For those here who like to say certain parts of the new testiment are refering to national Israel instead of the church. Fine!
But however you cannot deny that the book of 2 Thessalonians is talking directly to the Thessalonian church about their future, not that of national Israel but that of the church.
Thessalonians 1&2
1Paul, Silas[a] and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thanksgiving and Prayer
3We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. 4Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

11With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. 12We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.[b]

Lets look at this. This christian church is told that JEsus will repay those whom have persecuted the church with everlasting destruction. We are also told that at this same time we will be given rest. So on this day we will be given rest and those that afflicted us will be punished. So we are given rest on this day.
What day is this you say. Is it before the trib. like some say or in the middle or after. WHEN? WEll lets look at when Paul says this will happen!

2 Thessalonians 2
The Man of Lawlessness
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[c] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

So Paul makes it clear that the day that JEsus returns to give us rest and pay back those who have troubled us will at least not be until after the AC is revealed. This happens at the AOD. Half way thru the trib. So now we know that We will not be given rest and JEsus will not gather us to Him, until at the earliest the mid point of the trib. Paul also makes it clear here that when JEsus does return to give us rest, he will overthrow the AC with the breath of his mouth and destroy him with the splendor of his coming. So it is made clear JEsus will return to gather us to himself and pay back trouble for trouble to those that persecute the church at the same time he overthrows the AC. We are also informed here the time the antichrist is here is not wrath, but a time of deception. THe AC himself is sent to be a powerful delusion so that all perishing will believe a lie. We are told that every sort of evil that decieve those perishing will be there, so that all(no matter what you're into that is disobedient to God will be decieved because this AC will appeal to them. He will appeal to all in disobedients. This will be a time to takes sides. Because of this great lie, people will be faced with a choice. The God of All, or the "God" of this world. Not alot in between. So this is a time to separate those whom call on God and those whom choose disobedience. There will be a definate line, unlike now. Some linger on this line, but this will not be the case then. This will lead to horrible persecutions of those whom choose JEsus. And when this persecution wraps up. When that last martyr has given his life, JEsus will return for his people just like paul explains here.
Stand Firm
13But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you[d] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings[e] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
16May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

So we are not told we will escape this time when the AC is in action, but right the opposite. We are told we will not be given rest until after he is revealed.
We are told we will escape the WRath of God. Which will happen when JEsus returns, gathers us to himself for rest, and pays back those whom persecute us. AFter the great tribulation of those days. JUst like JEsus taught the christian apostles in matthew 24. He is talking to christians then, just like paul explains it to christians here.

Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. ........i AM ALREADY AT REST............NOW A QUESTION.....WHO IS THAT THE BIBLE SPEAKS OF, THAT CONFIRMS A 7 YEAR AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL?....IN DANIEL 9;27. .................................BENNY

So you already have rest from persecutions and trials. Because that is what he is talking about here.You give a scripture where(notice from your own writing it says this) it says rest for our souls. Of course Jesus has given me rest in my soul. Because I am now Born Again. But my body is still waged in war. This is not a full rest yet. We are still persecuted and as it is written undergo trails. BUt we will have rest in our souls knowing Jesus has made us clean and redeemed. He was speaking to the Thessalonian church whom were suffering persecutions and undergoing trials(but had rest of their souls from JEsus already). Hence the reason for him writing to them a second time. To encourage them. He also wanted them to know that Jesus would one day return and give them rest from persecution and trial. He will also as it is written pay back affliction for affliction to those who afflict. But He goes on to mention when. AFter the man of lawlessness has been revealed. REad the book, its very clear brother.

So.....every OTHER PLACE where Paul speaks of the 'temple,' he says that we Christians (individually and coroporately) ARE the Temple....but ONLY HERE, he means a literal 'brick and mortar' structure?

I'm sorry that doesn't add up.

If you want to know where that 'man of lawlessness,' who claims the throne of God is......LOOK IN THE TEMPLE! He is our own prideful ego, WHO THE LORD WILL DESTROY WITH THE EFFULGENCE OF HIS PAROUSIA!! Even so, slay me Lord, that I might live!!!

II thess. Does give us an absolute cronological order of events concerming the almost-christ[/indent]

The falling away will be caused by, if it were possable, even the elect, accepting the almost Christ as the real Messiah. Who the Almost Christ truly is, is not REVEALED until after his 42 month reign, which occurs at the time of the abomination desolation. I believe that it is the harvest of believers in REv. 14 that occurs at the end of his 42 month reign, that triggers the "revealing" of his true identity. I believe that the aod is his last futile attemp to hold onto power, claiming he is the Messiah. The abomination of desolation Does start the day of the Lord However according to Daniel 12:11, there is a 3 1/2 year TIME SPPLIT between the stopping of the sacrifices and the abomination of desolation.

QUOTE

Daniel 12:11 and from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, AND the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be One thousand two hundred and ninety days (3 1/2 years.)

[indent]Most prophecy teachings of today for whatever reason has missed this time split occuring between the stopping of the sacrifices, which occurs in the midst of the week, and the abomination of desolation, which most occur at the end of the 7 year period. This brings into harmony many scriptures that couldn't be reconciled without understanding this time split. For instance. Daniel 9:24 states 70 weeks are determined upon THY POEPLE AND THE HOLY CITY. However, Obadiah 1:15 states, Then day of the Lord is the time of the heathen. The day of the Lord cannot be any part of the final seven year period, although most try to cram the beginning of the day of the Lord into the Last half of the seventieth week. If the day of the Lord begins at the abomination of desolaton, (which we know it does) and the abomination of desolation DOES OCCUR INTHE MIDST OF THE SEVENTIETH WEEK, Like most have accepted, then the Lord broke his promise to his people that 70 weeks are determined UPON THEM. HE would be short changing his own people the final 3 1/2 years.

[indent] Understanding the time split between the two events BRINGS INTO HARMONY ALL THREE RAPTURE VIEWS. As I see It, the 70th week of daniel is 3 1/2 years of "birthpains"Jesus talked about, with the regular sacrifice being stopped in the "midst" of the week at a climactic war in Jerusalem this war will be construed as Armageddon, Leading to the rise of the false messiah as the real. His 42 month reign follows( second half of 70th week) untill his true identity is revealed at the "time of the end", it is then and only then will the wrath of God be poured out. We- the church, will be here and go through the birthpains, and the reign of the false Messiah, but thank the Lord, we are not destined for his wrath, which follows.

Good post. I agree that WE are the temple of God and there will not be a third temple erected. The "spirit of Antichrist" will come to dwell in many "christians" who betray the Lord and take the mark of the beast during the tribulation period. JUST as Judas did..and Satan ENTERED him. This is a prophecy and the Lord is warning us to be aware of this. Judas was called the "son of perdition" in our day this will be a corporate body of people who fall away as Antichrist is revealed. His tail draws a third of the stars to earth. God told Abraham that his seed will be as the stars of the heavens....The tail of the serpent is called, Leviathon....the bible says that the false prophet is the tail...notice the first four letters in LEVIathon....LEVI----the priesthood! These will lead MANY astray with the false preaching-false prophet message of worshiping the beast.

Isa 9:15 The elder and the honorable man, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

Yes...thanks C. I hope that many here will get the revelation that the abomination that makes desolate is taking the Mark of the Beast and not some charismatic MAN who stands in the rebuilt 3rd temple and defiles it. How can a temple that God would NEVER inhabit be defiled? He doesn't dwell in a house made with hands. The spirit of AC enters the "temple" (believers) and claims Godhood. (they betray Christ to save their flesh and are desolated by the Lord.) To dethrone Christ is to claim your own godhood and if Self rules..you are marked spiritually with 666- the number of the Beast.

Perhaps, perhaps Brother Jon, and perhaps the scheme constructed by Jack Van Impe (who I truly LOVE to listen to) is entirely accurate! But for my money, I'm looking at present tense realities, in our own lives and souls. The Lord is telling us how to live HERE AND NOW as well. When our own ego and all our other 'self defense mechanisms (which hinder the Lord's work in our souls) are 'taken away--when we are LAID BARE before our Precious Lord Jesus, and truly see our LACK and our sin--THEN the Lord will destroy that wicked old nature (that still tries to 'sit on the throne') with the brightness of His coming IN US!!!!

This cannot be true because of several different things:
Jesus, in Matthew 24 refers to the abomination of desolation as a thing one can see, that stands in the holy place. Just because the church is the temple of God, is no reason to take that to this extreme conclusion, especially as regards eschatology. The adbomination of desolation is not just a concept, it is a thing that stands in the temple, which (BTW) was still standing after the new testament scriptures were completed. And he advises that when it is seen, those in Judea should flee. Why only those in Judea?? if what you say is true, we need not flee from any particular place.

The Mark of the Beast is indeed a Mark, and it is indeed imposed upon people. Now I do agree that a person who takes it is condemned, but it is actually a mark with which you will be able to access money, to buy and sell. That much is clear. So it is used to force people to worship

The problem with your interpretation is that for anyone simply reading the scriptures, it is a private interpretation. In other words, no one would ever come to that conclusion without being lead to, and this makes it a cultic type of interpretation. I am not accusing you of being in a cult, but I am characterizing your interpretation.

The bible should be read and interpretted literally, historically, and grammatically. It was written to advise, instruct, and to teach.

We know that there is a time period that is yet future that Daniel called the 70th week. It is during that week that these things are said to occur. Since that week is for Israel and Jerusalem, then we can be certain that, with all that is happening today, there will be another temple on the temple mount, and soon. Does the fact that there are already plans in the works to do so change anyones thoughts on this issue??

I agree, that perhaps God will not HONOR the building of this temple nor the sacrifices that are done in it.

But this would not be an unusual circumstance.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Act 7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

So it is no real argument against a rebuilt temple to say that God once honored the system and now he doesn't.

God always looked on the heart, and men are, and always have been, justified by faith.

I would have to lean with super here. Literal. There is no reason to think when the bible says the mark will be on the hand or forhead that he is actually talking about a spiritual marking. This is a physical mark. And it says when we see STANDING in the holy place. One man standing in the holy place. And the holy of Holies God says he will always habitate. This is why even though there is no temple the JEw would never walk over where the holy of holies still is. This should be taken as it is written. We are talking about a man here. Yes he will claim to be God, but the fact is he is NOT. He is not omnipresent just like Satan isn't. He cannot be spiritually inside all people. Only God can. Satan Cannot be in America and also at the same time in Japan. He is a single created creature. He has limits and what you suggest breaks those limits. Only God whom IS omnipresent has the ability to be everywhere and in everyone. Satan does not have this power. This physical mark is made clear it is for identification purposes. Only those whom have it are legal to buy sell or trade. THose withour are claim no alligance to a this man claiming to be God therefore will be enemies of those that do.

I can easily see it has having a dual application, mainly a spiritual mark, because you are taking the mark in your forehead=recieving false doctrine, your right hand=fellowship with those that are against Gods people. Here's the rub, you will not be able to buy or sell unless you have the mark, with our world speedily going towards a one world order, with a monetary system thats based off computers, I can see those opposed to the beast, which has it's power from the kings of the earth using that to persecute God's people. In Rev. 18:12 It list the merchanise of the merchants of the earth, down at the very last line of 13 it says "and the souls of men." I don't think it's talking about slaverly, but spiritual bondage, these merchants are preachers, making merchanise of people. And that's why I think it's mainly talking about being apart of a system, that licenses ministers to preach their gospel. To which I will have no part. Say not a confederation, to them that say a confederation! It's hard to imagine anyone taking a literal mark in their forehead that is visible, after all the Bible says against it, don't you think just about every Christian would be against that, but if it was a RFID Chip under the skin, I could see that as being part of it, but not all.

What truly is the abomination of desolation? When does it occur in the order of events according to Daniel?

Seeing Jesus Himself points us to daniel, lets see what Daniel states the abomination of desolation is, and exactly when it occurs.

QUOTE

Daniel 11:45 And he SHALL PLANT THE TABERNACLES OF HIS PALACE BETWEEN THE SEAS IN THE GLORIOUS MOUNTAIN, YET HE SHALL COME TO HIS END, AND NONE SHALL HELP HIM. And at THAT TIME (WHAT TIME? When he "plants the tabernacles of his palace in the glorious mountian) Shall michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: AND THERE SHALL BE A TIME OF TROUBLE SUCH THERE NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME, AND AT THAT TIME, THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED, EVERYONE THAT SHALL BE FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.

The abomination of desolation is when the false Messiah "plants his tabernacles of his palace on the holy mountian". What is a "tabernacle" of his palace? It is a tent, or temporary dwelling place. This is the abomination of desolation. However, this event is, and will be the false Messiah's Last act. While the regular sacrifices are "taken away" Back in Daniel 11:31 the abomination of desolation occurs at the end the 42 month reign, in Daniel 11:45, witht the description of the reign of the false messiah between the two. THERE IS A 3 1/2 YEAR TIME SPLIT BETWEEN THE TWO EVENTS AS dANIEL 12:11 sTATES.

Ellis Skolfield (www.ellisskolfield.com) would say that the "Dome of the Rock" is standing on a "wing" of the temple. In fact, it has stood there, as of 1948, if I recall, for 1260 years. There's something physical standing there that doesn't belong. What's more, is that Muhammad and the Muslims came barreling through at that time--a good time for Jews to flee, I'd say.

There are a lot of things I'm sure a great many of the modern church is missing. Until we begin sitting down and humbly comparing notes, instead of saying, "THIS is the way it has to be," or "THAT is the way it has to be," we're probably going to keep on missing it.

Without love, it's all just a lot of noise.

In Christ,

Mike

Apparently Cephas is arabic for Rock.

I agree that the Mark of the Beast is Physical..... I take the scriptures literally as you do, but my point is that people have been marked in the spirit throughout history...and you never hear this truth taught...that you are marked with an unregenerate mind of the flesh (forehead) and do the deeds of the flesh (hand)...or you have had your mind renewed by the Word of God and have forsaken the deeds of the flesh for the deeds of the Spirit. Yes, there will be a monetary system that one can see...i think we all agree with this...so my interpretation is not cult-like but more full in my opinion. it includes the spiritual mark where the common traditional teachings usually do not. Everyone is ALREADY marked in the spirit and those who continue in their rebellion against the Lordship of Jesus will take the physical mark and be desolated for all eternity.

The abomination (this is a deed or act that is considered to be vile, wicked and severely judged by God)
of desolation ( an judgment from God that removes His presence and all hope of redemption)

Jesus left the Jewish temple "desolate" as a judgment before He gave His physical life as an atoning sacrifice for us.

Judgment--
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not!
(Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Fulfillment--
Mar 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top to the bottom.

From this moment on into eternity---God has left the building, folks...never to return to a building made with hands. THIS is what "desolation" means and it will happen to ALL who take the physical mark of the beast.

Rev 14:11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

Here is how I see this PATTERN in scripture. In the betrayal of Christ by Judas.

Look carefully at this clear description of the "abomination that makes desolate"

Luk 22:3 And Satan entered into Judas (This is the spirit of Antichrist entering the temple and claiming to be god) who was called Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.
Luk 22:5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. (Judas took the mark for money,i.e. buying and selling..he sold the Lord out for the things of the world= 666)
Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver into the sanctuary, and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.

He was desolated by this act of treason...can you see it?

The traditional teaching that I've heard for over 25 years is very much stuck in the letter of the Word (which killeth) It goes like this----

A very charismatic world leader will arise and deceive everyone (except the elect) He will gain world dominion and march into the rebuilt third temple and will sit physically in the Holy of Holies and claim to be God. This is the letter which killeth but the Spirit gives life.

Here is what I believe the clear pattern of scripture teaches us---

During the tribulation, Christians will be tried in the wilderness and many will not be able to endure the trial, (JUST AS the Israelites in the desert) and they will betray the Lord by running back to Egypt ( the world) and take the Mark of the Beast (Government system that is opposed to God). This act (abomination) will cause them to be desolated and Satan (Antichrist) will enter them ( JUST AS he did to Judas who did the EXACT same thing). This is the true spiritual fulfillment of that which Daniel was speaking. The tail of the dragon pulls down a third of the stars....this is the great falling away that will reveal the son of perdition. Watch.....

Rev 12:4 And his tail draweth the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: ( these stars are not angels but those who were positionally with Christ in the heavenlies as Ephesians states and they lose their place. (are desolated by taking the mark of the beast.)

2Th 2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

The "son of perdition" is NOT the Antichrist as traditionally taught because Judas was given this designation by Jesus himself and it can only apply to those who follow his example or deed of betrayal.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

So.....

Ask the Lord to confirm this to you...if you are truly accepting of just what is written and are truly seeking the truth even if it comes against accepted traditional teaching...I know the Lord will give this powerful revelation to you.

I had to chew on this for a few weeks because the idea of a Man as Antichrist sitting on the mercy seat and claiming to be God was deeply entrenched in my thinking....

Blessings-

Bro Jon

2 Thessalonians 2

First
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,

Second
we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord [this is different than the "gathering" and it is the Lord's hour of trial, not His "harpazo" action] will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

BTW, thanks for the excellent link Bonomike.

I agree Bro Jon.

There is another level as well, where the desolation takes place.

We as Christians are called to lay down our lives, present our bodies as a living sacrifice to God.

Those who stop this sacrifice, by taking the mark (joining the fleshly system) looses their lives and become desolate.Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. We are called to take up our cross and follow Jesus.Rev 12:11 ......and they loved not their life even unto death. Rev 14:4 ..............These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service.

THAT is the sacrifice that is in the Temple. That is also the sacrifice that will be taken away by some. They will stop following Jesus unto death , they will gain their life, (not die to self) and they will loose their eternal life. They will take the mark and become desolate (as you have mentioned Bro Jon )

I also agree with what you are pointing out about the letter. It is so sad to see people not even knowing the deeper things of God and only looking at the letter. There is so much more that God is saying through all of this than: There is a man with steel blue eyes, that has a side-kick that will do miracles and lead the world and he will be possessed by satan.

It is tragic, but true. The church has lost something Bro ! They, like Israel of old, has lost the ability to see.

C

Jon said:



Why can't it be both???

And why can't Christ enter the third temple just the way he did the second?

The Jews can certainly build a temple if God intervenes on there behalf. Doesn't mean it's anything but a Jewish temple but why wouldn't the Lord use it?

Yes.....it all ties together, doesn't it? We must endure till the end to be saved. It's a test of endurance, a trial in the wilderness...many will fall by saving their fleshly lives in the world but losing their spiritual lives in Christ.

Notice that Joseph prepared for the 7 years of famine by storing up the GRAIN.....this is the "bread of life" the word of God..Jesus Christ...that's the only true preparation that we are to be making NOW. Study the word...die to self...turn from sin....die to selfish ambition.....Place Christ on the throne of your life. Those who are determined to only look at the letter will not have eyes to see the depth of Satan's deception and will find themselves on the wrong side of the end times scenario.


The Lord gave me this verse 3 years ago.....

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

He had found me faithful to receive meat in due season. You can't talk anyone into accepting the Spirit of the Word...it is ONLY for Christ to give those whom He chooses. I'm not boasting at all....I've suffered much and still have much to suffer in death to my carnal man, my ego.....but He makes this promise to those who follow Him in this crucified life.

Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

To just read the surface text (letter) is NOT hidden manna, is it? Anyone can do this without a spiritual revelation....just read it and believe it. BUT...there is MUCH MORE to the real meaning of the scriptures and only Jesus can unlock this for the believer. He is no respecter of persons and if you pursue Him diligently, He will open your eyes to see the Spirit that gives life.

Your symbolic interpretation here contradicts your claim to a literal interpretation.

Not that I disagree about the fact that taking the mark places you in a spiritually irretrievable state, BUT, the mark will be the REPRESENTATION of that state, not the cause.



As I said, I did not mean to be offensive in my statement.



Precisely. The mark will be an outward symbol of an inward condition. Much like baptism.



This is true, but it is after that, that he advises his disciples about the AOD. If your characterization is true, would he not (or at least Matthew) have stated that "this is so the scriptures might be fulfilled"?

I mean, it would have been quite confusing to the disciples (who were pretty confused most of the time anyway) for him to say "when you see this" if indeed they had already seen it.

Should they then have not arose and fled right from Mt Olivette??



I agree with this.



Ok, but do you believe this prophecy has been fulfilled yet??

Joh 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.



Yes, but again, this is not a literal interpretation as you claim to have.

In fact, this might be construed as a private interpretation. No one would come to that conclusion upon reading the scriptures.

Please remember, these things were given for us to know:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This is not some secret code. (no offence)



Believe me, without the spirit, even the traditional teaching is useless to them that perrish.



I appreciate the work and study that goes into these understandings of scripture (and the posts too BTW).

But there is an order to the events of the 70th week. And they are clear when the scriptures are taken literally.

Let me just pose this to you as a starting point:

Obviously we can both agree that there is a coming day of the Lord, which has yet to occur.

In fact, there is a sign that is always associated with the day of the Lord in virtually every mention of it in scripture. That sign is the same one Jesus mentions in the Olivette discourse (which is the lynchpin of all unfulfilled prophecy).

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Even here, the day of the Lord is obviously mentioned:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

If you investigate my claim you will see that this is the case.

Especially the sixth seal:

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

But also here:
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Now note:
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

So according to Jesus these cosmic signs happen AFTER the tribulation (which according to Jesus is kicked off with the AOD), and according to Joel, the cosmic signs happen BEFORE the day of the Lord. These cosmic signs are THE KEY to the order of events in the coming 70th week. Now, surely, the stars have not (according to a literal interpretation) fallen from heaven as yet?? No, of course not. Because if they had the day of the Lord would have already occurred, and we know that cannot be. The cosmic signs are sandwiched between the end of the tribulation, and the beginning of the day of the Lord.

And as Jesus makes clear:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So we know that all the events that transpire after the AOD are events that have never happened, and will never happen again.

Anyway, you get the point.

Grace and peace.

Hint:

Revelation 6:12-14 is a beginning view.
Earthquake
Stars are fallen angelics, not cosmic. These fall to the earth.
Humans hide from the Lord's wrath during the period
No sign of the Son of Man.
No gatherings
The great day of the Lord's judgment (the tribulation) begins.

Matthew 24:29-31 is an ending view
No earthquake
Stars are cosmic. They do not fall to the earth. A star would obliterate the earth.
Humans see the Son of Man coming
Sign of the Son of Man
Gathering of the "elect' of the believing remnant of national Israel.
The Lord's hour of trial (the tribulation period ....."those days") ends.

7 years are confirmed for this time frame in Daniel's visions. These two views are 7 years apart. Careful study of the details of each will reveal different conditions and events.

Jon said:



Jon...This may well be symbolically true but it doesn't mean we interpret all of the word this way and it also doesn't mean that God may not call some to store food. Why can't it be both?

I have a full pantry and a backpack of gear in the hall closet. It's reality for the day and times we live. I don't do it because of Joseph. l do it because ants prepare for the winter and the wise man sees the danger and hides himself. Some of these things are just common sense. Of course our only true protection is the Lord but he gave us a brain to work and cooperate with him.

Most of Christendom is not... nor ever will be... ready to give up Advil or ready to face the enemy at their door with a pointed gun. God in his mercy gives us Doctors. Gives us common sense to store with in the bounds of practical reality the things we need to protect our families. We use to have a rifle. I don't know where it is and l don't know how to use it. If l had a hand gun l might. But when l touch a gun l feel cold death in my hands. That doesn't mean my neighbor might not be well armed and ready to defend the street on which l live. to which l would give a hearty amen for.

Just as Jesus was God in Human form, The false messiah will be in human form. One the son of Man, the Son of God, the other the son of perdition. This is once again Satan's Futile attempt of duplication. The False messiah will be of Human form, but much more with great Miracle working Power that will decieve many into believing that HE IS THE RETURNED messiah. Think about it! If he is going to decieve many into worshipping him "As God" he would have to come in the form of more than just a human.

You are absolutely correct as to the event that sepereates the time of Jacob's trouble and the day of the Lord. It will be the abomination of desolation. The big question is, when does this event truly occur? Most have accepted as "gospel truth" that the abomination of desolation occurs when the regular sacrifices are stopped. However there is scripture that refutes this line of thought.

QUOTE

Daniel 12:11 "and from the time that the daily sacrifices are taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, THERE SHALL BE A THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED NINETY DAYS.

Many have tried to explain away this scripture as revealing how much time is left after the stopping of the regular sacrifices, however, this would counterdict what Jesus stated, that if we knew this, then we would also know precisely when the Lord would return. But Jesus stated we WOULD NOT KNOW THE DAY. SO THAT "THEORY DOESN'T FLY".

If the Lord wanted us to know how long the time period would be after the stopping of the sacrifices, he would of only had to mention the one event, and not both. The only logical conclusion anyone can draw, is THERE IS A 3 1/2 YEAR TIME SPLIT between the stopping of the sacrifices ( which occurs in the "midst" of the 70th week), and the abomination of desolation which has to occur, 3 1/2 years later AT THE END OF THE 70TH WEEK, which is also the end of the false Messiah's 3 1/2 year reign, but still prior to the Day of the Lord. This is what Jesus was talking about when he stated "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", or, after the completion of the seventieth week, the time of Jacobs trouble, there shall be a time of trouble such as was not.

Understanding the time split of these events KEEPS ALL PROPHETIC SCRIPTURE IN PERFECT HARMONY For instance.

QUOTE

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined UPON THY PEOPLE.

If the abomination of desolation occured in the "midst of the week" as most have accepted as true, then the Lord broke his word because:

THE LORD IS VERY SPECIFIC, about who he is dealing with, and the time frames he deals in. No part of the day of the Lord can be part of the seventieth week, but it IMMMEDIATELY FOLLOWS IT. [indent] THERE IS A SECOD MISCONCEPTION THAT NEEDS TO BE DEALT WITH. Because most have accepted the stopping of the regular sacrifices and the abomination of desolation as being just one event, the conclusion has been drawn that it is the antichist that does both, however what does the Word of God state?

QUOTE

Daniel 11: AND ARMS SHALL STAND ON HIS PART (OR BEHALF) and they shall pollute the sactuary of strength, and shall TAKE AWAY THE DAILY SACRIFICE, AND THEY SHALL PLACE (STRANGE WORD, ACTUAL MEANING IS "CAUSE") THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.

WE FIRST WITNESS "ARMS" OR MILITARY FORCE STANDING ON SOMEONES BEHALF STOPPING THE SACRIFICES. This is not the antichist personally doing this, while the abomination of desolation IS an event that he personally performs. Secondly, the stopping of the sacrifices "places" or CAUSES the abomination of desolation. These are TWO SEPERATE EVENTS. So, the big question is, who actually "stops" the regular sacrifices in the "midst" of the week, and more importantly, why? We witness that it is "arms" standing on the behalf of somone when this is done. Question- Motivation, Why does the Lord do the following?

QUOTE

QUOTE

Ezekiel 38:4 AND I WILL TURN THEE BACK, AND PUT HOOKS IN THY JAWS, AND I WILL BRING THEE FORTH....

Why does the Lord bring this invading army down on the Mountians of Israel? What terrible "THING" HAVE THEY DONE, to justify the Lord to doing this? Amos 5:20 explains the reason Why_

QUOTE

Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it? I HATE, I DESPISE YOUR FEAST DAYS, AND I WILL NOT SMELL IN

YOUR SOLEMN ASSEMBLIES. THOUGH YOU OFFER ME BURNT OFFERINGS AND YOUR MEAT OFFERINGS, I WILL NOT ACCEPT THEM. [indent] The restaring of the sacrifices will be an abomination to the Lord, this will be that ultimate "slap in the face" and rejection of what Jesus did on the cross. What we are witnessing is the climax of Ezekiel 38 when the regular sacrifices are stopped in the midst of the week. This war, is the climax of the "birthpains" Jesus spoke of. It is after this war, WHICH WILL BE ACCEPTED AS ARMAGEDDON, do we witness the 42 month reign of the false Messiah. The "falling away " occurs when the False Messiah is projected to power, comes on the scene, and will be viewed and accepted as the great deliverer of Israel. Although it is the Lord who destoys this army after they perform his will, those Left will give the credit to the false Messiah, thinking he is the real.

The 70th week of daniel IS NOT 3 1/2 years of peace, followed by 3 1/2 years of war, but the exact opposite. It will be 3 1/2 years of birthpains, leading to the Climax of ezekiel 38, followed by the sacrifices being stopped, the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, the abomination of desolation. then after the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, at the END OF HIS REIGN, THE DAY OF THE LORD FOLLOWS.

I CHALLENGE ANYONE to disprove this chronology, without assuming what is true, based upon false conclusions.

You sure?

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



You sure?

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

There is indeed a gathering.



According to Jesus it begins at the AOD, and the cosmic signs end it.

Agreed. Only I don't think he will claim to be the second coming. I think he will claim to be the first coming.



Yeah, I am still trying to find the Hebrew rule that says this is structured such that it requires that these two events are separate. IMO, as I look at it, it appears to me that the traditional interpretation is probably correct.



Well, the entire premise upon which you are building your argument, is the same upon which pre-tribbers support their immenence of the rapture argument. The fact is, Jesus gave us signs so that we WOULD INDEED know in what SEASON Jesus would return. However, and believe me this is true, we do not know the day or the hour.



Yeah, like I say, I am still not certain. It is certainly a possibility. But what we need is to know the hebrew rule the way we know, for instance, that in 2 Thess 2:1, the coming of the Lord, and the gathering, are being referred to a ONE event and not two. I think that the problem is, we dont have that kind of detailed rules of translation (as far as I can tell) as we do with the greek. So it is really hard to say.



Yeah, I disagree that the tribulation is the entirety of the 70th week anyway. Jacods trouble is the entire 70th week, but not the tribulation.



Yeah, this I agree with.



Hmmm, I will have to study this further.



Yeah, tell ya what; give me a link to someone who breaks all this out, and give a chance to study it. I have been seeing allot of people around the net talk about it, but it is way too much for anyone to "get" in a single post.

I would like to check it all out before I comment.

Superfundy- I wish I had a Link I could point you towards. Everything I shared with you I Got from the Holy Spirit. I do know that this is a WHOLE BUNCH TO SPIRITUALLY DIGEST in just one post. I also want to put this on your plate. Compare the following two scriptures, see if they are not one and the same event: they are Ezekiel 38:20, and Revelation 6:12-17 the sixth seal. Here is a couple of Hints. In the sixth seal, WHO IS saying it is the day of the Lord?, What are they hiding from, and what are THEY proclaiming? In Ezekiel 38, the entire world "shakes at my presence". Look up the word "presence" in your strongs. The sixth seal of revelation, is the climax of the Ezekiel 38 war. Now, factor one more thing in: Those that "love not the truth," shall be sent a "strong delusion". This is what we are witnessing in the sixth seal. It is an event the world has accepted as the beginning of the Day of the Lord, but isn't. This all occurs Just prior to the 42 month reign of the false Messiah, and climaxes in the midst of the week. The world will see the Lord "sitting on the throne" (Rev 6th seal) they shall shake at his presence (Ezekiel 38), and hide themselves in the rocks from the face of God. This is the strong delusion. it is after this event, do we witness the first four trumpets sounded, which are eerily close to the same kind of destruction as the vials of the wrath of God. However, the trumpets are partial and occur prior to the reign of the false Messiah, while the vials of the wrath of God are complete, and occur prior to the return of the REAL MESSIAH. think DUPLICATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

End Time Calling began this thread with Pauls statement in 2 Thes 1
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you [church], because you believed our testimony to you. He noted that the wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction on the day that Jesus comes to bring relief to the church. Unfortunately he used the word "rest" instead of "relief" and everyone jumped on him as though he did not understand the Gospel. But no one answered the question.

How can 144000 Jewish evangelists evangelize anyone if the the unsaved, those who do not know God, are destroyed when Jesus comes for the church?

3am

The book of revelation is a symbolic book.
I doubt that you will see red dragons floating in the clouds and beasts with 7 heads roaming the earth.

Revelation begins with the words;
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He signified it by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Is God giving us a key that since he signified or symbolized "what would soon take place," we need to understand it symbolically?

The Dragon symbolizes Satan (Rev 12:9).
The sea or waters symbolize multitudes of people (Rev 17:15).
The beast like the lion, bear and leopard draw from Daniel 7 where those beasts symbolize nations.
A beast rising up out of the water would symbolize a nation rising to power in the midst of a multitude of people.
A beast (nation) who forces it's particular brand of worship on the world, is not only a political power, but a religious power. A religious power which can force its worship or those who resist. That sounds like a church-state alliance.
If the beast is symbolic, what about the mark?
If Revelation symbolizes what is to come and the beast is symbolic, it makes sense to understand the mark as symbolic.
God has a mark.
Deut. 6:6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.... 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

Exodus 13:9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips.

Is it possible that since observance of God's Laws are like a sign on the forehead and hand, that obedience to the beast would be like a sign or mark on forehead and hand.? After all, Paul said, "16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? " Romans 6:16

Jesus pointed out that worship by those who put traditions above Scripture is fruitless worship when he said, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? ....Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men. Mat 15:3-9

Is it possible that those who obey the beast, a religious-political power, would actually be worshiping the beast and taking his mark? And those who worship God are the ones who obey God?
Food for thought.
3am

Yes this was the point of the topic. Paul indicates that when the church recieves "relief"(sorry for the word usage) he punishes wicked with everlasting destruction. How can there then be a whole period of the wicked ruling the earth. How can they even be alive. I do not see it possible according to what Paul says.
Thanks 3am for the awarness.

Actually Scripture teaches us that "stars" is God's shorthand word for the believers, that are in faith like Abraham. Theses believers are "seated in the heavenlies" and when theses believers change their view, they will "fall out of heaven" where they are seated in Christ.
The false prophet is the tail of the dragon who by his teaching makes the stars fall out of heaven.Isa 9:15 The elder and the honorable man, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

OK, I am not trying to hijack the thread , I just wanted to clear that up.................forget I was here and carry on ..............

C

Even if this passage in 2Thes is a "beginning view," that will not solve the dispensational problem.
The text says:
2 Thes 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you [the church].

When Jesus comes to give "relief" to the church, He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel with everlasting destruction.
So even if the everlasting destruction is in the beginning stage, it is, after all, beginning and will continue until it is done. Everlasting destruction is just that, everlasting.
There is no salvation possible after the point that Jesus comes for the church and this punishment begins.
They are shut out from the presence of the Lord on the day Jesus comes for the church.
It is over for those who do not obey the Gospel at that time, all that remains is the punishment.
No second chance here.
So how can there be 144000 Jewish evangelists preaching the Gospel and saving people after the day Jesus comes for the church?
We need to do all that we can to get people (Jew and Gentile) ready for Jesus to come now, instead of soothing them with the false hope that there will be a second chance after the rapture.
3am

That is a very interesting observation!


I agree that they, not only will, but ARE leading many astray now. The connection you made in LEVIathon and Levi is eye-opening and I thank you for pointing it out. It is one of those events where you say to yourself....I can't believe I didn't notice that myself.


May I ask if that same connection carries when written in Hebrew?



........Whirlwind

No need to apologize. Just because some seem to think they own the forum, does not make it so.
The more people their are keeping the dispensationalists in line the better.
While I certainly agree, "we [believers] are seated in heavenly realms with Christ, I do think that allowing the stars to include angels is a violation of the text.
I am actually agreeing with Stephen on this point although, I do not accept his timing of course.
There is another possibility:

Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth....
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

This text describes a time when Satan was in heaven, fighting against the good angels but he lost that battle and he and those who followed him were cast down to the earth to pursue God's people, the woman and her seed. That would also explain the 1/3 of the stars falling. They were good angels but now become evil angels or demon spirits at work against God's people (v13).
This is even more interesting when you compare it to the battle for God's throne in Isaiah 14:12f where Babylon provides a window into Satan's heart. Satan wants to sit on the throne. He wants to rule.

Anyway, keep up the good work.
I dont think this changes much of what you said, perhaps expands it a little because the angels were God's creatures before they rebelled. I think there are other places that describe Satan's attack on believers, [church] in heavenly places.
Since we are currently on the heavenly Mt. Zion and in the heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22f).
This text is a real thorn in the flesh for dispensationalism. The church is already in the "New Heavenly Jerusalem." That makes us citizens in "Israel."
Mt. Zion is the temple Mt.
We, the church, are therefore in God's temple.
When we approach our high Priest, in the heavenly Temple (Heb 8:1ff) we are considered by God to be in that temple. Therefore, when Satan attacks the temple, he is attacking God's believers.
Put that in the context of Daniel's little horn attacking the sanctuary of God in Daniel 7 and 8.
Now that makes the prophecy truly Christ Centered.
God Bless
3am

BTW: Here is one more star to add to your list.
Jesus is the Bright Morning Star (Rev 22:16)!

I really enjoy reading your posts and agree with much of what you teach but not with the above.


Perdition - #684 apoleia, from a presumed der. of 622; ruin or loss (phys. spiritual or eternal): - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, x perish, pernicious ways, waste

#622 - apollumi; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (refl. to perish, or lose), lit. or fig: destory, die, lose mar, perish

#623 - Apolluon; act. part of 622; a destroyer (i.e. Satan): - Apollyon


That, to me, shows that the "son of perdition" is Satan - not Judas. Satan is the one that has been condemned to death as he is Apollyon.


Rev.9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon


Isn't he (Satan) the "man of sin, son of perdition?"



...........Whirlwind

Thanks....

My point is that Christ called JUDAS, The Son of Perdition, right? I mean, that's undeniable.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; (Judas) that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas(making him the Son of Perdition) surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.


Notice that Satan ENTERED JUDAS....so we have a combination of a Satan filled Betrayer of Christ whom Jesus Himself called the Son of Perdition. Let's learn from Jesus.....those who fall away and turn back to Egypt (Mark takers) betray Christ just like their spiritual father JUDAS...They will also be filled with the same spirit of Antichrist....this Great Falling Away...reveals the MAN OF SIN, the corporate Judas body that is filled with the spirit from the abyss. This is the fulfillment of the Son of Perdition. These ALL go to destruction.

So...YES...the Antichrist IS the Son of perdition AS he fills the" temple "of those who betray Christ as Judas is the pattern we are to follow prophetically. We really agree...I'm just adding the fact that this is a GROUP of people...filled with the same wicked spirit...that makes up the S.O.P.

Here's "Hidden Manna" proof:

Notice that "SOP" is an anagram for Son Of Perdition. Watch......

John 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a SOP, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
John 13:27 And after the SOP Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Now that's an amazing confirmation that a Satan filled Judas was the Son of Perdition just as Jesus called him.

That is where our disagreement is. I don't believe John 17:12 is a reference to Judas.


There is no doubt, as you have shown, that Satan "entered Judas" but the actual "son of perdition" was Satan himself. He is the one that is "lost" as he is the only one (named) that has been condemned.....there are also 7,000 fallen angels but they are not named.


One of the reasons I believe this is that Judas repented:


Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders.





That is a very interesting take on those verses. I really enjoy the depth you take the Word to. I will agree with you that Judas was "filled," as a sop, with the son of perdition.....I just don't believe he is the actual son of perdition that has been condemned.


I am really looking forward to more of your posts.


........whirlwind

Amen... as brothers, we will not always agree on these difficult verses, but we are walking in harmony. i don't believe Judas' repentance led to forgiveness because he committed suicide and Jesus, at least to me, clearly named him as the only one that was lost out of the 12. Satan entered him and he was desolated....

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.



Just like Esau, Judas did the SAME THING! He may have sought repentance, but it's evident by Christ's prayer that God rejected him in the end and he hung himself. I think you would have a difficult time making the point that Judas is in heaven.


One day soon, we will be in unity on most of these end-times issues. The main thing is that we share the love of Christ and discuss as we are...in a spirit of kindness and a desire to edify one another.

Blessings to you!

Could sacrificing Israel to the Nations as of now with this ROADMAP Peace treaty be the abomination that maketh desolate?
Why can't it be one and the same?

HE(THE SPIRIT OF THE DRAGON) will hide his FALSE MESSIAH as the son of perdition until the people are satisfied with a false since of security...for what goes behind the scenes will be HIS hidden agenda.
but his time will be shortened, for it it where not none would survive.

Don't you see....all the violence that has happened around Israel and many nations right now and the fear of a Nuclear WWW3 ...has brought much fear, and will cause many to take the Mark and Sacrifice Israel, possibly even the city of Jerusalem to give it up for a false peace.

But JESUS WILL BE A WALL OF FIRE AROUND HER.

I have one word of knowledge given to me...SCAPEGOAT....
and ISRAEL OF GOD

ONE HOUR....the BEAST in Revelation, they will have ONE MIND, and ONE SPIRIT, to come against Israel...just like Jesus was betrayed by Judas...all for the sake of a False Peace.

What is the PRICE?, OIL, the Stock market, food

And then the Anti-Christ will step in the New Temple the one made without THE STONE THE WORLD REJECTED,(JESUS) and claim victory of a False Peace? when he comes forth with all his lying signs and wonders...

He comes as an angel of LIGHT....and gives people a false peace within,
THE IDOL SHEPERD.

Remember when Paul was struck off his horse by the LIGHT that comes down from Heaven, THE LORD OF HOSTS. AS LIGHTING STRIKES FROM THE EAST TO THE WEST...he will knock many off their feet for his purpose and his glory to Serve him, even in the face of the darkness

...THEIR FALSE LIGHT, will be absorbed into outer darkness for all eternity...and the TRUE LIGHT through the power of the WORD and their Testimony shall Christ Jesus reveal the Sons of God...his Saints and angles surround us even now...as we walk in the TRUE LIGHT no weapon formed against us shall prosper....even though we may be persecuted or killed for HIS NAMES SAKE..for they will accept ANOTHER THAT COMES IN HIS OWN NAME.

And our garments dipped in the Blood of our dear Savior Jesus, whom was, and IS and IS to COME.
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

But JESUS WILL GIVE US A NEW NAME.

But the LIGHT of the DEVIL makes evil seem like good, and good evil....just like it did Paul when he was persecuting the Christians.

Then will they be persecuted like never before...those whom come against God's WORD, those who cause a stumblingblock. when God's judgment is seen ..for anyone that rocks the boat gets thrown overboard those whom walk with Christ...but he is ALL POWERFUL and walks with us...a false peace indeed, those whom seek peace for their own meat, and leave the flock.

Well, now your being disengenuous. Of course, when symbolism is called for, symbolism is applied.

We know Satan is represented as a serpent, etc.



He signified by doing something literal. By LITERALLY sending his messenger to the John.



All acceptable and obvious.



Yeah, here is where you will lose me.



Why?



Of course.