This is simply to air what I have learned about this mystery known as the male child of the bible book Revelation.

The first thing I now know is that all prior bible commentary about this male child is in error. Nearly all see him as Christ Jesus which this book being a prophecy of things yet to come, thus does not look backwards to reveal things we already know, but into the future as yet pertaining to the unknown. The closer we get to these prophecies being fulfilled the more clearly we all should be able to see these things mentioned as becoming a reality.

Back in May of 1953 the male child of bible prophecy was found. The Roman Catholic Church had a very large reward offered for the descovery of a special spiritually gifted male that at that time should still be a very young child. It was not revealed that they were simply following bible prophecy about this special child being born of Jewish stock and rightful blood heir to the Davidic throne. From that time to the present he has been a very highly guarded secret of not only the Catholic church but by the various world leaders as well.

In the late sixties I was drafted an assigned to work in Secret Operations here in the United States and elsewhere around the world. Once again this issue of the male child was revealed to me as he also worked in Secret Operations as well, then being known as the world's best operative. He still does to this day, however on an independant bases. I just didn't get to learn about him, I actually got to know him personally and still do. Back than it just didn't mean all that much to me as I was not at all that well informed as to his very special standing as the male child of the bible. Several years ago I developed heart failure an actually died and was of course revived and began a more serious interest in my own personal relationship with God and his word, the bible. I had real problems as most everyone else does with bible prophecy and God's words of Revelation. God than had me recall what I had learned about this male child as a small child myself and how I had gotten to know him while in the service as well. That is simply how I became aware of this male child's importance. All bible commentary stated once again that this was Christ Jesus. God simply allowed me to see how the prophecies that pertain not only to the advent of His only begotten son, Christ Jesus, were mistakenly overlooked as pertaining to this male child as well. This was something the Roman Catholic Church knew and on high, and very few others as they always kept this as most secret. Going back through all these prophecies everyone else states that they pertain to Christ Jesus and to Christ Jesus alone I could than more clearly see how they do differ as to Christ Jesus and the Male Child. Both seem very much the same until you know that one, Christ Jesus is the first to come to establish His Kingdom of Heaven. The second, Male Child, advent is prophecied for these last days and the Davidic Kingdom to be established upon this earth. This Davidic Kingdom upon this earth is patterned after Christ Jesus's Kingdom of Heaven.

As I now read through all these prophecies of both the old and new testament about these two more clearly seen kingdoms of God, one in heaven and the other established upon this earth, I also see the distiction between Christ Jesus and this Male Child as well. Christ Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Male Child is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Christ Jesus is the only begotten son of God who's kingdom is of heaven. The Male Child is an adopted son of God via the blood of the Lamb, Christ Jesus and flesh and blood heir to the throne of David, just as God had promised that there would always be an especially in these last days.

The bible book Revelation clearly states in chapter twelve that as Israel becomes a nation once again, a flesh and blood heir to the throne of David will be born as well. As prophecy has clearly stated, the Male Child would be a spiritually gifted man of war, unlike the peace and love of God, Christ Jesus. God will establish the Kingdom of David upon this earth by force, the tribulation is all about God fulfilling His words of prophecy and promise. The Church Age ends with the post-tribulation rapture. The Davidic Kingdom of God upon this earth, thus begins as per all of God's words of prophecy and promise. The Male Child is a Messianic Jew of the tribe of Judah with many spiritual gifts and a man of war, just like King David. This Male Child is known in Gods' words of the bible by many names. Male Child, Prince of Israel, Son of God, Son of Man, Restrainer, Sword of God, Lord of Righteous, King of Kings of this earth and Lord of Lords of this earth, and many more.

The importance of knowing just who the Male Child is does make a great deal of differance. If you are one expecting Christ Jesus to return in the flesh, you will be most easly lead astray by another with supernatural gifts claiming to be Christ Jesus though he is nothing other than an Anti-Christ. In these last days, Satan and all those that are his will be cast to the earth. Many flesh and blood people will become demonically possessed and display supernaural abilities and as I expect and all others as well should, claiming to be Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus returns in the clouds that His "GLORY" creates for those that are His to be raptured into heaven. The Male Child is a flesh and blood human being with supernatural gifts from God to exercise God's righteous judgments upon this earth and to establish his kingdom upon this earth for the glory of God. Don't expect this Male Child to answer your call, call upon God and God alone as Father, Son and Holy Spirit to answer all your prayers. The Male Child will be found as supernatural protection for all of Israel, the land and it's people, as God's words foretell. The exact idenity of the Male Child isn't important as God's words clearly states he has a name nobody knows but God. What is important to know is that a flesh and blood heir of the throne of David will be and is now present and preparing to establish God's kingdom upon this earth by supernatural force. That is all.

Friend, if he had no nail prints in his hands and feet, he is merely a fraud. When Christ returns, as recorded by the Prophet Zechariah, they will ask Him, "What are these wounds in your hands." The only Jesus Christ will be the One Who bears these marks.

No matter who this 'male child' you met was, he WAS NOT our Lord.

You just happen to hit upon the very lie that my post is trying to dispel. Christ Jesus in never coming back in the flesh ever again, in any form or fashion. The Male Child as I so clearly stated is just a flesh and blood servant of the Lord and God of All. Any who are expecting Christ Jesus to return in the flesh are simply setting themselves up to fail as any who present themselves as such will most easily lead them astray. A flesh and blood heir to the throne of David is just that, flesh and blood. True, he will possess many spiritual gifts, though he is just a servant of the Lord and God of All. In no way, shape or fashion is he ever to be considered any form of God other than as God himself has so clearly stated, this Male Child will be ever so much be like his only begotten son, Christ Jesus. Now being ever so much like Chris Jesus is God's high call for all of us to attain to. That does not make anyone God, only like a true child of God, as we all should be. The only time anyone should be looking and watching for the return of Christ Jesus is in the clouds of "His Glory" at the post-tribulation rapture. Never ever in the flesh again. If you are still expecting that to be a reality, you will most easlily be lead astray by any and all false christs.

To say that either the first white horse or second white horse rider of Revelation is Christ Jesus is all part of this very same lie from the pit. This is only presented by those trying to lead you astray and even make God out to be a liar as it just doesn't happen. Look into the true character and nature of God and see for yourself. Christ Jesus if the fullness of God, who knows no sin, in whom there is no darkness only light and this pure light being love. Where do you get Christ Jesus in the flesh or any other way jumping on a horse and riding off to kill and destroy His creation? From the pit!

When someone is so far away from truth, how can anyone bring them back to the truth?

The things that you have posted here, are really fantasy and I just dont see any sound doctrine at all.

A lot of you just giving an opinion (that is really reaching the limits of reality) without any foundation of
scripture.

Please, In the name of the Lord, Jesus, seek Him and His righteousness and let Him lead you into ALL truth.

In CHrist,
Chris

To the originator of this post:

All can be assured that the "male child" in Revelation 12 describes the Lord's first advent ..... and He is coming back to this earth to rule His millennial kingdom in person. I could post Scripture after Scripture refuting any other ideas.

You are either misinterpreting the Bible and not realizing it, have been mislead by others, or you are purposly creating deception for some reason. I hope it is not the last motivation for your sake. What you have suggested sounds very much like a scoffer of the last days.

I agree with Stephen.
This is wacky stuff. The book of Revelation describes events in the past in order to identify the entities which take pivotal roles in the future. Trying to argue that everything described in the book is futuristic completely isolates the book from history and the events of the past. The book of Revelation is the culmination of great events which have occurred in the past.

The man child has the following characteristics
1. Is born of a wonderful woman of Israel
2. Is born with a destiny to rule the world with a rod of iron.
2. An evil Satanic possessed individual tries to destroy him at birth.
3. The evil one fails and the man child is caught up into heaven.

Now these are all past events which identify Jesus Christ. Which other individual in all history meets these criteria.
We have seen two approaches on this forum with alternative viewpoints. The C'Jon camp believe that the man-child is an elite group of super christians which get raptured into heaven before the return of Christ. Now we have this new crackpot who claims that there is an individual super christian who will rule the world seemingly without the return of Christ. Surely we can all easily see the hideous error of his teaching.

So hopefully those endowed with a grain of good sense and a healthy respect for the teachings of the church and the most straightforward of interpretations of the scripture will conclude happily and without controversy that the man-child describes Jesus Christ.

Having identified Christ as the man child we can then interpret the rest of the imagery in the vision. The mother of the man-child lives on and is pursued by that same dragon who tried to kill the man-child. Now many in the Catholic church believe that the Rev 12 woman is Mary glorified in heaven but they also teach that the glorified woman in heaven is the personification of, the symbol of, the type of Israel and the Church. This makes sense because even if we forget about Mary for a minute. How could a glorified woman in heaven be worried about dangers here on earth. She would have no need to escape into the wilderness. So clearly the glorified woman in heaven represents the church here on earth.
Doctrinally the church as our mother is easily established. It is also easily established doctrinally that Mary is our mother.
Mary was the mother of Christ. The church is the body of Christ. Therefore Mary is the mother of the church. Simple logic.

So Mary and the church share this identity as described in Rev 12. If we are squeemish about this notion that there is an actual woman glorified in heaven, then that is fine too. We can conclude that the woman is just a vision and not really a woman, but either way the woman (real or simply a vision) represents the church. Now since Jesus got caught up into heaven, when did the church flee into the wilderness and get fed by God for 3.5 years? NEVER. So therefore we know that this is a future event and that all ensuing comments in the story are also future events.
4. The mother flees into the wilderness. The organised and visible church flees toward a place of safety in the wilderness. As this happens
5. A massive war occurs in heaven and Satan is overthrown so that he may no longer accuse Christians before the throne of God.
6. At his defeat Satan tries to attack and overcome the fleeing Church but by miraculous supernatural intervention she reaches the place of safety and is fed and guarded there for 3.5 years.
7. During that 3.5 years while she is being protected OTHER christians who for some reason were not part of the organised church evacuation become the target of the Satan. These seperated Christians who have the testimony of Jesus suffer unparrallelled persecution during the Great Tribulation and we learn in other parts of Revelation that many are beheaded and die for their faith.

I urge everybody to remain faithful to the church and stay embedded in the body of Christ. Do not be led astray and become individual Christians or seperated brethren in fringe sects of Christianity. We must pray that we are worthy to escape. Part of being worthy is being faithful church attenders honouring and obeying our church leaders who are given the responsibility of guarding our souls. When the call to evacuate came to ancient Israel it came from God's annointed minister Moses. It will be the same in the last day. The alert will be given to an anointed leader of the church. Just as God gave Israel wings of a great eagle to escape into the wilderness, he will do the same for the church in the last day. As Israel huddled in the wilderness waiting the call of the deliverer Jesus (Greek for Joshua). So too will the church huddle in the wilderness awaiting the trumpet call of the deliver Jesus. Let us all prepare for that day. Let us warn watch and encourage each other not with fantastic and fanciful tales which lead people astray, but rather with the time honoured teachings of the church and plain and sensible interpretations of scripture which are in alignment with the church teachings.

EX,

Agreed. Good post .... very solid thought and insight. The "male child" is the Lord and Revelation does have historical "reach backs" for giving the reader overview linked to the future events that are recorded. This structure is present in a number of Revelation's passages.

I would have to say though that the woman of Revelation 12 is not the church. but national Israel, and it is the believing remnant of the nation that will flee from "Judea" into the eastern wilderness at the time of the end. They will do this to escape the invasion of Israel by satan's beast and followers and will be protected in the wilderness by the Lord. This is a different subject for discussion.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Anyone can read the letter of a parable..........it takes revelation from God to see the Spiritual truth. Religion is bondage and Mary is not the mother of the church. The catholic "mary" is none other than Ishtar-Isis-Inanna-Diana-Semiramis from Babylonian Goddess worship. Ancient fertility rites with the image of madonna and child date back to the tower of Babel. She is called Asherah in 1 Kings 18...the "Queen of Heaven" is condemned by God in the scriptures.....

Also- Israel NEVER clothed themselves "with the sun"....the woman is the true church that brings Mature disciples to fruition- the 144,000 are this body- the first fruits--Christ in His Body made up of thousands as the scriptures teach.....sad that so many are in bondage to Babylonian false religion. God calls His people OUT...to come OUT of HER......The Popes support the New World Order--they support evolution--they hide homosexual pedophiles and pay hush money----wickedness. Come out of HER and be separate.

Anyone can read Hislop's Two Babylons and come to this conclusion. And anyone with a fair mind can refute Hislop's Two Babylons. Revelation from God is not required in either instances. Simply a studious and impartial mind is all that is required.

Here is an excellent apologetic which refutes the work of Hislop.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/were_cat...tholic%20Church

and this one discusses Mary and pagan goddesses.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_a_pagan_goddess.htm

This one clearly shows that the founders of the reformation also did not think for a minute that Mary was Semiramis or Ishtar.
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm

From my research it seems clear that the first person to come up with this idea was Hislop himself 1400 years AFTER this prepostorous conspiracy was supposed to have occurred.

If ever I have read anything that describes the root of the problem of religion in the institutions it will be this line above in red .

I will print it and use it when I teach.Man deciding that he is in no need of help from God to understand the Bible. Man falling back onto man. Man being confidant in the flesh. Man using his intellect only. Man being good enough. Works of man.

And then they still ask: Why oh why is the church in error?

C

Stephen says;



It's a given. Why the mystery? It's not hard to see it...

Steady on C. I agree that the Bible requires spiritual discernment of the Holy Spirit to understand it.
I was not talking about the Bible though was I. I was talking about Hislop and C'Jons conclusions drawn by comparing pagan worship to catholic worship. These conclusions are easily refuted by an impartial study of history and require no biblical interpretation or spiritual insight whatsoever.

We could easily resort to a secular historian in such matters.

The doctrines of the church however come by the Holy Spirit teaching truth to men of God. Understanding and belief of the scriptures and the doctrine of the church also come entirely from the Holy Spirit. They are divine revelations and are received by faith which is a spiritual gift from God and do not come from the exercising of our intellect.

There is no matter that relates to the gospel that we can work out for ourselves. Look at Miki above and the glib statement about something that she has no idea about.
But let me rather leave, because I am covering this with scripture in my thread.
C

Your interpretation of my response shows me your not hearing right.

So let me step aside while you continue to complicate something simple for everybody...

Really? You find that Christ has a body made up of millions of believers complicated? O.K. The first fruits can only be that IF CHRIST IS DWELLING IN THEM. ERGO- the Man-Child- Christ in His corporate body ALL over the WORLD> Sorry...I find the other explanations on this thread much more convoluted and scripture-less.

The truth will become evident as time passes.

As you are waiting to be raptured, how many bodies must fall, bombs explode, diseases kill, storms devastate, earthquakes shake the earth until you'll admit you were wrong and had been lied to?

Funny how the Chinese Christians are suffering at this moment...where is their rapture? Oh yeah, they aren't AMERICAN Christians....lol.

"Also- Israel NEVER clothed themselves "with the sun"....the woman is the true church that brings Mature disciples to fruition- the 144,000 are this body- the first fruits--Christ in His Body made up of thousands as the scriptures teach.....sad that so many are in bondage to Babylonian false religion. God calls His people OUT...to come OUT of HER......The Popes support the New World Order--they support evolution--they hide homosexual pedophiles and pay hush money----wickedness. Come out of HER and be separate."

My comments:

National Israel and the Church are presented separately and differently in the Scriptures for the Lord's purposes. Replacement theologies of some Christian organizations have changed this truth for their own ambitions. By doing this they will never understand the prophetic Scriptures correctly. Isaiah 11:11-12, Ezekiel 36,37,38,39; All of Daniel's visions, Zechariah 12,13,14, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation 7:1-8, 12, 14:1-5, are some of the key passages of Scripture that must be applied to national Israel for the time of the end. The Church is presented in key passages of Scripture as follows: Matthew 25:1-13, Revelation 2-3, 4:4, 5:9-10, 7:9-17, 11:1, 12:12, 19:1-9, 19:14. Revelation presents the Church in heaven (immortal state) in all of these verses beginning in chapter 4. The Church will be in heaven viewing the tribulation events on the earth. The mortals of national Israel will be in the tribulation on the earth during the 70th week decreed for nation along with the unbelieving in the other nations.

I would also say that the concept of the RCC being the "woman" of Revelation 17 and 18 is shallow and falls dramatically short of the true meaning of this symbol of "MBG". She is much more as evidenced by the entire behavior of unbelieving humanity, past present , and future. False religion is only a part of her make-up and it also includes many other perverted theologies like Islam for example. There are scads of others that fall into the same catagory including some protestant denominations of "Christianity". All are off track in many ways, but so are those humans who believe nothing and are also self indulgent. Humans began to build cities just after the flood and this type of human organization against the Lord is always the core of human intransigence that drives the empire. Just think about it. The "woman" (intransigent lost human civilizations), the kings, the politicans, and the businessmen of the earth all dance together against the Lord. This picture is summed up in revelation 18. And it is satan and his agents (other fallen angelics like the beast) who relish in taking advantage of this lost condition of humanity and play the music for the purpose of ultimately destroying the human spirit in one way or another in a futile dance to extinction.

Many Christian religious organizations unfortunately have been taught to pin the apostate tail on the other folks across the street .... and national Israel as well. As a result they become indoctrinated with the organization's views of what the Bible "says" and their interpreted views are clouded by their "our dog is better than your dog" attituded. Many of these exclusive religious clubs have doctrines of misinterpretation of the Scriptures because of this behavior. One must approach the Scriptures without this type of docternal baggage if they want to understand the Lord's communication to humans through His Word. It takes time and effort on the part of the seeker, no short cuts, and the guidance of the Lord's Holy Spirit to reach a high level of understanding, and this can be accomplished. The true believer who follows the Lord with the right motivations will do this rather than following the dogmas of men. One must focus upon His Word and ask Him for understanding and He will give it to you.

I believe this...even if it's only one bite at a time..When the holy Spirit is revealing it makes you hungry for more...The Holy Spirit speaks plain.

I remember when you presented Israel and the Church as seperate entities before Stephen.
It helped.

I not trying to over symplifiy. The first time l recall reading this portion of scripture... listening.... It's the first idea that came into my mind.

Miki,

Actually the understanding of a separation in Scripture between national Israel and the Church is quite simple just as you state, but very necessary for the serious student of Bible prophecy. The absence of this basic precept has and will cause much confusion if one is attempting to grasp the Lord's view of this truth. He has made this separation for His purposes.


Here is Ray Stedman's commentary and he is correct. Not only are the symbols used Scripturally based, but the action verses of Revelation 12 ID this "woman" as national Israel.

WOMAN AND THE SERPENT
by Ray C. Stedman

If any of you are immigrants to this country and you entered through the port of New York, you will remember that the first sight you had of this land was of a great statue of a woman holding a torch in her upheld arm. That was not an advertisement for underarm deodorant! It was the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of the freedom that America enjoys. Chapter 12 of the book of Revelation also opens with the symbol of a woman. In fact there are three symbols here: The woman, her son, and a great red dragon. It is our business this morning to try to interpret these and to understand what John was shown in this vision.

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. (Revelation 12:1-6 NIV)

The question that leaps at us from these verses is, "What is meant by these great signs? What or whom do they symbolize?" Two of them are relatively easy to identify, and once we find who those two are the third one will be unmistakable. The dragon is the easiest to identify, because later, in Verse 9, we are told exactly who he is. The verse says, "The great dragon was hurled down -- that ancient serpent called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world astray." Here, then, is the devil, appearing as a great red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns upon his heads. We are also told that he is the ancient serpent, the very one who appeared in the Garden of Eden to Eve, deceived her, and introduced sin into the human race. He appears here as a dragon, which is simply a super-serpent and a symbol of satanic worship in many countries of the world yet today. His work is described also in Verse 9: The entire career of the devil is engaged in deceiving the whole inhabited earth, i.e. lying to the human race. We will see much more of this as we go on in this book.

The male child that is born to the woman is the next easiest to identify because we are told in Verse 5 that he is the one "who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter," or "a rod of iron." Many of you will recognize that the latter phrase is taken from the Second Psalm, which is quoted or referred to four different times in Revelation. In some ways Psalm 2 is the basic Scripture out of which the whole book is expanded and grows. The psalm speaks of God establishing his kingdom on his holy hill of Zion: "I will set my King on my holy hill of Zion" (Psalm 2:6 KJV), and "he will rule the nations with a rod of iron," (Psalm 2:9 KJV). Clearly that is a reference to our Lord Jesus.

The reference to a rod of iron always indicates a millennial scene, the thousand-year reign of Christ on earth. He reigns with a rod of iron (with strict justice), because, though it is a time of worldwide blessing and prosperity and the curse is at least partially removed from nature, it is also a time when sin is still manifest to some degree. Righteousness reigns in the earth, but it has to be enforced. We will see more of that too as we go on in this book. When we come to the new heavens and the new earth, which John will be shown in the closing two chapters of this book, then Christ no longer reigns with a rod of iron because sin has been fully dealt with; nothing evil will enter that scene at all. There he appears as a tender, loving Shepherd, ministering to his people personally and showing great kindness to them.

This brings us to the identity of the woman. Who is this strange woman who appears clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and twelve stars in a crown around her head? The Roman Catholics say it is Mary, since she was the mother of Jesus, as this account shows the symbolic woman to be. But the problem with that theory is that there is no way you can fit Mary into Verse 6! There we learn that "the woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days." That never happened to Mary, and it never will. This is not a picture of an individual but rather of a group of people.

Some commentators say she symbolizes the church. The church is pictured at the close of Revelation as the bride of Christ, i.e. as a woman. But it is impossible for this woman to represent the church because the church did not produce Jesus. It is quite the other way around. It was the Lord who produced the church -- the church is born out of the wounded side of Jesus. Therefore that symbolism does not fit the picture here.

We must, therefore, look at the clues that are given us to know the identity of this woman. She is clothed with the sun, the moon is under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars around her head. The only other place where those three symbols are used together in this way is in Genesis 37, the story of Joseph as a young boy who has a dream. He dreamt one night that the sun, the moon and 11 stars came and bowed down before him. He made the mistake of telling his dream to his father and mother and his brothers, and they were very upset by it. His father rightly interpreted it to mean that Joseph was to be exalted in some way, and the whole family would come and bow down before him. We know from subsequent history that this actually did happen. Joseph became the second ruler of Egypt and his father and mother and his 11 brothers all came and bowed down before him.

It is clearly then a description of the nation of Israel. (Joseph would make the twelfth of the stars.) The Apostle Paul says of the Jews in Romans 9:5: "To them is traced the human ancestry of Christ." It was Israel that humanly brought forth the Christ. That is why Jesus told the woman at the well of Samaria, "Salvation is from the Jews," (John 4:22 KJV). It comes to Gentiles by that route. So the woman here is Israel, brought to prominence again. As one commentator well describes it, "Thus she is seen clothed with the glory of the sun -- that is of Christ himself as He will presently appear in supreme power as the Son of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2); for the sun is the ruler of the day. As a consequence, her glory of old before the day -- dawn, the reflected light of her typical system, is like the moon under her feet. Upon her head the crown of 12 stars speaks naturally of her twelve tribes, planets now around the central sun."

Thanks Stephen...You know l love reading Steadmen.

Stephen, How do you see the relationship between the Church and Israel?

SB,

The Church is composed of all true believers, Israelite or gentile, from the beginning of human existence without regard for ethnic lineage. There is no "nationality" differentiation in the Body of Christ. What the Lord has done is to create a total distinction between Israel and all other nations based upon national origin for His purposes in parallel with those who choose to walk with Him. This is still the case today and will be in the future. The thread of a separate national Israel runs throughout the Scriptures and the Lord does this for His purposes in His Word. It is imperative for the student of Bible prophecy to understand this truth for correct understanding and accurate interpretation. The Lord is the savior for the believer, Israelite or gentile, but He is also the king of national Israel and is an Israelite (by His humanity) Himself. One needs to know and recognize when the Scriptures pertain to national Israel and when they are about the Church. Otherwise failure to do this will cause much confusion about the interpretation of prophecy. It is one of the main reasons why there are so many different views today.

Thank you for your reply Stephen.

Thats a straight answer.

I agree with you, I believe the Church exists throughout time.

Why does everyone, including Steadman, say that it starts with the New Covenant?

SB,

Stedman is merely pointing out the further revelation of the understanding of the Lord's salvation and I am certain that he would agree with the fact that all humans who have chosen to walk with the Lord from the beginning of human existence in any period or age before their physical death are saved. Not sure who you mean by "everyone" would be that say otherwise, but all humans saved are part of the body of Christ regardless of which dispensational era they live in.

There will be those saved during the Lord's hour of trial and judgment that is coming upon an unbelieving world, but after the Church (Body of Christ) is made immortal. Those that choose to turn to the Lord during the period of the coming tribulation will not "technically" be members of the Church .... but they will be added to the Body of Christ and will be saved the same. Just a matter of timing.

Quite so Stephen. The difference is that prior to the New Covenant ONLY Jews had access to this gift of grace. For God to grant this gift of salvation to a gentile they had to first become proselytes, be circumcised and keep the Old Covenant laws in both the letter and in the spirit. God in those days dealt with a remnant of Jews who were faithful, believing and obedient. Today he deals with a remnant of all nations who are faithful, believing and obedient.

One point which you are missing is that these believing gentiles are grafted into the olive tree of Romans 9-11. What is that olive tree? It is Israel the descendants of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. They become the seed of Abraham not by natural birth and circumcision and the keeping of the national laws of Israel, but by exemplifying the belief and obedience of Abraham, by being children of promise after the example of Isaac, and also by being the children of Jacob who value the birthright and do not sell it for the trifles of this world. As children of Abraham Isaac and Jacob we are therefore twelve tribes as explained in James 1

Therefore the church worships the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
This principle is explained in
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder [3] shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

So we see in this we see that the younger Israel of the church is greater than the elder nation of Israel.

In Galatians we learn that national Israel is basically cast out and counted as the children of the bondwoman just as Abraham cast out Hagar and Ishmael whereas we are counted as the children of the freewoman after the example of Sarah and Isaac.
Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; [5] the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


Therefore we learn that the church has every bit as much right if not more to claim the heritage of Israel including the twelve star symbol of the woman in Rev 12 as national Israel does.

EX,

Correct and informative post.

I would say this: The gentiles are grafted in regarding salvation for as you state , but one must be careful to differentiate between national Israel and the Church (Body of Christ), composed of both Israelite and gentile, when the passages of visionary prophecy require it. This is necessary for correct understanding particularly when one is studying end time exegesis. For example, the woman of Revelation 12 is national Israel both historically and that which will exist at the time of the end during the 70th week decreed for the nation .... with a particular focus on the believing remnant part of the nation who will flee and will be protected in the wilderness from satan's invasion of the nation in the Middle East in the middle of the period.

Well, everyone is hyperbole Stephen.What I mean is that not many people seem to say that the Church of the New Covenant is rooted in the the Church of the Old Covenant.
This may well be to do with Bible Translations. Most translations translate ekklesia (Acts 7) 'the Church in the Wilderness' as something other than Church. Amazing how mistranslating 1 word can impact our understanding.

Read Genesis 12;1-8, and Genesis 15;18, and Genesis 17;8-14.

genesis 17;9-14.............Abe's descendants must keep the covenant by PHYSICAL circumcision.

if one fails to circumcize, the covenant is broken, and that individual is not PHYSICAL ISRAEL.

jjjjjjjjjjjjj

in the NT, Paul told us that SPIRITUAL circumcision is REQUIRED.........one must cut off the flesh (sinful desires and activities).

so, one is not SPIRITUAL ISRAEL unless he is SPIRITUALLY circumcized.........(a circumcision of the heart)


this is the difference between PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.




PHYSICAL ISRAEL must be a descendant of Abe, Issac, and Jacob (or a procelyte to the Jewish religion), and is not Christian., .........these people (in this day) are not saved from their sins..........they're not SPIRITUALLY circumcized...........they have not become christians (they've not accepted christ)

SPIRITUAL ISRAEL is , by definition, saved from their sins, and they are Christians , and can be Jew or Gentile (actually , there is neither Jew nor gentile IN CHRIST).............CHRIST has broken down the partition wall that separated the jew from the gentile

there is a wonderful unity of spirit and fellowship among christians, PTL!

I would agree with DM's view.

The "Church" is a new testament descriptive and subject, but the salvation of the believer is the same from the beginning and in all ages. The "Church" is a way of describing the Body of Christ which consists of all believers of both Israelite and Gentile (of the nations) from the beginning of human existence. The N.T. gives further revelation of the Lord's intentions, but salvation of the one who walks with the Lord has always been the same.

both OT and NT told us........LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF...........which is another way of stating the GOLDEN RULE.....do unto others as you would want them to do unto you...........sell all that you have and give all to the poor.....

so, from the LAW OF MOSES and forward, we've always known of God's perfect Intense Love.

Dennis says:



Thats absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to the OT Dennis.
The same was required of Israel.

You are caught in a circular loop here Stephen. On the one hand you argue that the woman must be national Israel because she has a 12 starred crown. Then when I show that the church has much right to claim the 12 starred heritage of Abraham Isaac and Jacob shown in the womans 12 starred crown you claim that she cannot be the church because the woman is national Israel. You have in fact NO evidence that the passages of visionary prophecy require an interpretation that the woman is national Israel.

Basically what you are showing in your posts is that this is simply your own personal interpretation that the woman is national Israel. The interpretation of the church which is clearly justifiable is that the woman represents an amalgam of Israel and the church both of which share the rich heritage and birthright of Abraham Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

The other logical brick wall that you run into with your interpretation is that you are forced into believing that the seed of the woman are Jews. But it says clearly that the seed of the woman have the testimony of Jesus. Therefore you are saying that this scripture only relates to believing Jews and that the words have no purpose for the large majority of Christians who are not Jews.

And what is a believing Jew who has the testimony of Jesus? They are CHRISTIANS and what are Christians members of? THE CHURCH. Therefore believing Jews are the seed of the Church AND Israel, which is exactly the interpretation which I am advancing which agrees with the interpretation of the church which I gave you in a link.

EX,

I disagree with your "circular" and "brick wall" stops. One must know when the Scriptures identify national Israel and when they identify the Church which has no national persuasion. The Lord does this in Scripture. The Church did not give birth to the Lord as you would have it and yes the woman is exactly the believing remnant of national Israel living in Israel (Judea) that will flee into the wilderness for protection at the time of the end. Most of the rest and larger portion of the nation will be killed by the beast and his followers in unbelief. Satan's beast and followers will invade and occupy the nation and the believing remnant will flee ..... this group is not the Church. The Church will not be living in Judea at the time. There will also be a portion of national Israelites living in the nations at the time. When the beast cannot reach those believing Israelites who will flee into the wilderness east of Israel for protection by the Lord from him, he will go after those Israelites who have become believers in the nations.

You are not identifying the difference between the Church and national Israel where it needs to identified in Scripture. This Body of Christ (the Church) of both dead and living believers at the time will be made immortal and taken to heaven prior to the 70th week decreed for national Israel (the tribulation period) and will not be on the earth. Once you discover this truth, if you do, you will then be able to reconcile the identification of the woman of Revelation 12. The other woman of Revelation is that of the gentiles as noted in chapters 17 and 18. This woman represents unbelieving humanity of the nations at the time of the end. You must understand that when the fullness of the gentiles are added to the Church, the Lord then will turn His attention to national Israel and will execute all of the 6 objectives for the believing remnant of the nation as stated in Daniel chapter 9 at the time of the end during the 70th week decreed. These actions will have nothing to do with the Church. You also need to remember that the Lord is an Israelite by His humanity and He is also the King of Israel. He will restore the kingdom to the nation and will rule the world from Jerusalem Himself on the earth for 1,000 years just after the tribulations of the 70th week decreed.

Hello I'm new here
and while thinking if I should register
and came over this writing.
I think it is possible to discuss whether the Gog/magog war is armageddon or not, this makes no harm
to the truth, to the essence of JC, to the essence of the Word.
But when someone writes this abomination about a male child waiting to go public it, and all this blessing this man has that was born in 1953, and the spirit that is behind this that JC will not come back in His Heavenly Body, but there is this Male Child needed then I must say there is the spirit of the antichrist, everybody that don't confesses that JC came the first time in the flesh, is missing something, there is only one Son of God, there is no spirit that used the man Jesus from Nazaret and then before his dying left him, this is so called Gnostik and is also from evil antichrist spirit. I hope this page is not catholic, as i grow up catholic, and left the catholic sect. A sect is in my opinion a church that believes things that are not in the bible, everybody knows what it is writen i the end of revelation, everyone that ads something to the bible, every church that brings new revelations is a sect and will be punished. All the nonsense about mary just to say one thing, the Son of God never grewing up, always a little baby in the arms of mother mary, is like the catholic sect never wanting to be juged by JC. mary went up, mary never sinned, mary was imaculated like JC, all things that will be punished, the Pope taking the work of the Holy Spirit, taking the place of the Holy Spirit here on earth, and know not Maitraya, no, another esoterik baby just for the catholic sect. The Second Coming of JC the same JC that was in the flesh 2000 years ago is our olny blessed hope, everybody born in the 19th-20th-or 21th century that makes any clame to be a son of god, will be of the antichrist spirit. As everybody knows: JC warned: look there he is, no there he is, is all wrong, HE comes back from heaven visible for all Kinds not with a helicopter not as a hologramm as the real JC that came before 2000 in the flesh, and before that He was with the Father for all time. JC never was not.

JLM, you said that this male child who is born amid satanic opposition as described in Rev. 12 is not Jesus, but some other who will rule over the house of David, and whom you know personally.

Then why does it say in the gospel of Luke about the birth of Jesus that HE, Jesus, will rule on the throne of David, (and not some other)?

Who should we believe, you or the bible?

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

You see, then, you are greatly mistaken. Such a doctrine that you describe will be used in the last times to deceive men into thinking that the antichrist is really the "man-child."

I implore you in the strongest terms to turn away from this thinking before it is too late, and to never see this man about whom you speak again. For he is an antichrist, although not likely the antichrist.

May God have mercy on your deceived soul!

The male child in Revelation 12 is the Lord for sure.

The Man-Child IS the Lord IN His corporate body. This is Christ ALL over the World in Thousands of Christians. Yes, it IS Christ....God's fruit is Christ IN US!!! So that He will have thousands of Christ Possessed Christians walking in power, unity, the Spirit, love, self-sacrifice...on and on...this is the whole purpose of the church!!! To yield the fruit of Jesus Christ in His BODY which is US.

Dear BrotherJon,

If so, how will you explain that the man child is born by the woman of Rev 12 IN HEAVEN after the birth of Jesus? You know that the Book of Revelation foretells things that would happen after the time of Jesus as man on earth.

By the way, how could the MAN CHILD, who was born by the woman IN HEAVEN, be caught up to God?

I ask these things because I know that it is possible to give a tenable answer only if the main conception of the meaning of the man child is biblically correct.

With sorrow in heart

PehJeshua

Dear BrotherJon,

I wonder why you don't answer the questions I put to you here. Aren't they important in your opinion? Let me tell you that there are clear answers in the Scripture to what I ask, only that most people don't realize that they are there for God's people to see.

Wiht sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Stephen - I agree with you, the man child is the Lord.
PehJeshua - You are correct in that He was not born in heaven...but the story was told in heaven long before He was born on earth.
BrotherJon - We are followers of the man child but we are not The Man Child. There is only One.



Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;


This is the story shown in the heavens that Father wrote in the beginning. The twelve stars of the zodiac telling the story of His birth:


The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth His handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge....The line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath He set a tabernacle for the sun. [Psalm 19:1-4]


Revelation 12:2.And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


This tells us of mother Israel, the twelve tribes (a woman with a crown of twelve stars) that will bring forth the Messiah. With that is the birth of a new age....salvation.


Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Two signs in heaven and they are in conflict. Two, as the fake christ and the True Christ, the bad figs and the good figs, etc.


Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


This speaks of two ages. The first, the one in which Satan rebelled and took 1/3 of God's children with him and our present second age....the one in which he tried to "devour her child." The child is Christ, the child of the tribes of Israel and Mary.


Revelation 12:5.And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.


He sits at the right hand of God. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; [Heb.2:14]


Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


The wilderness is America and other Christian nations...a place prepared of God, where the house of Israel - Christians are protected. One nation under God.


Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


The dragon comes to persecute Christians, the house of Israel that bought forth the man child.


Revelation 12:14.And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Two great eagle wings - our Father and His Word and they nourish us here in America, which is represented by a great eagle. They keep us, the house of Israel, from the face of the serpent....for a time.


Revelation 12:15.And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


The serpent casts out a flood of lies after the woman - the house of Israel, that he might deceive her. Much of this work is done from pulpits. Satan quotes the Bible but twists the truth.


Revelation12:16.And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.


Earth, the tribes of Israel, were made from earth - clay and soil. When you allow the Holy Spirit to settle in you - earth, you swallow it's lies. You get rid of his lies because you know truth. You know he is the fake.


Revelation 12:17.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The dragon is coming after the children of the woman, Israel...not the nation of Israel but the house of Israel, the 10 lost tribes. They are those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ....that can be no one but us, Christians. Both those of the physical lineage as well as those adoptive children.....all that follow Christ.


.......Whirlwind

My dear brother, you have to tell me one thing. This "Christ" that is living in you, is he Christ, or another christ. IS this Christ in you Jesus, or is he another?

C

The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter is part of us.


John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever.

26.But the Comforter, Which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

26.But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, Which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of Me:

16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.


It is His Spirit that is with us.


.......Whirlwind

Rev 4:1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

The 144,000 are the corporate man-child.

I don't understand the connection you are making BrotherJon. What does one have to do with the other?


.........Whirlwind

Yes that is true, but I answered you in another thread more fully.There are more scriptures that all talk about who we are in Christ. This is not the only Scripture. When we take all of these together, we will see a total picture forming.

I think BroJon was answering the thread in general and not something to you alone.

But what he said is true, Jesus told John about things that will come "hereafter" and then proceeds in Rev 12 to show John the man child and the woman on the moon: Thus :hereafter ! The woman on the moon is "hereafter" and not "before" (as many want us to believe. That view simply is not to be found anywhere) We HAVE to look at the woman on the moon as "hereafter" because Jesus says its "hereafter"

It is also a point a made in my other post and I saw GodpromisesRyes make the same point in one of her posts too, today. Three of us are making the same point on this forum today

C

I'm sorry...I shouldn't post such a short answer to this question without the full scriptural support. As C said...this CAN'T be Jesus because it's future from 96 a.d. and Jesus was a "sign" that pointed to this very thing...the birth of the first fruits (144,000) from the womb of the woman (church).

This "man-child" will do exactly what Jesus did in HIS earthly ministry which is----

1. Receive authority from God---(caught up to the throne)

2. Teach the TRUE Word of God to the true "church"---(the woman is nourished in the wilderness 42 months--3.5 years--just as Jesus did for his disciples)

3. Lay down their lives for the sake of others----(they walk as Christ walked...in holiness and obedience)

This is the truth of the Man-Child ministry. It follows the historic pattern of the ministry of Jesus Christ perfectly. As a matter of fact..it is Jesus continuing His ministry THROUGH these first fruits. Christ IN you the hope of glory.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me, which said, "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."


I see what you are saying in applying 4:1 to chapter 12 but to me He is simply laying the groundwork for what He is telling us in the 12th chapter. He tells us that the woman Israel, the 12 tribes, produced the child and the dragon stands before her to devour him. That prophecy was given in Gen. 3:15 and he has attempted to stop the line to Christ beginning with Eve.


Christ again goes back to the past in vs. 4 and 5:


12:4.And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven,, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


The rebellion of Satan happened long before the garden of Eden....in the first age and that was when he drew 1/3 of God's children. He has stood before the lineage of Christ since Eve to "devour her child as soon as it was born."


12:5.And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.


Only the King of Kings was caught up to God and now sits at His right hand:


Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


If the "child" that was caught up to God isn't Christ and is corporate then why or how was he/they caught up before end times? How could a corporate child be caught up before the woman goes to the wilderness. The timing is very confusing......unless, the man child (elect) and the child (Christ) are both spoken of in the same scripture.


But, in looking at the rest of Rev.12:5 there are two things I noticed. Christ tells us:


Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27.And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.


To me, that is the elect....those that overcome. Are the elect and the man-child one and the same?


Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he tht hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.


..........Whirlwind

Dear whirlwind,

Since you set about expounding scriptures that you don't understand, and thus distort what the Holy Spirit teaches, I feel bound to criticize you severely. How can you venture do thwart the word of God as you do? Don't you know that by doing so you incur heavy judgement upon your head and eternal condemnation? Or don't you fear God?

You wrote:


My answer:
What was told or not told in heaven long ago you need not pretend to know, coz the book of Revelation came long after the life of Jesus as man among men. Don't overstretch yourself!

You wrote:


My answer:
You are totally wrong, for the twelve stars have got nothing to do with the twelve stars of the zodiac, coz the woman clothed with the sun was the apostolic church that was later destroyed by the beast (Rev 13:7-8), and her crown of twelve stars is the true gospel and the twelve apostles. Heaven is the Holy Scripture, or the foundation of the church, and the moon is the Holy Law, which reveals the fallen nature in Man, which is spiritual night.

You wrote:


My answer:
Since you quote this scripture I will remind you of the fact that the heavens shall change according to Psalm 102:26, which means that in spiritual sense the heavens are covenants that change. Therefore the heaven in which the woman was seen is the the dispensation of the New Covenant that Jesus ushered in, and not the invisible eternal heaven of God.

You wrote:


My answer:
Again you twist Scripture here, for the book of Revelation foretells thing to come and not things that had already happened. Jesus was born before this scripture came, and the time of Israel and her "70 weeks" (Dan 24:9) had already endend, so this prophecy has got nothig to do with historical Israel. Therefore it is utter stupidity by you to say that the woman will bring forth the Messiah, and totally contrary to Holy Scripture.

You wrote:


My answer:
These two signs show what should happen in NT time, things that now are fulfilled, for after the woman that was the apostolic church there came a falling away, and thus came the beast and dragon and settle down on the holy place. This means that false teachers and churches came, after having destroyed the one and only true apostolic church, and settle on the foundation of Scripture, claiming to be of God. This happened spiritually, long after the physical death of Jesus Christ.

You wrote:



My answer:
When you read Isa 9:15 you will find these words: "the elders and prominent men are the head, the prophets who teach lies are the tail." Therefore, the tail of the beast or falsehood were and are the false prophets and teachers, for they lead people astray and into falsehood. When you read about the contents of the first three trumpets in Rev 8:7-10 you will see that at the sounding of each trumpet a third was destroyed, so when the third trumpet soundet the last 1/3 was destroyed of the apostolic truth. When this last third was gone the beast had won victory over the true apostolic church, so in this sense the tail of the beast cast the (last) third of stars to the earth. Thus was the falling-away total. Then started the time of the beast and should last for "42 months", that is, for 1260 years. At the end of this time Isa 11:1 and Zech 11:14 should come true, which means that there should come a man child from the roots of Jesus. When he comes the spiritual war will start against the beast and its falsehood, but in this world and on the foundation of Scripture. Therefore the beast tries to kill the man child. The child thus isn't Jesus himself but His spirit in the true witness whom Scripture calls The Man Child. He is the messenger who will be sitting with Jesus Christ on His throne to judge falsehood and condemn and destoy the realm of the devil. Jesus will come back in person on the very LAST DAY, so in the midst of NT he comes in a true witness spiritually. This is why you are wrong!

You wrote:


My answer:
It is evident that you don't understand this verse, for it foretells that the man child will be spiritually born by the true doctrine of the apostles, so this verse doesn't talk about virgin Mary and the birth of Jesus. Remember that the book foretells things to come and not things that already had happened.

You wrote:


My answer:
You are once again telling lies against Scripture, for the wilderness meant here is the Genile world, in which the falling-away had happened. There God has prepared her a place until Rom 11:25-27 is fulfilled. It means that when the time of the true church is at an end in the Gentile world because the Gentiles again reject the God the true church and doctrine will move back to Israel, from where it once came. This is the secret of which this verse speaks, so it has nothing whatsoever to do with America. You are distorting Scripture!

You wrote:


My answer:
No, you are wrong again! When the Christian church comes and wins its victory, it will remain in the Gentile world for about 1260 years. At the end of this time period the Gentiles will again reject God, and thus the dragon sees that it has been cast onto the earth. It then starts to persecute the Christian church and ompells it to flee the Gentile world and go to historical Israel, but there will be some left of the church in the Gentile world. This remnant of God's church Satan will persecute, though the main church, the woman, will be in Israel and out of the sight of satanic people.

You wrote:


My answer:
Notice that this is the second time that the woman, God's true church, flies into the wilderness. The church flies to Israel which until then has been like a wilderness since the Jews had not accepted Jesus Christ as their Messiah. The two wings are the two witnesses, and also the gospel and the law, that is all Scripture. So your are just distorting Scripture. The eagle is the fulfilling word and spirit of God, and it goes to Israel to fulfill what God has promised to people of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

You wrote:


My answer:
This verse speaks of physical persecution, for when the church feels compelled to leave the Gentile world the Gentiles will do their best like the Egyptians once did to hinder them from leaving for Israel. When that happens God will make a certain people help the church to fulfill its intention, so they succeed in arriving in Israel. The earth symbolizes a certain wordly people that will fulfill this prophecy, for God has chosen them to do so.

You wrote:


My answer:
As I said the earth is a worldly people, a nation, that pleads the cause of God's people, so the Gentiles won't be able to destroy them as they intend to do. You know from Rev 17:15 that according to God's angel the WATERS are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. Therefore, the Gentile world with all its multitudes and nations are the waters that start to hate God's woman. In spite of that, there will be a people of might that according to God's plan stops them from fulfilling what they want to do.

You wrote:


My answer:
You are just talking according to your flesh, for the remnant is, as I have said, those of the church, or woman, who for some reason don't leave the Gentile world. They will be persecuted and killed, and the spiritual night cover the pagan world for all eternity.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Peh---

Could you lighten up a bit? Sheesh! You are not reflecting the fruit of the Spirit in your post. A simple, "I disagree and here's why" would suffice. We are ALL learning on this forum...YOU don't have it all right either. How about a lil' kindness and decent discussion as opposed to calling someone's POV "stupidity" or "scripture twisting". I also disagree with most of Whirlwind's posts...but will attempt to do so in the right spirit.

You can be right and still be wrong, ya know.