armstrong's church is one of the witnesses, even though he is boasting himself to be some great one.

I think the mark of a true prophet is deep humility, and he will not draw a light to himself and proclaim himself to be so. He will take on the role of a servant, and in the case of these two witnesses, have a certain mandate to fullfill.

I have a question for you, if the Lord were to reveal to you that he has called you to do this, and has given you the choice, would you accept? You realize that if He did, that it would be a hard road for you to travel? I ask this because...I do not see their road an easy one, even the Lord, in His hour of trial, pleaded with God the Father "Father, if it be Thy will, take this cup away from me; yet not my will but Thine " and the Lord, for our sakes, overcame in the hour of trial. Amen.

I see a human side to them...their's is a road of hardship and self denial, (but they have a love and zeal for God) and in the end of their ministry, they loved not their life unto death...they are killed...but God raises them up.
Through one's fears, one is made strong, for when we are weak, God within us is strong...like Elijah feared Jezebel but overcame. Another thing...will they know they are called before, or not until the hour.

Thanks for sharing with me your views with me.

earendel,

I agree with your view. It really does not matter who the two prophets will be. This is the Lord's business. And He can do anything He chooses .... so you could be right with your picks. There always has and will be those who claim to be this or that and we can know and evaluate by the scriptures their false claims. When the Lord's two prophets begin their service there will be no doubt about who they are by their actions, location, and surroundings.


I see them involved during the last half of the 70th week at the same time that the Gentiles will overrun Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount and will rule for 42 months as chapter 11 seems to indicate. These would be satan's beast and followers. I also see the two prophets as national Israelites. All of the Bible prophets were, the Lord is, and so will they be. They are connected with Jerusalem and the time of "Jacob's" trouble ..... the great pressuring the Lord will bring for the purpose of getting a believing remnant part of the nation to turn to Him which they will do. The Lord always sends prophets to Israel in the times of the nation's pressuring. It seems that the two prophets will be the Lord's way of kicking the beast in the face at the time while he is ruling over the Lord's property. The beast will have much power and authority, but he will not be able to touch the two prophets and they will defy his position during their period of service for 1,260 days. The Lord will allow their killing, but satan never wins and the Lord will raise them to immortality by demonstrating His great resurrection power against which satan and his beast can do nothing. The Lord always wins ..... satan always looses.

Stephen,

I am glad that you have the knowledge that you do. And you are right about gentiles over running Israel, as is pointed how it may come about here: http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...st&p=146948

If it is true, that we are at the doorstep to the times of Jacob's trouble, that the Great Tribulation is upon us, then we must sound the alarm to others to get ready...because the enemy is at the gate, and the trumpet is about to sound!

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me while I am writing this; He is indicting that it is time to purify ourselves and to turn our hearts to God; I know I am not alone in seeing this. It appears that some will not be ready when the trumpet blows...the Lord grant to us repentance, before the great and terrible day of God's judgement comes.

If I were a prophet I would say (and I say this to myself first and foremost, because this was me and I choose to humble myself and repent, and because I am perhaps the worst possible prodigal son) - Hear the what the Spirit of God is saying to some believers in this hour, but mostly to me:

Why have you turned away you wicked, from doing righteousness to become evil, and to take so lightly that which I have called you to. You walked so perfectly, and I extolled you, and loved you, and revealed myself to you...what did hinder you so, so that you sinned against me a terrible sin, and have become complacent and worthless and lazy, and worldly? - you eat much, but you are not satisfied, you have gained much possesions and are rich, but you are very poor in faith, but you -- you have not been steadfast, nor done the commandments of the Lord, but you have turned away and have not walked in my ways, but have walked in the ways of this world, instead of the ways of your God. Humble yourselves, therefore, into the mighty hands of God, and return to me says the Lord, and I will heal your broken heart (that was perfect before me, but now is broken), and I will forgive you for your backslidings and for your sins. Return to me oh wayward one, and repent, and I will bless you with my Holy Spirit that you should walk in my ways. Walk with me now and repent of your sins, and be holy, for I am holy says the Lord.

...the time is short now, and the day is at hand...purify your hearts you double minded and cleanse your hands you sinners and ask for repentance...repent therefore, lest when He comes, He finds you sleeping, and turns and tears you to pieces. Return to the God of your salvation and - Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Turn back, turn back oh you wicked and defiled. How shall we escape God's judgement, if we neglect so great a salvation and count His Son's sacrifice as unworthy by the works we do. The Jugement of God begins at the House of God - which must occur before He judges the world. - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

Grant us repentance oh God, and remember us according to your mercy, and forgive us for our sins and for our backsliding, and remember them no more; wash us and we will be clean. Allow us the foundation of repentance, and allow us a broken and contrite and humble spirit within us...so that we may repent, so that we may return to you Oh Lord, fully with a pure heart, and with clean and undeflied and holy hands. Grant to us, oh Lord, the gift of your Holy Spirit, and purify us from the world. Through Jesus Christ our Lord - Amen.

SHEKEL: I have posted a prophecy here concerning some, please review and delete it if you feel it is inappropriate for this forum.

Thank-you
dc

earendel said:

"If it is true, that we are at the doorstep to the times of Jacob's trouble, that the Great Tribulation is upon us, then we must sound the alarm to others to get ready...because the enemy is at the gate, and the trumpet is about to sound!"

Like a snare it will come .... no warning. He has said this. At a time you think not, sudden destruction against an unbelieving world of intransigence .... the Lord's hour of trial and judgment.

Yes I do pray for them, and I would like to tell them...

The two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth has a saviour - rejoice oh you holy ones who are clothed with the righteousness of Jesus. Would they not say therefore, "here I am, with my feet firmly planted upon the Rock of my salvation?"

...are not their hearts tender and contrite...melted within them, by the Fire of God, as wax before the Flame? Oh how they extol the living God!! Oh how pleased God is with them!!

May God truly and richly bless you two holy ones for the work and suffering you are about to do. May the Holy Spirit of God go with you in power! Amen.

Earendel,

From your last post, am I correct in understanding that you think the Two Witnesses, or at least one of them, frequents this particular site? Or was your last post just a general comment about and "for" them?

- about and "for" them...They may or may not visit here.

Earendel,

QUOTE

They may or may not visit here.

I think that would be true for almost any website on the Internet, especially those focused on the Bible and Biblical prophecies. But do you think that they have visited or are visiting this site?

If you think about who the are and what they will be doing, it can stand to reason why they may not be revealed at this time, satan will not get an advantage to know who they are in advance. I believe it is kind of like that no man knows the day or the hour except our Father in heaven. Perhaps these two may not even know who they are until God shows them in that day, and YES they ARE most definately Christians!!

I think it is possible that they may have visited here, and maybe perhaps they are known who they are, in the spiritual realm. And if they are... the Lord would say to them "even before you set in your heart to know me, the Lord your God, even before the foundation of the world, I have set my mark and my seal upon you, and have reserved you for myself, many shall glorify me because of you, and shall sanctify me the Lord their God in their hearts." It is the mark and seal of God upon them, that is the reason that satan cannot touch them before the time.

What to look for.

I think the mark of a true prophet is deep humility, and he will not draw a light to himself and proclaim himself to be some great one, but in humility will take on the role of a humble servant, and in the case of these two witnesses, have a certain mandate to fullfill.

I do not believe it will be one of these "super evangelists" you hear tell of, that drive around in Rolls Royces and live in the lap of luxury in multi-million dollar homes, who wear $5000 suits and pay $700 for a hair cut, and all of taken from the storehouse of God. I tell you the truth -- Think about the Lord Jesus here, and Apostle Paul, they did not live in the pride of life, and in the lap of luxury in mansions. Now I would say, not the Lord, that I think these two prophets may have success in business, as God takes care of them, but would be most modest and place God above themselves in deep humility.

I see a human side to them...during the time of their ministry their's is a road of hardship and self denial, having given up everything pertaining to this life, (but they have a love and zeal for God) and in the end of their ministry, they loved not their life unto death...they are killed...but God raises them up.
...are not their hearts humble, tender and contrite...and melted within them, by the Fire of God, as wax before the Flame? Oh how they extol the living God, and love Him with a ravishing love!! and Oh how God is well pleased with them!!

I agree with you, Earendel. And I think the validity of your observations would show why those who go around proclaiming (as opposed to perhaps "just" claiming) themselves to be one of the Two Witnesses are deceived or deceiving.

However, do you yourself think you know who the Two Witnesses might be? How do you think God would reveal to them that they are the Two Witnesses? As He did with Moses; or gradually, over a period of time using increasingly clear "hints"; or some other way?

Earendel, do you think God has called you to be one of the Two Witnesses?

It is God who exalts them GW, not they themselves...never! They are saved repented sinners and nothing more, it is God who puts His mark upon them.
Revelation 5, points out something very importatnt...there is only one who is worthy...read on:
1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

...in life these two witnesses are most humble and meek among men and are of no exalted reputation, but flee this. And they probably suffered persecution because of it. Think of Moses and what was written about him, was he not the most humble and meek of all men and was small in his own eyes? Numbers 12:3 (King James Version)
3(Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

And even if I think I may know who they may be, I would never say it. Suffice it to say, whoever they are, they will be revealed in the appointed time and not before. So no one can say "I am he" because they would not do that, they will just go about their work in the time appointed with NO FANFARE, they will be hated by the nations, not loved...their praise come from God who called them.

I am not saying this, and I hope I am not implying it either.

Earendel,

Your answer seems clear, but it leaves a "loophole". So, could you answer my question with a simple "Yes" or "No"? (Not to imply you were seeking to be evasive - I just would like to be clear.)

I can neither tell you yes or no and that is the truth; I just don't know who these are...does it matter? God has not told me directly about it yet if He wants me to do this, or who it is. And even if He did I would never reveal it before the time. Please accept this, and forgive my indulgence. Don't you now that all of God's elect are the anointed ones? I don't know where you stand with your walk with Him, but if you have not recieved an infilling of the Holy Spirit so that you can Feel His presence and anointing on you, then may I suggest that you ask God for this.

Earendel,

It seems fairly clear to me that you think God might have called, or might be calling, you to be one of the Two Witnesses. If so, I understand that you would not want to "declare" that, and would not even if you felt certain of that calling. Your approach to this, if I am correct in what I just said, is the proper one. Personally, I believe "many are called, but few are chosen" applies particularly or especially in the case of the Two Witnesses - God has known from the beginning exactly who they will be, but there is a process involved for the sake of the angels and believers, that they might "see" or understand why God has or will have chosen the particular two individuals who end up being the Two Witnesses. Perhaps nowadays many have received the call, and are being "tried" and "tested" - only two will "pass".

Mark 10:37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”
38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
39 They said to Him, “We are able.”
So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized; 40 but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared.”[size="4"][/size]

Godsword these are two quotes from Earendel that answer your questions its clear.



i think he is also saying that all are anointed. that tho there are only two witnesses that God has chosen it is not a volunteer or trying out for the job all who find the narrow path will minister in this spirit.

In no major calling did God send out applications and then choose the best one . the one he chose was the best one. He doesnt make you jump through hoops and someone can possibly take your calling and ministry from you He chooses and raises up whom he chooses and raises up whom he chose.

Romans 8:29
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Mark 10:40[b] but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared.”[/b]

AllShookUp,

QUOTE

Godsword these are two quotes from Earendel that answer your questions its clear....

No, those two quotes from Earendel did not clearly answer my questions. The "loophole" which Earendel left himself, purposely or not, was that he could think that God has called him to be one of the Two Witnesses, but he is not sure if He has. And Earendel, even if he thinks God might have called him to be one of the Two Witnesses, would not want to say that he is one of the Two Witnesses, nor imply that he is, because he is not sure if he is; Earendel would also thus be able to say that he does not "know" who they are, even though he might think that he himself might be one of them. His "inability" ("I can neither tell you yes or no") to answer my simple and direct question ("Earendel, do you think God has called you to be one of the Two Witnesses?") with a simple and direct "Yes" or "No" only makes sense if he does indeed think God might have called, or might be calling, him to be one of the Two Witnesses, but he is not sure if God has.

Think about this one. These two witnesses are Christians...present day Christians. Called, saved, and repented sinners (filled with a special anoiting agreed). It is the calling that God Himself has placed on these two that sets them apart...this could be a number of people. If you were to ask them (these two witnesses), they would tell you that they are nothing special at all, but with deepest humility tell how greatful they are that the Lord has saved them, and washed them, and that their names are written down in heaven, and anyone seeing them would think they are nothing special...except maybe those who can see into the Spirit may suspect.

While the Chuch gets to go up to heaven rejoicing with our Lord Jesus the Messiah, to the marriage supper of the Lamb, these two get to stay on a damned Earth...will you remember them while you are in heaven clothed in white, rejoicing in God's presence and love and pray for them?

These two get to stay on Earth...as God's Christian representatives. They will decry the anitchrist fiercely and fearlessly with the power of the Holy Spirit.

They will decry antichrist, who is a man (the son of perdition), for 3-1/2 years...and at the end of their Christian testimony, get to die for the testimony of Jesus. During the time of their tenure as the two witnesses, God will give them a special anointing for the purpose of God's word and His judgement on the world, testimony in the face of satanic adversity, preaching the Gospel - hellfire preaching, and at the end of it satan's beast, the antichrist will overcome them and kill them.

The world absolutely hates them because of their testimony (this must be clearly understood), and when they are killed, the world will rejoice and give each other gifts like on Christmas...a big party and celebrations. Their bodies will lay on the streets of Jerusalem as an open show to the world for 3 days of the anitchrist's triumph...
and he will complete his blaspheme and shake his fist at Jehovah, and his rejoices over the deaths of these two with greedy evil hatred...stomp on them he will.

But on the third day God will call them and raise them up from the dead...and then...look out, because here it comes!!! The fierceness of God will come before Him, for his anger has been kindled...and look and behold...the greatest military battle of all time, of all eternity is about to take place,

Then that which is written in Enoch will come to pass

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.


Rev 19: 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


Now back to these two witnesses...

Have you ever felt the sentence of death, knowing how your life is going to end before it happens? These two must know this, and have to make peace with it. And I would say, if it is I (and I'm not saying it is)...I'll go, just as long as I get to have a pure heart and get to love the God of heaven with all of my pure heart, the way that I have foreseen it. Did you know that worship is the highest form love? ...think about that one.

One of the identifiers of these two prophets is that they will both be Israelites and they will serve in Jerusalem during the last 1,260 days of the 70th week decreed for national Israel. They will obviously be believers, but not Gentiles, and not technically members of the church. Once the fullness of the Gentiles has been added, the 70th week will begin and the church will be immortalized and in heaven. John is told to measure the temple of God in heaven and them that worship therein [the church]. The court "without" the ancient temple of the Lord is the temple mount that will be overrun by satan's beast and followers. The beast will rule for 42 months ..... the same period as the 1,260 days of the service of the two prophets.

Stephen,

I believe that one of the Two Witnesses will be a Jew, and one a Gentile. They are the "two olive trees", and the only place where "two olive trees" are explicitly mentioned and described in the Bible is Romans 11, which identifies the two olive trees as the Jews (basically) and the Gentiles. I understand that they will be two believers in Christ, who will be "left behind" at the Rapture in order to fulfill their mission. I also understand that, though God has known who they will be from the beginning, God has nevertheless called "many" to this ministry, but will have "chosen" only two in the end. Many are called not because God isn't sure, nor because God needs to test many people in order to find them, but in order to show to others, to believers and to the world, and probably to the Two Witnesses themselves, why God will have chosen them and not others.

Of course, I could be wrong. The Two Witnesses could be Moses and Elijah (very unlikely, in my opinion), or Enoch and Elijah (possible, I suppose), or two modern Israelite males (even more possible). From what I read in the Bible, especially in the description of the Two Witnesses as being "two olive trees" and of the description of the "two olive trees" in Romans 11, I believe my opinion best conforms to Scripture regarding the Two Witnesses. It's an interesting discussion, in any case, but certainly not essential to the faith.

Earendel,

QUOTE

While the Church gets to go up to heaven rejoicing with our Lord Jesus the Messiah, to the marriage supper of the Lamb, these two get to stay on a damned Earth...will you remember them while you are in heaven clothed in white, rejoicing in God's presence, and love and pray for them?

If I am taken with the Church at the Rapture, then I imagine yes, I would.