Scroll up. He did say "God the Father have appeared to me in person"

Tough pill to swallow, even for a charismatic who has seen the HS do some things.

I say he's a loon, too much Jesus Juice. 0_o

Beware of false prophets. Know the scriptures ..... study thy self approved. The individual who knows the Lord's Word will never be drawn off by the false prophet or false teacher. Many exist today and their numbers will increase as time moves closer to the Lord's return.

Amen to that bromang

researcher you are making a stretch and an accusation with no basis. you are saying it sounds like he is saying and he is practically doing something. True believers have to be aware of false prophets but the decieved have no problem making accusations with no proof or understanding of a person of true intimacy and standing with God. of course what you portray this man to be saying is wrong. but to pin heresy on someone you don't really understand what hes saying is dangerous for you.
Generally, in all cases a person who thinks' they are has no problem stating they 'are' so they think. unless of course they know they will be banned from a site for saying so.

the problem is everyone wants to figure it out. the scripture says what the scripture is and if you are so desperate to figure it out you will find your self down a path that few will agree with you on of course you find many who will back up some part that you agree with on line. but there are so many positions all cannot be right.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart all your mind and all your soul
Love your neighbor as yourself.
this is what puts each foot infront of the other.
and the Spirit will lead 'you' into all Truth.
it is good to question and wonder and follow some level of intrigue but to do this on your own is to walk away from the Spirit.
He will lead those who have first purified themselves and allowed him to sanctify them in there own life and then have extended the Love they have gotten from the Lord to all others. and then he will reveal mysteries and secrets
zechariah 4
revelation 11
mark 10:40
and other scriptures touch on this subject.
Read what the Lord has said and what he said IS.
micah6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

this is the goal of every True Child

that is all that is required

then the Lord will reveal His mysteries.
John14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.

im not calling you decieved or with NO understanding.
this is a error i often see to get caught up in the 'mysticism' of the end times and prophecies. when there is not mysticism about the Kingdom of God.

Love God Love others. Live by the Spirit.

this thread has gotten way of course of what it was started.
the poll of what do you feel or think.
and do you pray for them.

Sorry Allshookup. Here's another guy who claims to be one of the Two Witnesses. It's in his book which you can read for free here: Ron Weinland

Then there was that fellow here Godsloft, who, claimed to know Both of the Two Witnesses (lmbo), so, we are up to 4 of them now. And, there are many more. I believe Shekel told him to stop posting here, or it was that other guy PehJeshua who claimed to know something, lol.

Either way, you can give these "self-proclaimed" prophets of doom your glance, but, I think I'll just call them as I see them. Most, are a little batty imho thanks. >_0
(that, and, I have a strong aversion to tha "crazies", 0_0) ~

And no, I don't really care who they are. They get here when they get here (if they are in fact two peeps 0_0 )

Dos!

researcher, i have no disagreement with the specifics of this post. and im glad you are honest.
God Bless

Danka Shien Allshookup! And God Bless You too!

QUOTE(researcher @ Jan 30 2008, 10:37 PM) [snapback]145453[/snapback]

Scroll up. He did say "God the Father have appeared to me in person".

I had already read that. But are you aware that God the Father can appear to someone and yet that person would not necessarily see Him "face to face"? If the "vision" I had of God the Father in a dream happened in a "waking vision" instead, I could say that "God the Father appeared to me in person", yet I would not be claiming that I had seen Him "face to face". It's not just "semantics", either.

However, as I said before, that individual does seem to me, for several reasons, to be not of God. But I want to be careful in my discernment, and not commit one of the sins of the Pharisees.

allshookup,

Personally, I believe that the Two Witnesses will be two men born in the "last generation", that they will be two men born just prior to (or in) the "Last Days". I believe one will be Jewish and one will be Gentile. (I'm not sure which one will be Jewish or which one will be Gentile. [Humor.]) I also believe that they are grown men living today, and likely about to begin (within a few years, anyway) their ministry. I believe they probably don't know each other, and perhaps are not even sure of their calling yet. Most likely both of them know that God has called them, individually, to be the Two Witnesses, but I believe it is possible they have so far only received "hints" from God that this will be their "ministry". Perhaps God will call them in a similar manner to how he called Saul-who-became-Paul: dramatically, quickly, and clearly. If this is so, then it would seem He would do so only a few years, at most, prior to the beginning of their ministry, for after Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus, it was not long until he went off by himself to be instructed by the Lord for about 3 years, before preaching (if I recall the Biblical account correctly). I imagine they will be over 30 years of age, and probably younger than 70, but this is just my personal feeling, not something the Bible really indicates one way or another.

I don't believe that either one of them will be female. I believe that if one was female, God would not have allowed His Word to be inaccurate in calling both of them by the masculine form (in Greek) for "prophet" - rather, I believe He would have said something like, "These two will prophesy...", or "This prophet and this prophetess...". Furthermore, in all other cases of God's calling an individual to a major ministry, they have all been male. I understand that now, in Christ, "there is neither male nor female", but that is referring to salvation, not to roles in the Church - if it referred to more than salvation, then God wouldn't have had Paul write that women are not to teach men or to speak/preach in church, and the Holy Spirit wouldn't have taught that the man is the head of the household, the head of the woman. Women can be prophetesses - but the Two Witnesses are of another "order" of prophet, in that they have a public and worldwide ministry; all such, in the Bible, have been men.

It would be out of character, contrary to the pattern shown in the Bible, for God to call a woman to be one of the Two Witnesses. This is not proof that they are both men, but it is very strong evidence that they are to be men.

Godsword thankyou for sharing

i agree with you on the order of man and woman. that in Christ there is niether. as far as salvation however. tho woman can be any of the 5 callings. they ought not teach or preach over a man or anything over a man. however prophecy is a different ministry ...it is not over another but eye to eye.
Deborah the Judge...Judging is a prophetic calling. and she was prophetic in her judging over Isreal. men woman children

i wouldnt say that only men had major roles in the old testament. but in the sense of the order of man and woman surely men were overwhelmingly by 100% chosen as leaders because God cannot go against himself.

all the woman who followed Christ and were written about had major roles
Ruth whom Chrsit came from the line of
Esther
Deborah
Mary Magdalan
Mary the Mother of Jesus
the woman who hid the men of God

So a woman can't teach over a man? So if a woman has a son. she is not aloud to talk to him?

QUOTE(flyingsquirrel @ Jan 31 2008, 08:36 AM) [snapback]145504[/snapback]

So a woman can't teach over a man? So if a woman has a son. she is not allowed to talk to him?

Is that son a man? If so, she shouldn't teach him Scripture, nor should she have Scriptural authority over him. Even so, the Bible only mentions these things in relation to church gatherings, so perhaps the mother could, if the son is a man, teach him Scripture, on a one-to-one basis. The idea, I think, is that God wants men in positions of Scriptural authority and leadership, and not to be "emasculated" by having women have authority over them, particularly in regard to Scripture and the Church. Lest you be offended by this, remember that God has already placed man as head over the woman in the household, and if a woman was allowed to have Scriptural authority over a man, this could result in all kinds of potential contradictory conflicts in the home. (A woman might be pastor of a church, where she would have Scriptural authority over her husband [who would not be a pastor there, let's say], but at home her husband would be her "head", and have authority over her? Too much potential for confusion, and strife, in that relationship.)

rightly divide the word of God.

the bible clearly teaches to train up your child in the way he should go and for children to honor thier parents.

this is not what the thread is about please take a debate aobut this elsewhere

many blessings to you flying

To Godsword, Allshookup, and researcher, and to all others who read this.

I'm going to share with you a prophetic word. This prophetic word was given as PERSONAL INSTRUCTION to THE PROPHET, ELIJAH, from the Lord, Himself, and is self explanatory.

To settle all of your arguments about the Two Witnesses, you MUST HAVE KNOWN that there was somone out there in this world who could give TESTIMONY about them.

Remember John, the Baptist? He was the forerunner to Jesus Christ and the ONLY human witness to Him.

I say 'test the spirits' of this message, if any of you truly understand what this means. Go directly to the Lord for confirmation.
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ELIJAH

Matthew 17:11-12, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished.”

Malachi 4:5, See, I will send the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.”

And, “As the hour draws near, so shall I send my power upon you, and you shall go forth proclaiming my Word, and then shall you go forth proclaiming my judgment, and then shall you go forth and take my sword…”

“Look up and rest in the comfort that you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you from amongst all the face of this earth, to go forth in my name, as a Prophet of God from on High, to proclaim the Restoration, to proclaim that God will be coming to judge the wicked, and that He will smite the earth, and that He will destroy this nation.”

“As you go forth you will be my representative, you will be my prophet on the earth, you will point and you will say, ‘Thus saith the Lord..’ because it will be my Word, it will be my action, it will be my power.”

“It is written in my Word that Elijah surely must come first to restore all things, as I have stated in my Word so shall you go forth and restore all things.”

“So that is why I must send you out, my prophet, to declare that the Living God is not pleased with them, that He is not pleased with their sins, that He is not pleased with their actions, and He is not pleased with their idolatry.”

“That’s why I must send my prophet, that is why I am sending you out---to proclaim my judgments in the name of God, in the name of the Living God, in my name, the name of Jesus Christ.”

“This is why I must send you out---to proclaim devastating judgments so they will know that these judgments are from God!”

“That’s why I must send Elijah! That’s why I must send my judgments! That’s why my judgments will come out of your mouth! That’s why my judgments will be fulfilled! When you prophesy them, for then they will know that the Living God lives, and He has power over the elements and the water and the wind.”

“I tell you, build yourself up strong! For it is a mighty task! And you cannot wave and you cannot sway but you have to stand strong, knowing that I have sent you out there, for this ministry to rebuke and reprove the world of their sin and to bring forth my judgment.”

“Every word that comes out of your mouth will touch their hearts, and this will be the final way in which I will reach out to them, for these are the latter days and the end times are yet to come.”

“I will give you power over the waters; I will give you power over the fire; I will give you power over the weather; I will give you power over the wind; and you shall prophesy of this judgment over this nation.”

“The power that I shall give you will be so utterly destructible that there will be none that can come against you! You will be totally invincible! And the judgements which you will proclaim will cause much burden, much grief, much torment in the hearts of others that are looking on.”

INDICTMENT AGAINST GOD’S PEOPLE

“My people are estranged, they have left me; I ask you to share my burden, for I am grieved and I am heavy hearted, and the time is come, the time is come for me to bring forth my judgment for they have not turned their heads towards me.”

“Religion today is like leprosy; the people are indwelling in this false religion. It is like a leprosy that has grown on them and is ready to kill them and break them; and they are dying, they are dying and they do not know it. They are in the pit and they do not know it, they are blind and they do not know it. Religion is killing them, it is suffocating them and it has blinded them to the truth—the truth of My Word and of my vision for them.”

“The institutions of righteousness are corrupt, full of extortion, full of filth, full of strife.”

“For my axe is laid bare to every tree that bears not fruit; it shall be hewn down and cast into the fire; not one of those will be left for they bear not fruit, for they shine forth not my light, they are but a hindrance. They shall be hewn and cast down to make way for those who bear fruit and who shine forth my light; who bear fruit and water and feed the rest—those they shall make a way for. The rest shall be cut down for they are wicked and they thrive on their own juice that that juice will kill them.”

“From the most grievous sinner to the most righteous of God’s children, I have all given them a chance, I have all at one point called them; I have called them and asked them to come out and to serve me.”

“I have called them; I have searched each one’s heart and I have called them, from the most grievous, from the most terrible sinner, to the most righteous.”

“But I tell you! I have gone to each one of them. I have searched each one of their hearts and they have known that I have called them and I have tried to woo them to me and talk to them. But yet they turn not to me, yet they turn not to me.”

“I have given them a chance; I died on the cross for all sinners, I died on the cross for all without respect of persons, that all may be saved, that not one should be perished except the one that betrayed me.”

“They reject all that I have for them, so they shall see my judgment! For now they shall see what I have in store for them! For they chose the world, they chose the world!”

“I came for them all, without respect of persons I died on the cross; I bled for them! I bled and I died and I was crucified for them; and they know this! And they know this in their heart that I came to save them from the evil one, but yet they turn away, because they look at this world and they are choked by the cares of this world.”

“Woe be unto them! For I came to them just as I came unto you. I pleaded and I wooed them; I asked them to turn their hearts, I asked them to turn their face, that I would take care of their problems, that I would take care of their anguish and their grief and their troubles.”

RESTORATION

“The children of God shall be united under one Spirit, the Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit that reveals all truth from the throne of God, the Spirit that reveals the beginning from the end, the end from the beginning; this is my Spirit, the Holy Spirit, it will unite all the true children of God.”

“There will be many who are hungry for the Word of God. There will be many who are hungry for the truth. There will be many who will come to the truth, and there will be many who will come to hear you preach the Word of God in all its purity; they are hungry for the truth; they are hungry for their God; and they will come to the light.”

“They must become warriors for Christ; they must proclaim the name of God; the light must shine forth, and the Word of God must be proclaimed.”

“The truth must go forth, the light must shine; the Word of God must be proclaimed; the evil spirits must be smashed; the saints must come out of their caves.”

“I say, go forth! Go forth and be a light! Show them! Show them that they can be healed, if they but come to my throne, if they but shed this falseness, the lies, the hypocrisy. Just come to my throne and I shall heal them and they shall be with me and we shall live in my Father’s mansion as one, as one family.”

“Only those that turn to me, and realize that I am supreme, and that only in me is there true reality, and that this world is not reality, that this world is just a stage; only those who turn to me and see me as their only hope, as their only salvation, as their true reality, them I shall pluck from this earth and they shall be with me in paradise.”

“I came that all may know me; I came that all may have the knowledge that you have; I came for all that I should reveal wisdom to all.”

You will be my light. You will be my beacon. You will be the light in the world in these latter days. And you will show them that the Holy God is pure without blemish or spot, and that He wants them to be pure without blemish or spot; that they should come to me as a pure bride, a bride that I am proud to show to my Father, that He will accept and say, “Yes, they are right, bring them into my mansion.”

“The bride will know, the bride will see that you are pure and holy; I ask that you be holy as I am holy, perfect yourselves, cleanse yourselves, make your paths straight, make sure that you are holy.”

“This is one of your missions, to bring about the Restoration; as they come to you they will see the truth and they shall perfect themselves through your word and your admonitions and your doctrine, they shall perfect themselves with spot or without blemish.”

“And, when they hear your voice, they will know that this is the voice of the Lord, this is the voice of their Shepherd. And my sheep will come, my sheep will come out of their hiding, my sheep will come out of their sins, my sheep will come out of their works, my sheep will come out of their vanity and frivolity and their programs!”

SAN FRANCISCO

“My heart is heavy, as I see all that goes on in this city my heart is heavy for all the sins and all the abominations and all the wickedness and evil that I see—I cannot bear, I cannot bear! I see sins that you don’t even know about, that you cannot even imagine, and my heart is weary; I ask you to look at this city the way I look at it.

This city is evil and wicked and my judgment is so right for this city; every citizen, every citizen hates God, they walk in their own ways, they walk in their own lust, they walk in their own depravity, they are wretched and they are naked and they are hungry and they don’t even know it. Their face they turn towards themselves, they try to glorify themselves, they try to adorn themselves, they try to cover up, but I see their hearts, their heart is far from me, and my heart is heavy, I am very sad and I am very heavy hearted.

This city hates God and it hates me; the mention of my name and they turn their head and they harden their heart and their back stiffens and they do not want to speak of me; my name itself is like a bad word in this city; this city hates God and this city hates me.

The sins of this city cry out to me to avenge this city with my wrath; this city is evil! The sins of this city are worse than Sodom and Gomorrah! The wickedness that prevails! The wretchedness! The emptiness!

This is why I have brought you to this city as a light—that you will show this city that the Living God sees their sins and He is ready to avenge them!

I cannot speak of their sins, I cannot speak of their wickedness and evil; I am so heavy! I am so heavy hearted! But this city grows in wickedness and evil every day and I am ready to lay my hand bare! I am ready to pierce my sword through their hearts! So they know that I am alive and that they are hurting me, and they are hurting who gave them the very breath which they breath is from me, and they turn their heads away from me, they turn their hearts away from me!
I am grieved! I am very sad! But my justice I will mete out with my wrath and my judgment! I ask you to see this city! I ask you to see their eyes! I ask you to see their hearts the way that I see them! I am grieved! You must see this city the way I see it. So that when you bring forth my judgment you will know it comes with all justice! I ask you to see this city the way I see it!

Raise your arm and take my sword; you will be my instrument to bring forth my vengeance, my wrath.

This is the day, this is my day of fury, for I am very angry with the wicked and my wrath shall come upon them.

When the sun shines brightest, that is your time, when the sun shines brightest and is right over head, you shall enter the crowd and you shall stand in their midst, you shall proclaim my name, you shall uplift my standard and you shall call my fire, you shall bring down my sword and they shall burn!

My fire shall come down and burn the wicked, they shall be as stubble; they shall burn as tares but the righteous shall stand; you shall tread the wicked and they shall not hurt you.

The wicked shall be stamped like pulp on the ground and my wrath shall be manifest; the day is at hand and you shall manifest my wrath! The fire of the Lord shall burn bright!

As the Lord moves in with judgment and wrath, the demons shall move out with anger and fury, and there shall be fire and there shall be smoke and there shall be stench so strong that the righteous will have to turn their head because the stench will be so bad; the judgment of the Lord will fall strong upon this city.

This city is San Francisco, this “pretty”, this so-called “glorious” city of San Francisco shall be abased, shall be abased, shall become like cinders, they shall burn, this city shall burn, this city shall be abased, because my Word will cut their lies, their hypocrisy, their sin, and their evil, shall cut them asunder, and this city will be abased.

I have looked upon this city and it is wicked, it is wicked; and as you go forth in the gap, and as you confront the enemy, you will tell them, you will tell them of the coming wrath and doom that this city will experience, you shall tell them that not one stone will be left unturned.

And they will look at you and they will think that you are mad; but you will tell them that the Living God has said that this city will be destroyed, not one stone will be left unturned, because I have visited this city and I have seen no good.”

AMERICA

“As I have given you visions and messages of my judgment and wrath, so will you go forth. And so will you proclaim in graphic detail of my judgments, and of my fire, and of death all over this land; and of waters that will rise, and of the stars that will darken, and of the wind that will rush.”

“You shall prophesy of this, and I will give you power over the waters, I will give you power over the fire, I will give you power over the weather, I will give you power over the wind, and you shall prophesy of this judgment over this nation.”

“I have forsaken them now, my wrath shall come and you shall prophesy in graphic detail of their judgment, of their death, of their sure doom, and of the dead that will be from one end of this nation to the other.”

“This whole nation shall see my fire, this whole nation shall be in confusion, this whole nation will be under strong delusion, they will not know, I shall shake their very roots, I shall shake their very roots and they will not know what has happened.”

“For the fire will sweep through this nation. And there will be strong confusion and strong delusion. And there will be panic everywhere, there will be panic everywhere, people running to and fro, trying to hide with no place to hide; they will jump into the sea for they will not know where else to go; and they will drown and they will kill themselves.”

“My fire will sweep through this nation. And there shall be turmoil; and there shall be chaos; there will be no place to hide, no place to hide. For I will seek them out of their dark corners and I shall pull them and I shall kill them; for those that reject me, there shall be no place to hide, no place to hide.”

“They will look at you as a fool. They will look at you as a fool masquerading in a fool’s paradise. For you speak of death; for you speak of judgment; for you speak of darkness; for you speak of fire; for you speak of my wrath. And they, all they see is sunshine, green trees, fair weather, and they frolic in their folly, and they have fun, and they enjoy, and they laugh, and they drink, and they become drunken, and they sleep.”

“For all of a sudden my fire will come! For all of a sudden my judgment will come! For all of a sudden when they are asleep and when they are drinking and when they are frolicking in their folly, my judgment will come! And they will know that a prophet has been among them, for he has spoken of it, of my judgment, and my wrath.”

JESUS CHRIST

“I am the Son of the Living God, and no man comes to the Father but through me, and all those who reject me, Jesus Christ, they are condemned! There is no way out for them! Their sin is that they reject me, they reject me—the Son of God—they deny me, and those who deny me I shall deny to the Father.
They deny my crucifixion. They deny that I died for their sins and that they can live with me in paradise as long as they come to me and believe in me. They deny that I can give them everlasting life; they deny me—this is their sin—that they deny the Living God, the Son of the Living God, and that they are wicked, they choose evil, and they choose wickedness.
This is their sin—they deny the Living God. They deny the Son of the Living God. They deny Jesus Christ, for I am all truth, I am all righteousness, and without me there is no way, they shall perish, this is the truth, that if they come to me, the Son of the Living God, I shall give them everlasting life.
It is me that shall save them, I am the Savior of the world, I am the Redeemer, I am Everlasting Life, I am green pastures, I am everlasting, and I shall give them everlasting waters so that they will never thirst and they shall never hunger.
For my Father so loved the world that He sent me on earth to walk the earth and to set sinners free, to set the down trodden free, to give sight to the blind, to heal the wounded, to heal the sick, to set free the captive.
I came to save sinners; I came to save sinners from the fires of everlasting hell; I came to set them free; I came to give them everlasting life; that they might have life abundantly, that they may live with me and my Father in my Father’s mansion. I came for all. And for those who accept me and for those who serve me, they shall be given abundantly; they shall be treated as sons of God and kings of heaven!
But for those who reject me, for those who reject the Son who the Father has sent, there is only fire left. For I came, for I came to save them out of the pit, for I came to save them, for I came for them that they may live with me.
But if they reject me, if they reject me, woe! For I only can send them to hell. For that is all that is left for them, for that is all that my Father has left for them. He has done all that He can. He has sent them His only Son, to serve, to serve them, to save them, to bring them to the truth, to bring them to the life, but they would rather choose darkness.
I am the light, I am the way, I am the truth! No man comes to the Father but through me. I am the Son of God and only through me can they see the Father; I am the Son of god, I lay down my life for them, and if they reject me there is no other way; I am the way, I am the truth, I am the light; my Father sent me to save the world, and those who receive me I will receive, I will accept, I will tell of them to my Father, and they shall be in heaven with me and they shall be in paradise, their name shall be written in the Book of Life and they shall have everlasting life.
But those who reject me there is no way but hell, there is no other way, for I am the way, I am the truth, I am the light; I was sent to save sinners, I was sent to save them.”
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There is more Biblical truism and purity in this message than all of the speculation you can find on the Prophetic internet sites combined.

All you need to do is to truly listen to that 'voice' which speaks to your own heart.

Ed

Ed,


I very, very rarely will do this, because I am not often this certain, but I say you are a false prophet. It is absolutely obvious that the words you claim are God's are your own, or inspired by Satan as an attempt to deceive. The repetitious nature of your "message", repeating phrases immediately and absolutely unnecessarily (for example: "That is why I mujst", "That's why I must", "this is why I must", "that's why I must", "that's why I must"), combined with the uncharacteristic (of God) encouragements like, "You will be invincible!" (focusing too much on the person, and not on God's power), and the nonsensical phrases like, "“The power that I shall give you will be so utterly destructible that there will be none that can come against you!" (even granting that "destructible" is a typo, and should have been "indestructible", it still would be nonsensical, for it is not "power" that is "destructible" or not, it is a person or thing that would or would not be).

You are a false prophet, Ed - whether intentionally or not. Repent, and seek the Lord. Put away your sins, your pride, and humble yourself before Jesus.

False prophets are easily detected by the believer who knows the scriptures. By all means ... repent and turn to the Lord.

QUOTE(Stephen @ Feb 1 2008, 09:22 AM) [snapback]145801[/snapback]

False prophets are easily detected by the believer who knows the scriptures. By all means ... repent and turn to the Lord.

Stephen, was your last sentence directed to Ed alone?

Alright, then - I win.

May I suggest that one of the witneses will be the Apostle John. Here is why I think this. In John 21: 20-23 says:

20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?” 21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”
23 Then this saying went out among the brethren that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?”

This here may signify the this Apostle will be raised up in the last days to testify again...also:

Revelation 10: 11 says:

11And he said unto me, "Thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations, and tongues and kings."

Again this signifies he may indeed be one of the 2 witnesses. Also Elijah.


...realize who it is who these two prophets will be going up against. Satan made flesh...the antichrist. I do not believe this person to be born of man and a woman but of Satan and a woman. Just like what the fallen angels did in Genisis 6 when they left their first estate and defiled themselves with women and begat offspring by them.

Has anyone here ever wondered what happened in heaven that a full one third of all the holy angles fell and rebelled against the will of God? These angels were in Heaven and how many billions of these angles fell? What happened in God's holy heaven, and what was so distateful to them that they rebelled against Him?

Is it because they would not humble themselves and serve man, a lower creation, whom God created in his image to sit with Him on His throne? Is this why they hate us so much? Is it not because the pride of these angels who would not humble themselves to serve the lower being who would rise up to be their judge? Is it not because of their jealousy of what we would become in our next state of being? Is it not because of their pride?

...our names were written down before the world was ever created.

The Son (Body of Christ) Exalted Above Angels

Hebrews 1:

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:


“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:


“ I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:


“ Let all the angels of God worship Him.”


7 And of the angels He says:


“ Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”


8 But to the Son He says:


“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

and for us did the Son of Man come...

5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:


“ What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,[a]
And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”[b]

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

~~~~~~~~

But so that I do not offend the Angels who kept their first estate and humbled themselves before God I say, God bless you forever and ever!!! The zeal that Michael has for God and for His Saints is hotter than any star.

But what am I but a slothful being steeped in mire and sin that I should be comparing myself to angels who have not sinned? And what am I that God should hear or save me? ...For He saved me by His grace through faith. By His grace alone...and by His mercy I stand, clothed with the righteousness of Jesus so that I may be sinless before the throne of God. So where is boasting of any of God's creations? ...there is none...so that God may be all and in all.

"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."

Hi Everyone,

I am new here, i just want to write i believe the two witnesses are the church and isreal - the root and the branches and the wild ingrafted branch.
They are dispised by the beast which stands for satans kingdom on earth, the beast kills them and they partake in the ressurection to life so they are savedby grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Messiah.


when the counterfiet peace and security comes people will carry on marrying, eating and drinking and theyWILL still do christmas even after the Christians jewish and gentile (By physical birth) for all are truly jews-are killed, they send themselves presents in celebration happy they can get on with living their own lives with self wills with the beasts' scientific miracualous society ruling all the worlds affairs apprently victorious.
the rightious by faith saints of old and the gentile church and the jewish believers in messiah all follow the rock christ. they have a testimony - there is only one testimony, that of Jesus Christ.

My understanding of this is based upon my own revelation of scripture i dont claim it to be totally right but i gleam this from what i have read in scripture-The Good news of JESUS CHRIST and HIS MESSAGE CHIEFLY The book of revelation and the book of zachariah .

Carl

HI,
I have just joined, Sorry to start of like this but i too believe Figurative sodom egypt to be outside the city gate of Jerusalem.
Jeruslaem was in God's eyes the Holy City, it has Prophetic meaning even to this day for it is figurative of the NEW JERUSALEM WHICH COMES DOWN FROM HEAVEN , as is isreal the kingdom figurative of the Gods Kingdom of heaven ?

And isnt it true that it was forbidden for the jews that they execute on the passover? isnt that why it was handed to the roman pagan authorities to execute Jesus?

Jerusalem was the centre of the Passover celebrations, The Holy city.
Just because God called Jerusalem Figurativeley a harlot in remonstration, it doesnt mean she literally was, she may have acted like it th ough,just like the true church is called naked and blind and other things it is never called the whore of babylon. for it isnt.

But in a spiritual sense all that Jerusalem stood for was HOLY whereass EGYPT AND SODOM WAS A LAND OF THE PAGANS AND THEY WERE NOT OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF GOD, But the church is in Gods eyes redeemed even though sometimes naked and blind it legallt cant be paganised or like sodom, and jerusalem the city is figurative of the bride of christ the church.

HEBREWS SAYS JESUS WENT OUTSIDE THE CAMP OF GODS PEOPLE TO DIE ON OUR BEHALF SURELY THAT CAMP WAS WHERE THE HOLY OF HOLIES WAS? AND WE NOW LOOK FOR A HEAVENLY HOME AND WE TOO ARE TO GO OUTSIDE AND FOLLOW JESUS EXAMPLE BY NOT LOOKING AT THE EARTHLY THINGS BUT RATHER THE SPIRITUAL THINGS WHICH LAST.

So he went outside the camp to die then he opened the holy of holies through his sacrifice so the way to God was open forever , God raised him from the dead and he went into Heaven itself and sat down at Gods right hand from all his work because he completed it on the cross - . and opened for all the sabbath day of rest)


Carl

Hi Everyone,

BY THE WAY THEY ARE NOT TWO PROPHETS BUT TWO WITNESSES
THEY ARE APPOINTED AS WITNESSES TO THE GLORY OF GOD AND PREACH HIS SALVATION THAT IS FOUND IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE.
the above is totally correct


I am new here, i just want to write i believe the two witnesses are the church and isreal - the root and the branches and the wild ingrafted branch.
this is my present understanding.

NOTICE THIS!!!

WHEN THEY FINISH THEIR TESTIMONY THEY ARE KILLED. true

THAT TESTIMONY IS THE GOSPEL. true
( THe last preaching of the good news before the end) ?

OFCOURSE SOME WILL HAVE HEARD AND BELIEVE AND BE SAVED. true is should think
THEY WILL BE THERE STILL LIVING AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST. if they arent dead they will be- so true

AND THEY WILL BE PERSICUTED ALSO BUT SOME WONT BE KILLED BUT WILL BE CHANGED IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE JUST AFTER THE TWO WITNESS ARE RAISED FROM THE DEAD ON THE THIRD DAY. - true

FOR THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST THEN THOSE STILL ALIVE SHALL BE CHANGED THEN CAUGHT UP ALSO TO BE WITH THE LORD FOREVER. def true


They are dispised by the beast which stands for satans kingdom on earth, the beast kills them and they partake in the ressurection to life so they are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Messiah.
But by their testomony SOME WILL BE EVEN SAVED AT THE VERY LAST MINUTE BEFORE CHRIST COMES!! surely this is true?

THERE IS NO DIVISION IN THE BODY OF CHRIST. true
ONE THING THOUGH,
THOSE WHO HAVE DIED AND THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE ON EARTH, THAT IS THE ONLY DISTINCTION, BUT THERE IS STILL NO DIVISION. that is true

when the counterfiet peace and security comes people will carry on marrying, eating and drinking
true

and they WILL STILL "do christmas "(THE ROMAN CATHOLIC FABLE WILL STILL BE ACCEPTABLE -for any god goes so who cares lets party). surely they will

Even after most of the Christians, both jewish and gentile (By physical birth)- for all are truly jews-are killed.
Through their testimony some will BELIEVE!!! and be alive on earth.
surely true ,Still some who are Christs will be alive on earth at his return the only way this happens is if you dont die before he returns, its simple there is no special requirement i.e you dont have to be of a certain race you just have to be physically alive on earth and believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and be a human being.

For God says his word will not return to him viod but will fulfill the purpose it was sent.
true

there is no NEW TESTIMONY the only thing any prophet should do is hold to the testimony of Jesus christ for there is no new message nor is there need for any special prophets with a secret message for the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus Christ.. TRUE

The world send eachother presents in celebration happy they can get on with living their own lives with self wills with the beasts' scientific miracualous society ruling all the worlds affairs apparently victorious, UNTIL JESUS COMES AND DESTROYS THE MAN OF SIN AND HIS EARTHLY BEASTLY ROMAN RULE .
TRUE
(The man of sin is Probably a pope). The popery is definitley of antichrist spirit for they claim to be God on earth, and come in his name but are most assuredly not annointed or the annointed one or christ for they preach idols and men and even themselves as God and the thing they rule over as the only way to God and ignore the fact that christ not his body is the way even though they are not of him for they declare themselves to be him.. and also declare those who went to great lengths to deny him Jesus as the Son of God, as in the case of the demonized liar muhammed and his wicked heresy,islam, where they proclaim allah is the same God as the father of our Lord Jesus Christ ,yet allah the demon claimed he has no son and rightly so for he has no power of creation or reproduction never mind begetting, so all the blaspemies of the roman church shall be shown to be what they are.

The popery may be the second beast / false prophet for they truly took over from the roman empire and also they gav birth to an empire and handed over the torch of error spreading to another empire the british which setup the present situation for isreal and had a man as head of its church just like the roman catholic one and acted protesting yet retained the apostles creed which talks of believing in one holy apostolistic catholic church even to this day. So as i say i think they could be the second beast which takes on all the authority and power of the first ( which i personally see represented elsewhere as the woman who rides the first beast .I think the popery is not THE FIRST BEAST BUT IT MAY BE, as may be the english throne also for they aswell as the roman empire suffered a great wound by the sword and were restored . in romes case the catholic church took over in englands the monarchy was restored plus both englnd and italy invaded isreal (Jerusalem)from the north to east to south. and england uprooted three at its begining, wales ireland and scotland. yet the rcc seemingly uprooted three to take over from the roman empire also so its a shadowing of things that fit.
some could argue the english throne and its church took over from the vatican , and this is a reasonable assumption for the work would be pleasing to the popes, so they act like agents doing his work and honour him or them whilst historically in public claiming to be opposed to eachother, yet the creed affirms ascent to romes authority all along in plain view, yet unrealised by man. (which to me sounds like a work of satanic deception quite astounding in it power, when you consider the time, centuries of this being the case.

The rightious by faith saints of old of Isreal and the gentile church and the jewish believers in messiah all follow the rock christ. they have a testimony - there is only one testimony, that of Jesus Christ.
TRUE

IMPORTANT

My understanding of this Particular aspect of prophecy is based upon my own present understanding of scripture i dont claim it to be totally right but i gleam this from what i have read in scripture-The Good news of JESUS CHRIST and HIS MESSAGE CHIEFLY The book of revelation and the book of zachariah .

Carl
Jesus Christ is The Son Of God That is truth and i know that to be true.

dont take offence you have every right to your own opinion and most views are interesting but this is a poll for those who believe they are individuals. as the tittle says. i think some of you are missing the tittle lol but thats ok....
but thanks for sharing... and also welcome...

the Lord gives the two individuals 5 tittles ifyou will..prophet candlestick olive tree annointed ones and witnesses. zechariah ...olive tree candle sticks and annointed ones...Revelation 11 prophets and witnesses
the two have bodies. as in flesh. they cannot be angels groups pages bound up THe HOLY BIBLE> but they represent the WORD. JESUS

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Prophets a given by how their sole calling is to prophesy

anointed one's

this word indicates individuals persons.

anyway...

In regard to some saying Jerusalem is being called sodom and it not refering to The nations where all the two witnesses are spread.
And that Jesus was crucified within the gate of the city of Jerusalem.



Hebrews
10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. 11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

The gate refers to Jerusalem doesnt it ?>
St paul finished by clearly stating he was refering to a city jerusalem?
and we are to look not at it but the heavenly one.
In the same book the dispute is centred on there is mention of a heavenly city.

carl

Hi thanks for the welcome,

Supposing you are right and i am mistaken and wrong...

These two stand before the Lord of all the earth, they are in the presense of God, they are in Christ then yes?.
Therefore if they are in Christ they have a special witness?

A witness a testimony a word other than the two olive trees that are figaritvely first isreal then the ingrafted gentiles?

I wonder what these two men will preach if they are in christ?
and if they preach the same as those appointed as christs' witnesses why are they in particular pointed out as somehow more significant or do you think they will preach a different message than the one of repentance of sins and faith in jesus?
Is there something to add to the word of truth that is in the Church?
Is there a testimony the world needs to hear other than the Good news of Jesus.?
will there be a message a witness more vital than the good news of jesus just prior to the end of the age grace that the world needs to hear
another message spoken of as being in sackloth and repentance?


And the Spirit they will be anointed with what will be its purpose to preach the good news to the poor or something else?
The Spirit of Prophecy is the Testimony of Jesus Christ.


carl.

The word says that there is not greater or lesser in the Kingdom of God however he does say the greatest is the one that serves.

there is no greater or lesser value but there are differnt callings and levels So to speak.

Mark 10:37-40 37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”
38 But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?”
39 They said to Him, “We are able.”
So Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink the cup that I drink, and with the baptism I am baptized with you will be baptized; 40 but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared.”

this is not something that is to cause jealousy or make any one feel lesser it is what it is there must be another explanation. its a mystery to some but God remains Good and Fair

Ezekiel 33:17
“Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair!
this is in the context of the Lord rewarding the righteous and punishing the wicked.

They will have a message that is the Gospel and reveal what the Church thinks they have right but what is right. this will unify the remnant and reveal those who claim to be a believer but are not and they will reveal things that people dont know but not that people couldn't find out if they sought God Intimately and some will and some will already know the message coming there are also a specail 144,000 the Lord talks about they are not more valuable than those who are not of that group just like the Church who are Jews by spiritual adoption. who are indeed coming back to their heritage anyway are not lesser than native Jews who of some dont even believe Jesus has come or arent even Jewish. Just cuz you live in Isreal does not make you a Religous. In fact as John the Baptist was consider the Elijah to come He wittnessed in the Spirit of Elijah but thats not what made him valuable unique or important it was because he was John the Baptist with the same value and importance of the woman who hid the two servants of God and God spared her for it.
many of this day are annointed with the spirit of Elijah and or another calling of the OT or NT but thats not what makes them great it is who they are. many in the end times will opperate in teh spirt of the two witnesses maybe not with the same power or authority but certainly the same purpose and desire to glorify God as an individual. we novelize the servants of the past too much we are to mezmerized it is good to be moved and desire to prophesy as the word says above all the gifts desire to prophesy but you must separate the purpose of God in a calling and your personal unique calling as child of God. Some times we almost get trapped in to the Enemy's sin of thinking well i want to be greater than. Or like another Elijah Moses David Paul. To Desire great callings for the purpose of souls is one thing to Desire Great calls to be greater than another is a serious Danger.

you wrote;
"The word says that there is not greater or lesser in the Kingdom of God however he does say the greatest is the one that serves."


hi,
You answered about greater or lesser, my question was what is the difference in their message if they are two individuals instead of the whole body.

John the baptist was sent to make way for The Lord, he had a special ministry.

Now because the Lord has come there is no "special" ministry, there is nothing that is not common to the work of God through his body the church wherein resides the whole manifold wisdom of God.

There is no "special' annointing that is peculiar too only certain "individuals"

I maintain the two olive tress that have to be in the body of Christ or else they cant be standing before the Lord of All the earth- refer to believing isreal and the church.
I believe believing Isreal is depicted as its own olive tree because of its history/calling of those who believed before christ came and because of the plans of God for isreal both now and upto the end of all things, but all those things will be completed in isreals ingrafting again when they come out of unberlief.
the church is obvious for its the body now it is the other olive tree.

these two are witnesses and signs to the world on behalf of Christ in God.




A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down�that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring�those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.




These two witnesses are raised to life after the beast kills them, they are persicuted by the dragon who gives power to the beast as also depicted by the woman and her other offspring being persicuted by the great dragon, and then these "other offspring"[u] are seen going be caught upto heaven here and spoken of by st paul,[u] notice first the man child (Jesus) is caught upto Heaven -God's Throne/u] , then here we see The Lord of All the EARTHS TWO WITNESSES (the womans OTHER offspring likewise being first persicuted then killed then raised from the dead and caught upto be with the Lord in Heaven.)





is this a special ressurection?

No i believe it depicts the dead in christ rising first and appearing with jesus from the air or from heaven after the gospel's preaching is totally completed . After the two witnesses to what God wants witnessing to are raised inccoruptable at that split second those left alive and that have believed their (the two witnesses testimony i'e the good news of Jesus ) will also be changed inccoruptable and caught upto heaven.
But the verse on the two witnesses doesn't concentrate on that aspect, it speaks only of the ressurection of the dead in christ first .
both the dead in christ and those left alive in earth have a thing in common they are Both witnesses to the truth of God and his Christ and both are in THE position of what standing before the Lord of All the earth refers to .

Love in Christ,

Carl

LooktoJesusNOW,

QUOTE

Now because the Lord has come there is no "special" ministry, there is nothing that is not common to the work of God through his body the church wherein resides the whole manifold wisdom of God. There is no "special" anointing that is peculiar to only certain "individuals".

Where does it say any of that in the Bible? Furthermore, even if you were correct about all of the above, it wouldn't apply to the Two Witnesses IF, as is most often suggested, their ministry occurs AFTER the Rapture of the Church.

Hi , all the ministries of the church are clearly laid out in the new testament, as i state thereis no special secret minstry just as there is no special secret annointing or special gifts kept hidden for two men alone at the end of time .

If their ministry occurs after the ressurection of both the dead and the living believers and the CATCHING UP of both i see no evidence for such a thing in scripture. i see no evidence for such a thing in scripture.
there is ONLY ONE CATCHING UP
The word rapture is deceptive and should not be used by anyman in the body of christ.
For the word was used to invent a heresy.
Catching up is better.

you wrote

it wouldn't apply to the Two Witnesses IF, as is most often suggested, their ministry occurs AFTER the Rapture of the Church.

If their ministry happens after THE CATCHING UP there would be no point for their ministry because the door would be shut so why would they be preaching a message of repentance. to the world?
what you are saying is nonsense.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery;We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,

[b]at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.




I Thessalonians 4

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

caught up together
gathered to ,those are speaking of the same event .
This occurs at The Lord's Coming OR The Lords Descending from Heaven, which is describing the same event which will be The Day Of Christ when the dead in christ are raised as are those who are in christ alive on the earth they also are changed and receive ressurection bodies also, and then are caught upto be with The Lord Jesus forever.
This is heralded by the trumpet sounding and also the last trump which both mean the same things.
then is the END.
No man can be raptured or raised or saved by a message of repentance after that and so the two witnesses come after? for what purpose for all would be totally completed so who are they preaching to and hw can they be killed by the beast? didnt the brightness of the Lord 's destroy the beast and his kingdom ?
Anyway no one left could repent so why would they be preaching a testimony of repentance in sackloth and ashes?

<< 2 Thessalonians 2 >>
King James Bible
1 Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,




and by our gathering together unto him,


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

LOOktoJEsus...


the Two witnesses are preparing the way for the Return of Christ. Just as John the Baptist prepared the way.

the whole body who is Truly following him, Sanctifying themselves and living with no lie in their mouth will be preparing the way for Christ Return.

i did answer it. you missed it.

weather you think their is a special secret ministry or not and you think its a body or not there is one.

There is no secret ministry
you are twisting things if you think the good news should be preached in secret to believers or that the whole counsel of God is secret. the gospel is to be preached to ALL nations
The church has been preparing since its birth for the return of Jesus from heaven, this is not the exclusive activity just some selected few today who preach a secret gospel or have a secret ministry for there is no difference or THERE SHOULD NOT BE.
The whole body of christ have always been expecting jesus to come they didnt miss some secret ministry that only you or two witnesses are privy too.


I used the evidence of the message and so the minstry as being the same as the church as evidence to prove the two witnesses cannot be individuals with a different minstry or different message.


what you have said is precisely what im am saying, the good news of Jesus is the message they will preach and they are a prophetic symbolgy of the church and believing isreal preaching the good news of jesus before the end comes.

ALL SHOOK UP

You wrote

"they will reveal things that people dont know"

How do you know this?
what you are stating here is they will reveal a secret thing.


"but that that people couldnt find out if they sought God Intimately"


here you are saying that even if people in the church sought of God this new teaching , they couldnt recieve it from God even if they truly sought it from him


"and some will and some will already know the message coming"

but here you are contradicting you are saying some already know this secret teaching that will come.

And it stands to reason that if you already know all this you yourself know what this secret thing is
what is it?

that the organised church is falling away by coming together with false relgions and false gods?


Love In Christ

carl

Hi, the message you qouted from me was in reply to what Godsword had posted anyway.

Love In Christ

LooktoJesusNOW,

QUOTE

If their ministry happens after THE CATCHING UP there would be no point for their ministry because the door would be shut so why would they be preaching a message of repentance to the world?
What you are saying is nonsense.

"Nonsense"? Thank you for being so humble and civil in your reply. Anyway, in regard to your assertion that "the door would be shut" after the Rapture (if it happened): No, for if you read where Jesus says to Christians to "'Watch, and pray always that you might be counted worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man'", you would realize that, since salvation is absolutely NOT an issue of "worthiness", Jesus is speaking about what must be something like, if not exactly like, the Rapture.

QUOTE

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Neither this verse, nor any of the others you quoted, necessarily requires that the Rapture could not take place. Thus, they do not of necessity argue against a Rapture. The verse does not say "at Jesus' Second Coming" - it does not limit His "coming" to His return to Earth in glory. If Jesus returns in two "stages" (first, to gather those Christians that have been counted "worthy" to escape the Tribulation; second, to return to Earth to defeat the Antichrist and to set up His Millennial Kingdom), then "at His coming" can refer to both instances. "Then cometh the end" would thus simply refer to what happens after His final "coming".

Once again, regarding Christians and "worthiness": There are a number of cases where Jesus, and one or more of the Apostles, indicated that "worthiness" could be an issue regarding salvation (for example, Peter or Paul, in preaching to Jews who then rejected the message of the Gospel, said to them that they had apparently decided that they were not "worthy" of salvation, or something like this - of course, Peter or Paul may have been being very slightly sarcastic in making this comment, and not meant it as actual fact) (and Jesus said that whoever did not pick up his cross and follow Jesus was not "worthy" to be His disciple). However, when Jesus made His comment, "'Watch, and pray always that you might be counted worthy...'", He was clearly speaking to Christians, to those who were "picking up their crosses and following Jesus", to those who would already be saved (as most directly indicated by His saying to "watch" [for the signs indicating His near return], and to "pray" [something non-Christians likely would not do, and whose prayers likely would not be "heard" by God, at least for the most part]).

The Rapture is a reward for obedient Christians. It is not an issue of salvation so much as it is an issue of being "worthy" of the particular reward of being taken to be with Jesus during the period of the particular and greatest Tribulation.

Finally, please read (or re-read) my earlier post (Post #94, on page 16 of this thread) wherein I shared my study which I titled, "The 'Camp', and a 'Typology'. Bear in mind the implications for the Church, the identity of the Two Witnesses, and the Rapture which are contained in the typology regarding Moses, Joshua, the 70 Elders, and Eldad and Medad - it seems absolutely clear to me that that typology was intentionally placed there by God, and that it represents what I said it does. If that is correct, then there will be a Rapture, it will take place prior to Jesus' Second Coming, and the Two Witnesses will be two individual members of the Church who will not be taken in the Rapture, in order to fulfill their mission on Earth.

YOur twisting it i never said that.

if it werent a secret there would be no threads on it.

where Lord they asked?

he replied

wherever there is a dead body there the vultures will gather.


heres your clue, what do vultures do? are they nice birds who take you to heaven when your taken and others are left behind?

Love in Christ
carl

I apologize to you and all shook up for any rudeness in my previous posts.

what i said was that they would be revealing what the church thought they had right....so truths that are wrongly taught...and what is actually right.....and i mis typed...sometimes i type too fast...what i meant to say was they but not that couldn't be found out by follwing Jesus and seeking HIm intimately...ill edit that...



your other post said i said that the gosple should be preached in secret. your talking about the message beinga secret. or being preached in secret.... I NEVER SAID THAT>....you said secret ministry then you switched and said preched in secret.. TWO DIFFERENT THINGS>


again IF you believe they are two individuals and alive.......poll and do you pray for them is the thread....there are lots of threads where they debate endless hours.



The two witnesses http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...=12213&st=0

Carl,

QUOTE

As I said, if you don't go in that catching away you're not part of the body of christ.

And how do you understand the passage where Jesus says, to Christians, that we are to "'Watch, and pray always that you might be counted WORTHY to escape all these things'"?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What you say to me is interesting. You don't know me or my walk. You should keep that in mind as you judge me.

A day hardly goes by that I don't seek true repentance from something, so thank you for caring so much.

The message I shared in this forum didn't come by my hand. It was given to me by another, someone whom I deeply trust, and this is rare since I TRUST NO MAN.

All men are liars, never to be trusted, for ALL have the curse of Adam.

I've asked all of you to 'test the spirits' in this message. We are COMMANDED to 'test the spirits'.

What this means is not only does the message have to conform to the Scriptural Word ( and it does if carefully studied), but also we are required to seek the Lord Himself for the conformation to the truth of the message. And this doesn't mean the use of semantics to tear down a message, but the spirit behind the message.

There is a logic here. IF it is the Holy Spirit which gives someone insight and discernment to 'share' a word, then it is the same Holy Spirit with which we can individually seek confirmation. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, and our FINAL ARBITRATOR. I say go directly to the Lord and hear what He has to say to you.

You should know the heavy price to be paid to be a 'false' prophet. They are judged by every utterance they make. They are held to FULL ACOUNT by the Lord. Their OWN SALVATION is at stake.

What this means, dear friend, is that we must ourselves 'test' the message, which I've done for the 17 years I held this message in secret before I was anointed to release it publicly after the 9/11 event. I had to be sure that this was truly from the Lord.

Let me share what was required of me before I could release this.

I had to be 'sifted' and refined through trials and numerous tests, not the least of which was to learn to conform my will to the will of God. I had to 'die' of self, literally to be willing to pay the price of freely offering up my own flesh before I could share this word. I had to be 'battle tested' to develop such faith and trust in the Lord that I knew I would be sustained even under the greatest of adversity.

Consider how many views people have from reading the same Scriptures. How is it we don't 'see' the same message? Why are there so many doctrines which all come from the same source?

It all boils down to how we each interpret what we read. So, how is it we can truly glean out and discern what is really the truth? This is why we are given the Holy Spirit, called the HELPER, the Spirit of Truth.

But this gift, in itself, doesn't help us unless we listen to and obey that voice which speaks to us. The Lord could be telling us one thing, but we choose to hear another thing. This is called our free will of choice.

You should know that the message is NEVER about the individual, who are mere vessels. It's a no win situation for them because they either OBEY the voice which speaks to them to do the will of God, or they shy away and don't share what the Lord wants them to share, thus disobeying Him, and heaping coals on their own heads.

There are 'many' out there who speak with a prophet's voice, but who don't understand the serious consequences behind what they say.

A true prophet is a 'mouthpiece' of the Lord, His way of reaching out to His people. The message is NEVER meant to be taken well by God's people. Evedince of this is how the prophets were treated. All were treated most horribly, persecucted, stoned, imprisoned, tortured, and even killed. And all of this came by the hand of God's own people. This is because the message was designed to point out sins in rebuke and a call for repentances. When the Lord speaks to His people, it is NEVER a feel good message.

The truth be told, we, God's people, have spiritually dumbed ourselves down spiritually to a spiritual state that we aren't worthy to be a true Bride of Christ, holy and pure, without spot or blemish.

If you have any arguments about this, then consider the standard of holiness the Lord had set for His people, found in Matthew 11:11, "Among those born of women, there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet HE WHO IS LEAST in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he (John)."

And our own calling is outlined as well. This is found in Matthew 10:37-39. We are called to carry our cross, putting the Lord above ALL THINGS even our own love of family, friends, and our own personal idols. And we are called to die of self. Matthew 10:39, "Whoever finds his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

Peter denied Christ THREE times. Why? Because Peter saw the handwriting on the wall when Jesus got arrested. Peter was afraid of his association with the Lord, for he was fearful of losing his own flesh as a consequence. So, when the rubber met the road, Peter denied Christ.

Why? Because if we put our own flesh above the Lord, He CANNOT use us.

Let us consider how many are afraid to come out of their caves to raise the banner of righteousness among the people. Where was the voice of God's people in the consequences of Roe VS. Wade in the mass killing of millions of babies in America? Where is the voice of God's people who refuse to stand against homosexuality which wars against even our own Lord's form of creation. let alone the church, the family unit, and our own children? Where is the voice of godly people when they vote, allowing wolves to enter into to our social structure and culture?

Should there be any surprise that America is MYSTERY BABYLON? God's people are IN HER! Yet, she is to be judged in a mighty judgment. Why is this?

Perhaps now it may be better understood how necessary it is for God's people to learn to 'die of self'.

This should come as no surprise. Acts tells us of the fate of the early Church, even the Apostles and godly men. ALL were persecuted, some thrown to the lions, others burned at the stake, some cruxified, and tortured and imprisoned. This was the price THEY HAD TO PAY for their walk with Christ.

Why should it be any different for the 'six' who must learn to OVERCOME, to be 'restored' to holiness, to be further refined in order to be a worthy Bride of Christ?

As you read Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, you will see what happens to this element of God's people. They will be betrayed by family and friends, and also by the HARLOT. They will be brought before the courts and the synogogues and give their TESTIMONY and they will be slain for their testimony.

Revelation 6:9-11 describes this element. They are ALREADY IN HEAVEN. They were SLAIN for their TESTIMONY, yet they MUST WAIT a little while longer for their fellow brethren (Revelation 7:7 and 7:14) to wash their robes in the Great Tribulation.

The Lord had me partake in His own suffering over His people. I saw His grief and His anger and His sorrow because His people would not focus on Him but rather hide in their caves focusing on the cares of THIS WORLD.

Praise the Lord for His mercy and faithfulness to His people. He WILL ELEVATE HIS PEOPLE TO HOLINESS.

So, by what am I to be condemned as a false prophet? In preaching holiness to the element of God's people who are spiritually blind?

What is the true selfless love of Christ? He freely offered up His own life for the least among us.

When we grow in Spirit, we also cannot help but grow in the selfless love of Christ within us, putting others above ourselves. Their needs trump our own. We are of no consequence, not even our own flesh. No sin is found in the TRUE SELFLESS LOVE of Christ.

I would presume you have spiritually grown in the true faith of Abraham as demonstrating your faith by living in spirit and not the flesh. Of course you don't go to doctors or take drugs or medicines for your afflictions or those within your own household, because you fully trust in the Lord to heal you. You hold fast to His promises to you. You have NO FEAR because you know that the entire world can collapse around you, but you just KNOW with NO DOUBTS WHATSOEVER, that you will ALWAYS BE SUSTAINED.

And I trust also that you grieve and suffer and shed tears over your beloved brethren because they do not understand what is coming upon them.

Dear friend, and I mean this with the sincereity of the Spirit within my soul, things aren't always what they seem. The enemy is truly underestimated by many of the Body because they cannot discern with moral clarity the Lord's own plan for His people. All He wants is family, sons and daughters, a worthy Bride of Christ, holy and pure, without spot or blemish.

God bless,

Ed