The Tribulation Seekers of the Last Days

When they shall say peace and safety sudden destruction will come upon them

They say where is the promise of His coming?

They deny these scriptural truths:

I will keep thee from the hour of trial
Come out of her my people
The Day of the Lord will not come until after the gathering to meet Him in the air
We are not appointed to the Lord’s Wrath
I will come at a time you think not
I will come as a thief in the night
We will be caught up to meet Him in the air
We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed
Those who believe and are ready will go in and the door will be shut
Around the throne are 24 elders
A great multitude which no man could number before the throne of God
He has redeemed us and made us kings and priests
These are those who have come out of (away) from great tribulation
Measure the temple in heaven and them that worship there
Those in heaven will rejoice but woe unto those who dwell on the earth for the devil has come
The beast will blaspheme those that dwell in heaven
People in heaven will rejoice over the destruction of the “great city”
The great multitude will be at the marriage supper
He will return with His saints to execute His judgment
The armies which are with Him in heaven will follow to execute judgment
He who believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live
He who believes in me and lives will never die


Those who seek the Lord’s hour of trial against unbelief will find it. The challenge is to locate these truths in scripture and apply them correctly. All are there. He is coming and the believer needs to be ready. There will be no signs or warnings. It is the tribulation seeker who believes and teaches others to do the same that is tribulation bound. Many are on this road today and the numbers are growing. In the last days will come those who will teach this false doctrine and even take it further to the extent of denying His coming at all.

I believe this.
1 Th 5:2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Looks like the wicked will be destroyed when Jesus comes like a thief in the night.
How can there be a tribulation for them, after Jesus comes for the church?


I believe this one too.
2Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? ...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you [church] to be? You [church] ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you [church] look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we [church] are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Looks to me like Peter expects all of the wicked to be destroyed when Jesus comes for the church. Dont see how they could be present for a great tribulation according to Peter.

QUOTE

I will keep thee from the hour of trial

I believe this Bible Truth also.
When Jesus promised to keep the church from the Hour of Trial, he did not say he would take the church out of the world. He simply said,I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth (Re 3:10).The Greek, tay-reh’-o ek, which is translated "keep" is also used in John 17:15 when jesus said,My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one (Jn 17:15).Jesus specifically defined tay-reh’-o ek as "not taking them out of the world." Rather, protecting us from the trial to come.God does not have to take us out of the world to protect us from the evil in the world. A good example of that would be God protecting the 3 Hebrew men in the middle of the fiery furnace (Dan 3). He did not prevent them from being thrown into the furnace. He protected them while they were in the flames. Jesus' promise to the church is to protect them through the (hour of trial) tribulation.This was already taught in Psalm 81 7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. 8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

QUOTE

Come out of her my people

I believe this Bible Truth.
Rev 18:4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people.
Obviously, the "her" is the harlot, Babylon.
Interestingly, God warns the church about spiritual adultry with a harlot, Jezebel.
In the OT Babylon was the enemy of the Nation of Israel.
However in the NT, Israel is the church, symbolized by Heavenly Jerusalem (Heb 12:22f) and a pure woman who is faithful to God's commandments (Rev 12:17). Therefore the harlot, Babylon is a corrupt church, unfaithful to God's commands. But God does have people in Babylon who are being led astray by false teachers. Just before the end, when Babylon is destroyed, He calls them to come out of her [b]my people. Jesus said the same thing when He was on earth;
John 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
So far I agree with all of your statements of Bible truth

Oops! I cant agree with this one.
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
This text says just the opposite.
The day of the Lord will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
Only after this will we be gathered to meet him.
I do agree with the text however, so I think I am safe, so far I am not a tribulation seeker. And I wont call you one either, even though you got it wrong.

I agree with this one.
I also agree with Jesus when he said;
In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer (John 16:33).
Must be a difference between being "appointed for the Lord's Wrath" and suffering tribulation.

No problem here. I agree.

Agree here too.
Already showed how Paul and Peter both taught that when Jesus comes like a thief in the night, he will also destroy the wicked. Therefore there can be no 7 year tribulation after he comes like a thief.
In fact, in Revelation 16:14 we find Jesus coming like a thief at the battle of Armageddon and in verse 15 he quotes the same message that he gave to the church of Laodicia.

I agree with all of these.

You supplied the word Away. Non of the translators do. While it is true, that "ek" is translated "away from" only one time out of over nine hundred uses of the word "ek." Even then, "away from" cannot be the opposite of the root meaning which according to Strongs Concordance is, "A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds, from, out of place, time, or cause)." Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible
If ek, denotes origin, then even if you wanted to translate it "away from" in this verse, it would still mean they have come away from the tribulation. The great tribulation is still the origin of their coming. You cant separate it from the word "come". This is far from meaning that He took them out of the world before the tribulation began. That would be a great injustice to the text.
So I agree with your statement, however I would not feel compelled to insert (away) even though it changes nothing concerning the meaning.

I agree with all of these too.

Whew! I guess I am not a tribulation seeker.
3am

Suggestions for the tribulation seeker:

Study on. Look closer.

"Beheading" is not "keeping" from ..... protecting ..... as the Lord has promised. Hide in a cave [Revelation 6:15-17] or loose your head [Revelation 20:4]. "Harpazo" first ..... tribulation next ..... some will turn during the period .... not many, be careful if your are going there. Peter's statement is compressed ..... much time will pass between thief and fire. "Come out of her" is a command and action ("harpazo") related to the destruction of MBG's "great city" (not the RCC) ..... not wishfull thinking on the Lord's part. There is a difference between the Lord's "harpazo" gathering and ..... the Day of the Lord (tribulation and millennium)and this will be the order ..... better read it again. There is a difference between the tribulations of this life and the Lord's wrath and judgments against unbelief ..... a "BIG" difference ..... if one not think so, seek the the tribulation period. The Thief does not come at the end of the tribulation, but before it to execute it ....... after harpazo ..... parenthetical comment in Revelation 16:15 ..... time lapses between Thief, end of tribulation, and end of millennium. The dead in Christ are part of the great multitude and they cannot experience the tribulation period ..... impossible, neither will the living, they are caught up together at the Lord's "harpazo" action ..... before the tribulation period ..... this is why they are already in heaven before the judgments start in chapter 8. "Out of" means just that .... not in, "out from" is an accepted definition of "ek".... check concordance.

That is the problem, you are only looking at your body as you being safe. Christians are kept, although sometimes the body must die. God will definitely KEEP those who trust in Him, although some might loose their heads. On the other hand, some will not.

Good post 3am, I was about to answer and then I saw you already did it perfectly.

C

As Jesus said (and I tend to agree!) "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you...." Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? WITHIN YOU! So when "The Lord Himslef 'down-steps' from Heaven with a mighty shout," WHERE WILL HE COME FROM? And WHERE will you go to?

"As Jesus said (and I tend to agree!) "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you...." Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? WITHIN YOU! So when "The Lord Himslef 'down-steps' from Heaven with a mighty shout," WHERE WILL HE COME FROM? And WHERE will you go to?"

"Heaven" is a state of existence ..... higher level ..... not up or down, or some far far away place. And it is the human spirit that elevates ..... not the physical body which dies and returns to the earth. The Lord is already present now ..... He is omnipresent ..... all of the time ..... every where. But He does not always intervene in human affairs .... but He is going to intervene at the time of the end for sure. So, He does not come from some distant place, but from the "dimension" of "heaven" ..... He can move in and out at will ..... the believer, once translated will be like Him in this manner and will have the same capacity. The believer will inhabit all of the Lord's dimensions in His entire creation including access to the earth, and will come and go at will. The believer, even though still in the physical body is a regenerated spirit (born again) that will live forever ..... this is why Jesus said: "the kingdom of heaven is within you". The believer's spirit exists as a member of the "kingdom" even in one's physical body .... but the "kingdom" is not visible to the world ...... yet. It is you who asked for the rebuttal by your demeanor, and now you have it.

"That is the problem, you are only looking at your body as you being safe"

Not true. The tribulation seekers (those who experience it) in the physical body will be subjected to the effects of the tribulation period for sure. The tribulation events would have no effect on the human spirit separated from the physical body at all. The whole purpose of the Lord's protection for the living believer in the physical body is to prevent them from suffering His wrath and judgments during His hour of trial.The believer is not appointed to these things. There would be no other purpose for the Lord's "harpazo" action. This He will do as promised. The spirits of the members of the Body of Christ (Church) will be immortalized (no physical body needed) and will join the Lord before He executes His wrath upon intransigent unbelieving physical humans.

He will also seal 144,000 mortal Israelites of national Israel who will operate on the earth during the tribulation period. They will still be in physical bodies, but will not be harmed by the effects of the tribulation because the Lord will seal them. The Lord's two prophets will have physical bodies and will also be protected during their service before they are killed. There will be no protection for the intransigent and the unbelieving ...... tribulation seekers. Those that do turn to the Lord during the period will be vulerable to physical harm and in most cases by beheading. Most of those that do not turn and repent during the period will be killed by the effects of the tribulation in unbelief and lost forever. Their numbers will amount to billions and their spirits will end up experiencing the second death ..... of the spirit. No recourse. Those martyred for their faith during the period will be resurrected to immortailty at the endof it. Some mortals will escape the tribulations by chance only, except for the 144,000 mortal Israelites, and the believing remnant part of national Israel, and they will be gathered by the Lord and separated into those that believe and those that do not. Those that are found to be believers will enter and re-populate His millennial kingdom on the earth.

Nice move !
Give a derogatory label to those who disagree with you and away you go. Its an old forum trick. It works on those who are not aware of it, because psychologically people tend to steer away from labels. So if you cannot win by truth: Label.

So in one move, you have labeled all who disagree with you as unbelievers.
Again, good move



C

Thank you for your professional insight regarding the listing of verses of scriptures that the tribulation seekers need to be aware of. I know you are one that does this and would suggest that you take notice. My intention is strictly to present information from the scriptures for serious students of the Bible. There is nothing to prove here, for the scriptures need no proving. I would say that it is you who is doing what you so diplomatically bestow up on others especially since your are not only a tribulation seeker (I know this), but a "super christian", like spiderman, or the bionic woman, who is preparing for perfection so that you can enter the tribulation and slay dragons. Since this is your track, you especially need the list so that you can take it with you on the tribulation bus. More power to ya !!! You will need it.

Whew ..... I have really tried to stay away from this one as I do not like conflict. Yet I just cannot be silenced. Let me start by saying that if I had my "druthers" I would much rather be out of here when all heck breaks loose. Matter of fact I use to be in this camp myself many years ago. So am I a "tribulation seeker"? I am not sure. Do I want to face persecution... tribulation.... or trials as a child of God? No I do not wish this.... yet Christ said that in this world we would suffer persection, tribulation and trials but we are to be of good cheer cause He has overcome the world. 3am I must say.... that everything that you posted is exactly what I would have said.... down to the scripture references. Yes the word states repeatedly that we will not experience the Wrath of God..... but Stephen is the Wrath of God and Tribulation the same? I would absolutely say that it is not the same. I would think that the majority of the "Tribulation" is Satan's wrath and not the Lord's. I am of the opinion that when it gets down to the business of God's Wrath.... that this is not a very long period of time...otherwise No One would be saved.

Just read Hebrews 11...... there you will find that some were miraclously saved .....some raised to life.... yet others were tortured.....killed. I submit that same will be during this period of time.

I do believe in a rapture Stephen ... just the timing of it is where I have to disagree with you. I believe it will occur before the wrath of God happen, sometime before the bowles are poured out. I pray that I am wrong and you are right..... cause I really would love to not have to deal with it all. Yet because I believe that we will have to endure this period of time does not mean that I am "Tribulation Seeker" .... rather just a child of God that will have to suffer tribulation.

Love ya brother,
Val
Messiahiscoming

Yes Val, you are right, Tribulation is called tribulation and wrath is wrath, God did not use two words because He got bored of using one. After the seven years, the wrath will come and only then will be taken by the Lord. As He tells us: at the last trumpet, it will be together with the resurrection of the dead.

.................................

To Stephen:

It saddens me to see Christians who make fun of that which Jesus came to do . "Super christians" "spiderman" , as if we could ever think to contribute anything out of our own. To belittle Christ in us as "spiderman" or to suggest that its something that we must do. Where God has given us His Son to enable many sons to come into maturity. To make fun of those who trust God to be true to His Word and those who rely on the promises of God.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.

I cannot bend to your will, no matter how angry you become and how much frustration you show through your words.I see what I see and therefor I believe. Just be careful of what you say to people, because sometimes we overstep our mark, not with man, but with God.

C

Yes Val, you are right, Tribulation is called tribulation and wrath is wrath, God did not use two words because He got bored of using one. After the seven years, the wrath will come and only then will be taken by the Lord. As He tells us: at the last trumpet, it will be together with the resurrection of the dead.

.................................

To Stephen:

It saddens me to see Christians who make fun of that which Jesus came to do . "Super christians" "spiderman" , as if we could ever think to contribute anything out of our own. To belittle Christ in us as "spiderman" or to suggest that its something that we must do. Where God has given us His Son to enable many sons to come into maturity. To make fun of those who trust God to be true to His Word and those who rely on the promises of God.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.

I cannot bend to your will, no matter how angry you become and how much frustration you show through your words.I see what I see and therefor I believe. Just be careful of what you say to people, because sometimes we overstep our mark, not with man, but with God.

C

Val,

There is a difference between persecution and the tribulations of this life ..... and the wrath of the Lord. A big difference. This difference is explained in scripture in detail. His wrath will be directed at a world of unbelievers and not against you. His flood killed an entire world of humans ..... for their unbelief. This kind of action is the wrath of the Lord. His coming hour of trial will be the same. The list for the tribulation seeker is scriptural and it is a summary of some very key and significant items that the believer needs to review for understanding. Billions of humans will enter the period.

There are saved immortal humans in heaven recorded in Revelation observing as the tribulation period advances on the earth in a number of interactive verses. How did they get there and who are they? I am one who believes that the scriptures should be learned and taught correctly regardless of the timing of any of the Lord's interventions at the time of the end. Not looking for an easy way out of anything ..... so this is not my motive ..... as the favorite argument goes by those who discount the Lord's promise to keep one from His hour of trial. If one denies this promise, then the next step will be to deny His coming at all ..... and this is happening to day on a large scale among professing "Christian" organizations. Then there are those who think they will bring the kingdom before the Lord comes so that He can return ..... and so on go the deceptions .... and there is a motive and reason for this deception ..... a whole different subject. Much of this extra-Biblical slant leads to doctrines of works and other off coarse beliefs that destroy the very fabric of the gospel message.

I am prepared for anything: I am an F16 recon pilot, have been in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Israel several times, my wife and I live on 20 acres in remote South Dakota, have are own well, have 10 acres of trees to use for fire wood, grow much of our food, and we are very self sufficient. So I am certainly not one to look for a way of "escape" as the nay sayers would have it. This argument should be suspect in its self .... it is weak, unrealistic, and divertive. I believe the devil himself would say it. For example he would say, you must enter the tribulation period and must be persecuted in order to "purify" yourself (because the Lord's sacrifice is not sufficient). This is a popular theme of those who deny the Lord's early "harpazo". So it is not for myself that I post the list to prove something, but for those who need to know that the identified topics exist. Many do not know this and they could be headed for the tribulation knowingly, or unknowingly.

But we need to learn and reveal what the scriptures attest to. There are many who take advantage of those who do not take time to study the Lord's Word today by leading them off of the road in a number of directions. These can be easily be identified by their questionable doctrines and teachings, and almost all of them tout the case against the Lord's "harpazo" action before He begins His hour of trial against an unbelieving world. The point here is for one to inspect what is really taking place and why these are against the Lord's apparent promise regarding His intentions for the living believer who will be around just before He triggers His devastating blows of wrath. There is a real taint to what these say and one needs to look behind the screen for the other connected beliefs that reside in the shadows. I posted this response just for you so that you can understand my concern.

Yes that would be the devil speaking. We all know that is not true. Jesus took away the sins of the world and cleansed us from all unrighteousness.

Sorry there is no proof for the pre-trib rapture.
C

"It saddens me to see Christians who make fun of that which Jesus came to do . "Super christians" "spiderman" , as if we could ever think to contribute anything out of our own. To belittle Christ in us as "spiderman" or to suggest that its something that we must do. Where God has given us His Son to enable many sons to come into maturity. To make fun of those who trust God to be true to His Word and those who rely on the promises of God."

No fun intended ..... total seriousness ..... and no "anger" as you imply. This "anger" stuff of yours is all debate talk and used to discredit a poster. The "mature" believer does not get angry and has no reason to. And your "sad" song about what Jesus came to do ...... tell me just what did He come to do? Again, this is debate rethoric and it proves nothing except for your motivations. If you are going to respond to me I want the facts and not debate "speak".

You are one who teaches the doctrine of the "super Christian" concept (I have read most of your posts over a long period of time) and I have to say for you to be warned of this false theology ..... for many and even more significant reasons in addition to denying the Lord's intervention and "harpazo" action for living believers just before His hour of trial. Just how much and what do you contribute on your own .... and how much and what will you contribute during the tribulation? And what would this be? It does not include a witness to sound doctrine from the scriptures by a long shot. And when will you be "mature".... there yet? What does this contrived stature include? Give me the scriptures that support your adventure into the tribulation period as one of the elite. Your idea is folly and you cannot support it by sound exegesis of the scriptures. Give me Biblical facts and reasonable discussion, not debating rethoric. I will await your answers.

Which doctrine seems to be the "ear tickler"----?

1. Jesus will appear and take us all away from having to face tribulation, the Antichrist and the Beast---

or

2. Jesus comes at the last trump after the tribulation and before the vials of wrath to gather his church----


If you said doctrine #1 YOU ARE CORRECT!

The wrath of God is in the Bowl or Vial judgments in Rev. 15 The trumps are NEVER called the wrath.

History repeats as many of you know.....this "pre-tribulation deception" isn't new...the apostate Jews believed the same lie and suffered for it.

They, like Stephen, were expecting the Messiah to come and deliver them from the Roman Beast but He didn't. The pre-tribbers are expecting to be delivered from the Antichrist and Beast---but they are deceived as well. History repeats.


The DEAD in Christ must rise FIRST, THEN we who are alive and REMAIN (through what?) will be caught up together to meet him in the air. The Resurrection and Rapture happen on the same day, friends.

"Sorry there is no proof for the pre-trib rapture."

Tell the Lord. Not me.

Your are doing what I just explained above. What you just said ..... so the devil speaks. Is he sitting on you shoulder?

I think 3am said all that needs to be said, but just for the sake of it.
Lets me ask you this. What scripture do you have stephen to prove that what Yeshua himself taught was a time of tribulation is actually Yahweh's wrath?
Secondly why would Yeshua spend sooooo much time teaching about the time of tribulation if no one was gonna go through it but unsaved people and 144,000 invincible jews. You say other ways of thinking are results of new thoughts. But it is your very belief of a pretrib. rapture that was the result of the 1800's. Thats 1800 years after Yeshua was born and died and rose again, before this pretrib theory started. The early church expected and did go through tribulations. The church is at its best during persecutions. You are right thinking we will not have to tryin survive through Yahweh's wrath. But Yeshua never said we would be raptured or saved from the wrath that is clearly from satan since we are warned that He is super angry cause his time is short. But in fact to keep it from confusion people, it is never called wrath or even satans wrath, but the time of the Great Tribulation.
The time will come when we are all on the same page, because these events will be before us. IS it not because we are "seeking the trib" as you say. No we will know because Yeshua made it very clear to take heed the warnings about this time period. John in Rev. makes it clear that blessed are those whom read and take to heart what is written. We are warned and warned about this, because we will see it. As you like to say "There is a big difference" between the wrath of Yahweh and the period of tribulation Yeshua warns us about.
Hey brother I love you and hope you have great faith, becaue when the ulgy day that is the tribulation begins and you are still here. Not because you've been "left behind" as some hollywoods call it, but because you just happen to be living in the time of History destined for this. You were chosen by Yahweh Himself to be here on earth in the most terrible, awesome, spiritual, gruesome, crazy time the earth has ever known. You and I along with all the rest of the Saints have been chosen to live and die in the period of the book of REvelation. We are blessed among many. The host of heaven I'm sure have been waiting to see us come along. They cheer for joy no doubt when stephen was born again, shekel, and roxygal, and C. They cheer because these are the ones chosen before the world started, to be here when it ends. To do things the prophets only dreamed of. To help bring millions to Yeshua, when every thing is in Chaos. The angels are no doubt britghter with excitement when they see all those whom have been called for this great battle to come, lining up just as their maker said they would. Remember no one events marks the days when Yeshua will return except one. When the last saint that is to die, dies. Yahweh just as promised to the souls under the alter, will unleash his wrath on the world. This is both sad and great. But how glorious it would be to be this last martyr.
To be the martyr that dies, and God says it is time.
This time period will involve Christians that are here before the trib. begins and hopefully you will look to Father for the answers you seek. Because you and I along with all the saints have been made for this purpose. To be the light in the world, in what just happens to be the end of it. To be the light in what is turning quickly into the darkest it ever been. Shine my brother and we will be hand in hand with you.

I input no scripture because as I said 3am said all biblicaly that needs to be said. This is just my opinion.
ETC

"The Resurrection and Rapture happen on the same day, friends."

Actually these two actions happen in the same moment ...... you just have the timing in the wrong place. I will not elaborate ..... I could. And have. Find and read the topics on the seeker list in the scriptures. Better to meet the Lord in the air than to meet the devil on the earth in the tribulation period. Rejoice those who dwell in heaven (guess who?)..... but woe unto the inhabitants of the earth because the devil has come down to you with great wrath because he knows his time is short. [Revelation 12:12] Satan hates this verse.

Stephen , you say:



That's incorrect. The bible tells us that it is

'The Day of the Lord' that comes as thief in the Night.

No, ....I'll meet the devil here on Earth and expose his works of darkness and overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony. Then, after the tribulation of those days, as the Lord said so plainly, He'll descend, at the LAST trump, with a GREAT SHOUT, and He will gather His elect from the four corners of heaven to the four corners of the Earth and then and ONLY then will we meet the Lord in the air. End Times said this so eloquently. 3am was right on...And C was as well......

This is the greatest moment in church history...the church persecuted-tribulated- in the fiery trial! Walking as Christ walked-doing exploits in His name- reflecting his glory! Laying down our lives as a witness! God gives the beast to wear out the saints...but just like our Lord was victorious IN HIS DEATH...so will we be.

People will be offended when they realize the rapture didn't happen as promised. Many will fall away and take the mark of the Beast because what their pastor told them was false. Ear tickling doctrines like the pre-trib rapture keep the church from being prepared for what's coming, but American Christians just love the easy way gospel of escapism without trial.

SB,

The "Day of the Lord" (the tribulation - his hour of trial) will come unexpectedly, as a thief does ..... no signs, no warning. And he will also call for the Body of Christ just before He begins His hour of trial .... no one knows when this will happen. These are two different events .... first His "harpazo" action, and then His wrath against an unbelieving world.

Stephen,

You are confusing the tribulation which includes the seal and trumpet judgments with the "Day of the Lord" which starts with the bowl judgments in Rev. 15. Here's the proof scripturally:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

PLEASE show me where the word "wrath" is used anywhere to describe the seal/trumpet judgments. They are NOT the wrath but the testing, trial, tribulation. Wrath is punishment! The world gets this in the bowls as we are with the Lord Jesus in Heaven.

The world doesn't need tribulation...it gets the wrath. God's LUKEWARM church needs the persecution to fully come out of the love of the world and the things in it..to come out of false religion and worldly patriotism which is treason to the Kingdom of God. And there are signs that start the Day of the Lord...the sun and moon are darkened. I agree with you that during this time of God's wrath upon the wicked, we will NOT be here. We are "harpazo-ed" at the last trump which sounds BEFORE the first BOWL judgment. We are not appointed unto wrath- Jesus took the wrath of God for me....thank God!

BJ,

So you will meet the devil on the earth during the tribulation? Good luck.

13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

6:11 [/u]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled[/u].

20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I also have to tell you that the gatherings in Matthew 24:29-31 and 25:31-46 are after the tribulation, are not resurrections, but the separation of mortals who survive the tribulation period and they will re-populate the Lord's millennial kingdom on the earth. These gatherings are not for the Church which will be made immortal before the tribulation begins.

I would say that your "itching ears" doctrines are believed by those who refute the Lord's intentions of the timing and event of His "harpazo", but for other deceptive reasons. Be careful. Also, your concept of the time frame of the Lord's wrath is lacking. His period of unmitigated wrath will cover the entire 70th week decreed and it is the same as the 7 year tribulation period. You need to improve your overview of the scriptures related to this subject. I can help with this, but you will need much remedial by the sound of your posts.

Joshua 6:4 And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets.
Joshua 6:5 And it shall be, that, when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall go up every man straight before him.


Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Daniel 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Daniel 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.
Matt. 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matt. 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt. 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor. 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
1Thess. 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

BJ,

Not here to debate, but to inform.

The last "trump" Paul speaks of is the last for the Church. The first is in Revelation 1:10. The 7th judgment trumpet in Revelation is the 3rd woe which will involve the 7 vial judgments against Satan's beast and followers and there are no resurrections associated with it in the context of the record describing it. There will be a resurrection of those who become believers and are martyred for their faith during the tribulation at the end of it as recorded in Revelation 20:4

The gathering trumpet in Matthew 24 is for the mortal tribulation survivors of the "elect" of national Israel .... not the immortal Church. The Lord calls them His brethren in Matthew 25:40. Those mortal survivors of the tribulation of the nations will also be gathered and separated ...... sheep and goat ...... and the believing sheep will enter His millennial kingdom on the earth. These gatherings will happen after the tribulation of those days and this will be of mortals ..... not immortals. All of these will reside on the earth in physical bodies and will re-populate the Lord's millennial kingdom which will last for 1,000 years.

The serious student and teacher of Bible prophecy needs to know these things and understand them correctly. One's salvation does not depend upon it, but there is a significant need for these things to be rendered properly and conveyed to others. This will prevent many from being deceived by those who manipulate and form doctrines for gain and control. These doctrines are hard to detect if one does not know and understand the scriptures in detail. The accompanying false teachings attached to many organizational doctrines often include materials that can lead one away from their own salvation.

ETC,

I see that your view is the same as 3AM and SDA based theology related to Bible prophecy. I have a number of associates that are entangled in SDA teaching. I do not buy your approach at all for many reasons and particularly those related to the prophetic scriptures. No need for debate in this case. It would serve no purpose and would be far too time consuming. This post is about the tribulation period and I already am versed in E.G.White's Great Controversy writings as you are, but I do not buy them at all. She was a false prophet and false teacher. Game over.

For the reader of this post I would suggest that you research the evaluations of E.G.White and the SDA church for your own knowledge. You can find this information on the internet. Hardcore SDA's still rely upon White's extra-Biblical writings although some have redirected their understanding and have formed spin-offs of the organization.

And Mr. Stephen. This is where you are wrong. I do not based my knowledge on these writing. I based my knowledge on the inspired word of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit. You have perhaps to much pride in your own thoughts to lead my friend. You will learn and I would have expected should haved learned in the military that leading is serving. But perhaps I am wrong on the way the military works. The way you lead in the military would I suppose have to be different since you are leading a different army in a different battle. In this battle you must learn you are not the lead BUt Jesus is. You fellow saints are not your subordinates, but your equal brothers and sisters in a battle, you cannot win alone. You must not treat them with contempt, or with a lack of respect of their knowledge. There are some on this board you would do well to respect and listen to for there invaluable years on the front lines in this great spiritual battle. I have no doubt you are a fine leader, but don't forget to love. Other wise you will lose your audience. You obviously feel very strongly about your beliefs. Dont scare people off before they have the chance to get to know you. And hear your message.

On my thinking, like I said it is from my learning the scriptures and allowing my Saviors Spirit to guide and lead my learning. I do not allow another to do the work for me. If I read someone elses book and they sound really right. Does that make it so? No of course not. I am glad you are well versed in MR. Whites book. BUt can you quote as many quotes of Jesus' as you can MR. White's. The point is you are an book educated military man. Black and White. But I assure you this. If you base what you believe from another man's thoughts and inspirations you will be denying the most powerful tool you have to learn of the upcoming events that you my friend WILL see with you own eyes. The Holy spirit.
You do not have to buy any thing my brother. BUt I hope that you would put down that book and read the word. It doesn't have any outside opinions on the matter. It just has the truth. If you would just look at what is there instead of what someone else is trying to tell you is there you would see what others see. I do not hope I am wrong. I do not hope I am right. I just hope in the grand scheme of things. You would show love, because even if the rapture is when you say it is. We have more than enough work to do now. We need to be about our Fathers business. You need not even bring up another book by someone not found in the perfect word of God on this matter. Because if he didn't write the true word of God with the inspiration of the Holy spirit. Then I am told to be wary and test the spirits on all matters. This is def. one of those moments. Because what you preach and claim is the absolute truth is contradictory to the word of God.

Just for the record, we can debate anywhere in this forum although we should be respectful (as I am sure you are).

Don't be afraid to debate. Its not a dirty word, although if it is really a contentious issue it should be discussed in the debates forum.

Shekel (Administrator)

This is almost humerous, were it not so serious. Bible truth is serious.
I dont see any church doctrine in my posts. They are all backed with Scripture. Some, when they cannot refute a position from Scripture try the next best thing, discredit the messenger. I hope that isnt what you are attempting to do. If my positions are incorrect, go through them and point it out with Scripture that contradicts me.
Let the readers decide from the Bible.
But it doesn't help to just say something is wrong or the path is crooked. Show it from the bible.

To be honest, when you make some of the statements that you make like "you need to study your Bible more," and condemn others who disagree with you as false prophets, teachers, tribulation seekers, etc. It appears that you set yourself up as some kind of self proclaimed guru who has all of the answers about everything. I dont think that is what you are trying to communicate, but you should be aware that it does come across that way to some. Just a little tip for what it is worth.
By the way, I have 105 combat missions in Vietnam, but that doesnt make my views correct.
Lets stick to discussing the word of God.
I have chosen to use the methods that Jesus and the NT writers used to interpret the prophecies.
If you feel that is a faulty method, then show us from Scripture.
3am

Whew..... this is exactly why I was reluctant to post to this thread in the 1st place! I am not one that likes confrontations at all and I do not care to debate the issue....Been there and done that. Yet when the Lord says post that is what I must do.

I can tell you that all I care about is the absolute Truth. Do I claim to have all the answers... I would be a fool to even think such a thing. Yet... I can say that I do not ascribe to anyone elses beliefs... Stephen I know that you did not group me there with the others.... yet I do lean toward the view of some of these guys have here. I can tell you that I do not know who this guy or girl is that you are speaking of....or do I know anything about SDA. I am 1st and foremost a Christian and secondly a Baptist by conviction. My parents had me to church by the time I was a week old.... my dad is a deacon and both of my parents have taught Sunday School for 40 something years. I was raised on the Word in my home and Church sometimes more than 3 times a week. Yet I did not come to Christ until I was 26 years old. At that point... I knew that I could not even take what my parents taught me at face value. I set out to learn the Word of God for myself. This had to be something that I searched and knew for myself.

I have to admit in the early days... the doctrinal issues that were ingrained in me were hard to get passed. I found that the majority of what I was taught by Godly Men and women was the truth. Yet there were things that just did not add up and reconcile with other scripture on other issues. If there was ever a die hard pre-tribber it was me. Yet when challenged by a friend and put to the test.... I started to see holes in the view I held. I actually set out to prove her wrong and in the process proved myself wrong. Yet I am telling you that it was the hardest and biggest pride issue I was ever faced with! But finally I got to the point where I said Lord you know... it just really is not about who is right or wrong ... Lord I only want your Truth. Show me your truth.

Stephen I really respect you for many reasons... I know that you are an avid student of the Word of God. From the sounds of things you are also very intellegent and high ranking in your military profession... I commend you for that. I always enjoy reading your post and I am not here to debate anyone... rather share what I feel that that the Lord has shown me in my many years of study. I do not have degrees or honours yet I do have the Spirit of God and I am eager and have a willing heart to listen and learn the Word of God. This is my deepest passion to Know the Word of God and not only that but Know the God of the Word.

I would like to address something that you have said....You made the reference of the Lord coming like a thief in the Night....

1 Thessalonians 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Paul continues on to say that if we are in Christ we are not in darkness.... so that day is not going to overtake us as a thief. We are children of the light of the day not of the nigth or darkness.

Trust me several that I love the most still hold to the pre-trib view... my parents and one of my pastors, I love them dearly. It is something that I use to debate till I was blue in the face... and the Lord even stopped that. I love brother... I respect you and your studies... but debate I won't, because to me this is not an essential of the Faith. Now if we were talking Jesus' death burial or resurection, his virgin birth.... these basics beliefs of Salvation in Christ.... then watch out I will come out fighting!

My prayer.... is for the Lord to reveal Truth. But sometimes in order to find truth... we have to admit we might be wrong. And boy can I tell you that I hope that I am wrong cause I do not want to have to go through any hard times.

Love ya brother,
Val
Messiahiscoming

Where do you see that the trumpet of Mat 24 is for national Israel and not the church?
The book of Matthew was written over 30 years after the cross for the church.
What guiding principles do you use to decide which verses apply to the church and which do not?

“At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Mt 24:30-31).

John wrote the following to the church:
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen (Re 1:7).
The both sound very similar.
these verses and many many more show me there is no difference between the rapture and the second coming. When Jesus spoke about coming again, he was talking about one event. There is no verse in Revelation that talks about a time of tribulation or a second chance after Jesus comes for the church.
3am

Thanks Val, both things that I wanted to say. First is sounds like what I did, I use to be pre-trib as well and also cried out to the Lord. I did nothing , but wait. He did it when I had forgotten I even asked. He opened my eyes.

I also wanted to post that Scripture section, because it sheds light on the matter. Those who are sleeping will be caught off guard. We are NOT in darkness that , that day will overtake us like a thief.

............
Stephen, you ask me about what I believe from Scripture, and you say that you have read all my posts?

So , when you read them (and people know that I post with scripture, when I explain what I believe. Some have actually told me that I use too much Word.! ) you must have seen that I have already spoken all of what I believe in all my posts. It covers more than the rapture, because the rapture is not the aim of the Gospel. Christ IN YOU is the aim of the Gospel. You and I , dying to self and allowing God to take over.


There are more to Christianity than waiting for the rapture. It will come, be sure of that, because the Bible tells us that Jesus WILL come for all of us.

You and I must also look at MORE than the rapture. We have to know what God is saying to us about our lives .

When we see a scripture like this: Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.
(amongst many such scriptures) it should make us scramble to the Scriptures to find out what God is saying, because it actually speaks of our eternal life? We cannot just sit back and relax into what people have taught us, we have to study for ourselves and SEE from the WHOLE Bible what is truth.

If I offend you, I want to apologize.

I will post with a neutral "vibe" and just say what I see in the Bible.
We all need to come to maturity, not out of ourselves, because that would be works, but through FAITH in the DONE works of our Lord Jesus, Who said "[b]Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

So Jesus did finish what He came to do. He came to:Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me; because Jehovah hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;



Through His stripes we WERE healed , He has supplied all our needs for us. (First by faith and then by manifestation............always FIRST by faith !)

I am going to shorten this as Shekel suggests

Last point:2Pe 1:3 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue;
2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

So He HATH GRANTED all these things to the believer. Seeing that it is no longer US that live , but CHRIST that lives in us (we HAVE BEEN crucified) it becomes clear that in fact ALL we do is now through Christ. HIM in us all, the hope of glory.

So we cannot ever be "super Christians" . We are dead and no longer live, and now all that we do , we do unto God through Christ. Its faith in the done works of our Lord.

We cannot heal a sick person, we cannot raise the dead, we cannot chase the smallest demon, we cannot defeat Satan ::::: BUT HE CAN, and HE HAS .
Me and you and every Christian partake of this victory and we overcome as He overcame, through faith in what HE has done.

QUOTE

Psa 18:29 For by thee I run upon a troop; And by my God do I leap over a wall.
Psa 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: The word of Jehovah is tried; He is a shield unto all them that take refuge in him. Psa 18:31 For who is God, save Jehovah? And who is a rock, besides our God,
Psa 18:32 The God that girdeth me with strength, And maketh my way perfect? (Perfection is granted by God through faith in the done works,not by sight, but by faith)
Psa 18:33 He maketh my feet like hinds' feet: And setteth me upon my high places.
Psa 18:34 He teacheth my hands to war; So that mine arms do bend a bow of brass.
Psa 18:35 Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation; And thy right hand hath holden me up, And thy gentleness hath made me great.

ITS ALL HIM, nothing of ourselves. Nobody gets the glory but God

in Christ
C

Well C.... it does seem that He has us on the same page tonight....in 2 different threads! That is amazing when He does that!

Your Friend in Christ,
Val

Messiahiscoming

Hi Stephen, thanks for the reply by the way.
This is an area I've made a complete hash of in the past,
which is why I keep very quiet on the matter.

But it appears to me that the coming of the Lord is spoken of in 2 different ways.

In manner, and in timing.

The manner we are well aware of..........Jesus is coming back in clouds and every man shall see him.

The timing is another matter.

Psalms says that a thousand years is as a watch in the night.
There are four watches in the night, and the night is twelve hours long.
So the night is a period of 4000 years.

Jesus can (or could have) come back at any point, any point, in that 4000 year period.

So when Paul and Peter speak of the Day of the Lord, they are referring to the timing of events.
That is why Paul starts by saying, 'But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you', (For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night).

He is talking about the timing of the event.

Likewise Peter explains that a day is like 1000 years, before talking about the day of the Lord. He also is talking about the timing of the event.

So as Val and C and 3AM have said (I think):

Although the return of the Lord is at an unspecified time, (within certain parameters,) we are not totally in the dark.
If we understand prophecy, we will expect certain prophecies to be fulfilled prior to Jesus returning.
Therefore if we understand prophecy, we will be in the light on this matter.
( and that is why Peter says prophecy is 'a light in a dark place'. )

Best wishes
Simple

Val,

That was one of the most elequontly said posts on rapture I've ever read. The Lord surely shines through your eyes girl!


The Word gives us all we need to know...if we earnestly seek the Truth, He will show us. In His time... =)

Blessings to all my brothers and sisters!!
I love you my family..
Lisa

I lean to pre trib more then any other interpretation. However...

In all honesty every dream and vision l've had concerning the end times shows terrible trial first.

I've called it chastisement. I believe it is that. But l do wonder about things and God meant it to be so.

C..I would read your whole post but once l read your blatant arrogant scathing remark l cut you off. Here it is:



STOP IT!

You are insulting and belittling to true brothers and sister and this kind of talk is simply a lie of mockery against those you should be drawing close to you if you truly know the answers. And maybe you know some of them but then you negate them with your on purpose response.



This is you!

Over an over again you've been witnessed to in detail explaining to you what makes us what we are...what l am...and still you continue because you've found a raw nerve and you know it so you keep picking the scab. And then you pat yourself on the back and say you haven't lost fellowship.

Stephen wrote-

The last "trump" Paul speaks of is the last for the Church. The first is in Revelation 1:10.

Stephen, allow me to point out something to you that will help in your "serious" study of prophecy. You state as fact that the first trump is this...

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

This is scripture twisting to fit false doctrine. It is the Lord's voice that is AS a trump..not a TRUMP. Here is a serious warning to you, do not mangle scripture to fit your false doctrine while you tell the person sharing the truth with you that they need to study the bible more seriously.

Here is the first trump according to the scripture....

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Now Stephen, this is not a voice that sounds LIKE a trumpet, this is the FIRST TRUMPET as the scripture PLAINLY states. Warning to all reading this post...read the scriptures and trust the actual wording...not your denominations interpretations to fit their ear tickling false assumptions which Stephen's posts are full of.

Since we just saw the FIRST trumpet, let's look at the LAST TRUMPET.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

There it is! The Mystery of God! Did not Paul call the Rapture the MYSTERY? Yes he did. look....

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This proves beyond doubt that the last trump is in Rev 10;7 because it connects the mystery of God with the Rapture. You are therefore wrong in your assertions as proven by CLOSE study of the scriptures.

More proof from the Bible and not someone else's denominational handbook....

Jos 6:4 And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.
Jos 6:5 And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.

Any serious bible student can see the rapture hidden in this passage of scripture. We have 7 trumpets, 7 times (years) a Great Shout, and the people ascending! This will ONLY happen according to history and the pattern seen here. at the 7 th trump, friends....not the first trump at the start of the 7 years, but at the END of the 7 years (times) will we shout and GO UP to take the city, New Jerusalem.

Praise God that He gave us proof in His Word so that the real disciples will not be deceived by ear tickling false doctrines of all fly away, no trib for me rapture escapism. One day we will all agree on these issues, but until them we MUST make a strong defense of the truth in the face of those who would twist and mangle the scriptures to fit their incorrect assumptions based on pride and stubbornness.

Miki:

I am sorry if you are frustrated.

That remark is neither arrogant or untrue. Of course there is more to the gospel than the rapture.

So you are saying that there is not more to the gospel than the rapture?

If you agree that there is more, how is it arrogant and still you agree,

If you do not agree, you are saying that there is nothing more than waiting for the rapture.

Who is the strange one here???

Miki, you are really welcome to skip my posts, they always make you angry. There is a button in your control panel that will stop you from seeing my posts. I cannot change my view because you find it uncomfortable.

I have not broken fellowship with anybody.

C

BJ

The Lord uses the voice of an archangel for communication and it sounds like a trumpet, but also can be understood as speech. Your "twisting of scripture" comment is evidence of your own lack of understanding. Read the scriptures more carefully. Want to try more evaluations? Bring them on. A great chance to discuss and present for further learning. My demeanor here is for the purpose of showing you how you come across in your rebuttals.

1Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

He uses this same voice operative in Revelation chapter 1 for His first formal communication to the Body of Christ.

Are you a tribulation seeker? If so I might suggest that you consider to be one who seeks the Lord's return for you. Your choice.

C is definitely a tribulation seeker by choice and this is very evident by his posting. I have no problem with this position that he has chosen ...... for it is his way and he must deal with it. This is the very kind of docternal persuasion that one needs to be aware of and of what really lies at the bottom and behind the motivations expressed for themselves and for others. Those who are taught to seek the Lord's wrath for various reasons and teach others to do the same need to contemplate and ponder over just what they thinking and why. The believer should be seeking the Lord's return for them ..... not His wrath against unbelief. IF you are on this road of destruction you need to get off and redirect your desires toward His grace and His power and His willingness to save you from the wrath to come. Seek the Lord and not His wrath that is coming. He has promised to keep you from it.

S-

You didn't address anything I wrote...that's ok...the patterns in history cannot be broken and the people went up at the last trump on the 7th day. Also, the voice of the Archangel is NOT the trumpet of God...it says AND the trump of God. you have had MANY witnesses in this thread that are contrary to your pre-trib position and I agree with them...as the scriptures also bear witness that only after the tribulation will the Lord descend to gather His elect. I have no need to "seek" tribulation because I'm seeking His Kingdom and His righteousness first...tribulation always follows. I just hope you won't be blind to the mark of the beast because the rapture hasn't happened yet..... many will be fooled by this...I pray you are not one.

Also, you are wrong about C as he can discern between the tribulation and the wrath of God....something that would help you greatly if you would be teachable from the scriptures. Try and preach this pre-trib error to the saints in China who are currently suffering persecution.....easy escapism is for cowards who aren't willing to suffer as the Lord did.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Thank you, I can see that the first scripture you gave is NOT a trumpet (or first trumpet)
It is also very clear where that trumpet is, as you pointed out:


Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I really think that this is forcing scripture to say something that you need it to say.

The text in Revelation is totally clear about the trumpet, and the wrath.



The believer should be looking for Christ return IN the believer (Rom 8) before His return FOR us.


C

Exactly C- I fear God too much to twist the scriptures to fit an error like the pre-trib rapture. At this point, there has been plenty of excellent proofs against this false teaching. Thank you 3am, end times, C...et al....

Too many disciples are waking up to the ear tickling doctrines and the Lord is stirring His body!!!!

Get ready, Saints. We are going through the 7 years tribulation JUST LIKE the 3 Hebrews went THROUGH the 7 times heated furnace....but never fear for just as there was a fourth man in the fire with them like unto a son of the gods, so will Christ go through the tribulation with us!

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

BJ,

I did address your specific statement about the first trump for the Church and you continue to use debating tactics for rebuttal. This tells me much about you. The voice and trumpet of an archangel are combined and the Lord uses this operative. Your attempt to pick this descript apart does not work. Go back and read Revelation 1:10-20 again.

Revelation
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches

Those who seek the Lord's wrath (knowingly or unknowingly) against unbelief had better think about what they are doing and why. And it really makes no difference what several "posters" think one way or the other ..... the scriptures have the evidence. Again, it is one's choice. And I will never be "fooled" by the "antichrist" (beast) ...... I know too much about satan's game from the scriptures. Your rebuttal here is used by many today and it is divertive by those who are teaching it .... for different reasons. It just does not stand the test of logic. Even those who become believers during the Lord's hour of trial against unbelievers will not be "fooled" by the beast as you state ..... and the proof is in the scriptures ..... they will be martyred for their faith.

Amen brother. Glory to God. I love that piece of history as well. Pointing to the Tribulation

Dan 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace seven times more than it was wont to be heated. (Tribulation)

Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king (The Beast) was astonished, and rose up in haste: he spake and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.
Praise God: The fourth Man is Jesus , He will be with us in the "fire" and His people will be freed from their bonds (as shown here)



Of course they will NOT be fooled, they will have the church to guide them through it. Christ manifesting in His body . Jesus, the Fourth Man, in the fire. Jesus will lead His people against the antichrist system.

C

I was reading the Bible the night...Matthew 24.

these verses stuck out to me:

20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22. Except those days should be shortened there should be no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo here is Christ, or there, believe it not.

24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that , IF it where possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Jesus has got your back...Give ye thanks unto the LORD of Hosts.Praise him and the Devil shall flee.

25. Behold, I have told you before. (WHEN did Jesus tell us BEFORE?) His word is written in our hearts and will lead us all to HIS TRUTH...Psalms 139

Loved your post Messiahiscoming.!!! yes he lives within us...and directs our paths. We are the Temple of God, giving him all the Glory and Honor and Wisdom, every good and PERFECT GIFT comes down from the Father of Lights.



26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the dessert; go not forth; behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
AWAKENING of the CHURCH, Christ in us the Hope and the GLORY.

28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heavens shall be shaken:

powers of Heavens shall be shaken...The War in the Heavens, (between darkness and light) even in Genesis we see this battle...BEFORE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE WORLD, men loved darkness more than light....which I believe the battle is for the saving of those still lost in darkness. He chastises those he loves.

30. And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and THEN shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY.

He came first as the suffering Servant at the hands of sinners and will COME AGAIN as the Conquering KING of KINGS and LORD OF LORDS.

31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

HIS ELECT ARE IN HEAVEN!!!

We entered into God's ARK by the Resurrection of our LORD and SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST...NOW BE READY at all times for no one knows the hour but OUR FATHER.

40. THEN shall two be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.

let no one try to destroy you, for time will be shortened for our sakes,, he shall strengthen us and encourage us, when we look upon our Comforter... for many will come against the Children of GOD to persecute the Church...PSALMS 139, for the the persecution of the Saints has happened since Before with the prophets and the Saints and also when Jesus Came in His Father's Will and died on the Cross for the World and Jesus ascended unto Heaven, and we are seated in the Heavens WITH HIM, in the ARC of HIS COVENANT WITH US.

Why has he called the HOLY GHOST THE COMFORTER?...because he knows that all those who surrender to his will, and walk in his ways will be strengthened, all those whom call upon his Holy name...he KNOWS the beginning from the End...HE IS THE GREAT I AM...he knows those whose hearts long for His kingdom Come, and he has us here in this time of HIS STORY for his purpose and his Glory. His love is all powerful, he IS longsuffering Patient, for he wishes that none perish but have everlasting life.

Jesus also tells us not to worry, but TRUST that he came BEFORE and WILL COME AGAIN in the clouds he ascended unto Heaven and will RETURN in the Clouds.

He breathed LIFE upon us, he WALKS BEFORE US, HE PREPARES A PLACE FOR US, Greater is he that is IN us than we are of ourselves...in this we can trust...He lead his disciples in the face of all battles and prepared a place for them in HIS KINGDOM....he FINISHED the BATTLE and will give us the courage to endure whatever storms come, when we TURN TO HIM.

How astounding is the WORD of GOD...layers upon layers of Breath, Height, and Width and Depth.
Giving each of us some insight, and Hope...because there is no greater love than this that a man lay down his life for another.

But he knows the Beginning from the End...He is the Alpha and Omega..

HIS WORD has so much depth and layers...He knew they, we would part his GARMENTS FOR LOTS...true to every battle of humanity ever fought.

We are his GARMENTS..to choose LIFE or Choose Death

Good post, but learn that the Lord's discourse is directed to the generation of national Israel living during the tribulation period at the time of the end ..... not the Church. The Church is not in Judea as verse 15 implies. And Luke 21 states "when you see Jerusalem surrounded with armies"..... this is Israel in the Middle East at the time of the end. These are just a couple of reasons why you need to know that the scriptures you are providing are a picture of the time of the end, but one directed to the believing remnant part of national Israel and not the Church. Those that flee from the beast when he invades the nation are those of Israel who will become believers during the Lord's hour of trial and wrath ...... not believers of the Body of Christ composed of both Israelites and Gentiles without regard for national identity. The Church will be immortalized before the period and are not the "elect" in this discourse. They will be the believing remnant part of national Israel.

"Of course they will NOT be fooled, they will have the church to guide them through it'

I want the scriptures that support your statement here. You are speculating. It is the 144,000 Israelites who will do what you say. These are ethnic Israelites ..... or do you suppose that your are one of them? It is the Lord Himself and these who will take the gospel and related to those who become believers during the period of the Lord's hour of trial against unbelievers.

Here is my support:

Revelation
7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Give me the scriptural support for your statement above please? I will await your response.