Click on the audio links. The debate is well done, and well worth your time listening to.

http://richarddawkins.net/audio/dawkins-lennox_part1.mov

http://richarddawkins.net/audio/dawkins-lennox_part2.mov

http://richarddawkins.net/audio/dawkins-lennox_part3.mov

Dean

A very good debate. I can see points on both sides of the argument, for and against the idea of God, but mostly for the belief in Christ, which I have a bias for. I don't know why I have that bias, so I guess I am delusional believing in a God, and I don't mind that at all.

To me believing in God is very beautiful, and I value it. But I do not possess the ability to prove that God exist, and I don't believe anyone else does. Proving God exist requires acceptance of some fundamental notions that in themselves require acceptance or belief, and still this is not evidence or proof of God.

In this life God exist by faith and faith alone. Without faith, God is not real.

2 Corinthians 4:4
Because the god of this world has made blind the minds of those who have not faith, so that the light of the good news of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not be shining on them.

I heard this the night of the debate. I really think that Lennox did well defending the faith!

I think you are right, only if we include atheism too. Atheists believe what they do by faith as well. However, the evidence clearly favors the existence of God by far.

Belief without evidence is wrong, I think, no matter what one believes.

...but dear, Shekel, I face every day without evidence of God, though I still believe. I struggle, and it's a wonder.

The sun shines both on good and ill willed people, and even those that are unrighteous may love their children just as a righteous.

What I may show to someone another can argue, and write it off to randomness, coincidence or a natural process.

So, I think it that my belief is a blessing, that God said of me "and he shall believe," and I believe without evidence. Had not the Lord said this I would be lost, and should the Lord say " he shall loose faith" I am again also lost.

It is like a compass needle that knows to point north, it just does. Science can explain that, but science cannot explain why some people truely believe in God.

It is not people that chooses to believe God, it is God who calls people to believe. God says "Dean will be a believer" and so it is. This doesn't take evidence for proving God. His Word is enough.

I think what you said is true, more or less. However, the bible has a great many examples where the prophet or apostle is reasoning with people to believe based upon evidence of some sort, ether fulfilled prophecy, or creation, or conscience. Therefore, God does not expect us to believe without good reasons to believe, although it seems that in God's eyes men are very slow and hard of heart to believe the obvious truth that He is.

But I do concede, that it seems to me, both by personal experience and by the bible, that faith is the gift of God.

Does God give the gift to everybody? Or was Abraham the only one? Nations...Whole nations? Was Abraham the only one to hear God? What about the American Indian before the white man came? Did they hear God too? Was it a gift to them?

It's my personal belief that God did all three you mentioned and would have saved by faith and eventually led a people to his Son...

But a people can sin against God through their own conscience and the witness around them.

Abraham didn't have a written word but he heard God. I'm guessing it was offered up to all...just by what scripture tells us about how God reveals himself...

if God gives faith to one person, but not another (all other things being equal), then,.........God is Partial...........in other words, God is a Calvinist.


but, the Bible clearly says that God is not Partial.

there must have been something,...........something,........about Abraham, that God CHOSE Abe.

i'm thinking that,
if God senses that a person is (potentially) an earnest, honest seeker of truth, God, Love, righteousness, etc........then, God will draw that person.

If God senses that a person is (potentially) willing to repent from evil works to good works, then God will help that person to believe.

If a person is un-repentant, God closes their SPIRITUAL eyes, ears and understanding, so that they can't believe the Gospel..........(they are walking in darkness)

If a person is repentant, God opens their SPIRITUAL eyes , ears, understanding , and God gives them faith to believe the Gospel.


the Destiny of the saved and the lost are greatly different, and God is not Partial, so,............there must be SOMETHING commendable about the saved,................if not, then God is flippant and ir-rational, un-righteous, un-loving,

that SOMETHING is:
the saved are repentant.
the un-saved are un-repentant.

the un-saved (un-repentant) are not sorry that they hurt you today, and they plan to hurt you again tomorrow, if they have opportunity.

the saved (repentant) are sorry that they hurt you today, and they plan to never do that again. (with God's help)

all sin hurts people.

homo-sex hurts people
also, so does public nudity, incest, swearing and coarse talk in the presence of women and children, not helping the poor, gluttony, drunken-ness, drug-abuse, adultery, fornication, extra-marital sex and births, ALL THESE THINGS HURT PEOPLE, SO GOD HAS FORBADE THEM.

I think we're all a dead slab of meat until God tenderizes us and puts us in his oven. Then he can serve up the tender meat to waiting hungry children.

contrary to what CALVINISTS claim to believe,

DEAD SLABS OF MEAT (un-regenerated people) can sin,
and feel pangs of guilt for past sins,
and feel sorry for their crimes,
and repent, and believe the Gospel,
and other things.

so, un-redeemed persons are not totally incapable of all things, as CALVINISTS claim.

the DEAD analogy can be carried only to a limit.

Every flesh desires to live, but it will not. The flesh perishes, and, it is the disheartened spirit that slays.

Flesh upon flesh and spirit upon spirit, never flesh upon spirit or spirit upon flesh. So, when I believe in Christ it comes by the Spirit to my spirit in that I am blessed with wisdom and revelation, by which salvation comes.

If I seek my faith by evidence then it is flesh upon my flesh and my spirit is not satisfied. My flesh still perishes and I have not found salvation.

There are many spirits and there is the Spirit of God, and of the many spirits there are many more that seek destruction, and God knows their misery and he shall oblige them for they will be destroyed.

The man (or woman) who have no belief in Christ is made so by a miserable spirit, and God lets what shall become to be in all things. So, this spirit is allowed to have the power to blind and this spirit is the god of this world, and this spirit is the spirit of the antichrist.

2 Corinthians 4:4
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

But there shall be the day when this spirit of the antichrist shall be destroyed and no longer will there be disbelief of Christ. Every man and woman will see, every knee shall bow, all thereafter will exhalt the Lord.

The world is governed by laws of physics that work everytime. Consider our solar system.
The sun is just the right distance from earth to sustain life. The moon thru it's gravitational effects
on the earth govern the tides. We have just the right amount of oxygen to sustain life. I could go
on and on about the evidence of a LAW GIVER. There is life on the little planet because God
created life on this planet, it's a simple as that. The Holy scriptures testify to God's word concerning
the creation. I believe the reason many can't admit to the presence of a creator God is because
they want to live in their sins. To believe in God would be to believe in His word and cause one
to be answerable to His authority. Mankind has always prefered to believe a lie, any lie that would
allow them to live in sin obeying their lusts of the flesh. It would be far harder to believe anything
other than the Holy word of God. Just because people won't believe, does not make it less true.
Jesus came to this world, born of a virgin to die for the consequences of sin. Jesus fulfilled the
Law so that He could become the sinless sacrifice for our sins. God had to pay his own penalty as
there was NO man that was sinless or righteous. After his atoning work on the cross, He rose
from His grave on the third day and rose again to Heaven to sit on the right hand of God the Father
to ever intercede for those who trust and believe onto His name for their salvation.
Everyone must be born again of the spirit of God. When we confess our sins and accept Jesus
as Lord and saviour, Jesus forgives our sins, all of them. We pray to God to receive the Holy Spirit
and the spirit of God Almighty enters our bodies to aid us in our daily spiritual walk. The very
Spirit of God testifies to our spirit that we ARE SAVED in Christ's name. We should communicate
everyday with our Saviour thru prayer, speak to Him like you would speak to you BEST Friend.
Jesus wants to be Lord of your life and anyone who sincerely asks Jesus to be their Lord and
Saviour will receive forgiveness and eternal life with God in His Kingdom.
Confess your sins always to your God the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy word says that anyone who
calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. There is NO other name that we might be saved by
under Heaven. Jesus is OUR GOD. Invite Jesus into your life and He will enter your life thru His
spirit and remain with you forever. You will forever be with Christ in His Kingdom and you will
have a new spiritual body, just like our Lord's that is not subject to corruption, sickness or death.
Ask Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour today, today is the day of salvation... don't put it off for
another day, know that you belong to Christ. It is very important, it will decide where you spend
the rest of eternity.. either in Heaven with Jesus or in hell with Satan and his fallen angels.
Make your decision today, before it is too late. Jesus could return for his church, His spiritual
body at any time... call on the name of the Lord and BE SAVED... it is the most important decision
that you will ever make.. make it NOW.. today.

God Bless all.
Thunder

Good exhortation.

You must be an evangelist at heart.

This debate is insane. Great stuff.

http://dnascienceconstructspathtogod.blogs...1999-penny.html


( excerpt from link )

SUMMARY


All these pathways are teaching universal wisdom of a single point, the DOT, the prime number and the `Alpha-Omega`.


The creation story of Genesis, includes scientific equations, not understood without sacred geometry. The Sovereignty of God (IHVH), reigns. Each assigned mission is a calling unto His Glory being established. Salvation does not require a knowledge of science.

However, the knowledge of science, can construct a pathway straight to the throne of `The Almighty God (IHVH)`.

Without the infinity, limitless equations of science, some believer’s in the Sovereignty of God (IHVH) would have remained dogmatic infidel’s, hiding under the umbrella of evolution.

The Agnostic and Atheist with a breathe remaining, can be converted through holistic study of sacred geometry. Salvation through Jesus (888), the Messiah(888), embraces the parallel’s between science and religion.

Wonderful debate, I enjoyed every minute of it.

Um, no, God can exist through evidence as well.


God can be real with evidence too.


Um, probably millions have. C knows someone that heard God.