In the scripture it tells us not to call any man Father, but Catholic's and many Protestant's DO call the pastor Father. Is this a breach of the command of Christ?

Here is the passage in question.
Matt 23:23Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, [1] and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Now what if Jesus when he said "Call No man Father" made a sweeping bow and spoke the word "Father" in a grandiose fawning, adoring manner. Would that make a difference to our understanding? We would then understand that it was not the title itself that was the problem but the attitude and heart behind the title. Of course when we read the matter of fact words in the scripture such nuances are missed, even though they can readily be construed from the context given in the entire passage where the Pharisees are shown puffing themselves up in the eyes of men by broadening the phylacteries and lapping up the greetings in the markets, the best seats in the synagogues and at feasts.

Many Protestants assuming that the title 'Father' is inherently wrong avoid breaching the command of Christ by coming up with other titles for their spiritual leaders like 'Pastor' or 'Minister'. But as we will see this does not solve the problem that Christ was addressing. Which is the exaltation of men and the striving of men to be king pin and having the favour of men.

Clearly Protestantism has not solved the problem of men striving for a title and striving to be king pin by not calling them 'Father'?. Hardly. If anything the problem is worse with protestant leaders asking for appearance money, 5 star hotels, fuel allowance for the gulfstream. Chauffeured car from the airport. This is what Christ was driving at. We must not strive to get a title to exalt ourselves above our fellow man. Our God is our father. He is the one who exalts the humble and places them and ordains them into a position of rulership. Therefore we must not call any man on earth "Father", "Rabbi", "Teacher", "Pastor General", "Doctor of Theology", "Minister", "Cardinal", "Bishop".

GOD is our "Father", and our "Rabbi", and our "Teacher", and our "Pastor General" etc. but he appoints men to these positions for our sakes. It is not an earthly appointment. It is a heavenly appointment. So if we cannot see how the individual has received proper ordination and anointing to that position sanctioned by the authority of the church which has the keys to the kingdom of heaven to bind and loose in heaven. THEN WE MUST NOT FOLLOW THEM or give them any authority in our lives or call them "Father" etc. For to do so brings our souls into peril and places our flesh into the hands of exploiters and robbers.

So when a servant of God takes on a title like these above he does not see it as a label of aggrandisement. He sees it as simply a recognition of the authority of the office which is an extension of God's authority.
Similarly we submit to the higher authority because we submit to the Lord not to men.
This is how all godly authority should work. A husband should rule his wife as God has ordained. Wives should Ephesians 5:22 submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So when a wife obeys her husband even though he is a dreadfully flawed husband, she is showing her humble obedience to the Lord. It is not an earthly devotion, but a heavenly devotion. So too, when we call the dreadfully flawed priest or the minister 'Father' and obey him we are not honouring a man, we are honouring the Father in heaven who appointed that man to have authority over us.

Some Protestants believe that the problem is with the title, so they go to great pains to not call the religious leader "Father" and instead call him Pastor. But this is not a remedy because then everybody who was trying to exalt themselves to become a "Father" simply strives to exalt themselves to become a "Pastor". I have seen a pastor swanning around being called Pastor Bob this and Pastor Bob that by all the fawning christians. This is a disgraceful breach of the injunction "Call no man Father for one is your Father, which is in heaven". They are not serving the Father in heaven they are serving a man on earth called Pastor Bob. When we call our minister "Father" or "Pastor" or any other title we understand in our heart and mind that we are addressing our Father in heaven who exercises his authority on earth through his appointed representative. Therefore NO FLESH is exalted. Even the secular authority is anointed by God to hold his position. As is every teacher and doctor of the law or doctor of medicine. So when the cruel, murderous, idolatrous, flawed, heretical Babylonians overthrew the ailing nation of Judah, Jeremiah told them not to rebel against the King of Babylon because God had anointed him to rule over them. Of course they ignored Jeremiah and rebelled anyway and they all died.

Sometimes to avoid this issue of "titles" we pick humble titles like "Minister" which means servant. But all that results in that the strivers for authority strive to be called "Minister". In Australia here men strive with outrageous political determination to be exalted to the position of "Prime Minister" (This is not meant as a reflection upon our beloved Prime Minister who did not achieve office with this attitude).

So clearly the title is not the problem, but the attitude or heart and intent behind it.
Paul was a spiritual "Father" in the faith to Timothy. We all follow Abraham the "Father" of the faith. Isaac and Jacob are also called fathers in the New Testament. We call our male parent "Father". So it is ridiculous to say that we call no man Father. Let us not be simple, but wise and discerning in the handling of the scripture.

In this passage and other parallel passages in other gospels we are also taught not to call men 'Rabbi' or 'Master'. 'Employer' is just another word for 'Master'. Does this mean that we must not call any man 'Employer'. Of course not, how ludicrous. And 'Doctor' is just another word for 'Rabbi'. Does this mean that it is wrong to go and visit our GP and call him 'Doctor'. Of course not, how ludicrous. What Jesus is talking about is the attitude and heart behind the word which is spoken, not the word itself. I knew of a Pastor who went and got his PHD and then required everyone at church to start calling him 'Doctor'. How he loved that, and all the people loved to follow after him calling him Doctor XXXX this and Doctor XXXX that. Another disgraceful breach of the command of Jesus even though nobody is calling the man 'Father'.

Again I say, Let us be wise and discerning in the handling of the scripture.

Yes, unless he's your daddy, LOL! Well let me compliment you, on a very well thought out, and written thesis. I'll have to read it a few times to absorb all of the information you put in there.

I'm not really familiar with anyone calling the pastor of their church Father. Really I think most people use the word pastor without giving it much thought. Pastor is one of the five offices of the ministry.

Overseer, or Bishop would probably be a better fitting title to most men that are over an assembly. Because someone is responsible for the oversight of a church doesn't mean that they have the gift of a pastor.

Not being able to speak for anyone else, we just call each other bro. and sis. and let the gifts work making themselves evident. I agree it was more about the ideal of being exhalted, or lifted up, than the actual word.

I repent if you were offended for me calling you a catholic, it doesn't really sound as if it bothered you too much. I shouldn't have assumed, but with your defense, I thought you were. I do disagree about the history, but since none of us were there it will be hard to find out what they really did.

It doesn't matter what we think as much as what the Lord thinks, and he keeps the best records of all. We know that he will hold the system responsible for all that they have done, as well as all of the rest of us.

Personally I'd like for ministers to think of their callings as opportunities for service, not to be served. You mentioned ruling, and it's true there is authority in the ministry, but to borrow a saying, "Preachers are not sheriffs, enforcing the law, but rather lawyers, explaining the law." We present the Gospel, and it's up to the saints to heed the word, ultimately we ourselves are responsible for our own salvation, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I appreciate your thoughts and the time you must have put into your writting. It shows me, that you are a studious person, that I believe loves God, and the truth. Keep up the good work. Mouser

Thanks for positive comments Mouser. I was not offended to be called a catholic. In fact I would be proud to be a Catholic. My reason for mentioning that I am a Protestant is that I wanted you to be aware that I had been brought up to believe that the Catholic (and Anglican) custom of calling priests 'Father' was wrong and that the Catholic church had executed unimaginable cruelties during the Inquisitions. My research was therefore not driven by bias to establish my preconceived ideas, but was rather a pursuit of truth. In my research on these subjects I have had to do some soul searching and change long and deeply held personal beliefs.

Cheers...............Excubitor

we already know that the pope claims to be god (he calls himself HOLY FATHER---- a title used only once in the Bible, where Jesus called the Heavenly Father "HOLY FATHER".)
see JOHN 17


and
the pope has turned Mary into a false god--------she would have to be a god to do the things that the pope has called on her to do.

Jesus said
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

this is the easiest verse in the whole Bible to believe and obey, and the pope neither believes it nor obeys it.



so, i'm guessing that the purpose of post # 1 is to persuade us CHRISTIANS to convert to RCC CATHOLICISM,
but, the Bible tells us to COME OUT OF HER (THE RCC RELIGION) , MY PEOPLE.

see Rev 17, 18, 19



if any PROTESTANT or CATHOLIC is calling anyone here on earth FATHER, he should stop rejecting the HOLY SCRIPTURE.

we must obey the Bible.

our EVERLASTING DESTINY in HEAVEN OR LAKE OF FIRE depends on it.

Wow!

Wow's right. This is a typical over-the-top unbalanced post which we have come to expect from you Dennis. I guess that by this assessment of yours every Christian until the 20th Century who called the priest Father or Padre is doomed to the lake of fire. You have even doomed the Apostle Paul to the Lake of Fire because he called Abraham his father.

Romans 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

We can also see that by your assessment every Slave who called his owner 'Master' is condemned to the lake of fire for disobeying the scripture. You have also condemned every one who calls their teacher 'Doctor' or 'Teacher' to the lake of fire, because that is the exact translation of Rabbi. Nice going Dennis.

Paul calls Abraham "father" because Abraham has "seed" according to the Bible.

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.

Rom 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

So Abraham is the father of us all according to the FAITH of Abraham. Those who follow this faith is of the same "bloodline" in the spirit as Abraham, and so becomes his children. In fact GOD is the one who calls him our spiritual father after faith.

The other "titles" like pastor, teacher, prophet, evangelist, Apostle are just titles that are descriptive of the ONLY ministries that God has given to men.Seeing that Jesus did not correct them when they called Him Teacher, it means that He has no problem being called that and we should also not have a problem with it.

There is no "Father" anywhere in the ministry , meaning that if we decide to add that "title" we are adding to the Word, plus we are ignoring what Jesus directly told us not to do. No matter HOW we try and bend the Scriptures to fit our own doctrine, we are still not being true to the Word of God.God only uses that term when speaking of those who follow in the spiritual footsteps of another, therefor call no man father. Because is you do, you are claiming in the spirit to follow that person in all that he stands for in the spirit.

Dennis is correct in that calling anybody "Holy Father" is even worse. That is a title that Jesus gave to God the Father. Its blasphemy to call any man that. Also calling this pope person Father, is saying that you are following him as your spiritual father and you are in fact like him in all he does and in all that he says. You are then part of his descendants and you will inherit his inheritance spiritually. The same if you call a priest "father".

C

1 John: 2,13 I write unto you, fathers, because you have known him, who is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because you have overcome the wicked one.

Here we see John referring to the elders of the church as fathers. Are you then condemning John?

Acts 7,1 Then the high priest said: Are these things so? 2 Who said: Ye men, brethren, and fathers, hear.

Acts 22,1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye the account, which I now give unto you.

Here again we see the elders of the church referred to as father.

1 Corinthians 4:15 For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you. 16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ. 17 For this cause have I sent to you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord; who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus; as I teach everywhere in every church.

Here we see Paul refer to himself as their father, and then also to Timothy as his son. Now we know that Timothy was not his biological son. So Paul is referring to himself as a spiritual father of Timothy.

Are you saying that Paul is now condemned as well?

If your understanding is in direct conflict with Holy writ then your understanding is wrong.

God Bless,
K.D.

the pope is condemned...........he claims to be God.

Just as you are now claiming to be God. For only God can condemn. Scripture strictly forbids you from doing what you just did.

First, it’s a good idea to take Jesus very seriously when He goes to the trouble to tell us NOT to do this. To then go and search for reasons to DO it , points to us wanting to do what we want to do and then bending Scripture to prove our doctrine. This is from the Catholic Church , so its not surprising that they have done this, plus are using Scriptures out of context like I will prove.

KD tells us that Paul is speaking to the elders in the church and is calling them fathers. If we actually read the chapter, we see that Paul is calling the Jews (not Christians) “fathers” (a respectful term and not used in the sense that Jesus has warned not to do) The Bible is very clear and it would not contradict this saying of Jesus (He is after all the Word )

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven.

We have to note that the RCC have decided to sidestep this Scripture and have searched for any Scripture that might show that their way is right. In doing so , many Scriptures are perverted . For instance, the one that KD used about Paul calling the elders in the church “father”. First he is actually speaking to the unbelieving Jews and second in context we can see that it is a general term of respect and not used in the way that Jesus warned against.

So in order for us to see if Paul at any time told anybody to CALL him father, we have to look at those Scriptures.

Act 7:1 And the high priest said, Are these things so?
Act 7:2 And he said, Brethren and fathers, hearken: The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran,

So here we see that he is talking to the Jews again, and he is again talking with respect as was their tradition. He is not calling anybody HIS father, he is talking in general. So we can see that it is nor wrong according to the Bible to use the term “father” in this way.

Act 22:1 Brethren and fathers, hear ye the defence which I now make unto you.

KD claims that Paul is speaking to the elders in the church, but Paul is actually again talking to the Jews as we notice when we read the whole chapter. Here is a section from a bit later in the chapter when these “fathers” wants to kill Paul.

Act 22:22 And they gave him audience unto this word; and they lifted up their voice, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

Paul also uses the word “father” in the correct way, when he teaches about teaching the gospel. You become the “starting point” for a person when you disciple them in Christ. You “father” them into the truth of Christ, but they are not to call you father, they are to call God their Father. Again, Paul uses it correctly and God is writing through Paul , we know that this is correct.

When we transgress and bend scriptures to suit us, we sin. Even if a huge institution like the RCC does it, it is still sin. In the institution we can clearly see how people have taken it upon themselves to add and subtract from Scripture with little care for the consequences.

Just a point about JUDGING. We ARE to judge those who call themselves Christians, but we are NOT to judge those who are without (the sinners) God judges them.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? 1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves.

So if the Pope or anybody calls themselves a Christian we are to judge them by their fruit.

Mat 7:16 By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

So its not wrong to judge him. He is not bearing the right fruit. Scripture does not forbid us to judge those within.

C

Paul said LET HIM BE ACCURSED........if he does not believe this Gospel.

Paul excommunicated the man WHO HAD HIS DAD'S WIFE.

there is a time and place for CHURCH DISCIPLINE.

some of the people on this forum have no objection to calling the pope a GOD, but they will not tolerate BIBLICAL CHURCH DISCIPLINE.












# Romans 9:3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off and banished from Christ for the sake of my brethren and instead of them, my natural kinsmen and my fellow countrymen.
Romans 9:2-4 (in Context) Romans 9 (Whole Chapter)
# 1 Corinthians 4:12
And we still toil unto weariness [for our living], working hard with our own hands. When men revile us [ wound us with an accursed sting], we bless them. When we are persecuted, we take it patiently and endure it.
1 Corinthians 4:11-13 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 4 (Whole Chapter)
# 1 Corinthians 16:22
If anyone does not love the Lord [does not have a friendly affection for Him and is not kindly disposed toward Him], he shall be accursed! Our Lord will come! (Maranatha!)
1 Corinthians 16:21-23 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 16 (Whole Chapter)
# Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to and different from that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
Galatians 1:7-9 (in Context) Galatians 1 (Whole Chapter)
# Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so I now say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel different from or contrary to that which you received [from us], let him be accursed (anathema, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment)!
Galatians 1:8-10 (in Context) Galatians 1 (Whole Chapter)
# Galatians 3:10
And all who depend on the Law [who are seeking to be justified by obedience to the Law of rituals] are under a curse and doomed to disappointment and destruction, for it is written in the Scriptures, Cursed (accursed, devoted to destruction, doomed to eternal punishment) be everyone who does not continue to abide (live and remain) by all the precepts and commands written in the Book of the Law and to practice them.
Galatians 3:9-11 (in Context) Galatians 3 (Whole Chapter)
# Revelation 17:4
The woman was robed in purple and scarlet and bedecked with gold, precious stones, and pearls, [and she was] holding in her hand a golden cup full of the accursed offenses and the filth of her lewdness and vice.
Revelation 17:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 17 (Whole Chapter)
# Revelation 22:3
There shall no longer exist there anything that is accursed (detestable, foul, offensive, impure, hateful, or horrible). But the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall worship Him [pay divine honors to Him and do Him holy service].

There is a vast difference in judging some ones fruit and judging their soul. It is just amazing how anyone can sit there and claim to have the wisdom to judge a mans soul. WOW such puffed up pride to claim that which belongs to God alone. Truly amazing. Further the verse you keep twisting is telling you not to call any one other than God the Father your creator. It is not about the word but the meaning behind the word.

God Bless,
K.D.

So KD what is the meaning behind the word.

Secondly, where in the Bible did the Lord point you to this meaning, just so that we all can learn from this.

Remember that God warns us that when you speak for Him (ex: explains His Word) you have to speak as the oracle of God.

1Pe 4:11 if any man speaketh[b], speaking as it were oracles of God; if any man ministereth, ministering as of the strength which God supplieth: that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, whose is the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen. [/b]

IF you are really looking for the answer here is an article that covers it completely. I can not say it better or more complete.

Father

None of which changes the fact that no man should ever even entertain the idea that he can judge another mans soul.

God Bless,
K.D.

that FATHER link is to a RCC catholic website.

why did you point christians to a non-christian religion website?

we don't want hindu, mormon, evolution, buddhism, TM, hypnotism, accupressure, paranormal,

we want christ............we don't want the pope who claims to be Christ's God.