Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog,
wrote to Pope Pius on February 28, 1944 the following message:

"The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."


"The Pope sent out the order that religious buildings were to give refuge to Jews, even at the price of great personal sacrifice on the part of their occupants; he released monasteries and convents from the cloister rule forbidding entry into these religious houses to all but a few specified outsiders, so that they could be used as hiding places. Thousands of Jews—the figures run from 4,000 to 7,000—were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses. Unknown numbers of Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, the site of the Pope's summer residence, private homes, hospitals, and nursing institutions; and the Pope took personal responsibility for the care of the children of Jews deported from Italy."



A Jewish couple sheltered by the Pope stated:
"None of us wanted the Pope to take an open stand. We were all fugitives, and fugitives do not wish to be pointed at. The Gestapo would have become more excited and would have intensified its inquisitions. If the Pope had protested, Rome would have become the center of attention. It was better that the Pope said nothing. We all shared this opinion at the time, and this is still our conviction today."


Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent the following message April 7, 1944:
"It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."

Rabbi Lapide wrote down in his records: "in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope's summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute."


The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, made a statement of thanks:
"What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism."

"We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. . . . During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people passed through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims" (Golda Meir, Israeli representative to the U.N. and future prime minister of Israel).


And Albert Einstein writes:

"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty."

"More than anyone else, we have had the opportunity to appreciate the great kindness, filled with compassion and magnanimity, that the Pope displayed during the terrible years of persecution and terror" (Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi of Rome)

Pope Pius XII wrote:
"If the protest of the Dutch Bishops has cost the lives of 40,000 people, my intervention would take at least 200,000 people to their deaths."


It is estimated that Pope Pius XII was responsible for saving 860,000 Jews throughout occupied Europe and the financial cost was staggering let alone the cost in Catholic lives and miseries.


What I don`t understand is how are these facts hidden from common knowledge.

America and Britain only saved 10,000 Jewish refuges each during the entire war!

What you site are isolated cases. Pope Pius XII, known as "Hitler's Pope" was "two-faced" due to his fears between what dominant state would be the ruling political doctrine of Europe, skewed-Christian German Nazism or the anti-Christian Russian Communism. Pius staked survival of the Pontiff and Catholicism on the political outcome of Hitler's Nazism and thus placated to Hitler, secretly, while attempting to present another face to the world and the Jews. It was under Pius that the post-war Nazis were escorted to Argentina as secreted refugees along with the confiscated wealth of the Jews, even the U.S. and British government hands are dirtied in this matter (Operation: Paper Clip). One controversial theory cites that Hitler, himself, was given a new identity as a Jesuit Priest who took refuge in Argentina until he died in 1960 of natural causes living out the remainder of his years in tranquility and peace; a Hitler-double was reportedly the suicide corpse found in Hitler's bunker at the end of WWII when the Liberators arrived. Contrary to our simplistic understanding of history, it’s all a very complicated web of intrigue and betrayal due to the third fearful agent that began to emerge on the world scene at the end of WWII, Russian Communism; this changed the strategies of the Allies.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/richard/chesnoff041700.asp

http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/hitlers.htm

http://farshores.org/sc05hitl.htm

http://pierrejoubert.blogspot.com/2005/05/...ed-in-1960.html

Sometimes one has to 'dance with the devil' to get something done. Witness Oskar Schindler, for instance. A man who saved many Jews, though on paper he was a Nazi.

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/schindler/

If Pope Pius Xll had actually saved 860,000 Jews, I can understand the need to give the impression of being a so-called 'friend of Hitler's'.

Only God knows for sure.

In Christ, Angela

A true man of God does not dance to the tune of "another master". Though the great prophet Daniel, also a Jewish statesman, was in the court of Nebuchadnezzar during the Babylonian captivity, he was a true man of God who dance only to the tune of the Great Maestro. Pope Pius XII, and all other Popes, are contradistinct in their devotion to "another" identified as God and Christ in name only, but are completely and totally devoid of those Authentic Personhoods.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/world/A0820714.html


ghetto

ghetto (get'ō) [key], originally, a section of a city in which Jews lived; it has come to mean a section of a city where members of any racial group are segregated. In the early Middle Ages the segregation of Jews in separate streets or localities was voluntary. The first compulsory ghettos were in Spain and Portugal at the end of the 14th cent. The ghetto was typically walled, with gates that were closed at a certain hour each night, and all Jews had to be inside the gate at that hour or suffer penalties. The reason generally given for compulsory ghettos was that the faith of Christians would be weakened by the presence of Jews; the idea of Jewish segregation dates from the Lateran Councils of 1179 and 1215. Within the ghetto the inhabitants usually had autonomy, with their own courts of law, their own culture, and their own charitable, recreational, educational, and religious institutions. Economic activities, however, were restricted, and beyond the ghetto walls Jews were required to wear badges of identification. One of the most infamous ghettos was that of Frankfurt, to which Jews were compelled to move by a city ordinance of 1460. Crowded into a narrow section, the ghetto underwent several disastrous fires. The ghetto in Venice was established in 1516 after long negotiations between the city and the Jews. In 1870 the last ghetto in Western Europe, in Rome, was abolished. In Russia the Jewish Pale continued to exist until 1917. After the 18th cent. ghettos were also to be found in some Muslim countries. During World War II the Nazis set up ghettos in many towns in E Europe from which Jews were transported to concentration camps for liquidation; the Warsaw (Poland) ghetto was a prime example. In the United States, African Americans, Chicanos, and immigrant groups have been forced to live in ghettos through economic and social forces rather than being required to do so by law. See also anti-Semitism.

The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia, 6th ed. Copyright © 2007, Columbia University Press. All rights reserved.

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http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0804272.html


anti-Semitism

anti-Semitism (ăn"tē-sem'itiz"um, ăn"tī–) [key], form of prejudice against Jews, ranging from antipathy to violent hatred. Before the 19th cent., anti-Semitism was largely religious and was expressed in the later Middle Ages by sporadic persecutions and expulsions—notably the expulsion from Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella—and in severe economic and personal restrictions (see ghetto). However, since Jews were generally restricted to the pursuit of occupations that were taboo, such as moneylending, the sentiment was also economic in nature.

If Britain and the USA could only refuge 20, 000 Jews throughout the entire war combined what does it tell you?


The Pope sheltered 10,000 just in the Vatican City and Castel Gandolfo alone!


When the Catholic Dutch Bishops stood in open defence of the Jews many thousands of Catholics were murdered along side the Jews, 40, 000 in total.

That is why Pope Pius XII wrote:
"If the protest of the Dutch Bishops has cost the lives of 40,000 people, my intervention would take at least 200,000 people to their deaths."


I can`t imagine what that was like to hide 7000 Jews in Vatican City, you are talking about an operation of a massive scale which they achieved. The Germans would have killed everyone at the Vatican if they found out!


The number of 700, 000 to 860,000 Jews saved by the actions of the Pope is what was calculated by the state of Israel after the war!

What many people don`t realize is the massive smear campaign that the communists started to deliberately darken the reputation of Pope and the Vatican which to them was a huge threat to communism after the war.


The quotes I provided are from leading Jewish Rabbi`s of the time when these horrors were occuring and they are far from being "a few isolated cases."

Sorry, history paints another picture from what you have embraced. People make the terrible mistake of judging the Vatican based off its "actions", rather than based off the "reasons" for its actions. The reason"WHY" the Vatican concealed the Jews was not a "humanirarian" one, but rather a "political ace" up Pope Pius XII's sleeve. The Vatican (being anti-Communistic) saw Hitler as a safeguard against Communism, and despite the end of the war, Pope Pius XII continued to remain "silent" over denouncing Hitler and the Nazi agenda because of it. By having thousands of Jewish refugees sheltered in the catacombs of the Vatican was Puis's "backup plan" to save face with the Allies if the Nazis were defeated... "See, we saved the Jews, so we weren't on the side of the Nazis."

"The Response of the Vatican" - Facing History & Ourselves - Strom & Parsons

The role of Pope Pius XII and the Vatican response to the events of this history are the subject of serious analysis and interpretation. When accounts of the "final solution" were reported to the Pope Pius, no strong statements were made, nor was Hitler excommunicated from the church. According to Abram Sachar:

"The consistent rationale offered for the silence was that it was necessary first to corroborate the reports. Under pressure, there was an annoyed response that "in order to avoid slightest appearance of partiality, His Holiness had imposed upon himself, in word and deed, the most delicate reserve." The "delicate reserve" was maintained even as Jews were being rounded up in Rome itself. Later, much later, a Papal spokesman indicated that "the Pontiff had decided, after many tears and many prayers, that a denunciation of the Nazis from the Vatican might further rouse the ferocity of the Nazis and result in more, rather than fewer, deaths." There were, of course, not too many left to worry about after six million had been murdered. Monsignor Montini, later to become Pole Paul VI, added: "The time may come when, in spite of such a grievous prospect the Holy Father will feel himself obliged to speak out." But that time never came. The duty to speak out was always counter balanced by the fear of weakening Germany and opening the way to the triumph of atheist communism."

When students ask about those institutions that had the power to make a difference, it's important to consider the responses of the Vatican and its leadership before and during the deportation of Jews from Rome.

No protest was heard from Pius XII when, in 1935, Germany promulgated its own infamous statutes of racial purity in the Nuremberg Laws...The roundup of Jews by the Nazis began in Rome in the fall of 1943.
On October 18, over 1,000 Roman Jews, more than two-thirds of them women and children, were deported from the Eternal City to Auschwitz. On October 28, the German ambassador, Ernst Heinrich von Weizsacker, reported to Berlin: "Although under pressure from all sides the Pope (Pius XII) has not let himself be drawn into any demonstrative censure of the deportation of Jews from Rome."

SOME REASONS GIVEN FOR THE VATICAN RESPONSES:

1. Fear of Reprisals: The Vatican feared Nazi reprisals against German Catholics and for that reason tried to preserve good diplomatic relations with Germany.

2. Fear for the Jews: Some scholars argue that Pope Pius XII believed that a formal protest from him would have caused more harm to the Jews and endangered Catholics as well. Vatican sources say he knew that Hitler would not have changed his anti-Jewish policies.

3. Catholic Lands: There was concern in the Vatican that the Nazi government would seize Catholic lands - including Vatican City - when the Germans occupied Italy in 1943.

4. Anti-communism: The Catholic Church was strongly anti-Communist and anti-Socialist. The Vatican saw Hitler as a safeguard against Communism.

the Pope is a Dictator

the RCC is NOT a democracy---------the majority (the common folk) have no say-----------the Pope needs to have Dictator-like-power over the people, to keep the RCC in power,...........

the papacy cannot last, if the people get a taste of self-rule, reading the Bible for themselves, thinking for themselves, etc

the RCC has a history of making AGREEMENTS (CONCORDS , i think is the word) with DICTATORS AND KINGS, especially in Latin America, where the Dictator strengthens and supports the RCC's power over the people, and the Pope supports the Political Dictator.
Some of the nations in Latin America made laws that made it il-legal to NOT be RCC.

Communism is (sort of) like democracy-------power in the people's hands, the common people.
The Nobility and the Elite are dethroned and despised--------which would be anathema to the pope.
Hence, the pope supported Hitler, .......and the pope opposed Communism.

Typical,
When someone points out the good works of the Pope we have people immediately jumping to blacken the Pope and ascribe evil motives to his good works. I wonder how many Jews the protestant churches harboured. Would we like God to judge our works so harshly when we come up in the judgement? Or do we speak with such harsh and bitter tongues because we believe ourselves to be beyond judgement?

The Lutheran church without a whimper allowed itself and all protestant churches to be bundled up into a big church called the Protestant Reich Church. A tiny minority of pastors resisted and formed the Confessing Church. Even this church was woefully ineffective and practically silent in its opposition to the slaughter of Jews. In fact if you scour the history books of all the protestant nations of the world and you will find that Protestantism was not only silent about the Jewish Holocaust but it was also impotent and DID NOTHING.

So Dennis and 7T stop being the pot calling the kettle black.

"Handsome is as Handsome does" is one of my favourite sayings.

And in this case the Catholics did the good deed, even if they were prudent in what they said while they were doing it.

Thanks for the info Grego. I did not know this little piece of history. This thread has reminded me of The Parable of the Two Sons
Matt 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

So the Catholic son may not have given noisy lip service to his Father but he did his Fathers work nonetheless. Whereas the Protestant son DID NOTHING. In fact he did less than nothing because he did not even pay noisy lip service to his Father.

Ex... Your typically wild criticism and sweeping generalization against Protestantism as a whole on the lack of objection on the Jewish Holocaust completely falls flat, because German Protestantism and the Confessing Church under the Nazi Regime was a skewed “schism” that vacated the Christian tenets of pre-Nazi Protestantism, and embraced politicized anti-Semitism where the primary clergy and key theologians, Gerhard Kittel, Paul Althaus, and Emanual Hirsch, placated the Fuehrer. At this point German Protestantism ceased to be genuine Protestantism.

Additionally, the actual goings-on of the Holocaust was insulated within Germany, not even the local German citizenry of Auschwitz and Dachau knew of the slaughter of the Jews in the death camps located in their very own backyards until “after” the war…. So how on earth were Protestants in England, Canada and the U.S. to object to something entirely unknown? Mussolini’s Italy was apart of the Axis Powers (including Franco’s Spain), and were gearing up for the processing of Jews in those states; hence, the relocation of the Jews of Rome was known, but only within the insulated Axis.

The next time you throw my name into one of your ranting diatribes, I would truly appreciate it if you would actually and exactly quote word-for-word what I have posted that you are criticizing, instead of just making a flagrant and sweeping accusation against me and lumping my name with the comments of other posters.

-7

You are the sad sack 7T who will not let the Pope have his day in the sun. You rant and rave all you like. But the Pope has the runs on the board with this one. All your excuses for Protestant apathy won't wash because the uninsulated Protestants outside Germany did no more for the sake of the Jews than the insulated Protestants inside Germany.

Also the Pope didn't cling to any i'm-so-insulated excuse but actually did something for the Jews. Surely any fair-minded individual, protestant or otherwise, can pay him his dues instead of using the occasion to froth into one-eyed catholic bashing.

The fact that you could not make any positive comment to mirror the appreciation of the Jewish survivors of the holocaust toward the Pope therefore leads me to conclude that you are not therefore numbered amongst the fair-minded. And that is not a sweeping generalisation, that is a very specific accusation directed entirely at you and Dennis M who has the same ungracious attitude as you do.

I have personally experienced the hatred of protestants, and there is a great deal of damage to our parish property the usual hate messages spray painted on walls.


Yes all the constant stream of anticatholic propaganda has really matured in a generation of protestants who hate Catholics with a passion. There is no stopping it now that it has gone generational.

THE SEVEN THUNDERS you wrote:
"Sorry, history paints another picture from what you have embraced."

So the gratitude which the Rabbi`s of Rome, Jerusalem and Romania showed to Pope Pius XII was misplaced?

And perhaps Golda Meir and Albert Einstein were not smart enough to realize that they were praising a Nazi Pope and church?

I was going to show a great line up factual information but it would not be appreciated by most here judging from the minimal responses.

There is a book you can read called "Three Popes and the Jews" it is packed with easily proven factual information.

God bless you and take care.

Actions speak louder than words. I never once claimed Oskar Schindler to be a man of God, Christian, or anything of that nature. I just said to get something done...


He does when directed to do in order to trip him up! 7T, do you know for a fact that the Lord wasn't directing Pope Pius' footsteps? Like I said, only God knows.

Giving the impression of being a 'friend to Hitler' is a whole lot different than being one. It would take wisdom and subterfuge to pull it off. I have not heard that Pope Pius denied the Lord, merely used wisdom to save lives, and a lot of lives at that. The Lord had spies sent into Canaan, and that required subterfuge as well.

What's all the talk in world going to do without actions to back them up? For faith without works is dead.

In Christ, Angela

Excellent point Angela. and Grego, Thank you for posting the truth. There are too many lies and hatred being spread around and called love. Evil will be called good and good will be called evil.


God bless,
K.D.




really, 2000 years and billions of followers. It is amazing to see Gods promise in action, Despite your dire predictions.

THE ENABLING ACT

From- Collier's Encyclopedia, 1960 Edition

page 456 ................................ GERMANY

"......... The Reichstag, with the support even of some Socialists and the Catholics, passed an enabling act, which was the first of a series of laws and decrees that converted the democratic republic into a totalitarian state with Hitler as supreme leader.

Simultaneously the anti-Semitic policies of the Nazis were put into effect, and Jews, persons with partly Jewish blood, and persons married to Jews were disqualified from participation in virtually every phase of German national and cultural life. Eventually this policy was widened to include genocide, that is, the slaying of whole nations or peoples which the Nazis considered inferior or dangerous to the Germans as a source of racial corruption. ...............

the [Roman] Catholic hierarchy found its hands tied by the Concordat of 1933 between the Third Reich and the Papacy,....."

-END QUOTE-

From .................. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NAZI GERMANY

By Guenter Lewy

Page 35

"In the evening session of the Reichstag, which followed a dramatic afternoon meeting of the Center [ROMAN CATHOLIC] party faction, Monsignor Kaas rose to announce that the Party, despite certain misgivings, would vote for the Enabling Act. The English historian Bullock calls this fateful step "a fitting close to the shabby policy of compromise with the Nazis which the Center party had followed since the summer of 1932."

-END QUOTE-

[.................... THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND NAZI GERMANY .........

Pub by- McGraw-Hill Book Company

Copyright 1964 .......... LIBRARY OF CONGRESS No. 64-21072

"Guenter Lewy left his native Germany as a boy of fifteen in 1939, emigrated to Palestine and then to the United States. He has since taught at Columbia University and Smith College, and is now Associate Professor of Government at the University of Massachusetts" ]

K.D.

[quote name='dennis mann' post='122003' date='Sep 16 2007, 08:17 PM']
the papacy cannot last, if the people get a taste of self-rule, reading the Bible for themselves, thinking for themselves, etc

[/quote]


really, 2000 years and billions of followers. It is amazing to see Gods promise in action, Despite your dire predictions.
[/quote]

Rev 12 informs us of Satan who has "decieved the whole world". Road to hell is crowded. Blind lead the blind. No surprise that for centuries many have followed the pope [and many other frauds] rather that follow Jesus.

I know a handful (actually only two) Democrats who are pro-life. One can always find a fragment that are out of step with the majority of the group, party, church, etc..

I was raised a Catholic, and though I do not agree with the doctrine, I would not accuse them of not following Christ, for Christ is central to the faith. They believe Christ died for the remission of sins, and by His grace we are saved. That makes them my brethren; we may disagree about the use or need of intercessors, but they are Christians.



1.3 billion currently following the obvious lies of satan in islam, not to mention the untold number of atheists, hindus, buddists, and so on, and you're harping on the Catholics? As far as I know, all churches have an earthly 'head' or 'leader', even 'chairman of the board', are they not the equivalent of a 'pope'? I'm Pentacostal now, and I know I follow Jesus, yet the IPHC has it's equivalent of a 'pope' in it's presiding bishop.

In Christ, Angela

Angela wrote:
I know a handful (actually only two) Democrats who are pro-life. One can always find a fragment that are out of step with the majority of the group, party, church, etc..

JP wrote:The whole divisive abortion political "issue" is a Vatican created sidetrack.

Angela wrote: I was raised a Catholic, and though I do not agree with the doctrine, I would not accuse them of not following Christ, for Christ is central to the faith. They believe Christ died for the remission of sins, and by His grace we are saved. That makes them my brethren; we may disagree about the use or need of intercessors, but they are Christians.

JP wrote:
If the pope really is all that RC doctrine claims the pope is, then you should still be Roman Catholic.
If the pope really is all that RC doctrine claims the pope is, we all should be Roman Catholic.

If the pope is not really what RC doctrine claims the pope is, then all popes have been frauds.
Pure and simple.

Catholic doctrine [even in its most modern formulation] DOES NOT teach that simply "by His grace we are saved".

[JP quote]Rev 12 informs us of Satan who has "decieved the whole world". Road to hell is crowded. Blind lead the blind. No surprise that for centuries many have followed the pope [and many other frauds] rather that follow Jesus.[/quote]

Angela wrote: 1.3 billion currently following the obvious lies of satan in islam, not to mention the untold number of atheists, hindus, buddists, and so on, and you're harping on the Catholics? As far as I know, all churches have an earthly 'head' or 'leader', even 'chairman of the board', are they not the equivalent of a 'pope'? I'm Pentacostal now, and I know I follow Jesus, yet the IPHC has it's equivalent of a 'pope' in it's presiding bishop. In Christ, Angela [/quote]

JP wrote: The title of this thread is Pope vs Hitler. Atheists, hindus, buddist etc aren't the subject of this particular thread.

I would agree with you that the "churches" of what is commonly known as organized religion all have earthly leaders. Jesus told as many people to become Methodist and Baptist [for instance] as He told to become Roman Catholic. The pope being a fraud does not make the rest of organized religion "right." Jesus said His people heed His voice. Jesus's Church only has ONE head, and Jesus is that head.

You say you "follow Jesus", yet you say the "IPHC" has the "equivalent of a 'pope'. I don't think you fully comprehend the awesome claims of the popes. Following man made doctrine and tradition, and various professional clergy is not the same as in fact following Jesus.

What do you make of Revelation chapers 17 & 18 ?

[quote name='John Prewett' date='Sep 26 2007, 11:12 PM' post='122821']
Angela wrote:
I know a handful (actually only two) Democrats who are pro-life. One can always find a fragment that are out of step with the majority of the group, party, church, etc..

JP wrote:The whole divisive abortion political "issue" is a Vatican created sidetrack.

Angela wrote: I was raised a Catholic, and though I do not agree with the doctrine, I would not accuse them of not following Christ, for Christ is central to the faith. They believe Christ died for the remission of sins, and by His grace we are saved. That makes them my brethren; we may disagree about the use or need of intercessors, but they are Christians.

JP wrote:
If the pope really is all that RC doctrine claims the pope is, then you should still be Roman Catholic.
If the pope really is all that RC doctrine claims the pope is, we all should be Roman Catholic.

If the pope is not really what RC doctrine claims the pope is, then all popes have been frauds.
Pure and simple.

Catholic doctrine [even in its most modern formulation] DOES NOT teach that simply "by His grace we are saved".

[JP quote]Rev 12 informs us of Satan who has "decieved the whole world". Road to hell is crowded. Blind lead the blind. No surprise that for centuries many have followed the pope [and many other frauds] rather that follow Jesus.[/quote]

Angela wrote: 1.3 billion currently following the obvious lies of satan in islam, not to mention the untold number of atheists, hindus, buddists, and so on, and you're harping on the Catholics? As far as I know, all churches have an earthly 'head' or 'leader', even 'chairman of the board', are they not the equivalent of a 'pope'? I'm Pentacostal now, and I know I follow Jesus, yet the IPHC has it's equivalent of a 'pope' in it's presiding bishop. In Christ, Angela [/quote]

JP wrote: The title of this thread is Pope vs Hitler. Atheists, hindus, buddist etc aren't the subject of this particular thread.

I would agree with you that the "churches" of what is commonly known as organized religion all have earthly leaders. Jesus told as many people to become Methodist and Baptist [for instance] as He told to become Roman Catholic. The pope being a fraud does not make the rest of organized religion "right." Jesus said His people heed His voice. Jesus's Church only has ONE head, and Jesus is that head.

You say you "follow Jesus", yet you say the "IPHC" has the "equivalent of a 'pope'. I don't think you fully comprehend the awesome claims of the popes. Following man made doctrine and tradition, and various professional clergy is not the same as in fact following Jesus.

What do you make of Revelation chapers 17 & 18 ?
[/quote]


Actually, by what you wrote, I can see it is you who does not understand the Pope. Either that or you are purposely misrepresenting it. But like you said, that is not what this thread is about. It is about the terrible mistruths being spread about the Popes role with Hitler.

God Bless,
K.D.

Maybe we are all missing the point here.

Pius 10 may have been a great guy, regardless of what Sanctimonious 3 and Machiavelli 5 were like.

Point is, the Pope says something is a sin and you all believe him.
That whole institution is barmy rubbish.

The biblical definition of a Saint and the Pope's are two different things.

Is God wrong and the Pope right?

Depends what you mean by Saint. If you are referring to a general reference to all believers or a historical figure of the church that gave us an example worth following. I don't see how this goes against anything in the Bible. Further what the church defines as sin comes from the Bible and what has been taught from the Bible and the Apostles. I would hardly call that rubbish. But of course none of this has anything to do with the OP topic, of why people, mainly protestant Christians, are distorting or out right misrepresenting the truth about the Pope and Hitler. What is the reason for the deception and lies?

God Bless,
K.D.

KD,

are you a catholic by choice or by nurture?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A Saint is someone who has been sanctified.

Who sanctifies?

The Holy Spirit? The Word? Jesus Christ?

Or the Pope?

------------

Regarding Sin.

The Catholic Church bans Priests from having a wife. Consequently the so-called priests exercise their sexual passions on young boys. The Catholic church tries desperately to supress the matter from coming to light, and when it does come to light acts as if it is above or beyond the Law of the land.

There are so many issues here in this one matter that it beggars belief.

The Catholic Church has totally ignored scripture, as always. Paul's unction was 'Better to marry than to burn'........pure and simple.........and is crystal clear in his letter to Timothy

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry[color=#CC33CC], [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

That the Catholic Church then acts as if it is above the Law of any land then tells us a great deal also...........

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Pope is infallible? What a load of unholy tosh.

Actually, by what you wrote, I can see it is you who does not understand the Pope. Either that or you are purposely misrepresenting it. But like you said, that is not what this thread is about. It is about the terrible mistruths being spread about the Popes role with Hitler.

God Bless,
K.D.
[/quote]


OK, "pope vs Hitler".

Do you agree Hitler lived and died a Roman Catholic in good standing?

[as did most of his high level subordinates].

Do you agree that RC clerical establishment gave moral support to the Nazi regime ?

As the Croat RC clergy gave moral support to the USTASHI.


Do you agree that most [if not all] of Hitlers fellow WW2 European dictators were Roman Catholic ?

Were any ever excommunicated ? Was any death camp director ever excommunicated ?

Do you agree that oft quoted [by the congregation] Catholic doctrine openly referred to "perfidious Jews" ?

[This particular part of doctrine was not deleted until the early sixties. Around the same time former heretics were redefined as "separated brothers".]

And don't waste time telling us how other branches of organized religion did no better.

People really fit to be called Christian were labeled "mentally ill" and murdered by the Nazi dominated mental institution.

mainly protestant Christians? How do you know that?
The OP indulges in its own layering of fantasy on fact.




What a fatuous remark.

If America hadn't entered the war, Germany might have won and attempted to kill off the entire Jewish race.

How significant do you think the Concordat of 1933 between Nazi Germany and the Vatican was?
Open question really to Grego or anyone else.

Yes that`s a good question "the significance of the Concordat" , the answer comes swiftly when you are shown the fact that the Catholic Church under Pope Pius XII saved 860 000 Jews from the Nazi`s murderous rampage.


The fact that 1933 is before the extermination program of the Jews had begun is significant aswell and WWII had not started yet.


Just because the Vatican City is the smallest nation in the world doesn`t mean it must`nt estabish a dialogue and a relationship with all nations in some form or another because you can`t make disciples of "all nations" unless you are in communications with "all nations" , including Nazi nations.

Okay, I was either not very articulate in the points that I was trying to make, or the points I made were willfully overlooked.


It was one of Sister Maureen's (my school principal) favorite sayings to me when I was a child. It came to the front of my mind when I was writing.


Abortion was not the point- it was that one can find fragments of any group not lining up with the party-line.


The pope has very little to do with my personal decision to not follow the RCC, it was mainly the use of intercessors. They are still my, and your, brethren, by the simple fact that they are Christian.


That was the only point I was trying to make! I wholeheartedly agree that Jesus is the Head of the Church.


I probably don't understand the pope, K.D. I admit that.

I just don't want to stand idly by while other CHRISTIANS are being bashed, especially by other 'Christians', when they're so many non-christians willing to do so.


Equivalent in the respect of having an earthly head. Please don't blow it out of proportion.

No, I didn't just say that I follow Christ, I DO follow Christ, I don't just give lip-service. Frankly, I don't even know the name of the presiding bishop of the IPHC, because I don't follow the earthly head, I follow the REAL head, Jesus. (The minute I hear it said that we should follow an earthly head instead of Jesus will also be the minute I look for a different church, too.)

I don't know what these 'awesome claims of the popes' are, so how could I miscomprehend them?


Excellent point.

Either way, it looks like it's going to get nasty on this thread, so I'm just going to pray for all here. I hope I've not offended any of my brothers or sisters in Christ here.

YSIC, Angela

Angela-It was one of Sister Maureen's (my school principal) favorite sayings to me when I was a child. It came to the front of my mind when I was writing.

JP-If she taught as you relate to us, then "Sister Maureen" would have been burned at the stake by the inquisitors a few centuries ago.

JP-Even today, The Vatican routinely attacks the RC credentials of any prominent officially Roman Catholic theologian who even comes close to teaching that "simply by His grace we are saved" [repudiating need for additional RC goobledygook].



Angela-The pope has very little to do with my personal decision to not follow the RCC,
it was mainly the use of intercessors.

JP-If the pope really is what RC claims a pope to be ["vicar of Christ"],
then to "follow Jesus", one MUST accept the leadership of the pope.

JP-If the pope really is what RC claims a pope to be, and one rejects the leadership of the pope,
then one is rejecting the leadership of Christ.

Angela-They are still my, and your, brethren, by the simple fact that they are Christian.

JP-Those fit to be labeled "CHRISTian", follow Christ.

JP-Those who follow the pope should rightfully be labeled "papist".

JP-The two families don't have the same "Holy Father".



Angela-Equivalent in the respect of having an earthly head. Please don't blow it out of proportion.

JP-Does the New Testament describe a "two headed" "church".

JP-With an "earthly head" and a "heavenly head" ?

Angela-I don't know what these 'awesome claims of the popes' are, so how could I miscomprehend them?

If you are going to defend Roman Catholicism,
you'd do well to investigate what the leader of Roman Catholicism claims to be.

FOREIGN DESK
German Bishops Cite Catholic 'Denial and Guilt' at Holocaust
By STEPHEN KINZER,
In an unusually blunt admission, Germany's Roman Catholic bishops have stated that Catholics share responsibility for the Nazi Holocaust. The bishops deplored the failure of German Catholics to act against Nazism, and asserted that they now bear a special responsibility to speak out against anti-Semitism.

January 27, 1995 World News
MORE ON ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND: JEWS, WAR CRIMES AND CRIMINALS, ANTI-SEMITISM, AUSCHWITZ CAMP, CONCENTRATION CAMPS, GERMANY, POLAND

Angela,

The quote above was not directed towards you. It was to one of the responses to your post. I very much appreciated your post. It was given in love and understanding. If your post offends anyone, they were looking to be offended.

God Bless,
K.D.




I have never hear it from any other group, have you? The Jewish community doesn't proclaim this, the Atheist could care less, and I don't see it coming from the Muslims or Buddhist. The only group I have ever heard this from is the protestant Christians. Just my observation, I don't have sicentific proof. But if you know of a different goup that makes the claim, please let me know.

K.D.wrote: I have never hear it from any other group, have you? The Jewish community doesn't proclaim this, the Atheist could care less, and I don't see it coming from the Muslims or Buddhist. The only group I have ever heard this from is the protestant Christians. Just my observation, I don't have sicentific proof. But if you know of a different goup that makes the claim, please let me know.
[/quote]

Your quite right that most criticism of Roman Catholicism comes from people your would label as "protestant." Some [I have no idea what percent] of critics of Roman Catholicsm are not members of ANY branch of what is commonly known as organized religion.

Just last night I watch a TV documentary regarding the Inquisition. As is common for "History Channel" types of documentary, throughout the documentary, the label "Roman Catholic" and "Christian" were used interchangeably. As if the two labels were synonymous. They are not.

The inquisitions were presented as a Christian activity. This was SLANDER of Jesus CHRIST.
Same slander routinely made by natural minded historians.

People who desire to serve Christ will refute slander of Christ. People who desire to serve the pope will prefer that Christ be slandered rather than the plain truth be made known regarding those who truly created and carried out the inquisitions.

Alot of you can`t make the connection between Isaiah 22 and St. Matthew 16 and the fact that "Pope" means father.

I can spend time explaining the facts but most of you would feel insulted when your arguements fall to bits and you would just reject the truth anyway.


The Apostles were infallible, so why not just one infallible successor to Peter to guide and protect the flock after the Apostles? What is so hard to accept about that?

[quote name='John Prewett' date='Oct 3 2007, 11:38 PM' post='123314']
K.D.wrote: I have never hear it from any other group, have you? The Jewish community doesn't proclaim this, the Atheist could care less, and I don't see it coming from the Muslims or Buddhist. The only group I have ever heard this from is the protestant Christians. Just my observation, I don't have sicentific proof. But if you know of a different goup that makes the claim, please let me know.
[/quote]

Your quite right that most criticism of Roman Catholicism comes from people your would label as "protestant." Some [I have no idea what percent] of critics of Roman Catholicsm are not members of ANY branch of what is commonly known as organized religion.

Just last night I watch a TV documentary regarding the Inquisition. As is common for "History Channel" types of documentary, throughout the documentary, the label "Roman Catholic" and "Christian" were used interchangeably. As if the two labels were synonymous. They are not.

The inquisitions were presented as a Christian activity. This was SLANDER of Jesus CHRIST.
Same slander routinely made by natural minded historians.

People who desire to serve Christ will refute slander of Christ. People who desire to serve the pope will prefer that Christ be slandered rather than the plain truth be made known regarding those who truly created and carried out the inquisitions.
[/quote]


You are so very correct, but for the wrong reasons, John Prewitt. The inquisitions were a political orchestration of Ferdinan and Isabella in their battle to create a nation as opposed to feudalism of the dark ages. This is the slander of Jesus Christ. That is, confusing the faith with politics. And what God's hand in all of this was will be a big surprize to you someday.

sojourner

sojourner you wrote:
"Just last night I watch a TV documentary regarding the Inquisition. As is common for "History Channel" types of documentary, throughout the documentary, the label "Roman Catholic" and "Christian" were used interchangeably. As if the two labels were synonymous. They are not."

But history says different!

"And he says to him again after the resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church's) oneness. No doubt the others were all that Peter was, but a primacy is given to Peter, and it is (thus) made clear that there is but one flock which is to be fed by all the apostles in common accord. If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church? This unity firmly should we hold and maintain, especially we bishops, presiding in the Church, in order that we may approve the episcopate itself to be the one and undivided." Cyprian, The Unity of the Church, 4-5 (A.D. 251-256).

Hello Grego. Those were not my words. I was quoting John Prewitt's words. I am in agreement with you. I am fully aware of the history of the church because by the grace of God, I took the time to look into it.

sojourner

THE SEVEN THUNDERS wrote:
"The reason"WHY" the Vatican concealed the Jews was not a "humanirarian" one, but rather a "political ace" up Pope Pius XII's sleeve."


The only "political ace" you would get if you were caught harboring Jews was a short trip to the woods and 9 grams in the back of the head.


To give you a better idea perhaps you should see the movie about this piece of history, "The Scarlet and the Black" starring Gregory Peck.


The thing is with bigotry is it is so easy to spot and expose.

Grego wrote: The Apostles were infallible, so why not just one infallible successor to Peter to guide and protect the flock after the Apostles? What is so hard to accept about that?
[/quote]

Paul got in Peter's face and sharply straightened Peter out.

Paul IN NO WAY treated Peter remotely like a "pope".

In Peter's two letters, Peter in NO WAY claims to be any kind of "pope".

Jesus's people heed Jesus's word. Jesus's word and example and Jesus's Spirit guide Jesus's people.

History has shown the popes to be authors of MANY things that modern Roman Catholicism is embarrassed by.

The inquisitions WERE created DIRECTLY by the popes. And were carried out by Roman Catholics.

Among the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions were the people truly fit to be labeled CHRISTian.

Note Jesus suffered torture and murder. Like the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions.

The clerical conductors of the Inquisitions turned the victims over to the secular government to kill.

EXACTLY like the Sanhedrin pressured the Roman governor to have Jesus killed.

The Roman Catholic clergy walked in the footsteps of those that had Jesus killed.

Among those labeled "heretics" were those who emulated Jesus.

John Prewett, fallen angels walk the earth in all manor of clothing. You can't pin these things strictly on Roman Catholicism. You are walking around with blinders on if you do. These things are the result of man's fall from grace. Count yourself blessed that God loves us in spite of ourselves.

sojourner

http://historicalstories-holisticwarrior.blogspot.com/

. . . Is the date Abraham Lincoln was murdered, a death date code warning for 2008 ? The Presidential Election year of 2008, is closing in on the selection process. Are orthodox and non-orthodox sources watching and waiting, for another murder conspiracy connected to, " The White House " ?

[quote name='John Prewett' date='Oct 9 2007, 03:07 AM' post='123731']
Grego wrote: The Apostles were infallible, so why not just one infallible successor to Peter to guide and protect the flock after the Apostles? What is so hard to accept about that?
[/quote]

Paul got in Peter's face and sharply straightened Peter out.

Paul IN NO WAY treated Peter remotely like a "pope".

In Peter's two letters, Peter in NO WAY claims to be any kind of "pope".

Jesus's people heed Jesus's word. Jesus's word and example and Jesus's Spirit guide Jesus's people.

History has shown the popes to be authors of MANY things that modern Roman Catholicism is embarrassed by.

The inquisitions WERE created DIRECTLY by the popes. And were carried out by Roman Catholics.

Among the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions were the people truly fit to be labeled CHRISTian.

Note Jesus suffered torture and murder. Like the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions.

The clerical conductors of the Inquisitions turned the victims over to the secular government to kill.

EXACTLY like the Sanhedrin pressured the Roman governor to have Jesus killed.

The Roman Catholic clergy walked in the footsteps of those that had Jesus killed.

Among those labeled "heretics" were those who emulated Jesus.
[/quote]


( in response to the above commentary, see the following information ) >>>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Hypothesis


THE (P) IS YOUR PURPOSE.


http://bishopbooyah.wordpress.com/2006/04/...diator-or-many/
1 Tim 2:5 must be understood in the light of 1 Peter 2:5: “let yourselves be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ” St. Peter says that Christians share in the one, eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ. Jesus is mediator between God and man because of His priesthood. Therefore, to share in Christ’s priesthood means to share in His mediatorship, both in heaven and on earth.
. . . the plain facts are . . . we as Christians are to be a holy priesthood.

And that is why : THE (P) IS YOUR PURPOSE.

All Christians have this commandment, (1 Peter 2:5 : "let yourselves
be built into a spiritual house {Beth/Temple}, to be a holy priesthood . . .)

Ok, take a look at this : P's language was dry and legalistic. . .P's can only be approached through the priesthood . . .( quote from link, below )

. . . summary: the system, this man designed about how to understand
the Bible in a orderly fashion, has the ' P '.
His system has : J D E P ( see below )

Do you see how the ' P ' links the genealogies, dates, numbers
and law ?
Sounds familiar to how `The Tree of Life` operates, don't you think ?

( read this, excerpt, and review his diagram below )
P — the Priestly source. Preoccupied with the centrality of the priesthood, and with lists (especially genealogies), dates, numbers and laws. P describes a distant and unmerciful God, referred to as Elohim. P partly duplicate J and E, but alters details to stress the importance of the priesthood. P consists of about a fifth of Genesis, substantial portions of Exodus and Numbers, and almost all of Leviticus. P has a low level of literary style. Composed c 550-400 BC.[7]

summary:
. . . is clearly a reminder of our Christian duty,
as priest ( THE (P) IS YOUR PURPOSE. ), we are under the priesthood of the High Priest Jesus Christ.

This is why many religions including the Jewish Sanhadren, who
assisted the Roman Catholics in killing Christ, did not want
these teachings among the brethern.

Due to their power of electing the Priest, being now disavowed.

When Christ came on the scene, his death & resurrection
allowed the mediatorship between Him (Jesus), to God (IHVH),
and we became the holy priesthood . . . The religious establishment
could not accept the ordinary common man or woman, as Priest.
This is why when Peter, told us to ' let yourselves ' be built into
a spiritual house. . . that daily sanctifications of prayer are
required of us . . . due to the sin of the flesh, we all carry !
And this is why we daily, are struggling to let ourselves be built
into a spiritual house.

This is the reason, I was recently given the encoded data
of how the nine(9) : Fruits of the Spirit Triology, are operating
in our Christian New Testament, walk . . . these nine (9) fruits
are teaching us how to be built into a spiritual house, to be a holy
priesthood . . .

(1 Peter 2:5 : "let yourselves be built into a spiritual house {Beth/Temple}, to be a holy priesthood . . .)





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Hypothesis
the J, or Jahwist, source; (The name Yahweh begins with a J in Wellhausen's native German).
the E, or Elohist, source;
the D, or Deuteronomist, source;
the P, or Priestly, source.

[quote name='John Prewett' date='Oct 9 2007, 02:07 AM' post='123731']
Grego wrote: The Apostles were infallible, so why not just one infallible successor to Peter to guide and protect the flock after the Apostles? What is so hard to accept about that?
[/quote]

Paul got in Peter's face and sharply straightened Peter out. No actually Paul disagreed with Peter and lovingly stated his thoughts. Peter listened and then agreed. This is a process very very common with the Pope and his council.

Paul IN NO WAY treated Peter remotely like a "pope". Actually he treated him very much like a Pope. Did you forget that before Paul went out to spread the gospel he had to spend 3 years with Peter. Why Peter?

In Peter's two letters, Peter in NO WAY claims to be any kind of "pope". Arguments from silence really hold no weight.

Jesus's people heed Jesus's word. Jesus's word and example and Jesus's Spirit guide Jesus's people. Yes we need to heed all of Jesus's words not just the ones we are comfortable with.

History has shown the popes to be authors of MANY things that modern Roman Catholicism is embarrassed by. I think you must have no concept of what infallibility is referring to.

The inquisitions WERE created DIRECTLY by the popes. And were carried out by Roman Catholics. You really need to do a much better job of studding history.

Among the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions were the people truly fit to be labeled CHRISTian.
Again a history lesson is needed, but one you really need to initiate on your own.

Note Jesus suffered torture and murder. Like the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions.

The clerical conductors of the Inquisitions turned the victims over to the secular government to kill.

EXACTLY like the Sanhedrin pressured the Roman governor to have Jesus killed.

The Roman Catholic clergy walked in the footsteps of those that had Jesus killed.

Among those labeled "heretics" were those who emulated Jesus.
[/quote]


God Bless,
K.D. (my responses are in red above)

crownsevenalphabet wrote:
"Paul got in Peter's face and sharply straightened Peter out."


You will take into account that Pauls ministry was to the Gentiles and not the Jews for starters.

The Jewish christians holding to the old traditions kept themselves separated from the other Gentile christians who Peter always sat with. So what was Peter going to do, just sit amongst the Gentile christians and not bother to establish dialogue or interact with those Jewish christians just because their formation into the christian life was not complete. Peter was performing this delicate "meeting half way" when suddenly Paul barges in to remind Peter of what Peter had already Peter had been "shown" regarding Jewish food customs.


The real kicker is what Paul does shortly after Peter decrees that circumcision is not necessary anymore at the council of Jerusalem. Paul circumcises Timothy "on account of the Jews" what a hypocrite!


Infalliblity has nothing to do with behavior but has to do with binding the church into a particular belief.

HELLO:

The first section, is quoted from John Prewett, NOT FROM CROWNSEVENALPHABET :



Paul got in Peter's face and sharply straightened Peter out. ( this sentence is not a crownseven
alphabet quote )

I clearly denoted, my area of commentary, about the John Prewett quote.

As you will read, I continued the line of discussion about the ' P ' meaning Priesthood !

Thank you,
crownsevenalphabet

Grego wrote:

Paul ministered to gentiles and Jews.

Sojourner, certainly Roman Catholicism is not the only example of "blind leading the blind".

As Revelation informs us, Satan has "decieved the whole world" in a variety of ways.

The Inquisitions, however, WERE a "strictly" Roman Catholic activity. As were the "Crusades".

[quote name='Kansasdad' date='Oct 10 2007, 05:01 AM' post='123797']
[quote name='John Prewett' date='Oct 9 2007, 02:07 AM' post='123731']
Grego wrote: The Apostles were infallible, so why not just one infallible successor to Peter to guide and protect the flock after the Apostles? What is so hard to accept about that?
[/quote]

Paul got in Peter's face and sharply straightened Peter out. No actually Paul disagreed with Peter and lovingly stated his thoughts. Peter listened and then agreed. This is a process very very common with the Pope and his council.

JP- Let all interested read the Galatians account and make up their own mind.

Paul IN NO WAY treated Peter remotely like a "pope". Actually he treated him very much like a Pope. Did you forget that before Paul went out to spread the gospel he had to spend 3 years with Peter. Why Peter?

JP-Where in the NT are we informed that Paul had to initially spend three years with Peter ?

In Peter's two letters, Peter in NO WAY claims to be any kind of "pope". Arguments from silence really hold no weight.

JP -Leadership of Jesus's people is a supremely important issue.

JP -Much plain scripture conflicts with the papal claims.

JP -Those who contend that a "pope" is the head of Jesus's Church do a lot more arguing from silence than do we who contend that Jesus Himself is the one and only head of Jesus's Church.

Jesus's people heed Jesus's word. Jesus's word and example and Jesus's Spirit guide Jesus's people. Yes we need to heed all of Jesus's words not just the ones we are comfortable with.

JP -I'm comfortable with "call no man father" and "you are all brothers". Are you ?

History has shown the popes to be authors of MANY things that modern Roman Catholicism is embarrassed by. I think you must have no concept of what infallibility is referring to.

JP -Even RC theologians can't get thier stories straight regarding what and when something the pope says is "infallible".

The inquisitions WERE created DIRECTLY by the popes. And were carried out by Roman Catholics. You really need to do a much better job of studding history.

JP -I've carefully studied this very point. The Inquisitions were created and refined by a succession of popes. Naturally assisted by their theologian staffs.

Among the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions were the people truly fit to be labeled CHRISTian.
Again a history lesson is needed, but one you really need to initiate on your own.

JP -Among the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions were people who confessed faith in Jesus and repudiated faith in the pope.

JP -Can't you see that the Inquisitions murdered and tortured people truly fit to be labeled CHRISTian?

JP -Or do you insist on agreeing with the killers that these people were "heretics" ?

JP -Do you deem people today who confess Jesus but repudiate the papal claims to be "heretics" ? Why not ?

JP -If RCs were right to kill such "heretics" then, why should RCs not kill us now ?

JP -People confessing Jesus Christ were being murdered, how do you think it looked from Jesus's POV ?


JP -Note Jesus suffered torture and murder. Like the VICTIMS of the Inquisitions.

JP -The clerical conductors of the Inquisitions turned the victims over to the secular government to kill.

JP -EXACTLY like the Sanhedrin pressured the Roman governor to have Jesus killed.

JP -The Roman Catholic clergy walked in the footsteps of those that had Jesus killed.

JP -Among those labeled "heretics" were those who emulated Jesus.
[/quote]


God Bless,
K.D. (my responses are in red above)
[/quote]

JP-I don't contend for the infallibility of Paul. Hopefully Tim got cut before Paul came to know "circumcision is not necessary". I'm very glad that Peter later wrote of the "great wisdom of his beloved brother Paul".

Grego, you say this, but it appears to me you are looking for a stick to beat Paul, and pedestal for Peter.

Peter was not educated in the same way as Paul. Paul was intimately educated in the ways of the legalistic classes, and therefore was able to stand up them, and their trickery and hypocrisy.

Peter was not an educated man, he was a fisherman, and it appears that he was frightened, (in fact Paul says precisely that, Gal 2 v12,) of the legalistic fraternity.


Regarding Paul circumcising Timothy. You could not preach to the Jews if you were a non-Jew.
Circumcision is the mark of a Jew, so Timothy was circumcised to clear up the grey area, which was that he was only half-Jewish.

Painful experience I should imagine....which is the real kicker, because he endured it for the love of Christ, the love of the Gospel, and the love of the Jews.