Why are so many SURE that the Antichrist is a MAN when they readily admit the Woman isn't a single woman? Why do they insist that the 2 witnesses are literal when they readily admit that the Harlot isn't a singular woman but a GROUP of people?

We must be consistent. We can't just pick and choose which types are literal/letter and which are symbolic/Spirit. If the Woman on the moon is a type of the "Church" or as some say "Natural Israel" then why is it so difficult for them to be consistent and state that the other types used are also corporate?

Once you see the corporate nature of these characters, you will have a much clearer understanding of what's to come and who the cast of characters really are.


I will share with you a vital key to identifying end time prophetic characters when spiritual types are used, like the man-child, woman, beast, antichrist, son of perdition, two witnesses, harlot, etc. In the Scriptures, God is in the habit of identifying corporate bodies of people by the name of their spiritual or literal father. For instance, Christ’s corporate body today is also called Christ (1Cor.12:12,27). God named Jacob, “Israel”, and yet He continues to call both His literal and spiritual corporate bodies Israel also (Gen.32:28; Rom.11:19-26). Esau was named “Edom” and yet God continued to call his seed or corporate body Edom through the rest of the Bible (Gen.25:30; Mal.1:4). Edom is also the modern corporate body of those who sell their birthright as did Esau. Ammon and Moab were the children of Lot but their children, which were large corporate bodies, continued to be called by their names (Gen.19:37,38; Zeph.2:8). In Ezekiel 38:1-6 God names the end time northern army which attacks Israel by the names of Noah’s grandsons (Gen.10:1-6). These were the majority of Japheth’s and Ham’s children. Shem was the only son left out because he was the forefather of the people already in the battle theater, both the Muslims and Israel. The seed of these grandsons identifies in our day a vast portion of the world, a corporate body that will attack Israel from the north. Individuals are used as signs to represent corporate bodies of people who follow them later. (Isa.7:14) Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Jesus’ birth to Mary, or Israel, was a sign (Hebrew: owth, i.e. a sign of something to come) to be fulfilled in the end. An omen is a sign of something to come. Immanuel means “God is with us” and He will be with us in the end time. A corporate body, the First-fruits man-child in whom Jesus truly lives will be born to the woman, the true Church, before the beginning of the tribulation (Rev.12:5,6). Isaiah continued to speak of signs. (8:16) Bind thou up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. (18) Behold, I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel…. “I and the children” here are not just Isaiah and his children. The previous verses (7:14; 8:8,10,16,17) identified “I” here as “Immanuel” (Jesus) who identified His “disciples” as His “children” (Jn.13:33; 21:5). Jesus and His “disciples” were “for signs and for wonders”. (Zech.13:7) Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn my hand upon the little ones. The shepherd and His “little ones” were for signs of corporate bodies that were to follow in their steps in the end time.The Old Testament is in the habit of identifying corporate bodies of people by the name of their physical fathers. There seems to be a Law of First Mention in the Bible. When a word, principle, or number is first mentioned, it identifies how it will be used in the rest of the Bible. When first mentioned, a name identifies an individual. When later mentioned, the same name identifies the corporate bodies of their physical seed.

Jesus and the apostles taught that it is the spiritual corporate bodies that are significant in the New Testament. For instance, Jesus said the Jews were not sons of Abraham because they did not walk in his steps. (Jn.8:39) They answered and said unto him, Our father is Abraham. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. We all prove who our spiritual father is by walking in his steps. We are the spiritual seed of Abraham (Rom.4:16,17), who walk in the steps of his faith. Jesus said the Jews were sons of the devil because they walked in his steps, (44) Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. Those who are the corporate body of Christ walk in His steps. (1Jn.2:5)…Hereby we know that we are in him: (6) he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. Judas, the son of perdition, is a spiritual father to a vast body of people today that will walk as he walked in the falling away and betrayal of the body of Christ. Empires, kingdoms, or nations also have spiritual seeds. For instance the Roman Empire is the spiritual father of the revived Roman Empire of the beast of our day because they will walk in the same steps in ruling the world and persecuting the saints.The seven churches in Revelation, which were each of a different nature with different faults and different strengths, are types of seven different groups of Christians in our day. (Isa.4:1) And seven women (the Church) shall take hold of one man (Christ) in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread (Word), and wear our own apparel (righteousness): only let us be called by thy name; take thou away our reproach. This is just like the Church in our day. We want to be called Christian while we make up our own doctrine in self-righteousness. In the next chapter we will study a company of “the firstfruits unto God” that will be birthed from this apostasy for they are “not defiled with women” (Rev.14:4).Another key is that the first time a character is mentioned, the circumstances are literal but from then on, their corporate body’s circumstances may be seen spiritually. For instance: Jesus went to the cross to be glorified but He said that we would have to take up our cross and follow Him to death, meaning death to self, that He may be glorified in our mortal bodies (2Cor.3:18; 4:10,11).I received a Word of Knowledge and Wisdom many years ago that is according to the New Testament teaching of spiritual fathers bringing forth corporate bodies of spiritual seed. “Everything that happened in the Gospels and the book of Acts will be repeated in the end except the cast of characters will be multiplied many times over.” By geometric progression, these New Testament characters in their time, represent worldwide corporate bodies of people in the end time. Bodies of people in the Gospel and Acts, represent greater worldwide bodies in the end time.

Just as Jesus was born, and later taught His disciples for 3-1/2 years, the end time man-child in Revelation 12 is born, then proceeds to teach the end time disciples for 3-1/2 years. Just as Jesus imparted the former rain to His disciples, the man-child will impart the latter rain to the disciples of the end times. Then, in the last 3-1/2 years of the tribulation, the end time disciples will go out and be persecuted and killed by the harlot and beast exactly as were the disciples of Acts. The beast will also destroy the harlot at the end of the tribulation just as was done in 70 AD.These words of Knowledge and Wisdom are keys to end time revelation. This will become apparent as we continue. I realize that this is not tradition but it is Scriptural, as we shall see. One great advantage in seeing this is that you will know where you fit and what to expect. Those who believe that the man-child is the Jesus of 2000 years ago and the seven-headed, ten-horned beast is an individual called the antichrist will not know what hit them. They will be victims of the strong delusion called the “letter” or, if you prefer, the traditions of men. Even if you believe there is a physical aspect to these characters, pay close attention to the many proofs presented of the end-time scenario and that your understanding will be multiplied.

This is all true according to the Bible, although its difficult to "get" at first . I found that I first had to leave my preconceived ideas behind, before God could show me this.

It goes against everything that I have been taught, and yet, when I saw it, it changed my life. It truly is the Good News, and it is actually something that I find to be extraordinary in the way that God is doing all this for His people. The man child is an incredible solution and shows a Godly Mind, that worked it all out.

I am always in awe about it.

Bro Jon, maybe we could look at the types and shadows in the OT that point to all these "single" corporate groups. I know that there are many, like Jezebel and Ahab, we get Joseph and Moses, we have David and as you already pointed out even Jesus Himself is "a sign" (pointing to something else)

These single personalities embody the whole being of the corporate group. God , instead of just saying
" These people are going to fall away" , He uses the types and shadow, so that the picture becomes rich with meaning and very clear. He will use Judas , to point to the Son of Perdition Group. Same with the Harlot, she is a clear example of God using "one" for "many"

C

I always Felt in my Spirit that the 144,000 witness that are not defiled by "woman" isn't a physical defilement, but spiritual. Whoever these folks are, ( and I even wonder if it is an actual 144,000, or is this symbolic also?) they have not been defiled by todays doctrines and traditions of man.

Rev. 17:11 informs us that the final supreme "beast" is a KING.

Throughout the Bible, a "king" is always a "man".

Therefore the final supreme "beast" is a man.

Whereas of "Mystery Babylon", The heavenly voice says "come out of her my people" [Rev 18]

Therefore "Mystery Babylon" cannot be a single person.

HOWEVER-

Be consistent...the Beast has 7 heads...how many MEN have more than 1 head? Also the symbolic "Harlot" rides the Beast..so are you saying a group of people ride on a MAN? Is the man RED? Does the man have 10 horns? His head is wounded...HHHmmm...so now he is a 7 headed-10 horned, red MAN who has a nasty wound...uhh...do you really believe this? You must be consistent in your analysis.

Yes, the BEAST is a "MAN"- all who reject Christ and turn to the New World Order make up this "man" corporately. Remember, this is a parable. You are either in CHRIST or in the Beast body filled with the spirit of Antichrist.

Josh-

I wonder if the 144,000 is spiritual as well, but this I have been shown...that the number 144 represents those who STAND. Check this out---

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, (144,000) having his Father's name written in their foreheads.


Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. ( These "stand" in faith serving God in maturity)

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

12 represents God's government as in the Apostles and the tribes of Israel...these 144,000 are the overcomers who will rule with a rod of Iron..

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Actually. if people will just look at the scripture instead of just giving their opinion they will see:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Goodness it is so clear. Those who overcome through faith in the done works of Jesus, will RULE the nations with a rod of iron.

There is nothing unclear here,

C

[quote name='BrotherJon' date='Nov 7 2007, 09:50 PM' post='128835']
[quote name='John Prewett' post='128784' date='Nov 7 2007, 02:56 AM']
Rev. 17:11 informs us that the final supreme "beast" is a KING.

Throughout the Bible, a "king" is always a "man".

Therefore the final supreme "beast" is a man.

Whereas of "Mystery Babylon", The heavenly voice says "come out of her my people" [Rev 18]

Therefore "Mystery Babylon" cannot be a single person.
[/quote]

HOWEVER-

Be consistent...the Beast has 7 heads...how many MEN have more than 1 head? Also the symbolic "Harlot" rides the Beast..so are you saying a group of people ride on a MAN? Is the man RED? Does the man have 10 horns? His head is wounded...HHHmmm...so now he is a 7 headed-10 horned, red MAN who has a nasty wound...uhh...do you really believe this? You must be consistent in your analysis.

Yes, the BEAST is a "MAN"- all who reject Christ and turn to the New World Order make up this "man" corporately. Remember, this is a parable. You are either in CHRIST or in the Beast body filled with the spirit of Antichrist.

++++++++++++++++++++

JP- I doubt the final "beast" will be a literally seven headed, literally 10 horned, red man.

If he is, then he will be exceedingly easy to spot !

Rev 17:9-12 explains the heads and horns.

I don't know why the final "beast" is called "scarlet", however, I doubt the "beast" will be vivid red.

The "harlot riding the beast" is fulfilled in that the Roman Catholic cult/Vatican initially controls the final supreme "beast".

The final supreme "beast" will be a world famous Roman Catholic man who has had a fatal appearing head wound.

The world thinks him dead. Even though the world never saw him openly lying in a casket.

The world will be amazed when it sees the "beast" that "was, and is not, and yet is".

The world would not be amazed at the survival of a person the world never heard of.

Therefore the final supreme "beast" has to be someone who is famous.

Can you think of a world famous Roman Catholic who had a fatal appearing head wound under extrememly mysterious circumstances?

Yesterday I saw a TV documentary about the shooting of such a person. I've seen such TV documentaries for years. Even saw a few movies regarding the shooting.

All aspects of this persons shooting have been vigorously publically debated for over 40 years.

Most world famous fatal appearing head wound in world history.

Repeatedly seen on TV around the world for decades.

JP, you are missing what BroJon is saying. He is saying that you (and others) are mixing up the prophetic language, by sometimes saying its a group (You are saying that the Harlot is the RCC, a group )
but you are also saying that the Beast is NOT a group, but that the Group called the Harlot, is riding on top of a man. But you are forgetting that this "man" is part of a prophetic language, where God is using SINGLE characters, to describe groups. The "Harlot" is a group, that have the characteristics of a harlot (spiritual adultery, of which more than the RCC is guilty......) The Harlot is MORE than just the RCC, but INCLUDES the RCC. Most of the Protestant movement is also in the Harlot.

The Beast , as BJ has pointed out cannot be a single man, because why would the Bible say he has seven heads? 10 horns and he is red ! This cannot be a man, but it must be describing, (being consistent) a group, like the Harlot is a group.

C

But C...who needs to be consistent when it goes against the traditional teachings of the "church"? It's amazing how difficult this is for Christians to receive. Everyone seems to want a single MAN called THE Antichrist....but they have no problem with the Woman on the moon and the Harlot being groups. Wassssup wit dat?

Ok I understand the Beast from the Sea being a corp. entity.... but what is your veiw on the Beast from the Earth?

Your Friend in Christ,
Val
Messiahiscoming

To understand Revelation, you need to understand Daniel.

Jesus said it:


And Peter said it:



In fact the light in a dark place could even refer to Daniel in Babylon, holding true to God.

---------------------------------

Now look what Daniel says about the King of Babylon

If the anti-christ is a spirit, we shouldn't be surprised to see it in a man.

So how many in : Every ??

SO:

If the anti-christ is a spirit, we shouldn't be surprised to see it in MEN.

and......

I'm guessing that all those who believe in a lie
(those with the antichrist spirit)

will eventually bow down to their leader.

By the way, the Pharisees knew darn well who Jesus was, they just chose not follow him at the expense of their own Comfort Thrones.

They even went so far as to blaspheme the Holy Ghost to defend their Comfort Thrones.

And don't be surprised to see a counterfeit Holy ghost,
the Spirit of Satan working miracles,
in the last hours.

There are only TWO MEN on Earth.
1.
Christ- He is not here in his physical body (yet) BUT He dwells in His corporate body through His indwelling Spirit.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2.
Antichrist- A spirit that also inhabits HIS corporate body on earth.

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jn 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one.

1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, my little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you (Christ) than he that is in the world. (Antichrist)

You are either in the Body of Christ OR you are in the Body of the Antichrist.

Two men.

Their leader is satan

Our leader is Jesus Christ.

You must understand that the fact that there will be leadership attached to the beast, does not make the leader of the beast system The Antichrist. They are ALL antichrist who do not believe that Christ "is cometh" in the flesh (meaning all who do not believe that Christ is IN His people at this moment)

C

Maybe, but maybe not.

The shadow of Nebuchadnezzar is to me the image of the Antichrist.

But that is another amazing perception.
Legalistic Christianity does not believe that Christ in us is enough.

Yes he is: Here you see God using ONE person to tell us about MANY

Now look at Jacob (Israel) he is also ONE, yet MANY.

Jesus (One) , but now the Body of Christ is MANY.

Judas , ONE, will be MANY in the "Son of perdition" (Great falling away)

Jezebel in ONE, yet she is the type and shadow of the Harlot (Many)

The beast is ONE , yet MANY.

Two MEN (singular as in just two ) yet it speaks of the whole planet and all people on the planet.
Body of Christ (many) and Body of Antichrist (Many)

Two woman grinding.
One is the church (MANY)
One is the Harlot (MANY)

Same pattern always, same prophetic language.
Olive tree (ONE) .....MANY

Jerusalem ONE= all saints in the Bride

Babylon (one) = all outside "Jerusalem" , again MANY

C

[quote name='John Prewett' date='Nov 9 2007, 12:52 AM' post='129128']
[quote name='BrotherJon' date='Nov 7 2007, 09:50 PM' post='128835']
[quote name='John Prewett' post='128784' date='Nov 7 2007, 02:56 AM']
Rev. 17:11 informs us that the final supreme "beast" is a KING.

Throughout the Bible, a "king" is always a "man".

Therefore the final supreme "beast" is a man.

Whereas of "Mystery Babylon", The heavenly voice says "come out of her my people" [Rev 18]

Therefore "Mystery Babylon" cannot be a single person.
[/quote]

HOWEVER-

Be consistent...the Beast has 7 heads...how many MEN have more than 1 head? Also the symbolic "Harlot" rides the Beast..so are you saying a group of people ride on a MAN? Is the man RED? Does the man have 10 horns? His head is wounded...HHHmmm...so now he is a 7 headed-10 horned, red MAN who has a nasty wound...uhh...do you really believe this? You must be consistent in your analysis.

Yes, the BEAST is a "MAN"- all who reject Christ and turn to the New World Order make up this "man" corporately. Remember, this is a parable. You are either in CHRIST or in the Beast body filled with the spirit of Antichrist.

++++++++++++++++++++

JP- I doubt the final "beast" will be a literally seven headed, literally 10 horned, red man.

If he is, then he will be exceedingly easy to spot !

Rev 17:9-12 explains the heads and horns.

I don't know why the final "beast" is called "scarlet", however, I doubt the "beast" will be vivid red.

The "harlot riding the beast" is fulfilled in that the Roman Catholic cult/Vatican initially controls the final supreme "beast".

The final supreme "beast" will be a world famous Roman Catholic man who has had a fatal appearing head wound.

The world thinks him dead. Even though the world never saw him openly lying in a casket.

The world will be amazed when it sees the "beast" that "was, and is not, and yet is".

The world would not be amazed at the survival of a person the world never heard of.

Therefore the final supreme "beast" has to be someone who is famous.

Can you think of a world famous Roman Catholic who had a fatal appearing head wound under extrememly mysterious circumstances?

Yesterday I saw a TV documentary about the shooting of such a person. I've seen such TV documentaries for years. Even saw a few movies regarding the shooting.

All aspects of this persons shooting have been vigorously publically debated for over 40 years.

Most world famous fatal appearing head wound in world history.

Repeatedly seen on TV around the world for decades.
[/quote]




The reason for the color red was to show guilt of the blood of the saints Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Isa. 1:18 though your sins be as scarlet, Now look at the difference between the great red dragon in Rev. 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his HEADS. (look where the crowns are located) This beast was Pagan Rome, which martyered the early reign church, because it was told them that the christians were causing a uprising. The romans were fairly tolerant of other religions, but demanded loyality to their government.

Now look at Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the seay, and saw a beast rise up out the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his HORNS ten crowns and upon his heads the names of blasphemy. (look where the crowns are located) Horns represent religious powers, or the ecclesiastic workings. Papal Rome. In Rev. 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast:

Look at the history of what Napoleon did to the catholic churches leader, he dealt a deadly blow taking away his authority, and exiling him to an island. Today the wound is virtually healed, although there is still some stigmatism attached to her, she is more and more accepted, and that will continue to grow. In times of increasing trouble the world is looking for safety, then the beast will offer to solve the worlds problems, and broker a peace accord.....1Thess. 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So you have the beast and the dragon which gives it's power to the beast. Dragon=Civil governments, Beast=religious powers. Catholism looks to be the leading force of false religion, but lets not forget all of her harlot daughters, that look and act alot like there mother. Isa. 4:1 And in that day seven women shal take hold of one man, (false prophet, the leader of the mother harlot=babylon) saying, We will eat our own bread, (have our own little doctrines) and wear our own apparel: (have our own way of working, traditions) only let us be called by thy name, (take the mark of the beast) to take away our reproach.

There is coming a persecution of the true church, who will because they are not decieved will not recieve the mark of the beast, neither in their foreheads=doctrines of man, their right hand=fellowship with false church, or the number of the name=being a member of a church that is in a confederation with them.

There is good people that are in each of these catagories, but are dumb to the fact that they are, but when their churches start siding with those who will persecute the true believers, they will be forced to make a decision, to stay or Come out of her! I don't feel that we will see a great endgathering, until the persecution comes on the saints of God. Rev.6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, (all the overcomers that have reached that goal from Christ time until now) and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried wiht a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them: (only overcomers will recieve a white robe, and eventually everyone will have to be an overcomer to have eternal life) and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethern, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

My opinion is that this saying to them is at the begining of the persecution, prior to the bride of christ being called away at its end. Which will occur during the middle of the last prophetic hour. Rev. 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Reference 1Kings 6:7 it speaks of the building of Solomans temple, to which all the work was done in the field, and when it was time to assemble it, not the sound of a hammer was heard, it just all went together. I think that means all the work is being performed in our lives today, and when Jesus comes back for his church, there will be nothing left to be done, other than put us together. So many think they will be changed somewhere between here and the tree tops, and all of our nasty works of the flesh will be done away with, surprize it ain't happening that way.

God knows you are talking the truth here brother. Scary as it might be and it should make us think twice about "working out our salvation with fear and trembling"

Overcoming is such a huge issue in the Bible, yet most in the church ignore it. Why" Because they have been taught: Just open your heart and receive Jesus and you will be saved forever.
Scary, deadly doctrine that kills.

C

The whole world is waiting for the manifestations of the sons of God, we need to start manifesting God in our lives. I heard a saying once, that said, "It remains to be seen what can truly be done in the life of one totally yielded to the will of God." I'm not sure who said it, but I want to test it out, LOL!

Brother, this has been on my mind forever and I am always listening to the testimonies of people with "another ear" I listen for the "how" and the "why" it happened.

This week, the Lord reminded me and showed me again: HE MOVES, when we are dead to self. We are only the vessel through which He works.

Works of wool and not of linen. Works (believing in HIM about His promises) not of linen (plant of the earth and of "works") . Also "no sound at the building of the temple: No WORKS. God is building this, not us.

When we are dead to self, God can BE.
SO I count myself dead as Romans teaches, and alive to God in Christ. Only IN HIM (the WORD) do I move and have my being.

The time is almost here for the revelation of the sons of God. Most are not ready !
C

C, After reading many of your post I find alittle difference, and I'm not sure it's a right /wrong issue. It seems your waiting for an event, rather than it being a work in progress. I think that if you have the ministry working in your midst, people should be overcoming now, but I do see that when the tribulation comes, it will happen at an increased rate, just because of the pressure that will be applied to the saints of God.

We will all be force to make decisions, that affect our outcomes. Now it seems that God uses different things to let us grow by, like sickness being the most prevelant. It really makes people think about the finality of their lives, and where they want to spend eternity. Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' sope: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

I'm sure we have all heard the anology of the refiner, he heats the fire under the pot to melt the precious metal, the impurities coming to the top, called dross. He dips off the dross, and continues to heat it and dip until it's pure. How does he know it's finished? When he leans over the pot and can only see the reflection of himself.

Jesus is applying fire to our lives , (Luke 3:16) and takes the works of the flesh out of our lives, till we will look like him when he's finished with us. Its hard to not resist the fire, but we need to realize that he's only working for our good, trimming to bear fruit in our lives.

Speaking as one that has not yet attained, LOL! Mouser

Today I'm home from work, to fix a leak in my plumbing, so I need to get that done, but I want to post one of my favorite scriptures, of which there are many, LOL! 1John3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. My commentary, keep in mind that Jesus is coming for the Bride of Christ only once, and it will be collective, but he can come for us at any given time. He told his disciples that his time was not yet, but that their time was always. 1Thess. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall weever be with the Lord. My take on this those that are asleep means over comers that are seated at the feet of God and Christ, yet have not authority given unto them. Rev.6:9-10 When he comes back for his bride, these he will bring with him, and they shall rise first=recieve power or position, and the overcomers that are on the earth at the time of his coming will meet them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is not a resurrection, because they are not dead. Jesus told us that if we believe on him we shall not die, meaning spirit not body. Although those that are coming back with him have died a physical death, they are alive spiritually. Rev. 20:4 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Now read vs. 5 of Rev. 20 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will be loosed and then the resurrection will happen, not at all in our day. The first resurrection that is being spoken of is our spiritual resurrection from death unto live, because of the curse which Adam put on all flesh. Really it's the fulfillment of Christ in us to it's finality, ultimately becoming like Christ. I'll check back later for responses

Any takers?

Hi Val,

The sea is a metaphor for humanity, the human race, for the people are as many as the stars; are as many as the grains of sands of the sea. The beast that rises from the sea is the ideology of government rule that rises from humanity. It's a beast because it is discompassionate and always feeding, eating, consuming and waring. It has several heads because each head represents the various types of government that had ruled on earth. This beast receives it's power from the dragon that was transfered to it when the dragon was sealed away in the abyss.

The beast that arises from the earth has horns like a lamb signifies this beast is Christ-like, but in a false way. It arises from the earth where the devil was sealed in the abyss. This beast represents religion claimed to be based on Christ but is deceiving in it's doctrine.

Both beasts are spirits that influence men when they come together and plan to rule and control people.

Yes I am waiting for an event.I am waiting for 2Th 1:10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

I am waiting for Rev 12 , for the birth of the man child, or the unveiling or revelation of the sons of God.But I am not alone in this waiting, Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

I agree with you that we are in the process of overcoming, first through faith in the done works of Jesus (He has already, perfected those who believe , but this perfection is "in and by faith", not manifested yet, but it must be) We are prophetically THERE now, when the woman (church) will bring forth the man child. This must be before the tribulation starts. You know how few actually think about Christ being IN them. A remnant. The rest make jokes about it and mock the idea (read on this forum and see for yourself)

Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man (Body of Christ) doth travail with child: wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds; and strangers shall no more make him their bondman;
Jer 30:9 but they shall serve Jehovah their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

The manifestation brings freedom from sin and bondage. Behold the Lamb of God Who taketh away the sin of the world.
The blood of goats and bulls only covered, but HIS BLOOD breaks the bonds and takes away the sin nature. Only if we believe that the arm of the Lord is not too short to save, will this be. Christ in us, the hope of glory.

SO I believe that Christ in us is like the Bible tells us: "is cometh" it is a present continues tense. Jesus is busy coming in the believers, before He will be coming on the clouds. First a manifestation as Christ (in the BODY OF CHRIST) then on the clouds.

Many disagree and get themselves totally upset about this, but it is in the scriptures . They cannot explain the man child, because all they say is :It is Mary and Jesus, but we all know that Jesus said: Rev 4:1 ............ Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

So how the woman on the moon can be Mary and Jesus AND things hereafter, I cannot begin to understand.

Some refuse this because it is not in line with the pre-trib rapture, so they must deny this at all cost.
The second group's flesh actually sees this, but they go "blind" because it means "overcoming" is real.

Here is the man child (I can hear the screams already ) See if you can see the overcomer "factor" in this group:

Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women (No doctrines of men); for they are virgins(only the Word ). These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth(He that want to follow Jesus must take up his cross and die). These were purchased from among men (the redeemed), to be the firstfruits (more will come)unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no lie:(They only speak the Word:1Pe 4:11 if any man speaketh, speaking as it were oracles of God) they are without blemish. (They have taken perfection by faith and started walking in it, then God "let it be to you according to your faith" and manifested sonship...Christ in them the hope of glory. They believed the Gospel, and they took the whole free gift. God removed their sinful nature, because they believed that He could and will do it)

C

C, you are very inspired, but I think you are being a little one-eyed here.

What about 1 to describe 1.

Joseph, Moses, David.

They are all types of Christ.

And regarding Judas:

'

Just 1 lost.

The blasphemy of the Holy ghost = trying to pass off tricks as the work of the Holy Ghost


The individual is the temple
God is the Holy Ghost

Work it out for yourselves

Sure I see the overcoming factor in them, from the time I was old enough to begin to understand the scriptures I've been taught that. I don't think we are too far off from each other in our thinking, more alike than different, LOL! The man child, or Bride of Christ is a collective group of believers that have met all he has laid out for them. To not come off as exclusive, Jesus is the one that has placed these qualifications on us, Rev. 17:14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL, He calls, and chooses, we are to only be faithful. I feel that there has been overcomers through out the ages, since Jesus time, he list them in 2nd, and 3rd chapters of Rev. talking about the 7 seven churches of Asia, which are seven time periods, each having overcomers, even though they were in churches full of evil. It's a matter of applying the Gospel to your life, and allowing Christ to change you from what you once were. I can't begin to imagine christians that after being "saved" they are no different in their actions. Why would Christ have even had the 12 Chapter of Hebs. put there, it's about being corrected for bad actions. Also the Beast, we know that it's not a animal, but a group of people that have let their own religious thoughts get between them and God. I still haven't seen anyone comment on the resurrection that takes place in Rev. 20 and 5. It plainly states that the people that have not recieved the mark of the beast, and were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (not nessecerarily literal beheading) would rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years! But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished
I've seen no one handle this scripture, the resurrection is not right here before us, prior to armagedon, but 1,000 yrs. after armagedon is over. There is a distinct difference between Jesus catching his bride away, and the resurrection, two different events. 1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (man child, bride of christ) Then cometh the en, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (We know that in revelations 20 after the 1,000 yrs. there is still trouble, and God judges out of the books, and then it goes on into the new heaven and new earth, after the battle of Gog and Magog.) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (As stated in Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death,........) So what do you think, read it, pray, and let the spirit of God talk to your heart.

I agree. We actually agree on more things, than disagree

I do not know if I read you correctly about the resurrection, but here is what I believe:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So the righteous gets resurrected in the first resurrection, but the ungodly does not. (Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection) So the holy gets resurrected and at that time, the rapture happens as well. (Now the whole Body of Christ is together, those who died and those who still are living at the time )
Then a thousand years of reign
Then the "very last round"
Satan bound
Last resurrection: the ungodly: Judgement Seat

ALL OVER

Praise God
C

We're very close, just a little off, I see the first resurrection as the spiritual fulfillment of what Jesus came to do, live in us and make us like him. So, the end of vs. 5 is describing that of the people in vs. 4. In vs. 12 of 20, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works, and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. I personally don't see a resurrection for the just, and then one for the unjust. I see Christ coming for his bride, with the Dead in Christ in tow, and then after the 1,000 yr. reign the resurrection. Death and hell is false religion, which is cast into the lake of fire in Rev. 19:20, the system of false religion will be done away with in armagedon, but false religion will try to raise it's head everyonce in a while through the 1,000 yrs. with Satan being loosed to decieve again at the end of the 1,000 yrs. So that would make all things not being under his feet, and death not being done away with until after Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and false prophet. C, keep looking at it, and searching the scriptures with an open heart, as will I, because I only want the truth. The first resurrection is tied to the spirit birth, because in Adam all die, but in Christ are all made alive.

Thank you Bob! So you do not ascribe to the view of a literal Anti- Christ... or False Prophet..... but hold to this view?

Just trying to understand where everyone is at here.... Thanks

Your Friend in Christ,
Val
Messiahiscoming

My head hurts...

So the righteous gets resurrected in the first resurrection, but the ungodly does not. (Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection) So the holy gets resurrected and at that time, the rapture happens as well. (Now the whole Body of Christ is together, those who died and those who still are living at the time )
Then a thousand years of reign
Then the "very last round"
Satan bound
Last resurrection: the ungodly: Judgement Seat

ALL OVER

Praise God
C
[/quote]

I might have already anwsered this, but I don't think the ungodly will ever resurrect, there is no need, they have been condemned for their unbelief, now the sinners, that's a different story. There's no life outside of Christ, none period. The scripture that tells us this is in Roms. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now I ask you where is eternal life coming from? Who is it given to? What do people recieve that continue to sin? Dig Deep it's there to see if we will only look.

Corporate theology is a total "break down" ..... not a break through. This is one of the major corruptions and apostacies of sound doctrine scheduled for the last days. Let the reader beware. The "corporate" theological cult is a dead end road. The poster is adding extra-Biblical "junk" to the scriptures. Let the reader beware.

Those who believe that the man-child is the Jesus of 2000 years ago and the seven-headed, ten-horned beast is an individual called the antichrist will not know what hit them. They will be victims of the strong delusion called the “letter” or, if you prefer, the traditions of men. Even if you believe there is a physical aspect to these characters, pay close attention to the many proofs presented of the end-time scenario and that your understanding will be multiplied.

Bible interpretation cannot possibly be "consistantly" literal or symbolic.

It has to be contextually literal, or contextually symbolic, and it is usually very clear which is which.

Hi Mouser, I am looking and praying and as always, I believe the Lord will show me.I have to wait for clarification from the Lord.
Great I always find that if something new comes along, that if we are open to the Lord that He will show us. Even if it takes time. I trust Him to do it.
Changing ones opinion and being wrong , and them realising it is so great, because hidden behind one's wrong understanding is always a wonderful truth that sets free from a lie.
Thanks for taking time to explain this, I will wait with an open heart .


C

C, that's what drew me to you to start with. Jesus blessed those that had eyes to see, and ears to hear, and Paul spoke of the curse to them that had not a love for the truth. Where do we fall in these catagories? Truly any revelation we have that is true, came from the Lord. Jesus told us to worship God in spirit and truth, it takes both. I can't ask for more than people to look at it and pray.

"Here is wisdom.

Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.

His number is 666"

Who knows, maybe "man" means "man". As in an adult male human being.

And throughout the bible, a "king" is still a "man".

People get all mixed up because they feed off one anothers posts and never actually read the scripture.
There are actually two beasts. A beast which comes out of the sea and another which comes out of the earth. It is the beast out of the sea which has the seven heads and ten horns. This is the beast which the woman rides. Now the seven heads are revealed in Rev 17 to be seven kings of empires. If we look at the beast itself it is a various conglomerate of the world empires featured in the Bible. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek and Roman empires. So depending on how we count it we can conclude that there were 5 empires past and one present at the time of John being the Roman empire. Leaving one great empire to remain to come in the end times. This great empire will have ten kings so that it is most likely a conglomerate of ten powerful nations, probably European. They have a brief period of power at the end times.

Now then there is a mysterious eighth king who is described as the beast that "was and is not". The fact that he goes into perdition is a clue that this may be an incarnation of Judas Iscariot who "was" and then who died who is also called the "Son of Perdition".

So we can start to get a picture that the beast out of the sea is massive secular power, a world empire who is in league with another beast who "was and is not". Now let me remind you that the ten nations at the end time have ten individual KINGS. Also the seven heads were individual KINGS. Therefore the eighth head is also an individual KING. Not a corporate body. This is crucially important. So the first beast of the sea IS a corporate body but the other beast IS NOT a corporate body and IS an individual even though he may well have a backing organisation just as a king has a kingdom.

Now let us find out a little bit more about this other beast which "was and is not". Lets go back to Rev 13 where we will clearly see that the Beast which comes out of the earth described quite seperately to the beast with seven heads and ten horns. This other beast from the earth has two horns and speaks like a dragon. This is a clear reference to an apostate religious leader. This character comes to power and exercises all the power of the secular empire so he is a kind of church and state dictator which wields power over the ten secular kings of the nations in the empire.

So the Beast (Beast of the Sea, ten kinged World Empire) and the False Prophet(Beast of the Earth, Apostate church man/emporer) work together to persecute the saints.

So where does the great whore come into it? Well she is a great city. Now why would all the other images refer to mountains as kingdoms and then resort to the image of a city if it were not anything but a city. This end time city dominates the whole world including the ten kinged empire. But tensions rise and the ten kinged empire rise up in rebellion and overthrow the great city. It as this point that the false prophet by subtility and plot takes over control of the world empire and rules the whole world.

Now just to correct a common error. The antichrist is not the seven headed beast, he is the two lambs horn beast.

Please remember this scenario as I feel that it will clear up considerable confusion.

The beast that was in John's day was Pagan Rome, The Holy Roman Empire came next, but was wounded unto death. It's head has been healed, and people of our time will worship the image of that beast today.

Yes...but on a more personal level...the bible calls MAN "beasts"....so everyone who loves their life in THIS world are actually worshiping the image of the beast.....love of the "self" life. (Esau) Corporately it will include the conforming to the global government system....but individually it's the worship of SELF.

Psa 49:12 But man being in honor abideth not: He is like the beasts that perish.

Psa 49:20 Man that is in honor, and understandeth not, Is like the beasts that perish.

Most people really think rather highly of themselves. this is worshiping the image of the beast. Christ calls us to deny self.....the "world" loves self...self esteem...self realization...self actualization....self-love....self respect...and on and on and on......... we are to die to self......kill the beast.

To believe this departure from sound doctrine and from the facts of the scripture is nonsense. The beast of Revelation is not described in this manner by any stretch of the imagination. Either ignorance and or deception abounds in the above post. Let the reader beware.

Wow....couldn't you just say, "I disagree with this interpretation and here's why"....? LOL!

I posted scriptures, you didn't. All the unsaved worship the image of the beast....self-worship. yes, there will be a physical "Mark" in the end-times but people have been "marked" throughout history as the bible clearly teaches.

Here's MORE scriptural proof that God calls man "beasts" Only those who have spiritual eyes can see this...those that are stuck in Phariseeistic religion can't.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Is it clear to the reader that God calls man "beasts"? If you love the flesh, you are worshiping the beast.

Just as Esau did.....he is a type of ALL who turn from God and for the sake of THIS LIFE sell their birthright.

The mark on the hand= Deeds of the FLESH
The mark on the forehead=Carnal mind

Those who are thusly marked spiritually WILL take the coming physical mark of the Beast (NWO Global system)

666

It's the number of MAN...not "a" man...the article "a" is NOT in the ancient manuscripts......

So you can see that man who worships self---or self government--or Man's Government---it's all the same to God. The worship of the Beast.

To those with eyes to see.....

No, no Stephen. When you do not understand something, do not call it departure from sound doctrine. I understand all that this brother is saying . It makes perfect Biblical sense. .

BroJon is actually posting Scripture and not just that, his scriptures makes sense. One is able to read them and see what God is teaching us throughout scripture. Jon's post covers a wide spectrum of scripture and shows insight and wisdom.
So do not degrade it , just because you do not understand it.
C

Amen C...those with eyes to see simply need to look at the scriptures I posted. The Holy Spirit will confirm this to those that belong to the Lord. The tares won't be allowed to receive this.

Brother Jon...This is an amazing thread!!! Thank you so much for sharing these deep truths from the Word!!!!

I'm used to the C'Jon tag team patting themselves on the back in support of each other's non-traditional doctrines. But now we have the Jon'Jon team patting himself on the back. What next.