My preacher seems to be fixated on abortion and homosexuality. I understand the position of the church but this is all he talks about. Every sermon somehow comes around to these two subjects and quite frankly I'm getting tired of it. I live in rural Missouri where the meth problem is simply out of control but I've yet to hear a message on drug use. Child and spouse abuse are both way too common around here yet he has never even touched on the subject.

I'm getting to where I don't want to go to (that) church anymore because it's the same thing 3x a week. Several people have talked to him about this and he says that he just preaches "What the Lord tells me too".

It would seem to me that the Lord would want a preacher to condemn ALL sin, not just a couple of them. Suggestions?

First, I wouldn't be so quick to leave unless the Lord has specifically spelled out to you L-E-A-V-E. Otherwise, the seeds of division that Satan possibly desires to sow are given room to grow...then BAM! a whole lot of denominations spring up.

(As far as abortion and homosexuality go, nations in the Bible that embraced such things didn't last very long. He's probably very concerned about America, and rightfully so. However, balance is important.)

Second, a question: Is this preacher the sole "leader" of this church? Are there elders that hold him accountable as the New Testament teaches (1 Cor. 14:29)?

Thanks.

In Christ,

Mike

This is true but no nation that fully embraced ANY sin lasted long. Whether it be lust, greed, or whatever. I look around and while homosexuality is disgusting, it is my opinion that it is greed that is going to kill this nation. Greed and the lust for more power is probably the cause of 90% of our problems.
There are deacons and I guess they could be called "elders" but in fact 90% of our entire congregation is elderly and they don't seem to have a problem with what's being taught.

They ask us younger people why other younger people aren't coming and we keep telling them that the preacher must lay off the same thing over and over again but they pretty much ignore us.

Right now they have several "events" planned to bring in younger people but I'm afraid that they will fail because the message is still the same thing over and over. If I get tired of it imagine someone new to the church and that's all they hear. I'm just frustrated. I don't want to leave the church but I also don't want to see it wither and die because they refuse to change.

I do not think that leaving will cause a new denomination. If DT can find a church that preaches the Word, it would be great. We are suppose to get fed where we go. The real gospel must be preached and signs must follow. There is a major move of Christians world wide out of the formal structures called "church". It is a "natural" move (although inspired by God) He is calling people out of dead "churches" and into fellowship with believers, without a "name" or "denomination" It is something that is difficult to explain, but never the less, it is happening world wide at the moment. People with the gift of teaching are starting to teach, prophetic are prophesying, those with a gift for pastoring is starting to do it without the "diploma" of university degree. The people of God are starting to operate in their gifts and they are just being the church :The Called Our Ones. Called out from religion and doctrine of men, called out from institutions, called into fellowship with believers. Just that: the body coming together. It is a move of God.Nobody gets paid.

Another new (old ) thing. Believers are starting to share in the needs of other believers. Its the Christian way. We care for our brothers needs.We see a need and if we can: we meet it. We are stuarts of God's property, we are not owners of our own. God's money, not ours. We do not tithe, because we do not get to hold on the 90% and 10% to God. God owns it all. God loves a cheerful giver. He gives it to you, you give it to those in need. God sees to it that the sower has seed.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 and they sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all, according as any man had need.

The church is when we get together as the body. Sometimes the church meets in a car, when two believers travel together, sometimes in a house,when ten get together, sometimes the church is in a plane, or a boat, or a field or a mall. Sometimes they meet in a big building with a choir and they sing together.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Its not how many , its : Are they believers? If they are, then : Jesus is in the midst of them. We have a church. Its for free. Its everywhere. We are everywhere.


C

Actually C hit real close. I am considering starting to get involved with one of the small "churches" where a group of believers will simply meet at one of the members house each week.

I certainly don't want to start a new denomination but right now my preacher is simply not spiritually "feeding" me what I want or need. My wife feels the same way I do. But I will think long and hard about this and pray a whole bunch before I do anything.

DT, unless your present place of fellowship is being swamped with practising homosexuals and all the rest of the sins you are mentioning, then he would be preaching to the wrong crowd. I will give him extra credits if he was teaching people to overcome sin, praying for the homosexuals and setting them free and not just condemning sin.

I told my previous pastor we should have a sign outside the church saying: Freedom guaranteed from smoking, homosexuality, or any other bondage you might have. We as Christians should be casting out the demons and setting people free, not just telling them that they are bound (believe me, those who are bound, know they are bound. Been there, done that) He actually just smiled at me and sighed. I think that was the week I left.

My friend and I were talking about that. We live in a town of about 15,000 and one recent gov't estimate was that 0.1% of the population in the city was gay so that means about 15 people total. And as you mentioned, none go to our church. And 80% of the women at our church are too old to have a baby so I don't know why he keeps bringing abortion up. There's only 4 women who go there who are at an age where birth is practical and 3 of them are married and the 4th is a teenager but she is a really good kid and focusing on her future instead of boys. I'm not worried about her getting pregnant and having an abortion.

C, I appreciate you talking to me about this, I am not a person who quits something easily. But at least I don't feel as guilty as I did before. At least I know now that I have a valid complaint.

Dt, I am feeling God is calling you for something here. I have had the same feeling myself. The discernment is so strong that I feel everything when I walk into the church. I have been thinking God is calling us out for so time now. Maybe the wheat and the tares are being separated where you are at.
I am thinking in fact that God is doing this all over right now.
Kim

This instruction here in Matt 18:20 is not condoning Christians to leave the church and start up their own fellowships. The New Testament scriptures makes it clear that the church is a visible fellowship with a heirarchy of bishops, pastors, elders, deacons and laity. All of these men and the deaconesses were ordained and anointed by God through the ministry. We are taught to obey, serve and not to rebel against these men.

What C is describing above is not a movement of God but a damnable movement of Satan which he uses to usurp authority from the church and divide it. Divided and stripped of authority it is then prey for destruction. What C is describing above is not a movement of God it is a description of the great falling away of the last days. This has been thoroughly discussed in the Our Missing Doctrine thread
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...11771&st=5#

For those of you who feel that C or the spirit is moving you to leave your church and join a band of believers I urge you to read this thread and consider prayerfully whether this movement of the emerging church is truly a work of the Holy Spirit

Ex,
I really don't understand here...are you saying that once you pick a church you should never leave? What about people in the Navy who move around constantly? What happens when war hits our land and there is no more organized churches to go to? What do we do then?
Tensions are really heating up all over the world..do you think the US will be immune? I know I'm throwing out a bunch of variables here..but my point is you do not need to be in a church building to go to 'church'.

If we really believe the Holy Spirit will teach us why then can't we trust that to be true? I trust the Holy Spirit to lead me...I obey and serve only the Lord therefore I do not even need to worry about rebelling against man...because man is not my saviour, Jesus is. I'm really sad to hear you describe this as a movement of Satan. I think you are trying to influence DT and others who want to change churches by using scare tactics and guilt. It does not sit well with me at all.

DT...if you are not getting spiritually fed, find a place that will feed you. Trust in the LORD...He will guide your steps.
Love to you dear brother..I hope you are feeling well.
Love, Lisa



editing in for ex....yes, I do go to church. It happens to be a pretty large Southern Baptist church....but it took me a few times to find one that fed me spiritually.

why do you even rely on a preacher?

not sure if you're asking me or DT...but I go to church to be with other like minded Christians. To study the word, sing worship to the Lord and help people in my community. I don't look as my pastor as being closer in line to God..and neither does he. He preaches the word and helps feed my soul.

I went to church tonight and I definitely got the feeling that God wants me to stay, at least for now so that is what I shall do.


Regardless of how I think he's preaching his sermon I will readily admit he knows the Bible much better than I do. Do I follow him blindly? No of course not but I do trust him.

I have many questions for you in an attempt to help you figure out if you should stay or go.

1) When you joined your church, who was the Pastor? If this one was the Pastor, what has changed?
2) What is your spiritual nourishment in a typical week? Are you part of a Bible Study or Sunday School? Do you read the Bible daily? (We shouldn't count on only the Pastor for our Spiritual nourishment, but of course the word Pastor literally means "Shepherd" and he should be providing nourishment.)
3) What is your Pastor's style of preaching? Does he go book by book, line by line? Or does he address big subjects and offer scriptural references for his stance? (You might have a pastor that is interested in politics or covering political issues and applying the Bible rather than covering Biblical issues and applying them to the world we live.)
4) What is your family makeup? Do you have children? If so, what age group(s) and how are the children's programs? (You always have to think of the entire family unit when contemplating what is best.)

I also posted an entry on my blog that outlines helping a person find a church that my pastor put together.
The direct link is http://brightchristianfellowship.blogspot....-in-church.html

Hope that helps some. I pray that you will trust the Holy Spirit to lead you.

What I am saying Roxy is that most of us have been born into a well established denomination with congregations all over the world. So if we are baptists and get moved by the Navy to a different city or country then we go to the Baptist church in that country. You are seeing physical location and circumstances as the cause of fragmentation of the church. The real thing that fragments the church is not forced seperation by physical circumstances, but rather the deliberate choices of individuals and groups to seperate themselves from brethren to form new fellowships. Seeing that they cannot justify their seperation on the grounds of physical circumstances they come up with other damaging excuses for the separation such as "bad deeds of people", "problems with the music", "problems with the doctrine", "problems with the style of teaching", "apostasy of the administration" etc. etc. All the same excuses that have been used to seperate and divide people since the dawn of time. We even have protestants breaking into cultural groups so that the phillipinos have their church, racial groups where the blacks have their groups and whites theirs, demographic reasons where the elderly go to their "old church" and the young go to their "happening" mega church.
All these divisions are an abomination to the unity which God expects of Christiantity. We all should meet together as one body all who live within a close proximity. Instead we are all travelling like bees across town to massive churches with massive car parks or sometimes to small groups which have our particular flavour of doctrine in a school meeting room. The work of the Holy Spirit brings all Christians together under one doctrine with all economic, social, demographic, racial and cultural background united together as a family close by for help and support.

The work of the devil is to split people up, divide them into their demographic, doctrinal and cultural pigeon holes scatter them all over the town, city and country, splitting up brothers so that we no longer see them each week.

If all Christians were faithful and attended their local established denomination the church building would be full, the school assembly halls would be empty, the heart of the people would sing as they walked to church in the view of their neighbours. They would listen to an ordained preacher preach doctrines authorised by the church administrators.



The Holy Spirit ALWAYS leads us to go to church and stay at church. It NEVER leads us to leave the church. If you can find one passage of scripture which sanctions us to leave our church and go to another please let me know.

What happens when your Souther Baptist church no longer feeds you spiritually? Will you then pull up stakes and leave all of your brethren and find one which does? I hope not. Stay their for the rest of your life. Every church goes through trials when a beloved pastor dies or is moved on and it is hard to find a replacement, or the replacement is not much good etc. etc. Will you abandon the church then in its time of need.

Most protestants today will. Having no loyalty or faith they change their church like they change motor vehicles. This one is too old, This one has some clunking noises, This one is using up too much fuel, This one just isn't expressing me as where I am at for this stage of my life, This one is not speaking to my spirit the way the spirit in me says that it should so phhtt. Trade it in. Go somewhere else that can give me what I need. What my children need.

Ask not what your church can do for you, ask what you can do for your church?
Who said that? Some wise man although I have changed it somewhat.

This is an excellent attitude of humility. Not only do we trust our pastor's but we trust our Father in heaven who placed them over us for the purpose of nurturing us and teaching us in the faith. It does not hurt though to recognise faults in our pastors and denominations so that we can pray for a remedy. Not so that we can launch a rebel attack on them or leave and create our own fellowship or join another one.

So I will point out the background of why your pastor has this particular problem of concentrating on these issues to the neglect of others.

First of all a bit of a history lesson.
In the 1880's there was a period during the Modernist period the protestant church fell away into a frightful liberal theology which denied the miracles of the gospels and made extraordinary concessions to the secular norms of society in an attempt to woo the world into the church. This was called the downgrade controversy which Charles Spurgeon was caught up and resulted in him being ousted from the Baptist Union.

The evangelicals in a backlash to this, publically and vocally started the fundamentalist movement which is awash over our nation at this time. The fundamentalist movement features a very cut down gospel which emphasises the miracles of the Bible, abortion, evolution, sexual issues. What we might call "core truths" to the expense of solid teaching of the whole range of church doctrine many of which were deemed to be "non-core truths".

Unfortunately many churches are caught up in this movement which is often accompanied with militant civil actions such as demonstrations at abortion clinics, high powered political lobbying, heavy marketing practices, kingdom now theology.

We need to get back to the way the church was before the modernist movement where a strong doctrinal base for the church along with high moral ethics of its members. The Church of God does not seek to change the world through militant action but by the holy example of the righteous members of the church working quitely in their communities. This is how we become the salt of the earth.
What the world does IS NOT our affair. Our affair is what we as a church community do. As it happens rates of sexual immorality and abortion are virtually no different in the church than they are in the world. Which makes us as Christians vacuous windbags.

Let us leave the world to itself and judge ourselves as instructed in
1 Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth.

For a more thorough treatment of this subject http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...;p=120416&#

If in your research you come to a solid understanding of the harmful problems in modern Christian fundamentalism then perhaps you can quietly sit down with your pastor and explain where he may be inappropriately stressing some subjects to the neglect of others. Explain to him the phenomena of fundamentalism.

Here is a start in your research http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/fund.html

I would consider carefully before discussing this with your pastor because it is likely that the entire organisation rankles with fundamentalism. You will simply get yourself offside. So my advice is to pray and watch unto yourself and your family that you do not get too embroiled in the spirit of fundamentalism which may be at your church but attend to your own personal holiness and that of your own family.

Well DT if that is what you heard, that that is what you must do.

The problem with Ex's view is that he still views the church as denominations.

Ex said:



How can we meet as one body and at the same time stay where we are? My neighbor would have to leave the Baptist church to be able to fellowship with me.

So now he is saying that neither a large Baptist, Pentecostal, etc is correct to be at (so Ex is saying you must leave) neither is a small church with a small car park, correct, (so you must leave again)
So if you have been born in the LARGE church and now you have moved across town, you must leave, according to Ex. If you are NOT saying it, then how can we " all meet together as one body all who live within a close proximity" ?
Sorry Ex, its not an argument.

Plus its not Biblical. We have been through this before.. Denominations are not from God to start with. They were never meant to be and they are not in the Bible.

The only thing we find in the Bible is "The church.
By its very meaning (the called out ones) it shows us what the church is . People who come together who have been called out of the world.
The church has always been there. But not everybody in the buildings we call a church IS the church. We have the tares sitting in the pews and we have tares teaching in the pulpits.

Now listen carefully: Our responsibility before God is to know the Bible well enough to see if what is being preached, is in fact the gospel and not just "life lessons" (as in Dr Phill and Oprah)
May preach (who do not know the true gospel) today about HOW we should live. Do not do this, do not do that, dress like this, do not swear, respect your parents etc. (life lessons) but few will tell you HOW to overcome. If you are in fact a homosexual or about to abort a baby, or an alcoholic, HOW do you get out of it. As most of these people KNOW they have a problem, they just do not know HOW to get out. So most just keep on telling them that they are wrong and sinful .
People they are trapped and they need freedom , not condemnation. If your church cannot bring that freedom, (We are suppose to have the GOOD NEWS) then get out and look for a place that not only teaches the gospel, but move in the power of God. Setting the captives free and healing the sick.

Yea, we had a business meeting last night and there's a lot going on. We're a Baptist church, there's another Baptist church about 1/4 mile down the street and now, someone else wants to open ANOTHER Baptist church across the street. The church is pretty much in a rural area so this makes no sense. We'll have 3 Baptist churches within walking distance of each other.

But when I heard this I felt that I must stay and help my church. My church has been there over 100 years and the other church down the road is only 6 years old. Not to mention the rumors but I won't go into that since I don't like spreading rumors. "Just the facts ma'am". So right now we have to do what we can just to survive this latest situation.

AMEN.

Luke 4-THE RED LETTERING

4. And Jesus answered him saying, It is written, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.




8. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall thou serve.




12. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.




18. The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he hath annointed me to preach, the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.



19. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.



20. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the MINISTER, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on HIM.




21. And he began to say unto them. THIS DAY IS THE SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS.




If what is preached is taking your focuss off Christ and his character, then I pray that the elders of the Church come to the congregations rescue and realize that it will be turning people away in condemnation.

Jesus in this lesson is rebuking the Pharasees and the spirit of the law, and not the Spirit of Grace that our Lord provides through his spirit.

This is the DAY, THIS is the HOUR, that the LORD hath made. Be blessed, to be a blessing. God's blessings to all.

unfortunately this is also ALL that the media talks about when they mention the Bible! They leave the other sins. I just wonder why.

You can't say any thing negative any more about homosexuals and abortion and both have agendas and are defended by the ACLU...




But you are right in that he should also mention the other sins that are mentioned in that same verse (don't you know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God...)

Yes, there are other issues... But remember that God placed your pastor for a reason!

The LOST have never been saved by the LAW...only by the BLOOD of the CROSS of our RISEN LORD JESUS CHRIST.

Hungry for the LORD?

Luke 6:3-

And Jesus answering them said, HAVE YE NOT Read so much as this, what David did, when himself WAS AN HUNGERED, and they which were with him:??????????????????????????

4. How he went into the house of God, and did take and eat the shewbread, and GAVE ALSO TO THEM< that were with him, which it is NOT LAWFUL to eat but for the Priests alone?

t. And he said unto them, That the Son of man is LORD also of the sabbath.

WITHERED HAND?

9. Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you ONE THING, IS it lawful on the sabbath days to DO GOOD, or to do EVIL? to SAVE LIFE, or to DESTROY IT?


THEN HE TELLS US ALL, STRETCH FORTH THY HAND...and his HAND WAS RESTORED.

12. And it came to pass in those days, that he went out into a mountain to PRAY, and continued all NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD.

LORD hears our Prayer. Amen

First of all I NEVER said the Holy Spirit leads you to leave your church. My point is there is No man on earth who is a better teacher than the Holy Spirit..please don't twist my words, that's not nice. I trust the Holy Spirit period. I don't think people should leave their churches on a whim skipping from one to the next to satisfy their worldy needs...even though that is the picture you're trying to paint from my words. You're speaking of people as if they have no personal relationship with Christ. Sure, people like that will skip around. Life is not so black & white...here's a little view into my life...

I was born into the Greek Orthodox church. They taught in Greek...I don't speak Greek... My Mom & Dad did. I suppose you will say I should have learned...but it wasn't easy and I never grasped it. We stayed for many many years. I did not learn much to say in the least. Had it not been for my Mother teaching me the bible, I wouldn't have learned a thing. But you think I would have been better off to stay there. I used to go to a Catholic church with my girlfriend when I was a preteen because I craved to learn the Bible. I thought, since they spoke English there, I would go...They eventually found out I was Greek and told me only Catholics could attend there. I had to convert or leave. WOW! I didn't know the Lord was Catholic. MOM...does that mean I'm going to hell like they told me? Now granted...that's a bad experience...but it was because a MAN was giving me these rules. I doubt very much Jesus would have done that. Since there were no other Greek Orth churches in our area..what was I to do? Stay there? I talked my parents into taking me to another church...I CRAVED the word! Are my parents bad parents for taking me to a new church? Eventually we moved out of state...we moved to Tarpon Springs, Fl ...huge Greek community..it's like living in Greece. Well, we joined the Greek church. They preached in both Greek and English...GREAT, right? Nope..the english service was for the tourists who came by to see the absolutely beautiful cathedral and it was spectacular! But, because I was Greek and did not speak Greek I was ridiculed horribly and my parents were pretty much ignored and gossiped about the whole time we were there...not an edifying place at all. But we should have stayed, right? At that point in my life...teenager now, I was beginning to have serious doubts about what 'religion' meant to me. I stopped going to church and dove into the Bible...I did eventually find a church that stuck to the word, but it took a while. I know the Lord does not want any of this mess that I encountered trying to feed myself the word. I am exactly where He wants me...and I was then too...There were lessons every step of the way. My faith in the LORD is absolutely unshakable because of the path He lead me on...He is my rock.

I know you will come up with a convincing argument to everything I've said...it's ok. I usually don't even get into debates like this, but I couldn't keep quiet this time. I find it disturbing that you would try to have people carry such a heavy burden by trying to make people feel guilty and twisting words. You need to get the whole picture before you come down with judgement and advice.

Don't twist my words C. I said that nobody should leave their church unless it is not actually a church as in a community "church", a bible club, small group in a loungeroom etc. We should all stay in our denominations where we were born and try to stay together. My words you quoted can in no way be interpreted as instructing people to leave their church. They were reflecting on a simpler age when there were only a few denominations and everybody could go to church in their denomination close to home. Quite frankly, despite our differences I am hurt that you would twist my words like this with such little regard for me.


Denominations are not from God. How true. This has been my argument from the start. Jesus built one church with a defined heirarchy of clergy and laity. It is rebellious men breaking away because of all their whinges and complaints like the Israelites in the wilderness which have caused the one denomination to break into two and so on until today we have tens of thousands of denominations.

Nor did God intend some invisible organic church with people meeting in loosely held groups with undefined doctrines coming and going as the wind takes them. We may have tares sitting in the churches, but their are tares sitting in lounge room small groups too. Just as there are some people moving with power of God overcoming their sins in the church. There are also some people moving with power of God overcoming their sins in their lounge rooms with their friends. That is not the issue. The issue is whether or not we should be going to church with an anointed preacher, to receive properly sanctified sacraments, to fellowship with Christians of all ages and socio-economic backgrounds, to submit ourselves to the authority of the preacher and the catechism or statement of beliefs of the church.

I say we should be going to church. Whereas you are excusing yourself because you do not. Not only that, to justify yourself you are prepared to forcefully present your case to others, giving them fuel to their temptations to leave the church also.


I was not twisting your words. You said
"if you are not getting spiritually fed, find a place that will feed you. Trust in the LORD...He will guide your steps."

This implies that you believe that if anybody has some idea that they are not being fed and decide to find a new church that the Lord will lead them to a new church. I deny that the Lord leads us to leave our church or supports us in any decision to do so.

With regards to all your reasons for leaving this church and going to that church. Believe me I have heard them all. There are no end of "valid" excuses to leave the church. Their are more "valid" reasons for leaving church than there are for not doing your homework. If everybody left their church for every "valid" reason then there would be no churches at all. (Well kind of like things are going now).

In the early church they did not have the luxury of leaving their church and going down the road to another one more suited to their socio-economic circumstance and personal tastes and ethos. They made do with what they got. People from all over the known world, even Jews and Gentiles, can you imagine, meeting together in unity. Can you imagine Jews and Gentiles meeting together in the same Christian church today? No they would break off into a seperate denomination called the Jewish Church of God and the Gentile Church of God. Which would of course be an abomination. So why then is it alright for the young singles to break off and have a Saturday evening church service so they can go off afterwards and hit the clubs, whereas the elderly are left in their musty old churches with sad hearts because their are no young faces. Isn't that just as vile an abomination? So is every excuse offered to justify breaking off and going to a different church. (I am not talking about moving locations for work. I'm talking about schism in the body of Christ, abandoning one fellowship to take up with another. This is nothing short of betrayal and it is any wonder that Jesus said. Where shall I find faith in the world)

We are so used to betrayal in todays Christian church that we no longer see it for what it is. It just seems normal to us. But it is not. It is an abomination. 30,000 protestant churches and umpteen million house groups teaching who knows what is not what Jesus intended. Nor is taking a group and leaving to start the the million and oneth house group what Jesus intended.

Excubitor said:


Isnt that exactly what you are doing?

DT,
Remember Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him (God), for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Your first love is (and certainly should be) Christ. Trust Him.
Myself and many others can certainly understand why you would seriously consider coming out of a church
at this time in history, the apostate condition of the greater majority of "church fellowships" is just terrible.
There is incredibly bad and unsound doctine everywhere and there are TOO many "pastors" that are not feeding the sheep that God has entrusted to their care.

Ezekiel 34:10
Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.”

It is quite possible that the voice you are hearing is the Holy Spirit telling you to come out and be seperate.
And it is no wonder, the majority of the "shepherds" in the world are of the world and they look
so much like wheat that it is difficult many times to tell them apart.

Just keep your focus on Jesus and trust in Him, We all know that He will never lead one of His sheep astray.

In Christ,
Chris

There is no problem in forcefully presenting your case. The problem is the motive for doing so. In C's case he feels a certain amount of guilt and shame which he is not prepared to admit to for the fact that he abandoned the people of the Dutch Reformed Church and struck out own his own with his merry little band of men. Rather than confronting this guilt and shame he instead papers over it with over vigorous self-justifications for why he has done it. Being right in his own eyes he therefore seeks to influence others to follow his example.

On the other hand my motives are entirely pure. I teach forcefully that we must not leave our churches. I don't give vague this's and that's with grey area's and maybe if this happened then maybe you could. I just direct all to follow the scriptures stay unified. I don't have any little tinge of guilt which needs to be papered over. I have not left any church which action needs to be justified. Go through the Our Missing Doctrine thread and you will see the extensive use of scripture and even the injunctions of Jesus pleading and praying that we may be "one" and not scattered, and that we avoid all schism. Schism and rebellion are great evils akin to witchcraft. We all need to guard against it with all our heart and soul.


As I pointed out in the Our Missing Doctrine thread there are apostate churches described in the first few chapters of Revelation and not once did Jesus advise Christians to leave and run. He urged to stand fast, endure, overcome until the end. Apostasy has ever been in the church to one degree or another for God's divine purpose. The only thing allowing the acceleration of apostasy in this age is the constant schism and breakdown of the authority of the clergy in the protestant church. Imagine being a pastor today. On the one hand the pastor knows he must feed the sheep with solid meat, sound doctrine. But he knows that they cannot endure it. Their ears itch for entertainment. They want milk and soda pops not the meat of the word. The pastor knows that if he gave them meat they would vomit it up and leave the church with hysteria and railing. They would pick out some misspoken word in a sermon and turn the pastor to make him look like a raging heretic and then a club of elders would get together and form a coup and the pastor would be thrown out. Its when we see this kind of thing going on that we understand why the ancients had a liturgy and dry as it may be at times at least the people heard most of the Bible read in the year and heard most of the doctrines of the church covered. But how we scoff at those people today even as we gripe and complain that our own pastors are not feeding us meat.


No, No, No. Have you heard nothing I have said? The Holy Spirit DOES NOT tell us to come out of our churches. Does the Holy Spirit tell us to divorce our wives because there is a holier woman over there that you should marry? No of course not.

Now it is true that there are brutish pastors who tear at the sheep. However sheep are supposed to be suffering servants. We are put here to suffer sacrifice and trial for the sake of Jesus. THE SCRIPTURE YOU QUOTED CONDEMNS brutish pastors. It DOES NOT INSTRUCT SHEEP to leave the church. Even an abused sheep is better off in the fold than being ravaged by wolves outside the fold. It is possible that a pastor or a church could be so abusive as to drive out a true sheep from the congregation. Even though the sheep has never rebelled. I know that this type of thing is going on increasingly in the emerging church where change agents are being brought in to change the church and to identify and drive out "resistors" to change. Always be ready for this. As much as possible keep out of these peoples way. If their attentions do turn to you and you do get driven out of your church then I suggest you go to a solid denomination of the church with an established heirarchy of authority. These kind of abusive situations are usually found in mega-church, community church and independant non-denominational type churches which are trying to turn themselves into the next saddleback or hillsong. They have business like marketing plans and purpose driven software to "grow" the church numerically and financially. I repeat THESE ARE NOT CHURCHES. Nor are garage groups, house groups, school hall groups or any other group that is non-denominational.

Yep, I know: They got burnt at the stake if they tried

There is no problem in forcefully presenting your case. The problem is the motive for doing so. In C's case he feels a certain amount of guilt and shame which he is not prepared to admit to for the fact that he abandoned the people of the Dutch Reformed Church and struck out own his own with his merry little band of men. Rather than confronting this guilt and shame he instead papers over it with over vigorous self-justifications for why he has done it. Being right in his own eyes he therefore seeks to influence others to follow his example.

You can rest assure that I have no guilt (and I did not come out of a Dutch Reformed, although they are also worth coming out of, as they are ruled by our local "Brotherhood" (Illuminati sub-group and use to be the government tool in the apartheid era, they chased black people out of their "churches"......)My own religious group , where I was born into also did not allow black people into Christianity. they were called: "The water-carriers" (slaves) that God cursed to work for the white man. Our ancestors were Germanic and we had sentiments with Germany in second Word War, so this group (which you want me to return to) was racist in their core. Today they HAVE to allow black people into their religious organisation,(by law) , but no black person attend.Much to their relief. IN South Africa we are called either Black or White...we do not have a PC term like "African American" because we are in Africa) One of the pastors of this group, is in jail for diamond smuggling. Do you think we should wait for him to come out and then get him back to preach? When I was still forced to go there by my parents and attend , both the "pastors" were smokers. Go figure. When one of their minister were baptised in the Holy Spirit, he got thrown out of the "church" and you want me to stay.



On the other hand my motives are entirely pure. I teach forcefully that we must not leave our churches. I don't give vague this's and that's with grey area's and maybe if this happened then maybe you could. I just direct all to follow the scriptures stay unified. I don't have any little tinge of guilt which needs to be papered over. I have not left any church which action needs to be justified. Go through the Our Missing Doctrine thread and you will see the extensive use of scripture and even the injunctions of Jesus pleading and praying that we may be "one" and not scattered, and that we avoid all schism. Schism and rebellion are great evils akin to witchcraft. We all need to guard against it with all our heart and soul.


Excuse me for not being with you on this: But isn't "schism"= denominations ??? Yet you advocate "schism" ?

I say walk out of the denominations. Its not impossible , it is already happening. Word wide Christians are gathering OUTSIDE denominationalism : Just Christians getting together OUTSIDE the "schisms" not creating another "NAME" another "Church" but just being the church.

You do not even have to walk out of you denomination , if they preach the full gospel....and I am not talking about the Full Gospel Denomination here.......If your fellowship preached overcoming sin, Christ in you the hope of glory, Jesus coming to manifest in His body of believers, healing the sick, driving our demons, preaching the WORD as the only truth. If your elders are men of victory, overcoming sin and walking on holiness, worthy men that serve God in word and deed, whos household reflect this.If your pastor is the servant and not the ruler. Then stay and praise the Lord for providing you with such a group. And believe me they ARE out there. Just pray and ask.
If not, then find like-minded people, who live lives that reflect the Word. Their walk and talk must show that they love the Word .You will find them by their fruits. They will reflect Christ and not doctrine




Oh get real.

Ex...I knew getting into this conversation would be a mistake. You did not address one thing I said..you just generalize. I'll pray for you.

Religious Resistance to Truth

Amos Scaggs - 9/11/07 (Vision)
(



I had a large cup of brand-name coffee in a to-go cup. There were people, friends and family around that also had another brand-name coffee in to-go cups but it was not the same coffee that I had.



All cups had the brand name advertised on the outer, exposed side of the cups. They wanted my coffee because it had a better taste. I offered them my coffee but they all said the only way they could drink it was if I poured it in their cups so as not to upset the people who sponsored their brand. (If it's not labeled and approved by their religion they can't accept it. The danger to them is that they will not be judged by their religion but the Word. {Jn.12:48} He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.)


I told them I could not put my brand of coffee in their brand of cup. They could not accept that offer. They were afraid of being fired if caught with my brand of coffee. {Lk.5:37} And no man putteth new wine into old wine-skins; else the new wine will burst the skins, and itself will be spilled, and the skins will perish.

There are church people in denominational churches that want the real gospel but are afraid of being exposed if caught listening to it. There are some that know they are listening to a false message but will not move because it is too conformable where they are. {Jn.12:42} Nevertheless even of the rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [it], lest they should be put out of the synagogue: {43} for they loved the glory [that is] of men more than the glory [that is] of God.

LINK

Ex. said:


No, what causes this apostacy is found here in 2 Thes. 2:3-15

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away (apostacy) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition (destruction),
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God,
(1 Cor 3:17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are) showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work;
(1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, (this lie is that there is another gospel, it is a lie that tells us that we must go to a certain church or belong to a certain fellowship, or be in a denomination or recieve "sacraments", or being good, or refrain from marriage or from eating meat, or obedience to some doctrine of men wether they are from Rome or if it is an angel from above that preaches another gospel and not the gospel that is just believing by faith in Christ alone and His atoning blood that He gave on calvary that saves us)
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Going to a "church" has never and will never save anyone. It is Christ alone, the gospel that has been given to us by word or epistle.

In Christ,
Chris

100 % agreement form me. But now Ex is going to see "by word" and jump on you because you do not believe the "words" of the traditions of the group that calls themselves "church" . So we have to be clear and say: The "by words" means that Paul sometimes spoke to the believers of the new church. So only the words of those who "have seen the Lord" and wrote the Bible, only THOSE WORDS are the words to be trusted. And yes, I know, how do I know what those words are. They eventually wrote them down, because God would not have forgotten to do it, plus God is clever enough NOT to trust us with oral traditions. He wrote it down.

Then they sent it around, like we would forward an e-mail today to the other believers.

1Th 5:27 I adjure you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the brethren.

Col 4:16 And when this epistle hath been read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye also read the epistle from Laodicea.

So they were sending the letters to each other. Everybody had the Bible, as the Apostles were writing it. They were copying and sending.

No impostor was must be allowed to change anything. So Paul made sure they knew his handwriting, so that they would KNOW it is from him and not some other impersonator. The Word was given to him and he gave it word perfect to the church.2Th 3:17 The salutation of me Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write.

Timothy carried the instructions from Paul to them and was instructed to protect that which were entrusted to him.
The letter starts:1Ti 1:3 As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine,
and ends:1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called;
1Ti 6:21 which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you.

So in the words of Paul : o Brothers and sisters,guard that which is committed unto thee[/b], turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called;
1Ti 6:21 which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you

in other words; Leave them.

The great falling away (apostasy) is happening before our eyes. You are all advocating or at least justifying people leaving their church and committing apostasy. Leaving church is a betryal. It is like a divorce, saying to our family that I no longer want to fellowship with you. I want to go and fellowship with this other crowd over here.

So that is what falling away is. Defection from the Church and its teachings and beliefs. Of course those who defect say that the church defected against the teachings of Jesus and I am simply restoring the Christian faith of the first century. Of course every defector said that as he rebelled and left the church. Some also say that they rebel against "the church" but have not forsaken the doctrines of the church.

If the falling away is not the defection from the visible church then what is it? You will all give vague ideas about it being an abandonment of various core truths of the faith. But each man will have his own ideas about what that is. But Paul is saying that the falling away is something easy to see and identify. So much so that we can know assuredly that the day of the Lord is coming. What can be more visible and obvious than people leaving the church. Where once they occupied a seat or a pew it is now empty. You can't have a visible falling away from something invisible. Christians falling away from core truths while they sit in their lounge room small groups IS NOT VISIBLE and recognisable.

It really is appalling the things I am reading here from you people. We are baptised into the church. The church is the body of Christ. We should LOVE the church. But no people here hate it and advocate defection from it. They call it "the church" in quotation marks. They then say that the church exists in scattered individuals in various groups. This extreme interpretation of the invisible church is a thieving work of the devil with which he plunders the true church, the vis ible body of the saints which has a catechism or confession statement, a creed, a Bible, an archBishop, pastors who can administrate a sanctified sacrament, seminaries to train up new pastors.

I repeat the great falling away IS the defection from the visible Church which is happening at an accelerated rate today.
The enemy knows that Christians scattered all over the earth in various groups will be easy prey for the antichrist. As a united body Christian's are a powerful force in the world especially when their leader has great authority. But scattered we will fall to the antichrist like houses of cards at a puff of breeze.

I urge everybody to not leave the visible church. Stay in it.
For those who insist upon leaving the visible church and who encourage others to do so are in terrible peril for their souls.


I'm sorry I thought I did address the things you said. Could you please tell me what I failed to address and I will try to cover it more clearly.

I feel like you took my questions and rolled over them without actually addressing them. I really have no energy to go back and forth with you on this. It actually pains me to think that you actually would rather me learn nothing in a church because I was born and raised there. It makes no sense to me. I craved the word..the Lord put that in me. But I should have suffered through..and actually we did until we moved. But then you would have me, an impressionable teenaged girl, suffer through hateful people with no interest in accepting us. I'll suffer for Jesus...but not for those people. Only by the grace of God was I able to keep my faith through all of this mess! And I believe without a doubt that I lived through this for a reason..to show me that the church is not a building, but the body of believers in Christ.

Hi Roxy, Yes I did read all your posts and in my response I lumped all of your comments and arguments into the big bundle called "excuses". I then addressed the point that "excuses" are not an adequate reason to leave the church.

In the end what you want from me is a cosy feeling of endorsement to coddle you into feeling OK about what you have done. You are the one who has cut off your greek orthodox heritage and has placed pressure upon your parents to leave their church. Why? Because you did not speak the language and did not learn anything. The church ran for a thousand years in Latin while the common people spoke English so this is not a new phenomen never faced before by Christians. In those days the monks and pastors taught through the gestures in the mass, the statues and pictures of the biblical events, by pantomines, by instruction by the pastors in their own languages at times other than the mass. In your church I am sure all these avenues were open to you to learn. There is also a huge amount of Greek Orthodox information available in English. So if you did not learn anything there it was probably because you were too young and lazy and probably would not have learned anything much wherever you were.

People learn a new language to emigrate to another country or so that they can communicate with a friend in their native tongue or so that they can enjoy their experience travelling to a new country. But deary me no. It would be a shocking imposition to imagine that people might learn a new language in order to learn the ancient religion. So whereas you had an opportunity to learn the language of your people you squandered it through laziness and lack of endeavour. You could have learnt Greek and used it to travel back to your parents homeland and get to know your parents better who probably speak their native tongue better than English.

Also the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox is incredibly rich. An enquiring and diligent mind could be occupied for a lifetime in its subtleties. Its a bit like cricket. To someone who does not know the game it is boring. But to someone who has watched a large number of games and knows all the players, their strengths and weaknesses, the subleties of the game with various strategies and the wit and battle between batter and bowler it is immensely interesting and they can sit through an entire 4 or even 5 days of cricket entirely enthralled.

The Tridentine mass of the Catholics is like this. Every word spoken and each of the genuflections and various movements to and fro from the altar have immense meaning. To learn the history and the depths of meaning of each part of the mass is to connect yourself with ancient apostles and disciples and to magnify your soul. Most people do not get it. They just drone their way through it. They don't want the intricacies of a cricket test match. They want the instant froth and bubble of a 20-20 match (which is over in 2 hours).

Another analogy is with Opera. Millions of people worldwide go to the Opera to listen to a story played out in song and action and they know not a word. But if someone suggested that we no longer played Verdi's Aida because it was in Italian there would be an outrage. And can you imagine going to hear Carmen sung in English. But millions flock to hear Opera in French Italian and German. Also in ballet a story is played out in motion and action and music with no words spoken at all. In many ways the depth of the story is enhanced by the lack of words where the entire story plumbs the depths of the emotions and the heart of a man and speaks to a deeper level of the man's soul than the mere words themselves.

You don't know it now, but this is what you have done. Thrown away your heritage like Esau did and grabbed hold of the hoo haa of Southern Baptists. You will roo the day. Your decision will have long reaching and haunting effects long into your life. The doubt and hesitation and disquiet which you have demonstrated in this thread will remain with you for many years.

Such is the way with all those who divorce and disown their family (the church). The guilt, sadness, disquiet, uncertainty, self-justification, excuses, recriminations, angry oppositions against those who disagree with their decision never really leave. They are covered over with excuses but the wounds themselves simply deepen as time goes by. The horrors of the old church magnify in their mind and they become blind to the horrors developing in their new splinter group.

And now at Southern Baptist you are in an awkward situation. As you get older your soul will continue to draw you back to your roots of the Greek Orthodox but by then you may well be married into Southern Baptist and may have children there. It will be harder and harder to return and you will feel torn in two.

I believe that you have made an appalling mistake in your life. But then now that you are in Southern Baptist how should I advise you. Leave another church? You left several others already for a variety of excuses. I can't advise you anymore. I'm certainly not going to tell you to leave another church or justify you for having left any of the previous ones. You have got yourself into this mess. You'll have to sort it out for yourself.

But don't for one second of one minute suggest that it is the Spirit of the Lord that has led you on this merry dance. It is not. The Holy Spirit NEVER leads us to leave our church. It is always urging us to stand firm and endure and overcome those difficulties which we encounter at church. I keep pointing back to the churches in Revelation. Many of them beset with atrocious heresies and problems. Never ONCE did Jesus say to leave. He ALWAYS said to stand firm, endure and overcome. Never once did he come up with an "excuse" to leave.

Sorry Ex but that is not apostasy. The Bible does not teach that. The reason you think that is because you see the building as a church. You miss the fact that if you just look a bit wider,so see the real church everywhere and NOT at one place. It is actually ONE body. It never is has been divided , even when men form their schisms. The real body has aways been together. Its not found in one denomination.You are not called to loyalty towards a group or schism. You are called to loyalty towards Christ. The body of Christ is made up of believers. Made up of people who have Christ in them. Is made up of holy people. People who stand on the Bible as the only truth.Who have been crucified with Christ, who no longer live, but Christ now lives in them. People who stand on the promises and people who are allowing God to bring them into that reality, that the arm of the flesh is wrong and only trusting in God is right. People of faith everywhere.

So in order to "fall away" into apostasy you have to do more than leave a group of sleeping people and do more than leaving and coming out of dead religion.THAT would in fact HELP you from not falling away. Joining the sleeping masses in blissful peace is part of falling away.

You must first: join the world in you attitude, depend on the arm of the flesh all the time, keep your flesh alive through excuses and not die to self. You have to NOT take up your cross and follow Jesus to your own "self-life" death. You have to close your heart to giving your brothers in need and store up your treasures for your own gain. And here is the biggy: In order to fall away, you must believe that Jesus will not manifest in your flesh, but that He is only coming on the clouds to fetch you.
That is the great delusion that God said He will send in the end of this age.Its already here.

I will give you one (out of many) symptom of sleeping and being deluded and NOT knowing your Bible. In other words, if you believe the following, you have not made an effort by yourself, you have only believed what you were told by men .
Anybody who says: "I am only a sinner saved by grace" and not say " I am a saint, that use to be a sinner, and now I am saved by grace" Such is deluded and does not agree with the Bible.Scary thing is , you here it all the time and people think it sounds humble. It denies the truth of the Word and will cause you NOT to overcome and then what? Of we do not believe "It is finished" then what? Yes: we go back to the arm of the flesh and add out own works, our own little Ismael, and reject the Isaac.
So if you think that staying in a group, even if they are sinful, wrong, preaching their own gospel , rejecting the real Jesus and preaching another, then YOU are adding your own works to your salvation.

C

Wow Ex...what a way to start my day...Thank you for your well thought out response. You're very good at what you do. I thank the Lord my relationship with Him is solid. You're right, you can't advise me here...life is not so black and white...

So in your view I should not have left the church...ok let's go this way...so I left, now I'm floundering, yet there is no hope for me as you say because you have no advice to help me. That sure doesn't sound like something Jesus would say...BECAUSE He would never condemn me for that! I feel so very sorry for baby Christians who have read your comment...you could choke the very faith right out of them if they were babies! C'mon Ex...you have to see that! I'm not asking to be coddled...I'm a grown woman in Christ. Because I took the initiative to learn about Him instead of learning Greek. Yes, I guess a being the 6 year old lazy child that I was... I should have found other resources to learn the language in stead of search for His word. Wow...I didn't know Jesus would rather me do that. You presume to know everything about my life in the little snippet I gave you and pass judgement on me! I didn't even know I could go to another church until I was a young teen! But I did crave the Word...Jesus will surely punish me for that.

No I have not thrown away my heritage. I just don't attend their church any longer...I did for many many years...all of my childhood until I was almost out of high school. And did not learn much about Jesus ...but I did gain a wealth of knowledge about the masses & culture. I lived it. My mother taught me about Jesus. My family is a very large and strong Greek family..please don't assume things about me that you have no idea about. I would have loved to attend the Greek church in Florida....but they would not have us. I guess Jesus would have turned us away too? The doubt, hesitation and disquiet I have demonstrated is due to the unbelief that you would try to saddle people with such guilt and condemnation...I can assure you, I do not feel guilty for leaving the Greek church. Do you really believe the Lord will send me to hell for changing churches? That's not the Lord I know.

And your dig to the hoo haa baptist church I go to now.. I don't understand that. I suppose baptist people are bad in your eyes too. I found a home there...with good fellowship with loving Christians. My pastor sticks to the Bible...but he's not perfect..he is human.

One more thing....I did not say the Holy Spirit led me to leave the Greek Church! But He did show me lessons in what I did...you know, in retrospect maybe He did...He is sovereign, is he not? Maybe it was a lifelong journey to pull me away from organized religion. Thank you Ex for helping me sort this out.

Ex...I'm not trying to be mean to you...I do know you are attempting to help me and I do appreciate that.
Even though we do not agree about the church I know we both love Jesus. I'll keep you in my prayers as I hope you will keep me too.

Roxygal I agree with C, you have the Word in you so be assured that Christ abides in you. That means that your spiritual body is a building block of the true church. We as humans get hung up on "church" as a physical building or try and label it as a Baptist,Methodist,etc,etc. Paul originally called the church as"those people of the way". You know that the Holy Spirit will guide you and do not be decieved by mans religion.God Bless you. offgrid.