All my life I've heard that God loves everyone unconditionally. That there's nothing you can do to make Him love you any more or any less. "For God so loved the world....." right?
In light of this, let me share a few scriptures that caused me to think again.

Jeremiah 25:33 And the slain of The Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground.

Psalm 5:5 The arrogant shall not stand in thy sight: Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:6 Thou wilt destroy them that speak lies: Jehovah abhorreth the blood-thirsty and deceitful man.

Rev .14:9-11 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.


Where's the love?

Oh, here it is........

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him,(conditioned on keeping His Word) and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (so, like, what if you don't keep His word?)

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,(again, this sounds conditional to me) he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him.
(Obedience to the Word of God= You loving Jesus=God loving YOU.)

Isaiah 66 .......but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and that trembleth at my word.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

The Lord does not love everyone individually, does he? What am I missing?


So, here is my conclusion. God does NOT love me unconditionally. IF I don't "keep His Word" as HE said, then I will suffer His wrath and judgment. If I don't "tremble at His word with a contrite heart"...then He does not even look my way. I trust the written scriptures.

The Truth is always harsher than the lie. I know that scripture does not contradict, so if you are going to posts the regular "God is love...and For God so loved the world...you have to include the ones on who God hates as well.....right?" Scriptures agree with scriptures......

God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son ....SO THAT whosoever would believe....would not perish. The rest of non-believing humanity is doomed to eternal flames....without the love of God. Therefore, God does not love everyone individually unconditionally.

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated.......

This topic stirs many Christians to anger...this is not my intention ... but to start a discussion on the nature of God according to the written scriptures and not the traditional teachings of men. You must admit there are many verses that point to the fact that God isn't indiscriminate in whom He loves. He created Pharaoh just in order to show His wrath.....ouch! (Romans 9)

Blessings,

Bro. Jon

Question-

Did God love........

Jezebel? He had dogs eat her flesh and excrete her as dung on the ground. (1Ki. 21:23)

Goliath? David cut off his head and fed his flesh to the birds of the air. (1Sam. 17:46 )

Pharaoh? His son was killed and He was drowned in the Red Sea. (Ex. 15:4)

Korah? He rebelled against Moses and God opened the earth and swallowed him alive. (Num. 16:32)

Lucifer? God created all beings including Lucifer. Does God love him? (Eze. 28:18 )

Esau? He sold his birthright for a pot of flesh and was disinherited and "hated" by God. (Rom. 9:13)

The nations other than Israel? God chose ONE nation to receive His law- the rest were without hope of salvation and were doomed to eternal fire.

Thank God in the New Testament we have God's love extended to all nations through His gift of Jesus Christ!

I agree. Its conditional according to those scriptures you have quoted. Your sentence above says it well: God EXTENDED His love towards all mankind through Jesus.
The condition is faith and walking in the Word. Being found IN Christ in faith.Believing God, not just believing IN Him.......that would be believing the Word as a whole.

Rom 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God's goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Conditional !

C

Fascinating.....I'm actually interested in seeing the debunkers - for want of a better word - respond to this. Reason being - most churches preach the unconditional love of God. It is yet again another 'thingy' I have - it goes with the fire and brimstone God of the Old Testament. In that I mean, God warned through His prophets of what would happen if the people strayed. And generally - he followed through - please dont' require me to go looking, I've had 3 hours sleep last night and am waiting for the husband to have his shower so I can go back to bed.

It's like us with our children tho. WE love our children unconditionally. If we are ALL God's children - doesn't He love US unconditionally? however, when our children disobey - it may seem to them we don't love them when we punish them. There are parents out there that disinherit their children because of continued disobedience.

So - I would truly like to hear other people's responses with this.

The world has sinned away from the beginning up until now.
God is loving that He gave man a way to everlasting life.
It was unconditional love.
He gave us His grace. He gave us something undeserved.
In spite of man sinning everyday. God spares him. Keyword IN SPITE.
Its not "If you love me and keep my commandments I will love you"
no but it is rather "you have hated me and broken my commandments but in spite of that I will love you"

He loved us while we were sinners. Is that not unconditional enough?


You conclude that God does not love you unconditionally? In spite that you sin possibly everyday. He could crush you but He does not. Is that not unconditional love? He showers you with mercy and grace and you say God does not love you unconditionally?

Of course there are conditions that we must abide by. Of course God is a loving God but don't forget that He is also a just and holy God.
He must punish evil. Now God gives man many years to turn back to Him.
God is so gentle and kind that He would give man a will to choose.
And God will honor that choice.
God tells man: I'm a holy God and just judge who must punish evil. You are guilty of breaking my laws. You will be separated from me and cast into prison. But someone paid your bail. He did it out of love. But there are certain conditions you must do. Accept His bail and never commit the crimes again.

Its your choice to accept or decline.

God hates sin and those who continually sin.

Bro. Jon said:

He created Pharaoh just in order to show His wrath.....ouch! (Romans 9)


my thoughts:

Pharoah hardened his own heart.............Pharoah could have lived according to his conscience, BUT, HE VIOLATED HIS OWN CONSCIENCE..........
later, God further hardened Pharoah's heart, so, that God could show His Justice, Plan, Love, etc to the entire world.........God was creating a world-wide story of notoriety which would be in-famous world-wide for centuries and millennia.

Pharoah was a FREE WILL AGENT..........Pharoah chose to violate his own conscience.

CALVINISM is not true.

God's Love is conditional.............if i believe the Gospel , and if i am repentant, God will accept me.
If i remain in un-belief, rebellion, and un-repentance,..........to Hell i go.
If i choose to reject God's Mercy and Plan and Conditions, THAT'S NOT GOD'S FAULT........THAT MY FAULT

from Adam to Abraham, Issac and Jacob (from 4000 BC to 2000 BC),..........there were no Jews and NO LAW OF MOSES.

yet , we know that some were faithful........Abel was a HERO OF FAITH, also noah, (read hebrews 11).

then from Jacob (2000 BC ) to Christ , the LAW OF MOSES ruled the ISRAELITES.

so, does this mean that NO-ONE outside the nation ISRAEL ever was saved (Faithful) , from Jacob to Christ?

i'm thinking:
from Jacob to Christ, there were Gentiles who were faithful (counted as righteous) outside the nation ISRAEL........but, i don't know how to prove that.

if so, they were not required to obey the LAW OF MOSES (since they were not ISRAELITES), but , they lived according to the Light (understanding) that they had.

the Bible does not say that Abraham was the ONLY MAN ALIVE WHO HAD FAITH (or was counted as righteous).

many people think that Job lived about the same time as Abraham.

Melchizedec was SPIRITUALLY SUPERIOR to Abraham.
did Melchizedec have any disciples/followers/church at his home?

John 3:13 tells us that at the time Jesus was on earth, nobody had ascended into heaven.

As for loving sinners, it's pretty much mandated.

Romans 5:6 says that Christ died for the ungodly (not the godly).

1 Timothy 1:15 says that Christ came to save sinners, and goes on to say that Paul, the author, was the foremost of all sinners, at the time he wrote the letter. This means he was still a sinner, as we all are.

1 John 1:8 says that if we saw we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves. We are sinners just like the rest of the world. God loves us all!

John 3:16 tells us that God loved the world!

Exo 7:1 And Jehovah said unto Moses,................Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart,

No free will.

C

I think it is more acurate, Brother Jon, to say people love conditionally rather than God loves conditionally.

I understand that I could misconceive God's unconditional love as conditional when he must deal with those that love God conditionally.

BTW, C's right; no free will.

Pharoah hardened his own heart.............then, later, God further hardened Pharoah's heart even more.........so that, Pharoah could persevere in rebellion in spite of the TERRIFYING PLAGUES.

if there is no free will, then, God is Partial............and the bible plainly states , GOD IS NOT PARTIAL.

the ground at the foot of the Cross is level.

if God hadn't further hardened Pharoah's heart (after the first few PLAGUES), Pharaoh would have caved before Moses before the TEN PLAGUES were finished.
and that way, we would never have had the PASSOVER, THE PLUNDERING OF EGYPT, THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF EGYPT, THE STORY OF PHARAOH DROWNING IN THE RED SEA, THE STORY OF THE RED SEA SPLITTING FOR THE ISRAELITES, ...........
the story would have been very different if God hadn't further hardened Pharoah's heart.

if there's no free will, then my sins are GOD'S FAULT.
Adam had no free will, so, God forced Adam to sin.
and God has no free will, so somebody forced God to sin.
we were made in the image of God (with no free will).
satan has no free will, so his rebellion and foolishness are not his fault.
and my good deeds and faith (if any) are GOD'S PARTIALITY IN MY FAVOR, and my un-faithful neighbor is un-fairly rejected by a PARTIAL GOD.
GOD chose me, and rejected my neighbor, for a PARTIAL reason (or some flippant non-reason).

perhaps the PARTIAL GOD likes white folks, and hates black folks (or vice-versa).

perhaps he likes tall people and hates short people.


God is NOT Partial.
We seem to have free-will............that is the experience that we seem to have..........which makes sense , since we have free will.

CALVINISM is not true.









# Genesis 45:26
And they said to him, Joseph is still alive! And he is governor over all the land of Egypt! And Jacob's heart began to stop beating and [he almost] fainted, for he did not believe them.
Genesis 45:25-27 (in Context) Genesis 45 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said to Moses, When you return into Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all those miracles and wonders which I have put in your hand; but I will make him stubborn and harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 4:20-22 (in Context) Exodus 4 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 7:3
And I will make Pharaoh's heart stubborn and hard, and multiply My signs, My wonders, and miracles in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 7:2-4 (in Context) Exodus 7 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 7:13
But Pharaoh's heart was hardened and stubborn and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.
Exodus 7:12-14 (in Context) Exodus 7 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 7:14
Then the Lord said to Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hard and stubborn; he refuses to let the people go.
Exodus 7:13-15 (in Context) Exodus 7 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 7:22
But the magicians of Egypt did the same by their enchantments and secret arts; and Pharaoh's heart was made hard and obstinate, and he did not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.
Exodus 7:21-23 (in Context) Exodus 7 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 7:23
And Pharaoh turned and went into his house; neither did he take even this to heart.
Exodus 7:22-24 (in Context) Exodus 7 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was temporary relief, he made his heart stubborn and hard and would not listen or heed them, just as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8:14-16 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 8:19
Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, This is the finger of God! But Pharaoh's heart was hardened and strong and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8:18-20 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 8:32
But Pharaoh hardened his heart and made it stubborn this time also, nor would he let the people go.
Exodus 8:31-32 (in Context) Exodus 8 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 9:7
Pharaoh sent to find out, and behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened [his mind was set] and he did not let the people go.
Exodus 9:6-8 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 9:12
But the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, making it strong and obstinate, and he did not listen to them or heed them, just as the Lord had told Moses.
Exodus 9:11-13 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 9:14
For this time I will send all My plagues upon your heart and upon your servants and your people, that you may recognize and know that there is none like Me in all the earth.
Exodus 9:13-15 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 9:34
But when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more, and toughened and stiffened his hard heart, he and his servants.
Exodus 9:33-35 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 9:35
So Pharaoh's heart was strong and obstinate; he would not let the Israelites go, just as the Lord had said by Moses.
Exodus 9:34-35 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 10:1
THE LORD said to Moses, Go to Pharaoh, for I have made his heart hard, and his servants' hearts, that I might show these My signs [of divine power] before him,
Exodus 10:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 10 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 10:20
But the Lord made Pharaoh's heart more strong and obstinate, and he would not let the Israelites go.
Exodus 10:19-21 (in Context) Exodus 10 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 10:27
But the Lord made Pharaoh's heart stronger and more stubborn, and he would not let them go.
Exodus 10:26-28 (in Context) Exodus 10 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron did all these wonders and miracles before Pharaoh; and the Lord hardened Pharaoh's stubborn heart, and he did not let the Israelites go out of his land.
Exodus 11:9-10 (in Context) Exodus 11 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 14:4
I will harden (make stubborn, strong) Pharaoh's heart, that he will pursue them, and I will gain honor and glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exodus 14:3-5 (in Context) Exodus 14 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 14:5
It was told the king of Egypt that the people had fled; and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was changed toward the people, and they said, What is this we have done? We have let Israel go from serving us!
Exodus 14:4-6 (in Context) Exodus 14 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 14:8
The Lord made hard and strong the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the Israelites, for [they] left proudly and defiantly.
Exodus 14:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 14 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 15:8
With the blast of Your nostrils the waters piled up, the floods stood fixed in a heap, the deeps congealed in the heart of the sea.
Exodus 15:7-9 (in Context) Exodus 15 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 23:9
Also you shall not oppress a temporary resident, for you know the heart of a stranger and sojourner, seeing you were strangers and sojourners in Egypt.
Exodus 23:8-10 (in Context) Exodus 23 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 25:2
Speak to the Israelites, that they take for Me an offering. From every man who gives it willingly and ungrudgingly with his heart you shall take My offering.
Exodus 25:1-3 (in Context) Exodus 25 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 28:29
So Aaron shall bear the names of the sons of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart when he goes into the Holy Place, to bring them in continual remembrance before the Lord.
Exodus 28:28-30 (in Context) Exodus 28 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 28:30
In the breastplate of judgment you shall put the Urim and the Thummim [unspecified articles used when the high priest asked God's counsel for all Israel]; they shall be upon Aaron's heart when he goes in before the Lord, and Aaron shall bear the judgment (rights, judicial decisions) of the Israelites upon his heart before the Lord continually.
Exodus 28:29-31 (in Context) Exodus 28 (Whole Chapter)
# Exodus 35:5

No freewill => God is at fault for my sins = a non sequitur.

Thanks for this quote Dennis, it is really clear from this Scripture, Who hardened Pharaoh's heart from the beginning.
C

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! a potsherd among the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

We are the vessels and God is the Potter. He is making vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. He chooses, not us Him.Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:
Eph 1:5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved:

God chose according to the good pleasure of HIS will.
Look and read for yourself

blessings
C

Pharaoh was already an un-repentant sinner by his own free-will choice (before any hardening)...........God further hardened Pharoah's heart .

if Pharoah was a righteous man, when God hardened Pharaoh's heart, that would make God a sinner.

and God is not a sinner.........the bible says that

in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prayed to His God ::: NOT MY WILL, BUT THY WILL BE DONE.
which indicates that God has a WILL (free will choice).
and God is SO LOVING !!!! that it is impossible for Him to choose non-love and un-righteousness.

Adam was made in the image of God (with free will).

it appears to all men that we have free will. that is what it seems to us.

which choices did i make today that were NOT MY free will choice decisions?..........no-one can say........it seems to us that i made them all.

if i rob the bank today, you're going to blame me (you're not going to blame God).
and you'll send me to jail (not God to jail).

if God hardens righteous men, then God is sinful.

I am sorry Dennis, but I cannot see that in this scripture selection. I only see where God hardens his heart.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

I think we have been giving a different picture of God in the church. God is sovereign and He is not going to allow our free will to come against His plan. He is planning to bring many sons into manifestation of Christ. THAT is His ultimate purpose on this planet.

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

if God is SOVEREIGN, and He does not allow me to have free will,...........then why do I fail to EXCEL IN PERFECT FAITHFULNESS AND PERFECT LOVE, from my birth?


every sin is a violation of God's SOVEREIGNTY.

every time i fail to help the poor, that is a contradiction of God's SOVEREIGNTY.

if God is SOVEREIGN, then every person who ever lived, world-wide, has done EXACTLY WHAT GOD DECREED.

wait, enough of this CALVINIST nonsense.


------------

No, the Truth is:
our sins and mistakes and non-love do not contradict God's SOVEREIGNTY.

God is SOVEREIGN , and we are SOVEREIGN (in the sense that God allows us to have free will), and we enjoy the good consequences of our good choices, and we suffer the bad consequences of our bad choices.

Hell will be full of people who sinned by their own free will choice.

God does not blame Himself when i rob the bank.

i don't blame me, when my child fails to help the poor..............i told my children to help the poor at every opportunity............it's not my fault if they dis-obey me.

How can my child's heart be pure, if he lives in less-than-perfect-love?

How can God be pure, if He fails to live in less-than-perfect-love?
How can God be pure, if He allows the wicked to go un-punished?

God will not punish me for my child's sins.

i am not a CALVINIST.

if God was SOVEREIGN (per your definition), then, would all people behave perfectly?









Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.


the AMPLIFIED BIBLE does not say "and create evil."............it says "[MORAL EVIL PROCEEDS FROM THE WILL OF MEN, BUT PHYSICAL EVIL PROCEEDS FROM THE WILL OF GOD], and i create [physical] evil---calamity."

this is just another example of where the AMPLIFIED is far more accurate and understandable than the other translations.

Ah, good topic, I am on my way to a meeting. I will get back to you with scripture today Dennis. Its not Calvanism, its Bible.

have a good day
C

By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
-1 John 4:9-11

The purpose of God's love is to give Life to the dead (1 John 4:9)

The proof of God's love for us is the Cross (v. 10).

The perpetuation of God's love is the goal (v.11).

The love of God is a unique, proprietary love. It is a love that has only One source…God Himself. We cannot find this kind of love (agape love) in anyone or anything but God. He is agape love. This is a love that seeks to sacrificially meet the greatest need of the other, regardless of the worth, performance, or responsiveness of the other.

Man is born dead (spiritually separated) from God. It’s not that he does not have a spirit. It is rather that his spirit is alive to Satan and dead to, separated from, God. When Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he died that day spiritually (Gen. 2:16-17) as did all of future mankind (1 Cor. 15:22a; Rom. 5:12). Comedian and film-maker, Woody Allen, once said, “I am not afraid to die. I just don’t want to be there when it happens.” Well, the biblical truth of the matter is that we were there, in Adam, when death came in and death spread to A-L-L men. Herein lies man’s greatest need…the solution to death. Man has a much bigger problem than just sin. He has a “consequences of sin” problem (Rom. 6:23)…he’s spiritually dead!

Jesus, on the other hand, has the market cornered on Life, eternal life. Jesus' ultimate, bottom-line purpose in loving us was not just to die for us (as essential as that is to our salvation)…but to give Life to us. This unique kind of life is called eternal life. It is, in fact, His life. He IS eternal life! Eternal Life is not a thing. Eternal life is found in a person…the person of Jesus Christ (John 5:4; 10:10; 14:6; 1 Jn 5:11-13). He is the solution to man's greatest need and He provides that solution, L-I-F-E, because He loves us.

[/quote]

It's like us with our children tho. WE love our children unconditionally. If we are ALL God's children - doesn't He love US unconditionally? however, when our children disobey - it may seem to them we don't love them when we punish them. There are parents out there that disinherit their children because of continued disobedience.

So - I would truly like to hear other people's responses with this.
[/quote]

We are NOT all God's children Jesus told the Pharisees that they were of their Father the DEVIL. God doesn't love the devil's children. God doesn't love wickedness.

What do you all think of the concept that God both loves and hates the sinner at the same time?

Is this impossible?

If it is not impossible, then we have an answer for why it seems the bible teaches both.

I am not a part of this posting but I still read it and here is how I feel.
God hates the sins but loves the person.
TO me God loves the lost person also.
Kim

Shekel-

Yes....just as Paul says, "it's no longer I that do it but sin that dwells in me, that is, in my flesh...." Romans 7

We are all "Jacob" AND "Esau"...my fleshly carnal man, God hates...it is His enemy, but He loves the new me that is born from above.

Many people can''t get over the plain scriptures that God HATES ALL workers of iniquity. Psalm 5:5 I didn't write that verse.....While we were YET sinners Christ died for us because God isn't locked into time as we are and He sees us perfected at the end even while we are still rebellious in our sin. His "love" is in the fact that He gave Christ............ His love being upon ANYONE is conditioned on whether or not they are found to be IN CHRIST.

within these 70 years of earthly, fleshly life,.........i have millions of opportunities to believe, confess, repent, convert, ask for forgiveness, etc


every second and minute is another opportunity to convert.

God sees my POTENTIAL conversion from sinner to Saint.
and one day, maybe i will convert.
until then, God hates the sinner and the sin (sort of)...........He's willing to give me millions of chances to believe and change and conform to HIS CONDITIONS AND REQUIREMENTS.

after i convert, God is ecstatic and Joyful that He has another person in His family of Love.

He wants to love and be Loved.
and He wants me to be like Him.
the more the merrier.

God has no use for an un-repentant person.

if i never convert (with my free will), to hell i go.............every criminal must be punished.............every crime must be accounted for.............if not, then God is "winking" at sin and crime and criminals and corruption.

my sins have hurt people, and those people that got hurt,...they have rights...........God identifies with those hurt people.

I am to love all, even the sinner.

It is very deep the answer is to the query of love to the sinner as much as love to the saint. First let me say 'God so loved the WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' Is that Kosmos? The globe? You were NOwhere when this globe was created. Why oh why does every question every query every statement thing that comes out of every mortal human mind mouth turn into you as a subject? WHO ARE YOU?

PRAISE THE GOD OF ALL CREATION AND HIS WORLD! THIS IS HIS WORLD!

Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do do all to the glory of God!
When I was a child, I thought as a child; but when I got older, I threw away the childish things.

Jesus commanded that we love our enemies.
The Bible says that if one is not with God they are against Him.
Therefore, our enemies are those who are not with God;
our enemies are those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior and repented of their sins. Therefore, we are to love those who have not accepted Jesus.
We are to love those who have not repented of their sins.

What's the mystery?

I'm not quite so sure about that C.



Did God harden the Pharaoh’s heart?
(KJV, Exodus 9:7), "And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened,(3513) and he did not let the people go."

(KJV, Exodus 9:34), "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened (3513) his heart, he and his servants."

(KJV, Exodus 10:27), "But the LORD hardened (2388) Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go."

Strong's H3513 kabed - A primitive root; to be heavy, that is, in a bad sense (burdensome, severe, dull); causatively to make weighty (in the same two senses): - abounding with, more grievously afflict.

Strong's H2388 – chazaq - A primitive root; to fasten upon; hence to seize, be strong (figuratively courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain

Same English word “harden”, but 2 different words/meanings in Hebrew.

Pharaoh hardened his heart by being in rebellion against God. (Every time we rebel against God our heart is hardened a bit more) But it got to a point where God decided enough was enough and He hardened Pharoah's heart.... seized it up solid, and irreversible (by man).




The same sun that hardens the clay also melts the wax. The clay responds to the sun by hardening, while the wax responds by softening. It's the condition of the heart that determines whether or not it hardens or softens.

Hebrews 4:7 says, "Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts." When God speaks to us and we obey Him, our heart remains soft. However, each time He speaks and we refuse to listen, our hearts get harder. When God spoke to Pharaoh and he refused to yield, his heart became hard.

Suppose you told an atheist, "Jesus loves you." The atheist responds, "You make me so mad!" Who mad him mad? In one sense, you did-by speaking words he didn't want to hear. In another sense, he made himself mad-by resisting the message. In the same way, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart by speaking words he didn't want to hear, and Pharaoh hardened his own heart by resisting the message.

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God Does Not Love Everyone!, God's "unconditional love" is a myth.
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no disrespect but that's not the JESUS ive been made aware of.

Please read the many verses that i posted at the first of this thread.

God does not love everyone according to the bible.




yes WE are to love all.....but God can "hate" righteously! Since He sees all and knows all, He is perfectly Holy...he can judge in righteousness where WE can't. We would be hypocrites but God can "Hate" with certainty of righteousness. Hate is not evil....to hate sin or wickedness or lying, or rape or stealing is a good thing. God hates evil and all workers of it. Otherwise he would be wicked to love the wicked.

As long as we remember to love everyone. It's not my place to say what God can and cannot do. It is my place to try and heed His word, which is to love everyone. By going around saying "God does not love you," to people, we are in turn not showing them the love they need to find Christ.

But to say, "God loves you" when He doesn't is to LIE about God.

"I hate all workers of iniquity"

God
Psalm 5:5

I read through all and this is the best answer and it makes sense.

God in fact does say that :Rom 9:13 Even as it is written, Jacob (Our spiritual, reborn man, Christ IN Us ) I loved, but Esau (The fleshly old man,) ) I hated.

So it was an act of love, that sent Jesus into a world of people that were all lost and fleshly (all flesh is hateful to God) to redeem them, so that , that which God loves (Christ) could be born in them, and manifest through them. Christ in us the hope of glory.

God does not love our fallen natures. He loves our born from above nature.....Christ.
He did however have mercy on us, when we were still in our sins. THAT was an act of love. But that love, is not a mushy feeling from God towards all sinners. He hates the flesh and sin. He is righteous and can ONLY love your born from above, Christ in you.

C

Agreed, so instead of running around the streets shouting "God hates fags," or any other ridiculous hateful slogan "Christians" can come up with, perhaps we should be spreading the gift that God has given us all. Instead of saying "God loves you" (which would be a lie), or "God does not love you" which would drive them away from Him, perhaps we should share that God would love them if they would only accept this gift. Man cannot repent if he does not understand the gift first. Spread the Word in a loving way, that's all I ask.

- Brian

Amen, Brian....My point in the thread is to agree with scripture about the love of God. I would never run around with signs that are negative in nature because we are called to preach the Good News.....but I know God expects us to read the bible in agreement and call black, black and white, white even when it rubs up against OUR sense of right and wrong or our sense of what "Love" is..... we must come to terms with the fact that those who God loves are all ultimately IN Christ...the rest are outside of His love according to the scriptures and we should be aware of this and respect it.

I just don't want to say God loves something that He actually hates.

For example...God loves the sinner but hates the sin. This is soooo false and a creation of man's intellect. There is not one scripture that ever says this anywhere in the bible yet so many quote this nonsense as if it's the golden rule.

Brother Jon,

I better understand what you were doing now. Thank you.

I'd like to add another layer now, if I may. We know from Psalm 5:5 that God hates all who do iniquity. I believe that this means God may hate each individual lost sinner, but I don't believe He hates the world as a whole.

Remember that in John 3:16, Jesus tells Nicodemus that God loves the world! Romans 5:6 says that Christ died for the ungodly. Did God send His only Son to die for those he loathes? What are your thoughts?

- Brian

...God loved the world that he sent Christ who died for all (of mankind). God did not have Christ die for those he loathes, but for those he loves

Christ has saved the sinner. The sinner is all of mankind.

And all who Christ had died for will confess Christ as Lord. All of man of every tongue, of every nation.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


How can God love the world and yet if we do we become His enemy?


I see this as God being the husbandman of the vineyard. He loves the "world" for what fruit it will produce...those who will bear the fruit of Christ. He demonstrated this love by giving us His Son as a propitiation for our sins. However, MOST will reject Jesus and spit in His face, live for the flesh, commit gross sin, fornication, witchcraft, murder...on and on. God will punish them for eternity in a unimaginable manner of being burned over and over again...the smoke of their torment will rise FOREVER in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels. (Rev. 14)

Those who try to state that God still loves them as they roast in the lake of fire are truly confused. Does God love Satan or his children? No....he will torment them in flames for all eternity.

What will happen to the "world" at the end? When you say world do you mean all humanity or the actual planet? The earth will be burned and devastated.........as far as humanity...God hates Esau who represents carnal, unregenerate humanity that sells the birthright for flesh. So...if friendship with the "world" makes you an enemy of God....that should make you think that God doesn't love the world in that sense.

Look at ruth...see had a kinsman redeemer in Boaz...additionally, Elijah was sent to the woman in Zerapath, Naaman was cured of leprosy, Jonah went to Ninevah....

There are several examples, including the Queen of Sheeba but they had to come to Him as prescribed by the law of Moses....

We even see at the intertestemental period people who sought God, as Philip met the Ethipoian who knew the law of Moses and was converted

Man is man, flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit.

Christ died as a man in flesh, and was resurrected. This is the Lord's righteousness to do what no one else can do; to judge, and to purify. His purpose was man for man, not spirit for spirit, and his purpose is to glorify God, for God is Christ, the Father and the Son are the same.

This means Christ did not die to save the spirit, which means Christ did not die for the angels, which also means Christ did not die for any evil or unclean spirit. And certainly this means that Christ did not die for satan either, because satan is a spirit as well as his children.

The children of satan are spirits, not flesh. The flesh will die and perish, but each person will give up the ghost when they die. Every person will face judgement, every person will be tried with fire that is like brimstone, and every person will confess Christ as Lord.

Brimstone is a mixture of burning sulphur, sulphur was used to cleanse in the earlier times. Look it up, it was an aniseptic.

Some will be able to withstand the fires well some will not and suffer terribly with shame and pain.

But at the end of it every tongue will confess, every knee will bow and every tear will be wiped away.

And there will be many appointed beneath the fewer, and there will be even fewer appointed beneath the few, but all will have a place.

Christ died and was resurrected to glorify God, himself, and he shall do this by judging and purifying, but he shall save all of man.

Be happy that you believe in Christ for you'll have a great inheritance, but do not be tempted to damn another man, after all Esau and Jacob were both men and brothers, and Jacob did love Esau at the end. They even wept over each other.

Love HB

So then you believe that John 3:16 is a falsehood?

We're just bickering here. We're throwing up seemingly contradictory verses instead of trying to work together to figure out how they can coexist, which we know they do.

In James 4:4, the Greek says 'philos einai', which means to lust after. Regardless, are we not told by Jesus to love our enemies? In Luke 6:27, the same Greek word for 'enemy' is used as is in your verse, however the word for love is not 'philos einai', as it is, but 'agapate', which suggests a much stronger love. Agape is stronger than Philadelphia. Just some observations...

Thoughts?

God is Love....but can we truly understand the love of God. how He loves?? I think this is one of those things that we will know when we are reunited with our Father. For now we can only know what it means for us to love and that God has commanded us to do so.

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So then you believe that John 3:16 is a falsehood?


Thoughts?
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No bickering here, Brian. Just discussing. The bible is true and doesn't contradict itself. Look carefully at John 3:16.

For God so loved the world THAT He gave His only begotten Son That whosoever would believe on Him would not perish but have everlasting life.

What happens to all those who DO NOT BELIEVE is my question, Brian.

Does God love them? As they burn in fire for eternity, does God love them?

If we say "God loves the whole world" or "God loves everyone" we are incorrect. How can God love those whom He is tormenting in agony for eternity? Those who say God loves the world in that sense cannot be correct and they are guilty of attributing a false kind of love for the wicked to a Holy God. That's my point. It's a false statement about God that the church in general propagates in opposition to clear scripture.

Psa 5:6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Just look at how much God loves everybody.....so much that they are tormented day and night forever and ever.

We must line-up with the scriptures and agree with God. He hates all workers of iniquity. That's why we must repent and be born again.

I agree, Brother Jon. I guess I mean God's love for everyone in a different way. I believe that God wishes everyone to repent and be born again. God loves everyone in the sense that He wants them all to become disciples of Christ and accept His gift.

Those that die not believing in Christ are shown the Lord's mercy still. He has a place for them but it is not a place of eternal torment.

Read in Revelation where they go for they are appointed beneath those who have received Christ.

Would you mind referencing for me please? I can't seem to find it. I haven't studied Revelation in quite some time!

- Brian

Yes, i would like to see the scripture for that doctrine, bob. Are you referring to purgatory? My understanding is that there are 2 places.....heaven or hell which is later thrown into the lake of fire.

Dear Brian, that is your clue. Those who have not believed Christ are place beneath the believers in Heaven.

The ground is where I stand; it is not placed above my head but is beneath my feet.

Read Revelation again and see where the multitude shall stand. That is your clue.

It seems you're referring to the abyss mentioned in Rev 20:3, possibly the same bottomless pit as in 9:1. Isaiah 14:12-17 seems to speak about Satan as well, but it may not. Anyhow, where is the indication that the abyss, the bottomless pit, and Sheol are all the same?

The truth is this.....you either bear fruit and are chosen of God...or you don't bear fruit and are cut down and thrown into the fire to be burned. No one can bear fruit outside of faith in Christ.