I am sorry PehJeshua, I respect you , but you will not find many here that will agree with your view of the man child. I can see that you are very much convinced of what you believe, so I am not going to get into a debate about it. We are not called to prove anything.
BrotherJon, me and others seem to agree about the man child being Christ in the believer. Many scriptures tell us about the maturity of the believer that will come.

So from where I am standing , BrotherJon is in fact not telling lies about Scripture, but I also see it and understand it the way he tells it. I can only see this interpretation in the Scriptures. It makes sense and its not difficult to understand.

in Christ
C

Dear BrotherJon,

Since Jesus has been born in flesh already, before the book of Revelation, it definitely is stupidity to maintain that it will happen again, that is, doing so without any basis in Scripture. Distorting Scripture is the worst sin a person can commit against what is Holy. That is why I am harsh. God's wrath is heavy over this generation and shall be seen in the near future.

With sorrow in heart,
PehJeshua

quote name='PehJeshua' date='Dec 27 2007, 10:59 PM' post='138824']
[quote name='BrotherJon' post='138818' date='Dec 27 2007, 09:34 PM']
Peh---

Could you lighten up a bit? Sheesh! You are not reflecting the fruit of the Spirit in your post. A simple, "I disagree and here's why" would suffice. We are ALL learning on this forum...YOU don't have it all right either. How about a lil' kindness and decent discussion as opposed to calling someone's POV "stupidity" or "scripture twisting". I also disagree with most of Whirlwind's posts...but will attempt to do so in the right spirit.

You can be right and still be wrong, ya know.
[/quote]

Dear BrotherJon,

Since Jesus has been born in flesh already, before the book of Revelation, it definitely is stupidity to maintain that it will happen again, that is, doing so without any basis in Scripture. Distorting Scripture is the worst sin a person can commit against what is Holy. That is why I am harsh. God's wrath is heavy over this generation and shall be seen in the near future.

With sorrow in heart,
PehJeshua
[/quote]

I have never read that BroJon ever said that Jesus will be born again in flesh like He did through Mary.

I do know however that Christ will manifest Himself in His body . Read this and see how Jesus tells His disciples that they are the woman in travail , when they asked Him about His return.

He is trying to show them that they (the church / us ) are like a woman, and when the Word enters, its like a seed that will produce after its own kind. The church (like Mary) is receiving the Word of God and she is to bring forth Christ . We no longer live, but Christ lives in us.

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow (So here , they have sorrow, because they are this woman ), because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, (man child) she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow (again He is saying THEREFORE, because He is talking about THEM ): but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

I cannot believe that people can truly say that they cannot see this very simple picture in Scripture that Jesus is painting to the disciples.

He is saying: You , the church, is just like a woman in travail and you will see Me again, when you bring forth Christ in you. Then you will rejoice.

I’ve been reading this thread with interest. This is my opinion only, and is not meant to offend anyone or call out anyone.

It seems that some are approaching the book of Revelation as if it is a completely linear book, and a completely chronological book. So what happens in chapter 1 comes before what happens in chapter 2 and so on. While parts of this may be true, I am not convinced that the entire book is written in chronological order. All of it is true, all of it will (or already has) come to pass. But who are we to tell God that it has to be in a specific order just because that is how we read it?

This is only my opinion, but who said that any prophecy or prophetic book of the Bible is completely linear and chronological? Where are we told that just because chapter 4 says “I will show you what comes after”, everything in the entire rest of the book came after that statement in a chronological sense?

If you read Daniel, it is obvious that some of his visions are not written in the order in which they occurred. So why do we assume that within the vision that God gave to John everything must have happened completely in chronological order? Can God show us things going back and forth from past, present and future? Isn’t he outside of time? Who are we to determine exactly what God meant, and make certain that everyone else views it exactly as we do? Does anyone really believe that we can know 100% what God means in every portion of scripture?

Please do not take the above statement to mean we are not to study, pray, ask the Holy Spirit for guidance etc. I am emphatically not saying that.

I am saying we have to give God room and understand that He may do what He pleases and it may not line up at all with what we think, but in the end it will all line up with His Word.

No matter if this book is completely chronological or not, God’s purposes will be accomplished. Of course we need to pray, to use other scripture to help interpret passages we don’t understand, ask the Holy Spirit for wisdom, and try to understand the times we are living in.

At the same time, our faith and hope is not in figuring out everything ahead of time to the tiniest detail. Our hope and faith is in Jesus, and knowing that we are in Him and He is in us. As long as that part is settled, exactly how everything else works out does not really matter because we are in his hands.

Again, just my opinions, so please do not take offense as none is intended.

Dear BrotherJon,

Since you obviously seem to believe that what you say is in accordance with Scripture I will put you some questions.

(1) Why should Jesus Christ be in need of being born as the man child in the sense of the Lord in his corporate body in spite of his already being alive in the hearts of the Christians since apostolic time?

(2) Why should Jesus Christ as the man child be in need of being caught up to God?

(3) When will the foretold falling-away in Christianity come true, before or after the time of the man child?

Whatever your answers will be to these questions you will end up in difficulties as long as you maintain that the man child is the Lord in his corporate body.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

My answer - Get over yourself PehJeshua and stop the "sorrow in heart" bunk. You are extremely egotistical and a royal pain.


With joy in heart........Whirlwind

Dear BrotherJon,

Here you are contradicting yourself, for you also say that the man child is the Lord in His corporate body. Well, if the Lord himself is the man child that should come later on according to the Book of Revelation (1:1), why should his being caught up to the throne mean that he will receive authority from God, that is, authority that he already had according to Matt 28:18:

"ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and on earth has been given to m."

What wilderness is it that the woman flees to, and from where? And what true word is the Lord going to teach to what true church?

What life is the Lord in his corporate body going to lay down for whose sake?

What you maintain doesn't hold water and is totally contrary to the Holy Scriptures!


With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

I withhold the answers to your questions due to your attitude. You will stay in your delusion until you learn humility.

Dear whirlwind,

Did you ever think about the fact that Rev 2:26 might be foretelling a specific messenger, as also do Zech 11:14 and Isa 11:1 by the word BRANCH?

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Dear whirlwind,

Pay attention to what I say and not to what I am.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Dear BrotherJon,

There is no way for you to answer my questions without also revealing that your basis is shaky. That is why I put you the questions, and honest people will see your predicament.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

OK....I do this for the readers.....

My answers to your simple questions.

1. The "birth" of the Man-Child is simply the maturing of the first-fruits. Jesus said this would happen. Look---

John 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.

As you can see....Jesus Himself said He would be "seen" again as a child born to a woman.

2. You obviously don't understand scriptural patterns that we are to follow. Just as Joseph was "caught up to the throne" (Pharoah) Just as Moses was "caught up to the throne" (Mt.Sinai) the first fruits will have the same experience before they start their ministry. They will be ordained by the Lord to teach because they are overcomers. This catching up to the throne is not for "Jesus" (duh) but for the 144,000. They STAND on Mt. Zion. (caught up) They receive authority from God to be true leaders in the church.

3. The great falling away happens when the son of perdition is revealed. This corresponds with the betrayal of Judas whom Jesus called, the Son of Perdition. The same thing will happen again since history repeats.

There are those who are hidden in the "body" of believers who will turn on the Lord and take the mark of the beast. This will reveal them just as it did Judas. They, like him, will be filled with the spirit of the AntiChrist.

I don't expect Peh to learn anything here.....but maybe there are a few who are truly Christians who will hear His voice.

Blessings to all the real disciples out there!

Well, here is point (1) as answered by BroJon as well.

I am re-posting it, to support your point BroJon We are in agreement about this scripture . I also see Jesus telling the disciples that He will first return as a man child, born of a woman. I also see that He is telling them that THEY (the church) are in fact that woman.

C
.........................





Read this and see how Jesus tells His disciples that they are the woman in travail , when they asked Him about His return.

He is trying to show them that they (the church / us ) are like a woman, and when the Word enters, its like a seed that will produce after its own kind. The church (like Mary) is receiving the Word of God and she is to bring forth Christ . We no longer live, but Christ lives in us.

Joh 16:19 Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me?
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
Joh 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow (So here , they have sorrow, because they are this woman ), because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, (man child) she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 16:22 And ye therefore now have sorrow (again He is saying THEREFORE, because He is talking about THEM ): but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you.

I cannot believe that people can truly say that they cannot see this very simple picture in Scripture that Jesus is painting to the disciples.

He is saying: You , the church, is just like a woman in travail and you will see Me again, when you bring forth Christ in you. Then you will rejoice.

Thank you for taking time with this C. I am struggling because it goes against the grain, my grain, as it appears this message puts us in the place of Christ and that seems blasphemous.


But....I am seeing things in scripture that are falling into place. Perhaps the clearest is the scripture about ruling with a rod of iron. I always saw Christ in that role but after really reading it.....it cannot be. This change is shaking me to the core. I don't know exactly where I am in understanding now and feel like a reed in the wind.....not a nice feeling.


So....who is it that Christ tells us about - "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron...."? [Rev.2:27] Is the "manchild," the "he," the elect...are they the same? The elect I understand, I know their role during the millennium but you are teaching another side to them that I had not considered.


.......Whirlwind

My brother, this is a time to go before the Lord . You have heard a lot what men said , before you go any further, you must please ask God to take you further. He is ultimately the One Who opens our eyes to the truth and He will only do this, when we include Him in all sincerity in our quest for knowledge.

He takes us as far as we are prepared to go.

The shaking you feel is normal. God shakes us and if we allow it, all that is false will fall and only He will remain.

I am praying for you.
your brother
C

I do feel that I must give you these scriptures to meditate on:

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of Jehovah be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

Isa 60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.


Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches:

Jer 33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause a Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

Sounds like Jesus, because it is Jesus in you.

Jesus is coming back first in you and then for you.


Christ in you is the hope of glory.

Please ask God about this, only He can show you if this is true. No man can do this.

C

I have taken it to Him for three days and nights C. I ask for His direction. I know that in the latter days there is a lot of deception and I don't want to be part of it....learning or teaching. I know that there are many interpretations of scriptures (as you can tell on this forum) and I don't want to be misled.


So...thank you for your prayers and the scriptures you sent in the next post. And please know....they are greatly appreciated.


.......Whirlwind

Well, brother, we serve a living God and One that will answer when you ask. The prayer to be kept from deception is a powerful one and one that He answers if we pray it with all our heart.

I know that He answers. Just today I received an answer on a Biblical question that I asked a few weeks ago. In fact I had forgotten that I asked.But God did not !

He will lead us into all truth, when we are prepared to submit to the Word. Sometimes that goes against our doctrine, but then, truth has a way of taking us away sometimes from what we are comfortable with.It sets us free.

your brother
C

Don't forget....Jesus is the first of MANY brethren. OUR Father wants all His children to grow into the full stature of Christ. We are all supposed to reflect God's glory just as our elder brother did and does. Those who overcome will rule with a rod of iron...........

Thanks, BroJon,
Yes you are right. I remember , at first I too struggled with this, because it sounded like we take the place of Jesus. Only later did I realise the truth of what you are saying above: Jesus is the first of MANY brethren.

Next I had to come to terms with how incredible this salvation actually is. One of the firs things that "shocked" me, was how totally unselfish this was. Jesus coming and literally giving Himself for us, so that we could become just like Him ! My human side at first had difficulty accepting such a thing, because we are selfish. I could not understand this scripture, because it seemed way too much:

Rev 3:21 He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne.

I said: This is too much. Jesus is sitting in the Father's throne and now He is saying if I overcome, like He overcame, then I get to sit there as well. Like WWind said: I thought it close to blasphemy !

But God showed me about the "throne" and how it is a place of authority. The throne is where the Word goes out of and comes back after it accomplishes that which it was sent out to do. When somebody gets healed when we pray, they do so because of the power of the throne. When we speak the oracles of God (the Word ) and when we die to self and are led by the Spirit, we enter into a new realm. God's realm. A new reality. There is only one real throne (I know that the Word mentions thrones, ) and this is the place of authority where the Word is the ultimate Truth.

Act 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. We live and move in the Word. That what was from the beginning and that which will be for ever.It cannot be broken, it cannot be shaken, it always comes to pass. It is sure above all things. Through the Word, everything was created , and through it is the authority of God.

Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, And give thanks unto thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

So the closer we live according to the Word, the closer we live to the throne, because the Word kills the old man in us, yet brings Christ in us to manifestation and maturity. It cannot be any different, because if the Word becomes all in all of us, then we become that which God wants us to be: Like the first Son, we too must be Word, walking in flesh.

Only God can truly do this thru His Holy Spirit. Like Sarah , Hannah and Rachel, we too are incapable of bringing forth this Fruit, and like Mary we, with them all , must say: Let it be to me according to Thy Word. For it is from above that Christ is born into us.Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven.

We are no more, but Christ now is the One that is living in us. As surely as He was crucified , so were we. As surely as He was resurrected that day, so He now lives in the believer.

To not see Him for who He is in you or make Him to be less that He is, is not to understand fully, this great salvation that He bought for us.

Praise God !

C

Hi C, I have no particular problem with this post of yours C, provided that you understand that these scriptures are describing our state AFTER the resurrection and not as part of some pretribulation man-child manifestation.

Think about what you are saying too. What you are describing is the incredible glory which we shall have AFTER the resurrection. This is the same glory which Catholics behold Mary to have at this time. They recognise that she has ALREADY received this incredible glory. Now therefore you might deny that Mary has already been resurrected into glory, but you must admit from your post that if she has not yet received the glory which Catholics now consider to have then she SHALL absolutely receive ALL of that glory if not more at the resurrection.

Therefore if it is idolatory to consider that Mary is worthy of great veneration then it is also idolatory to consider that we shall receive this glory which you have described in your post. You are labouring in a double standard C.

So in fact this was an excellent and correct post however it exposes the error of your normal teachings in another way as well. You said "We too must become the Word walking in the flesh". What you have described here is evidence that you understand that the Word is not just a static word on a page as we see of the scripture. But that it is a living dynamic utterance from God as he speaks through his people. This is effectively what Sacred Tradition is; the accumulated utterings of God's people as he speaks through them. The whole point of the Day of Pentecost was to demonstrate this fact. Notice what God did on that day. Fire came down from heaven and made the people of God SPEAK. He did not do a letter drop with bits of paper floating down with tracts written upon them. He showed in this deed that unlike the pagan Gods who spoke in riddles from entrails of geese or not at all; the TRUE GOD spoke to men through his people who were the Word of God in the flesh.

If you are trying therefore to say that the Word of God in the flesh has not existed for all these centuries as a continuing manisfestation of Jesus Christ through his body which is the church; and that this Word of God fleshly manifestation will only happen at an end time latter rain man-child manifestation event then I must chide you and warn you to avoid such false teaching in the future.

In the meantime you have some work to do C to reconcile these competing thoughts which must constantly war in your mind. I hope that my post may help you to see your way through your fog. This latest post of yours shows a glimmer of light and hope that you might be on the right track toward a greater understanding of the doctrines of the Christian church.

I have no interest anymore in fighting with you.

You disagree, I accept that.

Here the Scripture tells us clearly that it is before the resurrection.

2Co 4:11 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: (this is not talking about resurrected bodies ruling over nations)2Co 5:4 For indeed we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened; not for that we would be unclothed (death), but that we would be clothed upon, that what is mortal may be swallowed up of life. (So in THIS life, what what is mortal will be clothed upon)

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

YES! As a matter of fact....those who are waiting for this to happen when they are resurrected are going to miss out. This is accomplished by walking in faith NOW. We are changed into the SAME image from glory to glory NOW as we abide by faith in the finished works of Jesus Christ. This is the "work" that we are to DO...believe on Him whom He sent! We do this as we walk this earth. The resurrection will reveal just how much fruit we BORE DURING this life.

No...we don't sit and wait for the resurrection...we press in...we grab hold..we endure NOW.

Matt. 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and men of violence take it by force.

If you don't understand this verse...I strongly encourage you to ask the Lord what it means. THIS is what we are to be doing until we either die or go to meet the Lord in the air.

Dear whirlwind,

It is not strange that you feel shaken by reading what C and BrotherJon explain, for what they bring forth as the content and meaning of the prophecies in the book of Revelation is utter distortion of the Holy Scriptures, and that I am going to show from Scripture in my answer to come. They have ventured to bring forward their own fleshly thoughts as if they were in accordance with Scripture, but they aren't. I hope to have my answer ready within a day or two days.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

My advice to our brother to ask God about still stands. I know and he knows how many views are out here and we are all saying: We are correct.

A man's eyes gets opened by the Holy Spirit and not by clever words of man.

When I first saw this, my spirit saw it and my understanding followed later. Still the Lord first speaks His truths to my spirit and sometimes it takes a while for my intellect to understand what He is saying. He first have to break down my traditions.

So , fleshly it is not, or else I would not refer him to the Lord. I rest. I cannot show truth to the hearts of men. All we can do is bring the Scriptures on which we base what we say.

in Christ
C

2Cr 4:7 ¶ But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works ]unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

The Body is quite clearly dead because of sin, and not regenerated.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

the word mortal is a bit of a giveaway.


Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Clearly you wouldn't have to mortify the deeds of the perfect resurrected body.

I really don't know why you pursue these strange teachings.

I agree

Simple, you have a way of picking any scirpture, even if it has no relevance on what we are talking about and then you try and make a point with it.

Now you even have Ex confused.

THe Scripture you quoted is about being alive to God and dead to the world. Romans teaches us about death to the "old self". This death to self is not a death of the flesh and bones, but its the death of that old self that is driving us to sin.

Its talking about being dead to this old world and how you should , by listening to that still small voice or feeling inside of you, (that would be listening to the SPirit) : you then kill that which is not of God and you become alive to God: so "you shall live"

The only way that, that scripture relates to what we are talking about is, that IF you do not put to death this old self of yours , then obviously you will not partake of the man child as well.

THe man child, or first fruits, are dead to self, they have done what that scripture teaches. SO they " shall live"
The rest "shall not live"Mat 16:25 For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.

There are first fruits, and fruits that follow (I am sure everybody understand the words "FIRST fruits")

All Christians are suppose to bear fruit. That fruit is Christ in you. Some will bear fruit and some will not bear fruit. That is clear in the parable of the sower. The parable of the sower is about Christians. Its about Christians that hear the Word (Seed of God) and that seed falls into their hearts. But some do actually nothing with that seed. The Bible tells us that that seed either gets eaten by birds or dies because of the thorns or rocky places (hearts that are hard)

But praise God, in some (the good ground) that Word finds a place to fall and bring forth fruit (Christ) and in some 30 fold, some 60 fold , but in some ..............100 fold !

SO 100 fold: we have the first fruits and then follow the 60 and 30. But all are bearing FRUIT. Notice that those who not bearing fruit are not amongst the overcomers. You have to be either First Fruit bearers or at least in the second or third group.

So its serious , that is why GOd tells us :Php 2:12 ......... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

If you do not know how to bear fruit, then it is time (for time is short) ti start finding out, instead of coming against the very thing that you need. Not because I say so, but because God said so.



C

Oh poor Ex.

You'd better tell his mom and pop not to let him go on those
awfully dangerous debating forums.....

By the way, are you on drugs?

The scriptures I quoted are exactly the same ones you quoted.

I know Simple: I was telling you about those scriptures you quoted.



What is it with this new attitude of yours? You do not seem to have a kind word for anybody anymore Marcus.

C

I'm not saying we won't ever die physically...or that our bodies aren't mortal due to sin......

I'm agreeing with the scriptures that tell us we are to walk as He walked Here and NOW in THESE bodies. Many are waiting until the resurrection before they are "like Him" but this is tooo late. We are to bear that fruit as we live THIS life....what an easy way out to put off walking in holiness and obedience until after you die.

We do that now IF we walk by faith and love righteousness and truth.

Dear BrotherJon,

Thanks for the answer. I will now comment on them and show that they don't hold water and therefore are contrary to Holy Scripture.
You wrote:


My answer:
Why not for me too, since I did put you these questions in sincerity to show you that what you maintain is against Scripture, and what is against Scripture is from the Devil. You should be relieved to get loose from his deception.

You wrote:


My answer:
What you are doing, for one thing, is misusing the term "first-fruits" and attributing meanings to Jesus that he never ever taught. Jesus never told that the man child is the maturing of the first fruit, that is a lie on your part and a mere distortion of Scripture. When Jesus talks about the man child he says this in Matt 24:45:

"Who then is THE FAITHFUL SERVANT and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?"

He did not say "servants" as though there would be many of them. No, Jesus said that there would come a specific SERVANT whom God WILL PUT IN CHARGE OF THE SERVANTS (who are many), but the faithful one is JUST ONE PERSON. And those whom this one servant is put in charge of ARE THE FIRST-FRUITS. Those who are the first fruits are the first ones to be harvested, not the second ones, so there must further be a reason why they ARE the first fruits, not only some kind of "maturing", as you say it. No, the serious fact is that they are the first fruits AFTER THE FALLING-AWAY, which I can prove from Scripture beyond refutation. If there is no falling-away before the time of the 144000 elected, THEY will not be the first fruits. The first fruits of the New Covenant were those who heard and believed the apostles. Without a falling-away in the time between the apostles and the 14400 elected people the 144000 will merely be, at the best, the second fruits. This is one thing among others that show clearly that you are wrong, and that the man child is no corporate body of believers. Scripture clearly shows it. If you still dont believe this, then let me give you more scriptures to prove it. In Rev 5:1-4 you can read this:

"Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in HEAVEN or on EARTH or under the EARTH could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside."

Don't be blind to the biblical fact that NOBODY, NOT EVEN IN HEAVEN, WAS FOUND WORTHY TO BREAK THE SEALS AND OPEN THE SCROLL! This foretells a falling-away, since heaven here means the church on earth, as Heb 12:22 proves. Jesus is in God's invisible eternal heaven, but he is not included in this heaven where nobody was found worthy, for that heaven was fallen away from God. This means that the second sign of Rev 12 had come and taken the place where the true woman had been sitting earlier as the true church of God. This is why John wept, and this is why God has to return spiritually through a true and faithful witness. About His coming back spiritually like this he says (Luke 18:8): "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" There is no doubt about it that when He comes back in person on the very LAST DAY He will find faith on earth, so that coming is not meant here. Since this is what Scripture tells us it is also true that the witness through whom Jesus comes back spiritually is called THE ROOT of Jesse Isa 11:10. This ROOT of Jesse is the BRANCH of Isa 11:1, that is, not Jesus in person, but the spirit of Jesus Christ in this one true and faithful servant. Jesus himself is called "shoot" of Jesse in Isa 11:1. It is further foretold that this ROOT will be like a BANNER FOR THE PEOPLES in that day (Isa 11:10), for in him the Lord will sit spiritually and judge as foretold in Isa 11:4:

"He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked."

Here you see the secret of Rev 2:27:

"He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery— just as I (Jesus) have received authority from my Father. I will also give him the morning star."

Notice that Jesus gives this authority to a specific witness who will be the one coming with the MORNING (STAR) after the falling-away. You can read about this same witness also in Rev 10:1-2 and Rev 7:2. That he comes from the rising of the sun means that he has the morning star Jesus in his heart and therefore is a true witness. When the morning star Jesus is in his heart he will spiritually be sitting with the Lord on His throne as also foretold in Rev 3:21. There is no denying this biblical fact, nor the biblical fact that the spirit of the Lord in this witness is the one to open the seals of the little book (Rev 5:2). Notice from Rev 5:5 that it is not the ROD OF THE STEM OF JESSE (Jesus) but the ROOT OF DAVID (the man child), who according to Isa 11:1 is the BRANCH. You can read of this true witness also in Isa 41:25:

"I have raised up one from the NORTH, and he shall come: from THE RISING OF THE SUN shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay."

Nobody can deny that this servant of God will do exactly as the one who will be sitting with Jesus Christ on His spiritual throne. This verse is in accordance with Zech 6:8. So, you do well to yourself as long as you don't reject these biblical facts, but woe to you if you don't take these things seriously.

You wrote:


My answer:
Yes, it is a well-known thing that the Christian church is described as a woman, but still it is a big jump from there to maintaining that the MAN CHILD in Rev 12:5 is the Lord in a corporate body of believers. What Jesus was telling his disciples had got to do with his bodily death, and even though His resurrection from the dead convinced them of his being the promised Messiah he never said or implied that he would then be the MAN CHILD of Rev 12:5. That he would be the Lord in them through their faith in him by then is correct, but since the book of Revelation still was to be written and foretell the coming of the MAN CHILD, he could not mean that he was the man child. You cannot mean that and be in accordance with Scripture, for Jesus himself tells us in Rev 3:21 that the man child should be sitting with him on His throne. How can we be sure that that person is the man child? Well, because the man child is the one to overcome the deception of Antichrist, so therefore he is mentioned in Rev 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:26-28, 3:5, 3:12, and 3:21. These verses imply that there has been a total falling-away beforehand, a spiritual night (John 9:4), so the Lord has got no true church on earth any more. Therefore the Scripture foretells that there will come a person who overcomes this Antichristian night and deception, and he is mentioned in Isa 66:7:

"A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a MAN CHILD. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Who would say that this foretells the birth of Jesus? Scripture tells us that this birth is connected with recompense to his enemies, and exactly that is what the birth and mission of the man child is, unlike the spiritual birth of the disciples of Jesus! After the man child there come many others, and they will be the first fruits. What is meant by Zion here is Scripture, for through the Word of God comes faith and truth, the truth that the man child attained to.

You wrote:


My answer:
You speak like a dragon and totally contrary to Scripture! My question was this: (2) Why should Jesus Christ as the man child be in need of being caught up to God? I did not ask about Joseph or whoever but about the Lord, and the reason was that you maintained that the Lord was the man child in a corporate body of believers. Are you now changing opinion in an attempt of escape? Was the man child the Lord himself, as you said, or was he not? I have proved earlier in this writing that the man child is not the Lord. Can you refute it? If you now change opinion and say that the Lord is not the man child, then my criticism of you was correct. Let me repeat what the predicament of yours is now: If the man child is the Lord, then why should he be caught up, not only to the throne, but even up to God? Was not the woman already in heaven, or is not the Lord already in heaven? You don't know what you are talking about! That is for sure!

You wrote:


My answer:
Are you spiritually drunk? Don't you know from 2 Thess 2 that WHEN THE SON OF PERDITION IS REVEALED, then is the end of falsehood and falling-away come to an end? Scripture reveals you to be a lier!

You wrote:


My answer:
What has this got to do with what I asked you about? Does this just prove that I am correct in saying that you are in a predicament and cannot answer these questions?

You wrote:


My answer:
So you mean that you have learnt enough already, in spite of all that being totally against Scripture! For your own sake I recommend you to speak less and listen more!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Your "answers" reveal your lack of understanding of these things. The Lord has kept them from you because of your arrogant attitude and has left you in delusion. How sad for you.

Jesus is coming again IN His true disciples who are HUMBLE and MEEK and are bearing the fruit of Christ and not walking in the vanity of their own minds. I do not see Christ in you or ANY of your posts and I am not alone in this observation.

I trust that those with eyes to see gleaned what was there from my post. God is sovereign.

Dear BrotherJon,

Was not that one an easy escape of yours, making pretence of having been able to extricate yourself out of your predicament? Well, the questions I put you are still unanswered by you, and with your attitude and contrascriptural meanings you will NEVER be able to answer them. You are in a quagmire, so to say.

But since you did not answer my questions by using apposite scriptures, only far-fetched and irrelevant scriptures, I will come back and show at what points your meanings collide with the Holy Scripture! That power I have got from God in spite of your misinterpreting it for arrogance.

I don't care about the number of people who might or might not agree with me, for my basis is Scripture and cannot be refuted. Those who read my answer to you with an honest heart will see that I am right in what I say. Those who are not honest need not see anything, they get what they deserve.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Well, if you are right, tell all readers here if you will rule with the rod of iron here in this world, and if so, who are you going to rule over? It is also apposite to ask you at WHAT TIME are you going to do so?

In my refutation of your false meanings and claim I will show that you are just a twister of Scripture.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Word for the day apposite. I have never heard this word before.
suitable; well-adapted; pertinent; relevant; apt: an apposite answer.

How I wish that we had more apposite quoting of scripture on this forum instead of plastering scripture out of context and irrelevant scripture to make a show of biblical scholarship.

One well placed scripture is worth a hundred inappropriately used scriptures

I understand BroJon perfectly, He is talking about Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
Rev 2:27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:

Seeing that this is Jesus talking, He is not talking about Himself here.

If BroJan is an overcomer, which I know he is already by faith in the scriptures, then yes he will , with other overcomers, rule the nations on this earth. This will be during the tribulation.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, (The Word of God) that with it he (The man child / first fruits ) should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

Please take note that the Bible calls believers: The BODY OF CHRIST.

Not the body of believers, or the body of men, or the body of good people..............no we are the BODY of Christ. Not the "GROUP" of Christ, but His BODY. My body is really part of ME, of who I am, so is yours. Its not a separate thing that you can take away and say" Look there am I and there is my body.

Christ, also has a BODY. This BODY is also who is is. It cannot be separated from Him. That is why the Bible tells us the antichrist will deny Christ is cometh (present continues tense). Jesus did not only come to earth and went away, He is still coming in the flesh of the believers. He is still present in HIS BODY. That is why, when you look at another believer, you see Christ there, because the Bible tells us that Christ is in the believer and that in God's eyes, believers are dead to self and only Christ lives in them.

Only Christ, gets to go to heaven. That is why we have to die to self and allow Christ to sit alone on the throne of our hearts. Because HE ALONE is the hope of glory.

Col 1:27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


The reason people do not understand the man child , is because they have not yet taken themselves out of the picture. THEY are still on the throne of their lives. How do I know that? Because if you realised you were indeed dead and crucified, we would not be having this conversation. If you knew that Christ is now really living in you, there would be no problem with the man child, because then we would all understand: OH yes, its Christ, as it should be. ALWAYS about Jesus Christ, never about ME, because I AM DEAD and CRUCIFIED with Christ.

Are you?

Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.

28.And I will give him the morning star.


In going over this topic it appears Christ hands the rod of iron over to His elect and they shall rule (shepherd) the others. He also gives him/them the morning star. There are two. One is Christ Himself and the other is Lucifer. The morning Star in Rev. 22:16 is Christ. So....this morning star [2:28] that is given to the elect (man child) is Satan.


What do you believe is meant by being given the morning star?


.......Whirlwind

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Isa 14:12 How349 art thou fallen5307 from heaven,4480, 8064 O Lucifer,1966 son1121 of the morning!7837 how art thou cut down1438 to the ground,776 which didst weaken2522, 5921 the nations!1471

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.





Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright, the morning star.


bright,
lampros
lam-pros'
From the same as G2985; radiant; by analogy limpid; figuratively magnificent or sumptuous (in appearance): - bright, clear, goodly, gorgeous, white.

Jesus tells us that He is the morning star.In Isah 14 it is by implication.

Jesus said He is the first.
Some time ago I did a study on it and God showed me how Jesus was the first Fruit of many sons, or stars. Abraham's children (the people of FAITH, are called stars) Also Satan wanted to place his throne above the stars (us, if you look at it in the spirit) but God said no, he is UNDER our feet.

Morning star: G3720
ὀρθρινός
orthrinos
or-thrin-os'
From G3722; relating to the dawn, that is, matutinal (as an epithet of Venus, especially brilliant in the early day): - morning.

If you see Jesus as the first Fruit and us as the fruit that follow , and you see God as light and His kingdom as coming (Kingdom of light) you see the FIRST STAR (Jesus) in the "morning" of the arrival of this Kingdom.But now the other stars are also coming up.

You and I have to have Christ, the first Star, manifest in us. So when you receive the rod of iron, you must also have the morning Star shining forth in you.




Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.


Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

White . is the same Greek word for Bright, as in bright morning star.

Christ is our clothing, because He is our righteousness. Those who overcome wear the BRIGHT lampros
clothes of the Morning Star. He who is first among many brethren.

Hope that helps
C

Good question. I've been seeing Christ as the One whom all will desire to be with...to see His face... to just be NEAR Him....I'm not talking about the lost...though they will see Him and weep and bow their knees and confess that He truly is Lord of All...but I'm seeing Him as the great reward, Jesus Himself.

Those who overcome...those who enter into the "fellowship of His sufferings" will have ready access to His Presence for all eternity....I.E. given the Morning Star.

Look at His promise of reward to the Philadelphia church---

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:

This seems to say that these overcomers will bask in the presence of God without end. Just to be NEAR Him is the reward. This is just a thought and not a doctrine.....but it sounds right to me at this point.

Jesus Himself is the reward for all who Overcome.

It is more than thought BrotherJon....it is scripture and it is right.


Father telling us about His elect during the millennium [Ezekiel 44:11-27]


28.And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

29.They shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering: and every dedicated thing in Israel shall be their's.


........Whirlwind

I'm not certain of what you are saying. When you say "it is by implication," do you mean it is implied that Satan is that morning star of Is.14 or implied that Christ is?




I agree with much of what you are saying but Christ will not be the first to return to earth. He comes after the workings of Satan....I know you know that so I'm confused at what you are teaching. I'm not speaking about if Christ is or is not corporate or if we have His light in us but.......who comes first. Which morning star will be given to the elect? Christ, the true Morning Star, or Satan, the fake morning star.

....Whirlwind

What is the Gospel about? If you can figure this out, then you will know the answer lies within the One it is written about, who was foretold, and who sits upon the Throne...BTW, why was it written and whom it is for?

There isn't another that can fill His Shoes.

Blessings

By implication, I just mean that it depends on the translation. Sometimes its translated "Lucifer" .

.................

I really do not think that we will be getting the fake star. Unless you mean that he will be under our feet. That is true, we have dominion over him. He wanted to sat up his throne above the "stars" and God said, no, you will be under their feet.

I believe we will get the true Morning Star, because He is also seen as the Sun in Rev 12 and the woman is clothed with the sun.

We are clothed with Christ. Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

I am also just speculation on this WW, I have never thought about it before but you got me thinking.

I searched the Scriptures and saw: We are clothed with Christ, so is the woman on the moon clothed with the Sun, the Bride wears white garments that is also called , righteous acts of the saints, and we know that we have a righteousness that is not our own, but it belongs to Christ, Who is the Bright and morning Star, who shines with "lampros" the same as the clothes that the Bride wears , which brought me back again to Christ................it always comes back to Christ.
SO my humble opinion is: Christ is the bright and morning start, which the overcomers will get.

Satan just gets stepped upon and he is nothing that we want, although I understand what you mean.

C

No, no one else can fill His shoes but Satan will try to make us believe he is Christ and in doing so.....many will take the mark of the beast.


....Whirlwind

I also see that Lucifer is just called "day-star" , do you have a translation where he is called "morning star" ?


Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations!

Isa 14:12 How349 art thou fallen5307 from heaven,4480, 8064 O Lucifer,1966 son1121 of the morning!7837 how art thou cut down1438 to the ground,776 which didst weaken2522, 5921 the nations!147