7 Years of Wrath

The opening of the 7 seals is not actual tribulation action, but the preview of the prevalent conditions which will exist during the 7 year period. It is the scroll that contains the actual events, not the seals. The scroll contains the vision of the 7 year tribulation period and all of the events are related to the Lord’s wrath against those (all mortal unbelievers on the earth just after His “harpazo” action for the Body of Christ) who refuse to believe the truth about Him. The Lord will control all of these events of His wrath either directly or indirectly. The time frame of 7 years is the beginning of the Day of the Lord and it will exist between the Lord’s “harpazo” action to gather the Body of Christ and the beginning of His millennial kingdom on the earth which will last for 1,000 years.

Chapter 8 records the 4 trumpet actions which include the opening events of the tribulation period. These events will involve the burning of MBG’s “great city” and the surrounding destructive effects.

Chapter 9 records the first two woes (5th and 6th trumpets) which include satan's coming to the earth with his fallen angelics and the release of those who are imprisoned in the abyss and those bound at the Euphrates River in the Middle East. The Lord will control all of this activity against an unbelieving world of humans.

Chapter 10 divides the presentation and indicates more details to come including repeats of selected subjects and the ending events of the period.

Chapter 11 includes the beginning of witness by the Lord’s two prophets and their ending resurrection. This action takes place in the second 1,260 days of the tribulation period during satan’s rule over Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount. The 3rd woe follows in the next 30 days.

Chapter 12 is an overview of national Israel and satan’s pursuit in attempts to destroy the nation and the Lord. There are historical reach backs and the events that will occur during the second 1,260 days of the tribulation period including satan’s coming to the earth with his fallen angelics and his warfare against believing national Israel in the land of Israel and those who reside in the nations at the time.

Chapter 13 presents details of satan’s beast who will arise in the Middle East and his false prophet who will lead his cult of worshipers. The chapter also presents those humans who will not follow and worship, and these will be killed for refusal to submit.

Chapter 14 is a repeating cycle and overview of the 2,520 days of the period including the 144,000 sealed Israelites at the beginning who will carry the gospel to the nations, the burning of MBG’s “great city”, the subsequent worship of satan’s beast, the martyrdom of those who refuse to follow and worship, the resurrection of these at the end of the period, and the gathering of satan’s followers to the winepress of Armageddon.

Chapters 15 and 16 views the saved martyrs of the period in heaven and the beginning of the events of the 3rd woe (the days of the 7th trumpet), the 7 vials against satan, his beast, and followers which take place in the next 30 days culminating in the battle of Armageddon. The Lord will destroy satan's kingdom and will take back the earth and rule it Himself for 1,000 years.

Chapter 17 is an overview and description of the history of the woman of intransigent lost humanity and of satan’s beast (Abaddon-Apollyon) and events that include both at the time of the end.

Chapter 18 is a detailed description of the burning of MBG’s “great city” which occurs at the beginning of the tribulation period. The Lord’s “harpazo” action for the Body of Christ will take place just before this destruction.

Chapter 19 is a repeating cycle and overview of the burning of MBG’s “great city”, the subsequent marriage supper of the Body of Christ in heaven, and the final battle of Armageddon completing the 2,550 days of the period.

Chapter 20 records the capture and imprisonment of satan and the beginning of the Lord’s millennial kingdom on the earth. It also includes the satanically inspired human rebellion at the end of the 1,000 years. All of the spirits (tares) of unbelieving humanity from the beginning of human existence will then be judged, gathered, and burned in the lake of fire, including satan.

Chapters 21 and 22 record the new heavens and new earth and all of the believing immortals (wheat) who will participate. It ends with a warning by the Lord against those who tamper with His Revelation and His statement regarding the imminence of His intervention.

If the scroll contains the vision of the 7 year tribulation period after the rapture of the church, then where is the rapture mentioned before the 7 seals? You would think that the greatest event in the history of the church since the cross and resurrection would be at least mentioned. Is it possible that the reason it isn't mentioned is because there is no pre trib rapture?
For that matter, there is no mention of seven years associated with the seals.

No 3AM, your conclusion is not possible. The seals and scroll have nothing to do with the Lord's "harpazo" action, but are His documented wrath and judgments against an unbelieving world of humans who refuse to believe the truth about Him. Your analysis here is far short of the bigger picture which includes His promise to keep living believers at the time from His wrath just before He opens the seals. In fact, the Body of Christ immortalized will be His audiance in heaven viewing the opening of the seals and the subsequent events of His wrath taking place on the earth. John saw all of this in advance so that he could record it for you to read today. Read and understand your Bible. Then your next challenge might be to redirect your church ..... if they will allow you to stay. Sorry but the pre-conceptions of the traditional SDA based upon EGW's Great Controversy are keeping you from correct exegesis of the end times and other truths.

actually, most conservative bible scholars believe that the message to the churches is also a message to the different ages of the church...notice the letter to the church in Philadelphia...Jesus promised to keep them from the hr of great tribulation that will come on all the earth...this is not a promise to some small village in Turkey...it is a promise meant for the body of Christ that will be alive at the time the Trib starts...also notice that a door is opened in Heaven, the trumpet souds and a voice says, come up hither..then john is shown all the things that will happen "hereafter"...here after what? a door opens in heaven, a trumpet blows, a voice says come up hither and john is in heaven...sounds like he saw the rapture to me...

Revelation 14:1-6
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth

There are a couple of things in your outline that dont quite seem to fit.
Where does this text or chapter say anything about the 144000 preaching the gospel to the nations? The 144000 are standing before the throne in heaven and they have already been redeemed from the earth in this passage. They were the first fruits in the harvest (v 14-16)
Verse 6 says it was the first angel proclaiming the gospel on earth not the 144000.
Jesus commissioned the church to proclaim the gospel to the world. Interesting! is it possible that since Revelation is a symbolic book, that the angels ("messengers" in Greek are symbolic of God's church?)
Especially since the book is a testimony from Jesus to his churches (Rev 1:1-4) and he closes the book by repeating it for emphasis,
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star (Re 22:16).
It seems odd that a rapture of the church before the tribulation is never mentioned in Revelation, and Jesus ends the letter reminding us that it was written to the churches, yet so many say that the church is not even present.

DN,

He did ..... in advance. He will experience it himself as one "dead in Christ" (sleeping) again at the Lord's "harpazo" action. John will awake to the Lord's shout (in the form of an angelic trumpet/voice) , resurrected, and translated to immortality with the living believers at the time. One needs to notice this same method of communication in chapters 1 and 4. I believe the first is the "first" trump for the Lord's initial and formal communication to the Body of Christ; and the second in chapter 4 is the "last" trump for the Body of Christ referred to by Paul.

As far as the Lord's communication to the Body of Christ, I would say this: There may be some sequencing of the "church age" implied by the examples of the Lord's evaluation of the positive and negative behaviors, but I tend to see the broader overview of the same which existed in the first century and even today.

Thanks for posting this outline, it generates lots of good discussion points.
Just curious about where does Revelation mention the 30 days? I may have missed it but I don't see it in that text.
v19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
Good point, Revelation 19 shows the battle of Armageddon is a war between Jesus on the white horse against the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies. I think that is important because the popular view (Left Behind Novel Series) is that it is a war between Israel and the Nations of the earth. I think it is important to keep Jesus at the center of the prophecy and emphasize that it is the wicked of the earth against Jesus. After all, the book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ."
Amen
3am

No 3AM; the 144,000 are sealed saved mortal Israelites who will take the gospel first to an unbelieving national Israel and then to the nations during the 7 year period. They are first seen on mount Zion (with the Lord ..... He will not be seen by the world until the end of the 7 years) on the earth (this is Jerusalem on the earth ...... and they are not in heaven). They will be the first mortal converts (saved) of the 7 year tribulation period ..... first believers (first fruits) of the Israelite remnant who will follow the Lord where ever He directs them. Some of national Israel will accept their message (those that will flee from "Judea" and those who will still reside in the nations at the time); and some of the gentiles of the nations will believe their message ..... not many.

Daniel 12 has the time frame for the period. 1,260 days + 1,260 days + 30 days + 45 days. The 7 vials of the Lord's destruction of the beast and followers will take place in 30 days and the Lord's gathering of the mortal survivors of the tribulation (first the elect of national Israel .... and then the sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers) of the nations)) period will take place in the next 45 days on the earth at His visible apperance. These gatherings are not resurrections and those who are believers will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth.

The Lord's intervention at Armageddon (the immortal Body of Christ will come with Him) will be for the purpose of defeating satan, his angelic agents, and followers. He will then restore the kingdom to national Israel and rule the world from Jerusalem Himself. He will win the battle for Israel. There are also indications that the believing mortal remnant of national Israel will be involved in the war with the Lord at the vangard. The O.T. visions have this picture. They are the ones who will receive His earthly kingdom after the destruction of satan and company. He is an Israelite by His humanity, He is the King of Israel, and the remnant's Messiah.

I simply asked, "Why is there no mention of a pre trib rapture.
I notice that you did not give a text.

Duncdrewnoah did.
Revelation 3:10
10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The problem here is that this does not prove a rapture.
God does not have to take us out of the world in order to protect us from the wrath.
In fact, Jesus used the very same word to say;
John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
That makes it difficult to use Revelation 3:10, with the very same word, that is translated "keep" to mean that it has to be a rapture taking us out.
And think about it, The rapture is the greatest event in the history of the church since the resurrection.
Surely it deserves a greater place than that verse in the Last great Bible Book written to the church.

As for John be taken up to heaven in the spirit...
Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. (Re 17:3).

What happened here? Did John get unraptured to the desert?
The plain truth is there is no mention of a pre trib rapture in Revelation.

Got to catch a plane. cant write any more.
I know that breaks Stephen's heart
3am




That isnt what this text says.

Stephen says:



The sixth seal is exactly what Jesus describes in Matthew as his return.

3AM continues to miss the mark.

Your question about the Lord's "harpazo" action (which you call a pre-trib "rapture" ..... "rapture" is not a valid description and the word is not contained in the text) was ..... why it is not revealed in the text of the opening of the scroll. I answered you question and you know it. The subject of the timing of the immortalization of the Body of Christ is a totally different matter .... you also know this as well. You seem to be missing the understanding of Revelation 14 which is quite clear to many, and my opinion of your ilk here is that you do not understand because of your refusal to recognize EGW's rendering which is a total corruption of the passage just like all of the other stuff put forth by this false prophet. I have to tell it like it is. Until you are able and willing to consider sound proof-text interpretation of the scriptures I will not waste time answering your loaded questions. In addition, your lack of understanding about John's experience in the first century is obvious. Your questioning about his transport related to his desert view is absurd. I believe you know this and your motivation is a debating tactic directed for the purpose of argumentation. I am aware of the SDA's debate training progams. You just created your own contradiction here ..... and the problem is that you do not care just as long as you think you can win an arguement. Same old junk. Obvious to me that you are stuck in false theology and you make this your problem. Game over.

SB,

Actually the 6th seal is a preview and description of human attitude and behavior toward the Lord's wrath and judgments. This condition will prevail during the entire 7 year tribulation and it will be held by most humans ..... they will not repent, turn, and believe.

Maybe for you but not me. The game is not a game. And it wont be over till the Lord comes. I will keep pointing people to Jesus.
Perhaps if I stick around long enough I will learn how you can read peoples minds, judge their inner motives and even know if they are saved or lost. That is quite a gift you have.
3am

You expose your self by your cynical debating tactics. This is why the game is over. I do not have to be able to read your mind ..... your behavior is quite enough.

So- if the "rapture" is Pre 7 year period then-

1. SAtan is an idiot-Him coming on the scene after this will lead millions of HEATHEN, those who he already has in his "back pocket" astray.
2. The people "left behind" are even bigger idiots, for most have heard of the rapture, and follow the antichrist anyway?
3. Satan would not be able to decieve anyone, for all would know it was him!

A pre-tribulation rapture theory just doesn't fit anywhere, for any reason. Who is Satan out to decieve in the end time? Why did Jesus, many multiple times warn believers to be ye not decieved at the end of the age? Why would he warn us of this, if we will all be gone during this time? Is Jesus "pulling our leg"? That is what a pre-tribulation rapture theory wants us to believe!!

Joshleet
Here is another reason it doesn't make sense.

2 Thessalonians 1
Paul first describes the current persecution of the church and then reassures them that God will make it right by paying back those who are persecuting his church and giving relief to the church.
“God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:6,7).
Notice that God will do two things, he will payback the wicked and give relief to the church, both at the same time. Next comes the answer to a key question. When will God make it right? When will he payback the wicked and give relief to the church?
“This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with His angels (v7).” Don’t miss the fact that when he comes to give relief to the church, he also punishes the wicked, those who do not obey the Gospel, with “everlasting destruction.”
And again to emphasize the point he already made, he repeats when it happens.
“They will be punished with everlasting destruction… On the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you (v9, 10).
Paul is clear that the church gets relief when the Lord Jesus is revealed (apocalypsis) in blazing fire with powerful angels (v7). He even uses the Greek word “Apocalypsis” which dispensationalists claim is the glorious return that takes place after the tribulation. That creates a problem for a pre-tribulation rapture. The wicked are punished on the day Christ comes for the church. The problem here is if rapture occurred 7 years before the apocalypsis (or Great Revelation) of Jesus, the church would not receive relief until the apocalypsis. That would mean that the church would suffer in heaven while the tribulation is unfolding on earth. The plain reading of the text is that the apocalypsis takes place when Jesus comes for the church to bring relief to the church. That would be at the rapture, not seven years later.

Paul explicitly says that both the wicked and the church receive their just due, on the same day. This poses another problem for dispensationalism. The church is glorified in Jesus when he comes to get us. This would have to be the rapture. But on that day, the wicked are destroyed with everlasting destruction. So how can there be a tribulation after the rapture if the wicked are destroyed? How can a team of 144000 Jews be converted to Christ and preach the Gospel to those left behind, when all of the wicked (those who rejected the gospel) are destroyed on the day he comes to be glorified in his church?
3AM

pretrib rapture is a construction

2000 years long million of christians died

as an example the armenier, millions killed no escape

during ww2 thousends of true christians killed no escape

rom thousends of christians killes no escape

a killed christians is a killed christian

millions of christian didn't escaped

so why should at the end some christians escape?

the bride must escape- millions beeing from the bride didn't escaped

so why should the bride now escape

imagine: christians to paul: we have missed the day of the lord, we have missed the rapture, we never will see our brothers and sister that died before, paul: no, first the antichrist must be revealed

imagine: millions of christians didn't escaped, and then at the end a lot will escape, what will the christians that didn't escaped think? we were not good enough to escape?

so there is one rapture when JC returns, not for 7 years invisible, just when HE returns

(1Cor.15:22) For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ’s, at his coming. Notice that after Christ’s resurrection, there is only one more resurrection of the righteous dead, “they that are Christ’s at his coming”. Of course, this is only speaking of permanent resurrections in the heavenly body. Since there is only one more resurrection and rapture, they must be at the very “end” or everybody who gets saved cannot be resurrected. (24) Then [cometh] the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. Notice that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death. The resurrection and rapture, which abolish death, are at the end when God will have abolished all rebellious rule over and in His people, not seven years before the end when the influence of the beast, the harlot, sin, and the world system still have some hold on them. Solomon said that every man is a beast (Eccl.3:18,19), meaning all men are ruled by a carnal nature. The mark of the beast just identifies members of that corporate body. Of course, mature sons of God are ruled by a mind renewed with the Word of God. “Harlot” identifies those who receive a seed or word that is not from Christ, their husband. Many of God’s people are pledging allegiance to the world system rather than submiting to the Word. At this time, sadly, most of God’s people fall into these categories. Therefore the resurrection and the rapture, which abolish death, must be last, after the beast, harlot, and the world system no longer rule God’s people. (Acts 2:34)…The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, (35) Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet. The Lord will not come until His enemies are under His feet and His elect are completely restored. (3:20) [A]nd that he may send the Christ who hath been appointed for you, [even] Jesus: (21) whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all (of God’s elect) things (“things” is not in the Greek)…. When all are restored through the tribulation, the Lord comes.

Here is that one resurrection again. (Rev.20:4)…[I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5)…This is the first resurrection. Notice that the saints who were beheaded because they would not take the mark of the beast are in the first resurrection. It was called first by John looking into the future from 96 A.D. after Jesus’ resurrection. This tells us that there is no resurrection and rapture before the tribulation mark of the beast. The second resurrection, called the second death in verse six, is after a thousand years and is for the wicked. Since the first resurrection is also the only resurrection of the righteous, it must be at the end of the tribulation. If it was at the beginning, the great multitude that is purified during the great tribulation could not be resurrected. (Rev.7:9) After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb…. (14)….And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Notice that the resurrection and rapture are after the great tribulation, which most agree is the last 3-1/2 years.

Did the walls of Jericho fall on the First day or the Seventh day?

Did they fall after the first trump or the LAST trump?

With a long trump blast, a great shout and the people WENT UP!!!! On the 7th day...the 7th time...history will repeat and scriptural patterns are there for us to read and learn from.

Did God saved Meshach, Shadrach and Abednego FROM the 7 times heated furnace OR did He go THROUGH it WITH them? Again, this pattern will repeat and those who refuse to bow to the image will be forced to go through a 7 times heated season of persecution/tribulation. Again, a more sure word of prophecy....history.

We hear from many that the Lord will come “as a thief in the night” in a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. After the judgments on Egypt as a type of the world, Israel was freed to leave at midnight (Ex.12:29-31), which is also when the wise virgins left (Mt.25:6). Then, as in Noah’s day of the Lord, the Egyptians were killed by a flood at the Red Sea. Midnight for an overwhelmingly Gentile Church is the end of one day and the beginning of a new day, the day of the Lord, when the world is destroyed. Let us see when the thief comes. (1Thes.4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; (17) then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (5:1) But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you. (2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. We see here that the Lord’s coming in the day of the Lord is as a “thief” but when is that? (2Pet.3:10) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Peter tells us plainly that the thief comes not at the beginning of the tribulation but when the earth is burned up in the last day of the Lord! (11) Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in [all] holy living and godliness, (12) looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? We are not told to look for a secret pre-tribulation rapture but to live holy in order to escape the wrath of God when heaven and earth will be destroyed. (13) But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Noah lived a holy life, went through the seven day/years and escaped in the beginning of the wrath, and came down on a new earth, for the first earth was destroyed by the flood.

Excellent posts Brother John, both of them.
I really like the way you clarified the first resurrection with 1 Cor 15. Excellent!
It is so clear that you wonder why everyone can't see it.
So many are falling for the Novel, "Left Behind Approach." It is sad.

Here is an additional thought on the Harlot.
I always like to compare the texts with other parts os Scripture that talk about the same thing To let the Bible sort of interpret itself. I found this one.
Judges 2:17 Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. Unlike their fathers, they quickly turned from the way in which their fathers had walked, the way of obedience to the LORD's commands.
Here, spiritual harlotry is defined by turning away from obeying God.

Couple that with Paul's statement in Romans 6:16;
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Those who follow God, the Creator, show their allegiance to Him by trusting Him enough to obey Him. While those who follow the beast (creature as opposed to the Creator) obey the beast. We choose which kingdom we want to live in by the set of laws we follow. God's kingdom and His laws, or the Beast's kingdom and His laws.

Revelation 12:17 shows the dragon, Satan, attacking those who would be obedient to God's commands and cling to the Gospel. The whole battle involves Choosing who we will serve, God or Satan, and demonstrating our choice by obeying one or the other, God or the Beast.
Follow the Lamb
3am

"Revelation 12:17 shows the dragon, Satan, attacking those who would be obedient to God's commands and cling to the Gospel. The whole battle involves Choosing who we will serve, God or Satan, and demonstrating our choice by obeying one or the other, God or the Beast."

The believer has already made this decision. You are truly a tribulation seeker. Make the decision to serve the Lord today and you will be kept from the Lord's day of wrath against unbelief (Unless you die before the time and then you will be in real trouble ..... you will awake for the burning of tares just after the Lord's millennial reign). If not, you will most likely be deceived by satan's beast and will end up present for the tare burning anyway .... or beheaded if you make your decision to serve the Lord at the time. Some live in a religion of fantisy and this will up end you. Good luck.

By grace are we saved through faith and not of works lest any should boast. One must believe that the Lord is willing and able to save them ..... now..... if not ..... possible loss of head and definitely tare burning time. If you do not take the Lord at His word and accept His promises, He will not save you.

here is another problem:
Revelation 13 Describes the Beast (and the false prophet) attempting to force or deceive the world into worshiping Him.

Revelation 14 Contains the three angels warning the world against worshiping the beast and those who do will receive the wrath of God. They are called to respond to the Gospel, worship the Creator and come out of Babylon. There is still time for them to believe the Gospel and be saved before the final pouring out of the cup of God's wrath.

But there is a switch in Revelation 15.
5 After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues.... 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Here is the problem:
The books of Hebrews and Revelation both show, as you so eloquently pointed out, that Jesus is our High Priest ministering in the temple in Heaven.
We can approach His throne of Grace boldly. Heb 4:14-16
Salvation can only be found by those who enter the temple (by faith of course) and receive the Grace that Christ so mercifuly pours out to those who confess their sins and repent of them.
There is no salvation apart from Christ administering the benefits of His perfect atonement on the cross, from His temple in heaven.
Since no one can enter the temple until the plagues have been poured out, how can anyone be saved during the tribulation?
The plagues are poured out only on those who worship the beast and take his mark.
They are not poured out on those who are faithful to God and have his seal on their foreheads.

The three angels messages have been preached to the entire world.
Everyone has the opportunity to repent.
Those who refuse, will worship the beast.
The temple is closed.
No one can be saved or lost any more. Human probation has come to the end.
The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked.
They curse the name of God.
Then comes Armageddon, where Christ comes to destroy the wicked and deliver His Bride.

That is just one more reason why the 144000 are not going out saving people during the great tribulation.The 144000 follow the Lamb wherever He goes. That sounds like a definition of a Christian! We need to follow the Lamb.
3am

Ellen G. White theology .... all of it. Check out her history on the internet. Some do follow false prohphets who cannot be trusted for sound doctrine and correct interpretation of the scriptures.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God is finished as the 7th angel sounds...this is BEFORE the bowl judgments are poured out...the wrath of God. The seals/trumps are NOT the wrath but are the tribulation which is designed to bring the Body of Christ to maturity and martyrdom.

I agree 3am, no one will be saved after the 7th trump (last trump) sounds and the dead in Christ rise. This is when the mystery of God is finished. (Rapture/Harpazo) After this, the sun and moon are darkened and the Day of the Lord begins. This is His wrath poured out on the wicked. The saved will be in Heaven during this time...as Isaiah says, "the day of His vengeance, the YEAR of His redeemed".

Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

The "Day of the Lord" is actually a YEAR JUST AS Noah was in the ark for 1 year with the wicked under his feet, so shall WE be a year in Heaven with the wicked under OUR feet..as Malachi says...

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Noah KNEW 7 days before the wrath came...the ark was LIFTED UP as the wrath of God poured down...the SAME thing will happen again according to pattern/history.

Gen 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth.

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The 7th trumpet will begin to sound at the onset of this specified time frame (30 days) just at the end of the second 1,260 days in which the following will happen: The Lord will destroy (7 vials) the kingdom of satan's beast and followers and take back the earth from human rule for His own. Then the world will know the "mystery"(of just who the Lord is) ..... but not until then. He will then reign over an earthly kingdom of mortals for 1,000 years. The resurrections scheduled for the end of the second 1,260 days are "token" resurrections and are for the Lord's two prophets and the martyrs who will become believers during the tribulation period. There is no record of the Lord's "harpazo" action for the Body of Christ (both of the dead and the living) included in the context of the 7th trumpet (3rd woe).

If all believers are resurrected at the end of the second 1,260 days + 30 days, there woud be no mortal believers to enter the Lord's millennial kingdom. The Body of Christ will be resurrected/translated as Paul describes, but before the Lord's hour of trial begins ..... the 7 years of tribulation. This period will start with the first 6 trumpets as recorded beginning in chapter 8 and not before. The sealing of the 144,000 mortal Israelites (these are not gentile believers) on the earth and John's observation of the 24 elders and great multitude already around the throne in heaven are both recorded before the Lord's wrath and judgments begin on the earth in chapter 8. Judgment will not fall as stated until these two groupings of humans have been protected. [Revelation 7:3] The 144,000 mortal Israelites will be sealed for protection on the earth and the Body of Christ will be immortal and in heaven.

The error of some is to mix the Body of Christ with those who will become believers and martyred during the tribulation period, and to mix national Israel with the Body of Christ. This theology is not only deceptive, but against clear scriptural teaching. Those who do this and follow this doctrine are on the road to the tribulation period. Tribulation seekers. One needs to look under the covers of this teaching for the deception that includes the refutation of the Lord's intentions and promises. There are reasons for this refutation and they are hidden and attached to the teaching of the tribulation seeker. One needs to question why the refutation against the Lord's promise to keep living believers from His wrath and judgment of His hour of trial? Look under the covers for the answer [Revelation 3:10-11]. Don't let the devil steel your crown. He can do this if you let him and he would rather get you during the tribulation period when he comes to the earth ..... it will be much easier for him to lead you into deception and disbelief at the time of his presence ..... and then he will destroy you in one way or another. You will either follow him, get beheaded for your faith if you turn to the Lord, or he will kill you in unbelief and you will be lost forever.

Of course the believer has already made this decision.
But it is a continuing on going choice.
We "die daily" as Paul said.
The point is that Satan attacks those whom have already in the past and are in the present, if they are still alive, because they obey God.
Their faith is tried and tested during the time of the Beast, but the true believers stay firm and would rather die than betray God.
3am

(1Thes.5:9) For God appointed us not unto wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. The Passover was a type of this forty-day preservation in the spiritual ark. The Passover and the Ark are both the last judgment before the saints leave Egypt as a type of the world. “During that last forty days there will be a corporate, Psalm 91, Passover of the curse for the saints.”


Everything will happen according to type. (1Cor.10:11) Now these things happened unto them (Israel) by way of example (Greek: figure or type); and they were written for our admonition (Christians), upon whom the ends of the ages are come. God will finish His born-again creation on this morning of the seventh millennial day as He did with the natural creation. (Gen.2:2) And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made…. This morning of the seventh millennium is the seventh day for “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2Pet.3:8). A morning of a thousand-year day could be years instead of hours. What we will now prove is that early at the dawning of the seventh millennium, after seven years of tribulation, at the seventh or last trump, with a great shout, the saints will enter the New Jerusalem. For proof of this consider these promises and the type that follows.

As we have seen, “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout” (1Thes.4:16), and “we shall all be changed…at the last trump” (1Cor.15:51,52). Notice that “all” will be changed at the “shout” of the “last trump”. In an attempt to make a pre-tribulation rapture fit, some have adopted the oxymoron that there are two last trumps. However, in Revelation 10:7 the only last trump, which is the seventh, is the time in which “is finished the mystery of God”. (Rev.11:15) And the seventh angel sounded (last trump); and there followed great voices in heaven (saints), and they said, The kingdom of the world is become [the kingdom] of our Lord…. (16) And the four and twenty elders…worshipped God, saying…thou hast taken thy great power, and didst reign. (18) And the nations were wroth (tribulation), and thy wrath came (day of the Lord or flood), and the time of the dead to be judged (resurrection), and [the time] to give their reward to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to them that fear thy name, the small and the great; and to destroy them that destroy the earth. Notice that the last trump is the time when the Lord takes personal possession of the world, His saints are brought to heaven and given their reward, and the wrath of God is poured out on the nations who are left. Therefore, the last trump rapture is at the end of the tribulation before the flood of God’s vengeance, the day of the Lord! (Isa.34:8) For the Lord hath a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. The apostate (fallen away) Christians will not escape this wrath any more than the apostate Jews escaped the wrath in 70 A.D., when the true people of God fled to the mountains, a type of the rapture. The unripe figs will be cast down at this time (Rev.6:13) and the lukewarm spewed out of the body of Christ (Rev.3:16) in order to partake of God’s wrath.

Let’s see more proof of when this last trump shout comes. Look at a type, which is fulfilled on the morning of the “seventh day”, representing the morning of the seventh thousand-year day, which is where we are now. Joshua, which is Hebrew for Jesus, brought the saints up from the wilderness, representing the end of the tribulation. Here they came to the city of Jericho. Like heaven, it was an impenetrable fortress for mere man to enter. This was the first city of the Promised Land, representing the New Jerusalem. Here, they compassed the city “seven times”. “Times” are used for years of tribulation in Revelation 12:14,6. “[A] time (one year), and times (two years), and half a time (half year)” were “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” or 3-1/2 years. While compassing the city “seven times” they blew “seven trumpets”, representing the seven trumps of the seven years of tribulation. Then the saints gave a “great shout” and the wall separating them from the New Jerusalem fell. The falling of the wall represents the falling of the flesh as the saints receive their new bodies to “go up” into their Promised Land. Here it is: (Josh.6:4) And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams’ horns before the ark (before the coming of the Lord): and the seventh day (seventh millennium) ye shall compass the city seven times (seven-year tribulation), and the priests shall blow the trumpets (seven trumpets of tribulation). (5) And it shall be, that, when they make a long blast with the ram’s horn (the last trump), and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall go up every man straight before him (saints raptured around the world). From clear Biblical chronology we have come to the beginning of the seventh, thousand-year day from Adam. According to this type we are now on the threshold of the seven years and seven trumpets of tribulation before entering the New Jerusalem with a great shout.

Here it is again. (15) And it came to pass on the seventh day (seventh millennium), that they rose early at the dawning of the day (that is where we are now!), and compassed the city after the same manner seven times: only on that day they compassed the city seven times (the tribulation). (16) And it came to pass at the seventh time (end of tribulation), when the priests blew the (seven) trumpets, Joshua (Hebrew: “Jesus”) said unto the people, Shout; for the Lord hath given you the city. From this you can clearly see that the rapture will come early at the dawning of the seventh millennium, after seven years of tribulation, at the seventh or last trump, with a great shout, as the saints enter the New Jerusalem.

The Feast of Trumpets has long been thought to be the time of Jesus’ return for His saints even by the pre-tribulation rapture multitudes. (Lev.23:24) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, shall be a solemn rest (Sabbath) unto you, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation (Hebrew: “rehearsal”). This feast is a rehearsal for the rapture/resurrection, which also happens after the “blowing of (seven) trumpets” during the previous seven years. It is fulfilled on a Sabbath, which represents the seventh, thousand-year Sabbath day. It is also fulfilled on the first day of the seventh month, which at least says that spiritually it will be very early on the seventh thousand-year day. However the rapture/resurrection could also physically happen on the first day of the seventh Hebrew month, Tishri, which is our September/October. This feast is celebrated with joy and solemnity. During the daily prayer service a ram’s horn or shofar is sounded, representing the last trump. Jewish tradition holds that Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets) celebrates the anniversary of the seven days of the creation of the world, as a day when “God takes stock of all of His creation”. Likewise, on that anniversary God will finish His born-again creation by taking the saints early on the morning of the seventh thousand-year day. Rosh Hashanah means “head of the year” in Hebrew. The Jews believe that God’s judgment on this day determines the course of the coming year. This turns out to be true spiritually for the rapture/resurrection is a judgment that determines who will go through that year called the day of the Lord.

The last trumpet, the 7th, is the 3rd woe (judgment of the beast and followers and the taking of his kingdom - the earthly kingdom will then be restored to national Israel ..... not the Body of Christ who will already be immortalized, inhabiting the universe with access to the earth, and ruling with the Lord). There are no resurrestions associated or described with this trumpet in the related immediate context of the passages describing it. Your are arbitrarly placing the resurrection/translation of the Body of Christ there. There would be no purpose for the Lord's "harpazo" action if it is to happen when the Lord is back and on the earth at the end of the second 1,260 days. "Caught up" means to snatch away, with force. This is the purpose and the promise noted in Revelation 3:10-11 and Revelation 18:4. Deny it if you like, but it is true never the less. You have selected the wrong trumpet, the wrong time frame, and the wrong purpose for your insertion. The last trump that Paul refers to is the last for the Body of Christ and must be defined as such by the context of the passage describing the Lord's "harpazo" action. Linking this last trump with the trumpet of the 3rd woe in Revelation is totally arbitrary, speculative, and incorrect.

I would also tell you that the "saints" will not enter the "new" Jerusalem at the end of the tribulation period. Your timing is again wrong. The Lord will rule a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1,000 years just after. Only then will He bring the "new" Jerusalem which will exist on a new earth in a new universe. One must follow the sequence of the events of Revelation 20, 21, and 22. I do not buy the SDA theory presented by EGW of a desolate earth with satan on it in place of a 1,000 year period of the Lord's millennial rule. Scads of scripture refute this view. Talk about perverted understanding ..... this one takes the cake. The earth is not the abyss. It is a known fact that EGW did not understand the scriptures, attempted to make her church the last and only, she even shut the door on salvation, copied passages from other writers and claimed owner ship adding them to her "Great Controversy" fabrication, invented the investigative judgment process when William Miller's predictions of the second coming turned out to be false, and made many false predictions as a self proclaimed prophet her self. She also claimed that the Lord was finished with a future national Israel. Why would anyone rely upon her theology as a basis for their own? I happen to know why ...... one should think about what it is. The historical SDA organization does this even to this very day.

After seven days of the marriage feast, God’s people will go to the groom’s home. Jacob served seven years for each of his wives and he had a marriage feast of seven days for each of them (Gen.29:18-28). This is a parallel revelation. These seven days represent the last seven years or the seventieth week of Daniel, the tribulation. Samson kept a seven-day marriage feast for his betrothed but left without taking her on the seventh day so she was given to another man (Jdg.14:12-15:2). Jesus will feast with His bride in spirit for seven day/years after which they are escorted by the virgins to the groom’s home where she will legally be His. This Hebrew custom is shown in The Zondervan Pictoral Encyclopedia of the Bible, 1976, page 97 under “Marriage”. My notes are in parentheses.

The bridegroom was the king for a week (seven day/year wedding feast). During the whole week their majesties wore their festal clothes, did not work, and merely looked on at the games – except that now and then the queen joined in a dance. Accompanied by his friends (John the Baptist was a friend of the bridegroom in John 3:29) with tambourines and a band they went to the bride’s house (which is obviously on earth) where the wedding ceremonies were to start. The bride richly dressed, adorned with jewels (Ps.45:14,15), usually wore a veil (meaning submission in 1Cor.11:5-13), which she took off only in the bridal chamber. Escorted by her companions (the virgins), the bride was led to the home of the bridegroom (heaven).

This is clear. After the seven day/years of the feast, representing the tribulation, on the eighth day, which is the day of circumcision when the flesh is cut off, the Groom, the bride, the friends of the Groom and the virgins; all leave dressed in their new bodies to the Groom’s home in heaven. It will be just as Moses and all Israel left Egypt together. Even the dead in Christ will join the procession. (1Cor.15:51) …We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump.

That the Lord takes His people after the seven day/years of the marriage feast is clearly proven by Scripture. As we have seen, a great multitude comes out of the great tribulation to the throne of God. (Rev.7:9)…[A] great multitude…out of every nation…standing before the throne and before the Lamb… (14)…These are they that come out of the great tribulation…. Only after “the great tribulation” this “great multitude” that is made up of all who attend the marriage announces that the bride is ready and the marriage is come. (Rev.19:1) After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying…. (7)…the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. (8) And it was given unto her that she should array herself in fine linen, bright [and] pure: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (9) And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they that are bidden to the marriage supper of the Lamb…. Notice that the marriage supper is in heaven after the seven-day feast.

Your timing is way off of the chart

The bible is correct. I don't use charts.....you must look at the patterns of history...any beginning prophecy students understands this. The stories in the OT prove that there is no pre-trib escapism. Sorry.

Escapeism? Really? I do not think so. Show me how the O.T. visions refute. Simple scriptures. Present them.

I've already posted these in MANY posts on this forum. Do your own research......it's a waste of time sharing with you.

Think about what your are saying with your resort to labeling the belief in the Lord's promise to keep living believers from His wrath of the tribulation period with "escapeism". Here is what you say. One who believes in this promise will end up being deceived by the beast during the tribulation when the Lord fails to make good on His promise (you would say He has not made it in the first place). I have heard your full story with regard to your cry of escapeism. Do you actually believe that one who knows the scriptures which describe the events and actions of the beast will be deceived into thinking that he is the Lord? You make a list of the actions taken by the beast and those taken by the Lord during the period and show me that they are the same. For example, will the Lord behead those who refuse to worship Him? Will He impose His mark? The answer is no. Will satan's beast? the answer is yes. These differences would not be missed by the "escapee" who understands the Bible. Would you? So what are you doing with this specific debate tactic and applying it to those who believe in the Lord's promise which you are so strongly against. You are either not logical in your thought process or you are trying to manipulate for the purpose of supporting your position ... or something far worse. Which is it?

I don't think the Beast is a counterfeit Christ....it's a global governmental system.

BJ,

The beast will not be a counterfit Christ as you state correctly ..... far from it. The descriptions of his behavior and actions as recorded in scripture are not even close to the Lord's.

I would suggest that you closely investigate the scriptures to ID this entity. He is not human and is not a government system .... but he will have one. And he is not the Pope or some slick politician from Europe. He is the beast from the abyss [Revelation 9:11, 17:8-14]. He will have a human manifestation which will make him a combination. His human part will be the little horn, king of the north recorded in Daniel who will first appear in the northern Middle East at the time of the end. He has ruled over ancient human empires of the Middle East for satan. Five of them. And he will come out of the abyss to dominate 2 more there at the time of the end.

A counterfeit is never perfect. Of course Satan's counterfeit religion is not perfect, after all he is Satan. Obviously a true believer would not be decieved by the beast. One who knows the Scripture could possibly be decieved. It is one thing the know the Scripture, even Satan knows the Scripture, but it is an entirely different thing to be a true believer. A true believer always trusts God enough to obey Him. Superficial believers do not obey him. Jesus made this crystal clear;
Mat 7: 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.....
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers [greek "anomia" meaning "lawless one."]!' These claim to be believers, but are not. Instead of "doing the will of the Father" they rely on miracles. It is significant that the false prophet works miracles to deceive many into worshiping the beast. The fact thy are deceived means they think they are worshiping someone else. Who else? The Lamb. Because the false prophet looks like a lamb (13:11).

Satan wants God's people to worship Him.
He knows no one claiming to be God's people would worship him is he said, I am Satan, Worship me. That is why Paul said he appears as an angel of light.
So he gives his authority to the beast, so that those who worship the beast also worship the dragon (Rev 13:4).
Practically the whole world worships him, except the true believers (v8).
How does he do it? he uses two weapons. Force and deception.
Force works on those who do not even claim to be believers but no true believer could be forced to worship the beast. Force is a clear distinction for true believers to recognize the counterfeit. A counterfeit is never perfect.
So the other more deadly weapon is deception.
You are right, no one claiming to be a true believer would ever take a 666 mark on their heads or hands. Satan is no dummy, he knows that.
So he counterfeits Christ and deceives the world into following him, when they believe they are following Christ. That is why the false prophet, has two horns like the lamb. He looks like the Lamb, but he speaks like the dragon. That is the reason we need to know the Lamb and his word.
The false prophet also performs miracles, to gain credibility.
Watch this.
Jesus was baptized and when he came out of the water, he Father anointed him with the Holy Spirit, giving Him His authority as the Messiah.
The Beast comes out of the water and the Dragon gives him his authority and power.

Christ's ministry lasts 3 1/2 years.
The beast was given authority for 3 1/2 years [42 months].

Christ was crucified on the cross.
The beast received a deadly wound.

Christ was raised up again.
The beast's deadly wound was healed.

Christ sent the Holy Spirit to perform miracles and gather the world into His church!
The beast sends the false prophet to perform miracles and gather the world into his church, a counterfeit system of worship.

The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are Satan's counterfeit of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are a counterfeit kingdom of God that is so deeptive, nearly the whole world is taken in.
The book of Revelation is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Rev 1:1
It reveals Christ and his kingdom.
Christ is the head of the church which is his body.
Revelation reveals the distinction between Jesus and his true follows and the counterfeit. Those who claim to believe but so not follow up with obeying God.
Dispensationalism is a cleverly designed ploy to deceive people into taking their eyes off of Jesus and focusing on to something else. Instead of focusing on Jesus and His beautiful character, they focus on plotting maps and charts of how the nations are going to line up for Armageddon. Armageddon is all about Jesus.

Follow the Lamb
3am

A counterfeit is never perfect. Of course Satan's counterfeit religion is not perfect, after all he is Satan. Obviously a true believer would not be decieved by the beast. One who knows the Scripture could possibly be decieved. It is one thing the know the Scripture, even Satan knows the Scripture, but it is an entirely different thing to be a true believer. A true believer always trusts God enough to obey Him. Superficial believers do not obey him. Jesus made this crystal clear;
Mat 7: 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.....
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers [greek "anomia" meaning "lawless one."]!' These claim to be believers, but are not. Instead of "doing the will of the Father" they rely on miracles. It is significant that the false prophet works miracles to deceive many into worshiping the beast. The fact thy are deceived means they think they are worshiping someone else. Who else? The Lamb. Because the false prophet looks like a lamb (13:11).

Satan wants God's people to worship Him.
He knows no one claiming to be God's people would worship him is he said, I am Satan, Worship me. That is why Paul said he appears as an angel of light.
So he gives his authority to the beast, so that those who worship the beast also worship the dragon (Rev 13:4).
Practically the whole world worships him, except the true believers (v8).
How does he do it? he uses two weapons. Force and deception.
Force works on those who do not even claim to be believers but no true believer could be forced to worship the beast. Force is a clear distinction for true believers to recognize the counterfeit. A counterfeit is never perfect.
So the other more deadly weapon is deception.
You are right, no one claiming to be a true believer would ever take a 666 mark on their heads or hands. Satan is no dummy, he knows that.
So he counterfeits Christ and deceives the world into following him, when they believe they are following Christ. That is why the false prophet, has two horns like the lamb. He looks like the Lamb, but he speaks like the dragon. That is the reason we need to know the Lamb and his word.
The false prophet also performs miracles, to gain credibility.
Watch this.
Jesus was baptized and when he came out of the water, he Father anointed him with the Holy Spirit, giving Him His authority as the Messiah.
The Beast comes out of the water and the Dragon gives him his authority and power.

Christ's ministry lasts 3 1/2 years.
The beast was given authority for 3 1/2 years [42 months].

Christ was crucified on the cross.
The beast received a deadly wound.

Christ was raised up again.
The beast's deadly wound was healed.

Christ sent the Holy Spirit to perform miracles and gather the world into His church!
The beast sends the false prophet to perform miracles and gather the world into his church, a counterfeit system of worship.

The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are Satan's counterfeit of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are a counterfeit kingdom of God that is so deeptive, nearly the whole world is taken in.
The book of Revelation is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ." Rev 1:1
It reveals Christ and his kingdom.
Christ is the head of the church which is his body.
Revelation reveals the distinction between Jesus and his true follows and the counterfeit. Those who claim to believe but so not follow up with obeying God.
Dispensationalism is a cleverly designed ploy to deceive people into taking their eyes off of Jesus and focusing on to something else. Instead of focusing on Jesus and His beautiful character, they focus on plotting maps and charts of how the nations are going to line up for Armageddon. Armageddon is all about Jesus.

Follow the Lamb
3am

Wow- 3am go read my new thread, the Messiah complex. Talk about the holy Spirit Confirming a message. I put that out the very same time you put the revealing of Satans "Messiah complex" Thank you Lord!!!!

3 Am you are 1000% right on. The majority of beievers today haven't yet discerned that the book of Revelation reveals the rise, reign and fall of the false Messiah, and his false 1000 year kingdom, prior to the return of the real Messsiah. This is going to be the most deceptive time the world will ever go through!!

I agree with those who say the AC is a "Body", its corporate. Its not just one guy (that is the letter)

C

"I agree with those who say the AC is a "Body", its corporate. Its not just one guy (that is the letter)"

The corporate "kingdom now" song is "antichrist" in its own ilk. Full of deceptions like this one. I have to say this: The teachings of the leaders of these cults are anti-Biblical as well and are washed in total deception. These are the scoffers and false teachers of the last days as presented in scripture. If you want to present the likes you need to set up your post for doing so ..... stop trailing other posts for the purpose of planting your bad seed. Do not hide your basis and beliefs for the extra-Biblical Eels "corporate" theology. Present them in the open in full context instead of sniping and piggy-backing on others. Let us hear all of it. Post it.

There are two beasts.


Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2.And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion; and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


That first beast rises from the sea (people, nations), possible the seven continents (7 heads) controlled by political authority (10 crowns.) This is a political beast, a one-world system that gets it's power from Satan.


Revelation 13:11.And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

14.And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


This second beast is a religious beast....Satan in the role of anti-christ (instead-of-christ.) His power (two horns) is that he looks like the Lamb but he is the dragon. All those that haven't been taught that he comes first, pretending to be Christ, will be taken by his deception. They will take the mark of the beast.


That time will be the tribulation of Satan. It does not last 7 years, or 3 1/2 years, but 5 months. At it's end Christ arrives....His 2nd Advent, and all are changed into our spiritual bodies. The millennium begins.


.........Whirlwind

The beast will rule for 42 months, the last 1,260 days of the 70th week decreed for national Israel. But before that he must conquer his territory and eliminate his opposition from other nations ..... these things will take place in the first 1,260 days of the 70th week. The Lord's "hour" of trial (His judgment of an unbelieving world) will last for 2,520 days ..... and then He will destroy the beast's kingdom in the next 30 days. The beast is a fallen angelic who will be released from the abyss and he will possess the little horn, human king of the north. It is this human king who will rise out of the "sea" (human inhabitants) of his followers ..... and their core habitation will be in the Middle East surrounding Israel. [Daniel 8:9, 8:23, 11:36] [Revelation 9:11, 13:1, 17:8]

Oh dear, seven years of WRATH.

God does not need seven years for His wrath. It will be much shorter than that.

Seven years TRIBULATION, .......YES.

People, you must realise that God did not run out of words when He described this period. He , when He wrote the Bible, took care with every word in there. So tribulation is tribulation and wrath is wrath.

Be thankful its not SEVEN years of wrath ahead of us. No wonder Stephen wants out !

C

I wish Stephen would prove with scripture that the seal and trump judgments are designated "wrath". It's a false teaching used to try and justify his unbiblical Pre-trib Rapture scenario. We are NOT appointed unto wrath. So, he makes ALL the 7 years wrath when the bible does not teach this. Here is the proof:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth forever and ever.

No where in scripture are the seals and trumps called "wrath" as the Bowls are. God specifically designated the 7 golden vials as His Wrath.

I sure would hate to twist the scriptures to fit a pet doctrine like this.

The Tribulation is for the Saints.
The Wrath is for the wicked.

Let the reader use discernment.

The problem is that IF he admits to seeing this, he must also admit to being wrong about the rapture.
But, its difficult admitting you are wrong and people will keep on and on literally blinding their eyes to some scriptures, because it scares them. It exposes the truth.
I have been a long time on the forum and John 16 is one such chapter. Not ONCE have I heard an explanation on it from any of the pretrib rapture crowd. It is just too scary too look at for them.
They cannot cope with that scripture.

Oh and the other one that they do not answer is:Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.



Its like kryptonite to Superman

C

I have read through this thread (up to this point) and i don't see "the day of the Lord" addressed in any of your assertions. Maybe I missed it, but let me make an assumption that you believe the 70th week to be the day of the Lord?

If so, let me show you why that is quite impossible:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

These cosmic signs are sandwiched between the day of the Lord, and the end of the tribulation.

Let me give you some scripture to help you see what is and is not the wrath of God, because as you would probably rightly agree, the day of the Lord IS the day of his wrath.

Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.

As you can see, the day of the Lord does not fit the criteria of the 70th week. Surely, the worship of the anti-christ cannot said to be exalting the Lord alone? NO, the day of the Lord cannot be any part of the 70th week.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD comethor it is nigh at hand;

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

The word here is "bow" (Strongs #935). In all three of these references, the battle of armageddon is described. This implies that it is the battle of armageddon that "kicks off" the day of the Lord.

Joe 3:9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
Joe 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruning hooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and [c]come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. [/c]
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

It is clear that the gathering of the armies for the battle of armageddon, toward the end of the tribulation, is BEFORE the cosmic signs.

The NT says "the Day of the Lord cometh" as a theif in the night (1 Thess. 5:1,2 & 2 Peter 3:10). In both cases the immediate destruction of the wicked occurs. Paul says "sudden destruction" overtakes the wicked, and Peter says the land will be devoured by fire along with the scoffers.

There is allot more evidence, but thats enough for one post.

The day of the Lord wrath cannot possibly be any part of the 70th week. It is after the tribulation and after the cosmic signs of the 6th seal.

The day of the Lord wrath is an important aspect of understanding the 70th week, the 7 seals, and the role of the Church in all of those things.

With that in view, lets look more at what the day of the Lord is, and more importantly, what it is not:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Vs 14-17 is clearly a reference to the end of the tribulation when the rapture occurs, and the battle of armageddon begins.

We know that the "day of God" is a reference to the "day of the Lord" because the only other place in scripture that it is used is in 2Peter 3:10 & 12 where the two terms are used interchangably:

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

All of this occurs at the end of the tribulation, just as Jesus tells us it will in Mtthew 24.

"I have read through this thread (up to this point) and i don't see "the day of the Lord" addressed in any of your assertions. Maybe I missed it, but let me make an assumption that you believe the 70th week to be the day of the Lord?"

You missed it "big" time ..... and I do not by your story at all. The Day of the Lord will begin with His wrath and judgments of the 70th week and then continue on including His 1,0000 year millennial kingdom on the earth and beyond. A very long "day" indeed. You would never to be able to convince me otherwise ..... it is solid scriptural truth.

Prove it.

C'mon, I proved my assertions, lets see your scriptural support.

Without that, your just blowing smoke here.



Show me the scripture that supports your assertion that the entire 70th week is (even a part of) the day of the Lord.

Let me save you some frustration....it doesn't exist. Much like direct scriptural support for the pre-trib rapture doesn't exist.

[edit to add] Let me just save you a little more work, and say that the assertion that the day of the Lord continues into the MK has some fair scriptural support, so I think we can agree there. But as for the 70th week, the scriptures I quoted make that simply impossible.