There is no doubt that Revelation 11:3 is mentioning two individuals that, in the beginning, are true witnessesw of God, and, later on, become true prophets of God. No group of God's people are first witnesses and then prophets, and these two individuals are the horns of the Lamb by which He will fight against the fruits of the great falling-away in Christendom. According to Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (New International Version) it is said about the bodily dead that they will NEVER AGAIN have part in anything that happen under the sun, so be convinced that the two witnesses of Rev 11:3 are two individuals.

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
NEVER AGAIN will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Concerning the place where the two witnesses will be you can read in Zech 6:8, and also foretold in Psalm 48:2:

2 It is beautiful in its loftiness,
the joy of the whole earth.
Like the utmost heights of Zaphon (the north) is Mount Zion,
the city of the Great King (on the northern side).

This prophecy in Psalm 48 is in complete accordance with what Zechariah foretells.

Concerning the time at which the two witnesses will come we can read in Dan Daniel 8:13-14 (New International Version):

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"

14 He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

This same event is also foretold in Dan 12:5-9:

5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?"

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. [b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?"

9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

There are given two seemingly different answers to the same question, namely "2300 evenings and mornings" and "a time, times and half a time", and the man who answered, clothed in linen, is the man child of Rev 12:5. The first answer given is as seen from the vantage point of the witness who was asking, and the second answer as seen from the vantage point of the man child. There was given no specific time from which to calculate the 1150 years (2300 evenings and mornings) of Dan 8:14, no so-called terminus a quo, but the witness understands the answer since he is indeed one of the two witnesses. That witness knows from what the man child teaches that these given numbers are somehow belonging to the same biblical calculation as the numbers 1290 and 1335 in Dan 12:11-12 and 666 in Rev 13:18. And the witness knows that since the number 666 is also the number of a man, it must be the year 666, which is reckoned from the birth of Jesus as man. From that pivotal year are calculated the 1335 years of Dan 12:12, pointing to the year 2001 and foretelling that ACHARITH (the end) is come.

From the year 666 a.Chr. are calculated the "42 months" of the beast (Rev 13:5), for by then, by the onslaught of Islam, were silenced the eastern and African Christian churches that had opposed the claim of supremacy by the pope. The beast with the seven heads and the ten horns had started to rule the world. The secret about these things will soon be revealed to the whole world for a warning and to admonish mankind back to the folds of true Christendom and, at the same time, to refute the lies of falsehood that have for such a long time held people in spiritual captivity.

So, dear people, don't wonder about the two witnesses, who they are, but pay heed to what Scripture itself reveals as to place and time. I tell you, the time of the sixth trumpet is come and its terrible contents will be poured on the beast for its eternal destruction.

Greetings to whoever loves the coming of our Lord!
PehJeshua

Aren't the 2300 days and evenings, real days and real evenings....not yrs for example, they prophesy two events re: the abomination of desolation....the first time with Antiochus Epiphane when he foreshadowed the abomination of desolation before the Maccabean revolt...this is the amount of time his self exhaltation holds...therefore we have 6.38 yrs of abomination.

Since the Lord does not sanction this third temple, the orthodox jews themselves will start the abomination of desolation and then the man of sin, once he is revealed, who really doesn't care if they start the sacrifices again anyway cause it will only further trample on the blood of Jesus, stops the daily oblation so that he can exhalt himself as god in the holy place...this would be mid trib....from thereon, we have the death of the two witness for their 42 months or 1260 days will have expired..their commision will be over...

The Tent of David however is sanctionned...this is where people go astray in suppositions that Solomans' temple is David's Tent...but the Tent is just a temporary dwelling and since the two witnesses will be considered bloody men, cause they will have to kill by dint of self defense, they would not be able to sanction a real temple which will of course be built by the Lord Himself in the Millenium...with dimensions far exceeding any previous temple of approximately 1 mile by 1 mile.
then it will be 1290 days until Jesus returns, and the war should be wrapped up by 1335 days which I assume includes the disposition of all of the dead on earth which very well may take the majority of the time in and of itself.

Dear Patmos,

I will now answer your questions on what I wrote about the two witnesses of God.

You wrote:
"Aren't the 2300 days and evenings, real days and real evenings....not yrs for example, they prophesy two events re: the abomination of desolation....the first time with Antiochus Epiphane when he foreshadowed the abomination of desolation before the Maccabean revolt...this is the amount of time his self exhaltation holds...therefore we have 6.38 yrs of abomination."

My answer:
There is no biblical basis for believing that the prophecy in Dan 8, which foretells the coming of a goat, is describing Antiochus IV Epiphanes, as many preachers and teachers are mistaken to belief. The goat is the kingdom of Greece and the big horn is Alexander the Great. When Alexander died his kingdom was divided between his generals, and Dan 8:8 tells us that these four divisions of his empire came up towards the four winds (directions) of the heaven), and from one of them, namely directions (not divisions) there came a LITTLE HORN that grew exceedingly great toward south and east and the holy land. This has got nothing to do with Antiochus, for the ram with the two horns (Dan 8:3) which symbolized the second empire after the Babylonian, was the Persian empire, while the goat that subdued the Persian empire symbolized the Greek. In Dan. 7:5 a bear symbolizes the Persian empire, while a leopard symbolizes the Greek empire. So, both the goat and the leopard symbolized the Greek empire, and Scripture tells us that after that third empire there should come an even stronger empire. That empire was the Roman empire, within which came up the little horn. Remember that this horn should come up AMONG THE TEN HORNS and also AFTER THE TEN HORNS. The Romans first came to Macedonia, and later on to Egypt and Syria, thus growing towards the east and south, and the holy land. The little horn would be the one by which the fourth empire should be different from the first three ones, because he would become both a political and a religious leader of his kingdom. The Holy Bible doesnt mention 6.38 yrs, so that is just a human figment without sound basis in Scripture. The "week" mentioned in Dan. 9:27 belongs to the 70 weeks of Israel (Dan. 9:24), and that week ended with the 70th week in the middle of which Jesus was crucified.


You wrote:
"Since the Lord does not sanction this third temple, the orthodox jews themselves will start the abomination of desolation and then the man of sin, once he is revealed, who really doesn't care if they start the sacrifices again anyway cause it will only further trample on the blood of Jesus, stops the daily oblation so that he can exhalt himself as god in the holy place...this would be mid trib....from thereon, we have the death of the two witness for their 42 months or 1260 days will have expired..their commision will be over..."

My answer:
You are totally lost here. There will be no third temple, and the abomination of desolation has been long since, namely when the Christian church was divided in different denominations and churches, the church thus falling away from the apostolic teachings. We are now living in the time of the 6th trumpet, and the time of the beast started in the time of the 3rd trumpet, when the papacy started to rule without further opposition to the papal claim from the eastern churches. Islam had silenced them about the year 666 CE.


You wrote:
"The Tent of David however is sanctionned...this is where people go astray in suppositions that Solomans' temple is David's Tent...but the Tent is just a temporary dwelling and since the two witnesses will be considered bloody men, cause they will have to kill by dint of self defense, they would not be able to sanction a real temple which will of course be built by the Lord Himself in the Millenium...with dimensions far exceeding any previous temple of approximately 1 mile by 1 mile.
then it will be 1290 days until Jesus returns, and the war should be wrapped up by 1335 days which I assume includes the disposition of all of the dead on earth which very well may take the majority of the time in and of itself."

My answer:
Who taught you all these fallacies? The two witnesses will not kill any person physically or bodily, for what comes out of their mouth is the convincing true power of the Word, not literal fire. And who taught you that Jesus will return in person BEFORE the so-called MILLENNIUM has been on this earth? I tell you, that when you read Isa 65:17-25 you will see that even on the NEW EARTH people will build houses, raise children and die, and this cannot happen if NEW EARTH and NEW HEAVEN meant eternity. Jesus himself has said that after the bodily resurrection (which happens on the VERY LAST DAY) there will not be taken a wife or give a wife, for the spiritual reality has come instead. You also ought to know that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem only symbolizes the 144000 people who come to faith BEFORE the great tribulation. After the tribulation (the third world war) there will be many who realize that the biblical prophecies were true, so they take to faith and become members of God's people on a world that won't anymore experience such a calamity.

With kind greetings
PehJeshua

Judging from the scriptures , the two witnesses will manifest the awesome power of God which would make them very easy to find.

I hope they will be responsible with all that power!

PehJeshua,
I've never heard anybody describe the abomination of desolation this way, and it's definitely something people need to think about. And I absolutely agree with you that "what comes out of their mouth is the convincing true power of the Word, not literal fire." It's the truth that they speak, their witness of the Savior. That will confound their enemies and witness against them, which is worse than an immediate physical death.

Is your name meant in the sense of "Peh" meaning "mouth"? I googled it and was wondering. Keep posting! It's really nice not to read the same "Moses and Elijah will return as the witnesses" ideas.

Dear Grego,

God doesn't work that way, for His fatherly heart is that all should see the truth, believe and live by it. Dont you remember what happened once when the disciples of Jesus asked him to bring fire down from heaven to kill some people? Jesus warned them that their attitude toward humankind was not according to God's will. That is why you definitely are wrong as to the literal fire. Take care!

Kind regards
PJ

Dear Shy1,

In the love of God who called me I tell you that what I write here is the true meaning of the Scripture and part of the everlasting gospel that leads me.

You wrote to me:


My answer:
You could not have heard a description like this before because what I talk about are still hidden things to most of the world's population, but God my Lord sent me here to talk to you and give you wise advice on Scripture, and to everybody else who cares to know. If there is somebody who doesnt care I leave him and go to others who will care. I dont fight but my word are true all the same. My heart cries when I see how mistaken most people are about the inner meanings of Scripture, for their pastors and teachers have lead them astray with unbiblical figments of their own.

Yes, you are right, the word Peh stands for mouth, namely the mouth of Joshua, for that mouth is speaking out of the everlasting gospel. He cries to you from the land in the north. My Lord, who called me, warns you not to believe those who say that the two witnesses are people who has already lived on earth in passed days, nor that they symbolize the OT and NT or any two groups of people. The two witnesses are two people living now, and they are likened to two of the living creatures in the book of Revelation. The one who has the face of man is Joshua. These things are still hidden manna (Rev 2:17), but our caring God looked to your heart and sent me to you to talk about these things and show you what it all is about.

With a caring heart
PehJeshua

Dear Patmos,

Since I had not enough time to touch on the 2300 days and evenings (Dan 8:14) in my first answer to you, I will do it now.

You wrote:
"Aren't the 2300 days and evenings, real days and real evenings....not yrs for example, they prophesy two events re: the abomination of desolation....the first time with Antiochus Epiphane when he foreshadowed the abomination of desolation before the Maccabean revolt...this is the amount of time his self exhaltation holds...therefore we have 6.38 yrs of abomination."

My answer:
Biblical prophecies have got two aspects, one aspect that we can call historical as it oftenmost relates to historical Israel, and at other times to literal things that are touchable and visible like the body or death, and one aspect that we can call spiritual since it relates to faith and God's people in the spiritual sense.

In old Israel there were two sacrifices, one in the morning and one in the evening, so on this basis we can say that the total number of 2300 morning and evening sacrifices make up 1150 days. These days have got both a historical and a spiritual aspect, the first one meaning 1150 historical days and the second one meaning a period of 1150 years, but still both applications of the number 1150 relates to the two witnesses in New Testament time.

In prophetical use 'day' can also mean 'year', as is seen from the use of the word in Ezek 4. Well, to collect the threads, the two witnesses will be publicly proclaiming the will of God for 42 months or 3 1/2 years as prophets (Rev 11:3) after first having been witnesses that measured the spiritual temple for 42 months.

The 1150 days in historical meaning are included in the witnessing period of 42 months (Rev 11:2), when they measure the spiritual temple, not the prophesying period of theirs, for the 1150 days lead up to the time of the reconsecration of the fallen church (Dan 8:14), when the two witnesses step forward pubicly to proclaim God's last warning.

What I aimed to tell you by this is that the time of the witnesses is likened to a week, and that week is what is meant in Dan 9:27 in its spiritual sense. In its historical sense Dan 9:27 tells us about the last 7 years of the 490 years (70 "weeks") of the Jews (Dan 9:24). From this you ought to know that the week of the witnesses is kind of divided into halves, and each half is 3 1/2 years long. The first half is hidden to the world but the second half will be a cataclysmic time to the world, for God will start the harvest and call into his realm 144000 elected out of diaspora (Rev 14). They are people who will pay heed to the message of the two witnesses and thus be saved, and in their number are include all kinds of people, not only Jews, since this happen in the time of the Gentiles (with Rom 11:25).

What is called Millennium is a period that lasts twice 1260 years, the first period of time being the time of the Gentiles (Rev 12:6), and the second period being the time of historical Israel, after the "woman" has fled to her place, Israel (Rev 12:14). At that time is fulfilled what the apostle tells us in Rom 11:25-27. Dont be blind to it! Well, to end this explanation, the "2300 mornings and evenings" in spritual sense (1150 years) belong in the time period of the Gentiles (1260 years) and lead up to the time of historical Israel (1260 years), but they start with the witness being called by God. This is why the pivotal year of the witness is the secret of the 2300 mornings and evenings. The holy person who spoke according to Dan 8:13 was the so-called man child of Rev 12:5, who also is mentioned in Rev 7:2, coming from the RISING of the sun, not from the east as many teachers falsely expounds the biblical verse.

Let me summorize this to make it clear. NT time is divided into 7 trumpets and 7 seals, and the time of the beast or falsehood (those many false teachers = Antichrist, 2 John 7), runs from the 3rd trumpet's time until the end of the 5th trumpet's time, but it will have repercussions into the beginning of the 6th trumpet's time. What is callled Millennium will be the time of the 6th and the 7th trumpet. The 6th trumpet's time is now and will be the time of the Gentiles, whereas the 7th trumpet's time will become the time of the historical Israel, after its regeneration.

Before the outbreak of the great tribulation which is the definite end of the beast's rule the two witnesses will appear on the scene and tell all the world what is hidden in the book of God. This is done because God will save as many people as possible, and to remove all excuses from them who wont turn away from their sins. When the end comes sinners will not be able to excuse themselves by saying: We didnt know about these things! Of course they will know, for God will give them a final warning!

With sorrow in heart
PehJesua

PehJeshua,

By your screen name you claim to be the mouthpiece of God. Jeshua/Joshua/Jesus means salvation. You said the God you love or who loves you or something like that sent you to teach those who will listen. These aren't quotes of what you have written, but are nonetheless accurate are they not?

The bible tells us to know those who labor among us and by your teaching you do labor. So I ask you to tell us of your faith. You haven't mentioned Jesus that I recall. Do you believe Him to be Equal with God our Father?

We're also warned repeatedly about false teachers. Many of the teachings that you bring are new teachings here and we must be careful when examining them. I can agree with some of what you present, and have a big question mark as to other teachings of yours.

This is common here as well spoken people such as yourself bring 'new' revelation here quite often, and it can be difficult to discern whether or not it is truth, or some mixture of truth and error.

You said:
"And who taught you that Jesus will return in person BEFORE the so-called MILLENNIUM has been on this earth? I tell you, that when you read Isa 65:17-25 you will see that even on the NEW EARTH people will build houses, raise children and die, and this cannot happen if NEW EARTH and NEW HEAVEN meant eternity. Jesus himself has said that after the bodily resurrection (which happens on the VERY LAST DAY) there will not be taken a wife or give a wife, for the spiritual reality has come instead. You also ought to know that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem only symbolizes the 144000 people who come to faith BEFORE the great tribulation. After the tribulation (the third world war) there will be many who realize that the biblical prophecies were true, so they take to faith and become members of God's people on a world that won't anymore experience such a calamity."

This is essentially what the Jehovah's witnesses teach. Only 144,000 are saved. Are You Jehova's Witness? (I don't mean a witness of Jehovah, many of us are witnesses for Him) Or are you a member of a group that splintered from them?

I'm not calling you a false teacher though I can't abide your saying that only 144,000 come to faith prior to the tribulation, I'm awaiting your reply.

May the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ shine upon and through you.

Dear chrio39,

Your questions are to the point, so I will answer you on the basis of Scripture, for a strange book was given me to eat, but it gave me pain in my stomach, though it was sweet in my mouth. Yes, test its contents and see if it is from God Almighty.

You wrote:
[quote name='chrio39' date='Sep 17 2007, 05:45 PM' post='122063']
PehJeshua,

By your screen name you claim to be the mouthpiece of God. Jeshua/Joshua/Jesus means salvation. You said the God you love or who loves you or something like that sent you to teach those who will listen. These aren't quotes of what you have written, but are nonetheless accurate are they not? [/quote]

My answer:
Yes, PehJeshua means 'the mouth of Joshua' but the words coming through that mouth are those written on the stone having seven eyes. What stone is it if not our Saviour Jesus Christ, and what might the inscription on it be if not the contents of the hidden manna of Rev 2:17?


You wrote:
[quote] The bible tells us to know those who labor among us and by your teaching you do labor. So I ask you to tell us of your faith. You haven't mentioned Jesus that I recall. Do you believe Him to be Equal with God our Father? [/quote]

My answer:
My faith is the everlasting gospel that is mentioned in Rev 14:6. What I say here I do say according to the one and only gospel of God in spite of its being now 'the everlasting gospel'. By that name it was not known in the apostolic time, that is, before the disastrous falling away of the Christian church, for since the church would fall away and thus leave the foundation of truth there would no longer be a church proclaiming the gospel. In that way there came a time of silence with nobody preaching the true gospel, and in that way came the spiritual night which Jesus himself foretold (John 9:4) - in which nobody would be able to work (spiritually). When the true doctrine and seal of the living God comes back to earth through the messenger of God, as seen in Rev 7:2, then comes the gospel back victoriously for evermore, and because of that it is called 'everlasting'. It comes back as the hidden manna revealed to God's messengers, and from that basis will the two witnesses raise their voices. When I talk on these things in truthfulness I do indeed mention Jesus, for he is the Word of God. Shouting 'my Lord, my Lord' is something everybody can do without having any connection to God, whereas telling true things from Scripture is possible only if the talking mouth is part of the gospel.

The answer to your question if I believe that Jesus Christ is equal with God our Father is 'yes', but remember that when Jesus was taken up his body was glorified in becoming part of the Godhead. In this way Psalm 8:4-5 became true.

You wrote:
[quote] We're also warned repeatedly about false teachers. Many of the teachings that you bring are new teachings here and we must be careful when examining them. I can agree with some of what you present, and have a big question mark as to other teachings of yours. [/quote]

My answer:
Yes, new because of the hidden manna that the Lord gave me. Being careful should mean prayer to the Lord and honest contemplation on the basis of Scripture. The big question mark will be reduced to a smaller one if you give yourself time and occasion to find out the true meaning of Scripture as presented here by me.

You wrote:
[/quote] This is common here as well spoken people such as yourself bring 'new' revelation here quite often, and it can be difficult to discern whether or not it is truth, or some mixture of truth and error. [/quote]

My answer:
Yes, it will be difficult especially if sin is allowed to subjugate you and take the place of true obedience to our Saviour. But our Lord will call in the voice of a good shepherd, a voice that permeates all of Scripture. Since this is true a servant of God will also speak in that same voice, and the voice will not be a stranger's voice to the the sheep. They will hear and feel the softness of a caring shepherd and come to the fold.

You quote me as having said this:
And who taught you that Jesus will return in person BEFORE the so-called MILLENNIUM has been on this earth? I tell you, that when you read Isa 65:17-25 you will see that even on the NEW EARTH people will build houses, raise children and die, and this cannot happen if NEW EARTH and NEW HEAVEN meant eternity. Jesus himself has said that after the bodily resurrection (which happens on the VERY LAST DAY) there will not be taken a wife or give a wife, for the spiritual reality has come instead. You also ought to know that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem only symbolizes the 144000 people who come to faith BEFORE the great tribulation. After the tribulation (the third world war) there will be many who realize that the biblical prophecies were true, so they take to faith and become members of God's people on a world that won't anymore experience such a calamity.

My answer:
Yes, these are my words but still I am no Jehovah's witness.

You wrote:
[quote] This is essentially what the Jehovah's witnesses teach. Only 144,000 are saved. Are You Jehova's Witness? (I don't mean a witness of Jehovah, many of us are witnesses for Him) Or are you a member of a group that splintered from them?[/quote]

My answer:
No, this is not what the Jehovah withesses teach, for I say that the 144000 will be people living on this earth. They will not be taken up to heaven to form a governmental body, as falsely taught by the Watchtower Society, for NOBODY will be bodily resurrected until the VERY LAST DAY. That is what our Saviour teaches us, and who has got the right to deny this biblical fact? No, I dont belong to a splintered group of theirs. They do all of them represent false teachings against the Lord's true gospel!

You wrote:
[quote] I'm not calling you a false teacher though I can't abide your saying that only 144,000 come to faith prior to the tribulation, I'm awaiting your reply. [/quote]

My answer:
Listen, in Rev 14:3-4 the following words are said:

"No one could learn the song EXCEPT the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as FIRSTFRUITS to God and the Lamb."

Dont you agree that the word except means that only the 144000 people could learn the mentioned song and by it became the FIRSTFRUITS? If they became the firstfruits then they must be a group that is harvested as such (Rev 14:15-16) in difference from those who will be gathered as clusters of grapes and thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath (Rev 14:19). Those who are spared in the tribulation will be the great multitude of Rev 7:9, as you can see from Rev 7:14. Those who are called and believe BEFORE the tribulation will be FIRSTFRUITS in comparison with those who are called and believe AFTER the tribulation. You should know that there will be no calling or time of grace while the tribulation rages, nor any proclamation of the gospel. No, Jesus clearly shows us in Matthew 24:14 that the true gospel will FIRST be preached, then will come the tribulation which Jesus calls the 'end', namely the end to the worldly powers that have ruled the world up to then with terror.

Well, the good Lord will shorten those days to spare many people, and those people will see afterwards, after having gone through the pangs of tribulation and through great despair, that the good Lord spared them in spite of all, and they will be greatly moved, also remembering what God's two witnesses did proclaim before all these things come true.

Surely, I tell you what Scripture itself reveals, so these words are true indeed.

You wrote:
[quote] May the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ shine upon and through you.
[/quote]

My answer:
If I am a witness of God then it cannot be otherwise. Look, I put my words into the scales for you to find out if I am speaking true things from Scripture. May God bless you to see and live!

With a caring heart in all humbleness
PehJeshuah

PehJeshua

Well, I think that's interesting point and there is something hidden there in those particular numbers, because men throughout time have struggled with it's meaing and I don't believe anyone has adequately answered them.

The witnesses of God however are prophets and are raised up as prophets...Like any prophet they spend a lot of time in the word thus are students of God's word. They will not be adding to the Word, thus part of the definition of witness..they will further define the times and era of the Great Tribulation and most of their prophecies will fit within the framework of the 7 yr period...some happening quite quickly and other prophecies coming to pass after they are brutally killed. These prophecies won't add to or take from what is written but rather enhance it's meaning to the ignorant masses that don't understand what is taking place because God's Son/Jesus already delivered everything that was needed for the saints.

However, the real signification of the word witness is it's root meaning from the Greek which is Martus or Martyr. They are martyred at the end by satan because they will be defending David's tent where the Ark of the Covenant will be. That is his real object of desire, that is why I previously elaborated on David's tent vs Soloman's non sanctionned 3rd temple. Without willful participation on the the 2 witnesses parts, this would not be possible. They have to give up their lives and let satan murder them.

In order to be like God, satan will want to inhabit the mercy seat between the two cherebim and this has been his goal since the beginning; he will kill the 2 witnesses eventhough that will permanantly determine his fate in the lake of fire.

That is primary focus of their ministry. Is to put satan out of business at the great White Throne judgement. He will have committed all of the charges put forth by God against him, and will do so against the 2 witnesses. The trial will be quick and guilty will be the charge. Once again we see God who is the judge and all will be tried by 2 witnesses! So, even that scum bag satan, get's a trial and it will be speedy and quick.

God empowers them with never before seen powers to defend themselves so that all of the prophetic can be fulfilled, because of course, that would be an escape clause for the devil. The ministry to the 144,000 and the fulfillment to the house of David is Part 2 of their assignment. This also has to be fulfilled or God's word would not be innerrant...

But the word witness really has a much deeper long term meaning than what is elborated upon and one of the chief roles of the mission is to bind the binder forever. You will note that although satan precipitated the death of Jesus by inciting Judas, the Pharisees and a large crowd..there is no mention of him actually killing his arch enemy on the cross..this is because he has carefully worked behind the scenes and I suspect has never directly killed anyone, wanting an escape clause to the charges that God has brought forth. Surely he had no problem inciting things, aiding and abetting but I suspect he has carefully gotten others to do the dirty deed of murder, for their are enough base demons to take care of that simple act if the demonic is needed. Of course, he always sold off his program to his boys, so to speak, by telling them he would get them off of all the charges because he would prove God to be wrong....but, the 2 witnesses wrap up his fate and thus God endows them with powers never before seen to make sure their witness is true.

Dear Patmos,

It is now clear to me that you dont actually listen to and contemplate about what other people say to but run instead your own course paying no heed to whatever Scripture tells us. Therefore you are far removed also from the truth about the two witnesses, and your talk is just pulling the wool down other people's eyes. That I will show in this answer. If a witness of God talks, what he says must be true since he is indeed a true witness. Should what he says be opposed to by a person who is not a witness, then we have a situation where falsehood stands against the truth, or we could say that the opponent of truth is trying to do harm to the truthful witness and his testimony. What then happens is that the true witness opens his mouth on the basis of Scripture and REFUTES the lies of his opponent(s), and in this manner there comes a fire out of his mouth and kills his opponent. This is exactly what Psalm 149 is all about, and this is the way of God's witnesses. Therefore, dont tell lies anymore but humble yourself and look to Scripture instead.

you wrote:



My answer:
What the witness of God knows you cannot know or tell, for what is hidden to the world need not be hidden to God's servants. Remember that!

You wrote:


My answrer:
Listen, the two witnesses will not "define the times and eara fo the great tribulation", for the tribulation time is known only to God, as Jesus himself says. Nobody knows or will know that day except the Father. So stop talking against Scripture! That the two witnesses will know the biblical times is sure, but their prophecies will not be restricted to a seven year period only, for their testimony will concern all the rest of NT time, even to the end.

You wrote:


My answer:
To be honest with you, you dont know what David's tent is or the ark of the covenant, even though you talk about these things. Let me tell you that the ark of covenant is Jesus himself, and the historical ark of covenant will never be of interest any more. Are are not moving back to the covenant of circumcision, so you are wrong also at this point. What you says only show that you dont understand that today the court and two rooms of the historical tabernacle and temple are examples that describe greater things belonging to worship and faith. I will not enlarge on that now, only mention it and remind you of what the apostle Paul explains about the Most Holy. I tell you frankly, in spiritual sense the Most Holy is the second dispensation of God's people in NT time, that which is called a new earth and a new heaven. The Holy, which was the first room in the tabernacle and temple, symbolizes the apostolic dispensation and times, whereas the court symbolizes the covenant and time of circumcision. In historical sense the symbolism of the temple divides between earth and heaven, or the Old and the New Covenant, the Most Holy thus being Heaven where God is and Jesus Christ on His right side. What prophecy calls David's tent is actually the apostolic faith an dorctrine that falsehood waged war against and conquered according to Rev 13:7-8. We could say that the Holy (the apostolic doctrine, faith and dispensation) was given to the Gentiles (Rev 11:2). It became a court, and a new Holy had to be concecrated instead of it, and it became the Most Holy. Well, the ark and the cherubim on it belong to the Most Holy, which is the time and doctrine of the third dispensation, which is now. The first dispensation of the New Covenant was totally destroyed by the beast.

You wrote:


My answer:
You are speaking the figments of lost people, and it is not true what you say. According to Paul the Antichrist (or Satan) should take his seat in God's temple and pollute it, but it iwould have been totally impossible for him to take his seat on the mercy seat between the two cherubim, since the mercy seat is Jesus himself who already had defeated him! You are, to be mild, completely off the tracks!

You wrote:


My answer:
The two witnesses will have nothing to do with the great white throne, which is mentioned in Rev 20:11-15, for that throne is the judgement seat of God on last and great day. On that day all mankind will stand before the throne, including the two witnesses, and the judgement is all in God's through His Son. You are once again telling lies against Scripture! You dont see any difference of the judgement that God's people carry out in the midst of NT time (Matthew 29:28), when there is REGENERATION, and the judgement that will be held on the very last day of this earth. On the last day and in the last judgement there will be no REGENERATION, so you completely wrong as to these things also!

You wrote:


My answer:
Listen, the two witnesses are sent to defend the elect and to guide them through the lies of Satan, and that will be their foremost work. What you said earlier shows clearly that you dont know what the house of David is, so there is no need for me to touch on that topic here.

You wrote:


My answer:
What you say here I simply kick into the trash can without commenting on, for this has no bearing whatsoever on the two witnesses. You ought to stop making such figments on Scripture and rather start listening to what the Word of God actually tells you and me! That is my piece of advice to you.

With hopes
PJ

(The above commens in blue are mine.) I appreciate your response to my questions and am mostly satisfied except that the 144,000 haven't defiled themselves with women, yet it seems to me that you refer to them as if they are the only ones saved prior to the Tribulation. If so, then what does the part about such defilement speak of? Do you take it as literal, and if so, what constitutes defilement w/ women? Also do you say that the 144,000 are saved and the rest all go into God's winepress of wrath?

Dear Chrio39,

I am really happy experiencing your patience in spite of me not having yet enlarged to the full on what your questions concern, for that is a quality much appreciated among serious people. Let me therefore, please, try to give you a more precise answer to what you asked.

First of all, many people believe that the 144000 in Rev 14 are Jews and only men, but they arent. This happenes before the dispensation of the Gentiles ends, as foretold by Paul, actually in the beginning of their 1260 year long period, and not in the 1260 year long time period of the Jews that follows and ends the time of humankind on this earth. You will also understand that there will not be space enough for 144000 natural people to stand and walk around on what was the natural Mount Sion in Jerusalem, and for what purpose? A corroborating fact is also that Jesus will not return to this earth before the VERY LAST DAY comes, for that he tells us himself. What is called Parousia or The coming of Jesus Christ elsewhere in Scripture relates to what Jesus calls REGENERATION in Matthew 19:28, and that is a spritual coming, which happens after the rule of the beast (Rev 13). When it starts then starts also a war in heaven according to Rev 12:7 and scriptures elsewhere. This war can not be in God's invisible heaven, from where Satan was thrown long ago, as explained by Jesus, so therefore it must be a war that the saints wage back on the beast and its falsehood. That is why Scripture tells us that God's people will be sitting on thrones and judge, as also foretold by the apostle Paul.

Secondly, even though it is said that the 144000 have not defiled themselves with women, the words 'defiled' and 'women' dont apply to natural women, but to false churches and denominations. There are many examples in Scripture of this figurative usage of 'woman', for instance what is said about Ohola and Oholibai Ezek 23, and about Jezebel in Rev 2:20. So, the prophetic fact is this, that since the apostolic church have fallen away and what was the Christian church has splintered into thousands of disagreeing curches and doctrines, there came instead a lot of 'defiling women', like Jezebel (Rev 2:20), who symbolizes a state church. All who read the Bible know that according to Rev 18:4 there will come a shout telling God's people to leave these women that collectively are called Babylon, even though both state and church is included in that name since the Gentiles swarmed into the holy place where they should not be. The shout that will be heard by God's people who are still where they should not be, comes through the mouth of the two witnesses. Scripture tells us that only 144000 people will learn the SONG, which is NEW compared to that which was sung in apostolic times. Learning the song of Moses and the Lamb means learning to die away from sin and be resurrected to a new life in Jesus Christ, but that process of death and life will be possible only if the person's eyes are opened to what is the true doctrine of Jesus Christ. I cannot change the number of 144000 to include all people on this earth, even though I wished I could, so I must accept that only that number of people will believe in the everlasting gospel and be marked as God's people. What Scripture tells us further, is that the whole population of this world must go through the great tribulation, even God's people since there will be no bodily resurrection until the VERY LAST DAY. This happens in the middle of NT time (Hab 3:2 in KJV is in harmony with the Hebrew text: "LORD, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O LORD, revive thy work IN THE MIDSTS OF THE YEARS, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy). When you read Rev 16:19 you will see that the cities of the nations will fall, so this will be the great tribulation, a terrible war coming over the head of all mankind. In that war 1/3 of mankind will die directly and 1/3 of the repercussions of the war, and only 1/3 will survive. You thus see that even though only 144000 people are sealed by faith before that war a much greater number of people will survive till the end. Those who are cast into the God's winepress are those who are destroyed because of their ingrained sins against the Lord, namely those who constitute the beast. For them there is no mercy in eternity. Those who survive will be the new mankind, and from this number of people is constituted the great multitude that Rev 7:9-17 tells about. All mankind will be united and wars have an end.

Therefore, dear Chrio39, all this what I have explained to you is the true word of God, so if you abide by this even greater things will be shown to you, and to all other people who search honestly, for I am indeed a witness of God, and my words shall prove it.

Be blessed by my father and solaced in truth
God's little witness, PJ

May I chip in :
woman= religion , thus virgins are those not defiled with doctrines of men . Those who will only receive the seed of the Groom, (The Words of Jesus) into their spirit and nothing else.

Look,: Mary is our example here of how to be as Christians:Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold, the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

See? The VIRGIN only receives the WORD....no SEED from MEN.

The Bible tells us that Mary is also a SIGN . A sign means that the sign is pointing to something else as well.
Mary was fulfilling a prophecy PLUS she is a sign that points to us in these times. She is pointing to the woman on the moon . She is pointing to the virgin church , bringing forth Christ in the flesh of the church. She is pointing to Romans 8/ John 16/ and Rev 12

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Immanuel=God with us) Notice how after the Resurrection it is now: God IN us.Christ IN you the hope of glory.

We have moved into:
Isa 45:14 ............Surely God is in thee;............




First Fruits= there are some that come into "sonship" (Romans 8/John 16/Rev 12 ) before others, but others follow.The others follow during the tribulation. (The woman (again church) on the moon, gets fed the Word in the wilderness (Tribulation) and she also come into sonship or manifesting Christ (walking and speaking as Christ)
So nobody gets left out, some are just before others. It has always been so. The disciples were also the first fruits.

There has to be First Fruits, because what I am speaking about, very few in the church even thinks about. But there are those who already know and understand this. They go first and then bring the rest into the fullness of Christ as well.

If we look at the Harlot: she receives more than the Word, she also receives the "seed" of men. She listens to other doctrines.Therefor,not a virgin, not the Bride, but a Harlot.

You forgot to mention the man-child C.

Dear C,

The prophecies of the Bible has got two aspects, each having relevance either to historical Israel or to God's people in spiritual sense. When you bring forward Mary as the sign mentioned in Isa 7:14 you surely cannot do so in relevance either to historical Israel or to God's people in NT times, for the virgin (ha-alma) in question is only part of the sign, as the boy being called Immanuel is the theme of the prophecy . Who was that boy in the historical meaning of the prophecy? I guess you dont know. Since the prophecy also has relevance to God's people of the new covenant (that is, in NT time) you possibly can explain in what way? I wont do for you to say that Mary is meant in Rev 12, for the book of Revelation, which came after the time of Jesus, foretells things that HAD NOT YET COME but were about to come (Rev 1:1). You ought also to take into consideration the following words of Jesus (Matthew 12:46-48):

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." He replied to him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

According to Isa 66:8 Zion is the mother of God's people, though I am not going to enlarge on this theme.

What I am aiming at is telling you that you cannot rightfully say that according to the Bible woman = religion, for a woman per se is nothing bad. Also a woman is a creature of God. Nor can anybody claim that when a man is having sexual intercourse with a woman he being defiled, not in the least if this happens between husband and wife who are believers in God. Let us exclude such erroneous beliefs from consideration.

So let me comment further on what you write.

You wrote:


My answer:
In Mark 9:49 Jesus says this: "For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt." When a person hears the gospel and starts to believe it he (or she) will have to decide if he will oppose to the will of sin in his body or yield to it, that is, let this sacrifice be salted with salt (the Law), or not. If he decides to oppose the demands of sin in his body, which is to let God's commandments salt or kill the rule of sin he will as a believing person being salted with fire, for it is no easy thing to deny oneself. This is how God's word works in us, and when it happens, we are like the married woman about who the apostle tells in Rom 7, who is in bonds with a sinful will or man. In the OT law it was demanded that if a woman's husband was condemned to death she would be the first one to throw stones on him, since he had broken the holy law. We are, as women, demanded to do the same to our first man, the rule of sin over us in us. But it is like being baptized with fire to deny oneself, it hurts and burns to the depths of our lives. So, dear C, what happens is that God first sends his servant Moses, the Law, and actually kills our life, our first man. When the rule of sin dies in us in this way, we become like widows, without a husband. Only then God can give birth to a new seed in us, who becomes our new life and husband. He and only he becomes our spirit and life, and not we ourselves, for what is under the Law and death is what belonged to us. But by his mercy God gives us a new life, who is Jesus Christ, and he cuts sin away from us and sets the Law upon it, thus letting us walk with himself on the floor of the Law after his will, while the rule of sin is underneath that same Law in us. This is the way of regeneration, and nothing else.

You wrote:


My answer:
Your example doesn apply properly if we take into consideration what the apostle Paul expounds on regeneration and belief in Rom 7. When the Word comes to us we are no virgins or innocent people but rather people living under the rule of a sinful will in us. And Mary was no sign alone but together with her offspring, the Son. Her importance in worship is therefore minimized by Jesus who said that what counts is that we do the will of God, and in doing so we are not mothers, but also brothers and sisters. A believer is procrated by the same Father as Jesus was, and the Word is our Mother through who we become the brothers and sisters of Jesus. We are his mothers if we let the true word of God bring other people to the realization and acceptance of faith.

You wrote:


My answer:
She is not a sign but an example, for the woman on the moon in Rev 12 is herself a sign. Would you say that Mary is a sign pointing to a sign?

You wrote:


My answer:
You miss the point of the prophecy! First of all the sign was historical, that a virgin gave birth to a son, but the sign is also spiritual, namely that a woman gave birth to the man child! What about this? Well, the book of Revelation was written after the birth of Jesus as man, so there must be another application for the birth of the man child. Do you know it? If not, you can ask me, as God has revealed these hidden things to me.

You wrote:


My answer:
Now you are talking rubbish and against Scripture! There will be no chance of conversion DURING the great tribulation, for that tribulation is a terrible war, and it is said in Scripture that the temple will be filled with smoke and NOBODY CAN GO IN. You are also completely wrong about the WILDERNESS, for it means the Gentile world, not the tribulation. Why is the wilderness the Gentile world? Well, because the Christian church was in the Gentile world and fell away from truth in that same world! Listen, the 144000 of the pretribulational time are the firstfruits compared to the great multitude of believers of the posttribulational time. There is nothing mysterious about it, just a biblical fact! Yes, the disciples were the firstfruits of their time, but the great multitude is not the firstfruits. Dont mix things up, Scripture is plain about these things!

You wrote:


My answer:
Listen, why cannot you see that the two witnesses are called proclaimers of truth in Scripture and thus are those who goes first to clear the way to God's people? There are no other forerunners in our times, whatever might be claimed by many. What is called a harlot in Scripture is every church that defile the true teachings of Scripture with manmade figments and lies.

Take care, you are not safe!
In humbleness
PJ

Excubitor is right. I should mention it. The man child/ Bride is the First Fruits.
Thanks Ex.
love C

Jesus Comforts his disciples:

The Women in Travail is an example for the expectation of the coming of our LORD Jesus, returning for his Bride.

19. Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me, and AGAIN, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep, and lament, but the world shall rejoice, and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

This verse also reminds us of how they will celebrate when the two witnesses are killed.
BUT GOD HAS A BIGGER PLAN. AMEN

21. A Woman when she is in TRAVIAL hath sorrow, because her hour is come; but as soon as she is dilivered of the child, she rememberieth NO MORE THE ANGUISH, FOR JOY THAT A MAN IN BORN INTO THE WORLD.

22. And ye now thererfore have sorrow; but I WILL SEE YOU AGAIN, and your HEART SHALL REJOICE< and YOUR JOY NO MAN TAKETH FROM YOU.

23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you.

24. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name; ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

24. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs; but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall SHEW YOU PLAINLY of the FATHER.

26. At that day ye shall ask in my name, and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27. For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28. I came forth from the Father and am come into the world; AGAIN, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

God's Blessings to all.

When you look carefully , it does not actually speak here about the two witnesses, but the reference is to Revelation 12
Their sorrow turns to joy THAT A MAN IN BORN INTO THE WORLD.

Jesus is actually telling them, that THEY are the woman that is in travail, and they (the church) is bringing forth a child. (First Fruits)

I know its difficult to see and accept, but there it is. Its not according to what we have been taught, but those who taught us, was taught by those to whom this scripture did not apply. It is meant to be understood in the end of the age........where we are now. Now we can understand it, because we will give "birth" as a "woman" to the first fruits. Later fruits will follow.

C

Dear C,

Why do you say things that are dead against what the Bible teaches? When you wrote the following words, you were not doing so in accordance with Scripture, which is really bad:




My answer to you now is as follows:
The man child in Rev 12:5 is not the bride of Jesus Christ but the spiritual coming of Jesus Christ through the messenger mentioned at many places in Scripture, for instance Rev 2:26-28. The morning star given to him is Jesus Christ, thus revealing this to be the spiritual coming of Jesus Christ against the beast. That is why this messenger also is the angel mentioned in Rev 7:2, for he comes from the uprising of the sun, that is, the morning star Jesus Christ is in him and grants him the right to sit with him in his throne (Rev 3:21). Therefore he becomes a pillar in God's New Jerusalem, as seen in Rev 3:12. He is also mentioned in Isa 11:1 as the BRANCH that grows out of the roots of the ROD (Jesus), and therefore Jesus as the word or hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2:17will be this messenger's rod of iron, by which he will rule (Rev 1:27). There is no denying this biblical fact! This messenger or man child is the one who speaks in Dan 8:13 and to who another messenger of God (Rev 11:3) puts his question. By these witensses testimony will the remnant of God be gathered before the terrible day breaks out.

You ought to understand that the man child is the first one to come with his testimony and those who believe what he announces will become the bride of Jesus Christ. Dont make a mess of Scripture, for it is no mess but clear water!

With a caring heart
PJ

C, why wouldn't it apply to then as well?

For Jesus told us that we would be persecuted for his name's sake...just as the disciples where.
I guess the only difference was that they knew that there job was to get the gospel out into the World, for they had seen there fellow man and women killed for Jesus' sake and where Sent forth to save lives in Jesus' name to be Reborn into His Kingdom Come and WILL be DONE on Earth as it is in Heaven....and knew him face to face and that he promised he would return just like as he left ascending to Heaven in the Clouds and leaving the Comforter(HOLY SPIRIT) for us in Travail. Yes I know what you mean, and I don't disagree with you....maybe just they knew the urgency of getting the Good news out in urgency, for he told them that Time was Short, and there has been a period of lapse when the Church has been asleep and scattered.

Blessings to you.

Dear wernotalon,

You wrote this:


I suppose that you are referring to the woman in Rev 12:1-2, but those biblical verses describe the apostolic Christian church before the falling away, that is, before the beast TOOK HER PLACE IN HEAVEN as the red dragon. What do you think this heaven is? I tell you frankly, it is the foundation of Scripture in this world. So Rev 12:3-4 fortold the great apostacy that has happened in Christendom. After this foretold apostacey which should last for 1260 years (Rev 13:5), comes the man child, or rather Jesus Christ spiritually through this true messenger. The pains of the woman before the coming of the beast were the pains for the sake of her faith, for she was persecuted and maltreated. When the man child comes, he becomes the BANDS of Zech 11:14 and the angel of Rev 20:1-2, who binds Satan for thousand years. This happens through a spiritual war in this world, in which truth fights back on falsehood. On both sides are used scriptures. So this is the war in heaven (Rev 12:7). Well, on the basis of what I have expounded to you here you should now understand the following words that you quoted. Do you?



Wih kind regards
PJ

With respect, you are not very clear in what you are saying. This is a forum and not everybody can relate to "the spiritual coming of Jesus" You have to take a bit more time and then give Scripture , to explain what it is that you are saying.

I am not making a mess here, I am clear in what I believe. The man child is the manifestation of Jesus in His Body (John 16, Rom 8 and other scriptures) Its Christ IN us, the hope of glory.
But I see from your other posts that we are not in agreement. That's OK. I am bringing to the forum what I understand. I am not arguing about it, I am saying what I believe.
peace
C


Just a PS. When one is new on a forum, its like entering the house of a stranger. You look around and you wait a bit , then somebody asks you to sit down and would you like a cup of tea. There are certain ways of being courteous , before shouting at your hosts.

If you want to bring something, then do it with respect, or you would not find any ears here that are open to what you bring.

C

I know that all that you say is true about being persecuted, but if you look in context you will see that the disciples asked Jesus about WHEN they (we) will see Him again. You must admit its a strange answer to give about the woman in travail. But if you read Romans 8 you will see how creation is also waiting for the revelation of the sons of God. Then if you look at Rev 12, you will see that again, it sounds the same as John 16. It sounds similar, because it is about the same event. Its the time where Christ is manifested in His body, Its "from glory to glory" Christ IN YOU, is only the hope of glory, whereas this say will be the fulfilment of it. Its Jesus in us coming forward. Its the Body of Christ becoming Christ on earth again, before He comes back on the clouds.

What I am telling you, is something that I did not know until recently. I missed this in Scripture. I had no understanding about Rev 12, I just skipped it, and thought: Oh its about some sign and I cannot understand Revelation its to difficult'
But that is not true. Its called Revelation, not Confusion. If we read the whole Bible and look for clues , we find them. We ask God to reveal and He dies so in His time. Sometimes He waits and other times He answers that moment. But ask we must.

SO , ask Him about Revelation and wait.

love C

[quote name='C' date='Sep 19 2007, 09:23 PM' post='122284']
[quote name='PehJeshua' post='122272' date='Sep 19 2007, 07:19 PM']
Dear C,

Why do you say things that are dead against what the Bible teaches? When you wrote the following words, you were not doing so in accordance with Scripture, which is really bad:


[quote name='C' post='122233' date='Sep 19 2007, 02:36 PM']
Excubitor is right. I should mention it. The man child/ Bride is the First Fruits.
Thanks Ex.
love C
[/quote]

My answer to you now is as follows:
The man child in Rev 12:5 is not the bride of Jesus Christ but the spiritual coming of Jesus Christ through the messenger mentioned at many places in Scripture, for instance Rev 2:26-28. The morning star given to him is Jesus Christ, thus revealing this to be the spiritual coming of Jesus Christ against the beast. That is why this messenger also is the angel mentioned in Rev 7:2, for he comes from the uprising of the sun, that is, the morning star Jesus Christ is in him and grants him the right to sit with him in his throne (Rev 3:21). Therefore he becomes a pillar in God's New Jerusalem, as seen in Rev 3:12. He is also mentioned in Isa 11:1 as the BRANCH that grows out of the roots of the ROD (Jesus), and therefore Jesus as the word or hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2:17will be this messenger's rod of iron, by which he will rule (Rev 1:27). There is no denying this biblical fact! This messenger or man child is the one who speaks in Dan 8:13 and to who another messenger of God (Rev 11:3) puts his question. By these witensses testimony will the remnant of God be gathered before the terrible day breaks out.

You ought to understand that the man child is the first one to come with his testimony and those who believe what he announces will become the bride of Jesus Christ. Dont make a mess of Scripture, for it is no mess but clear water!

With a caring heart
PJ
[/quote]

Dear C,

You wrote these words to me:

[quote]With respect, you are not very clear in what you are saying. This is a forum and not everybody can relate to "the spiritual coming of Jesus" You have to take a bit more time and then give Scripture , to explain what it is that you are saying.

I am not making a mess here, I am clear in what I believe. The man child is the manifestation of Jesus in His Body (John 16, Rom 8 and other scriptures) Its Christ IN us, the hope of glory.
But I see from your other posts that we are not in agreement. That's OK. I am bringing to the forum what I understand. I am not arguing about it, I am saying what I believe.
peace
C[/quote]

And my answer is as follows:
I am perfectly clear in what I write, at least to a person who is well versed in Scripture and knows the biblical verses I quote. Since you say that what I tell about "the spiritual coming of Jesus" is something that not everybody can relate to, I will expound it in more detail with scriptures to back it up.

The Bible divides NT time into 7 time periods, and each of them are ushered in by the sounding of a trumpet or the opening of a seal. The seals and the trumpets tell about the same things, only using different words and symbols. NT time is also divided into 3 woes, and the first woe comprises the first 5 trumpets/seals, whereas the second woe is the same as the sixth trumpet/seal, and the third woe the same as the seventh trumpet/seal. The NT time (beginning with the end of the 70 weeks of Dan 9:24) comprises three distinct time periods, the first being 630 years, the second, third and fourth being 1260 years each. We could say that NT time consists of 3 1/2 time periods: 630 + 1260 (Rev 13:5) + 1260 (Rev 12:6) + 1260 (Rev 12:14). The end of this earth will be when the third time period of 1260 years end. When 630 years end that are reckoned from 36 CE (end of 70 weeks in Dan 9:24), the 1260 year long rule of the beast starts (from 666 CE). That time period is followed by a another time period of 1260 years, which is the first half of the so-called Millennium, and in the beginning of that time period will be the great tribulation. When it ends follows the second half of the Millennium, which is the time period of Israel. These are the time periods into which NT time is divided. The time period that lasts from 36 CE to 666 CE, is what is described in Rev 12:1-2. The second time period of 1260 years is described in Rev 12:3-5, when there happens a deplorable change in Christendom. The third time period, which is the second one of 1260 years, is described in Rev 12:6-13. As the last time period comes the third one of 1260 years, and this one is described in Rev 12:14. With this biblical time frame before our eyes we can place the biblical events at their right place in time. The first question is now: When is the coming of Jesus Christ. The answer is clear: He comes in person only on the very LAST DAY, as he has said himself. Nobody can rightfully change his words to mean that he comes in person at some earlier time within the biblical time frame. The second question will be: Doesnt Scripture tell that Jesus Christ will return to establish his kingdom on earth, which must happen before the very last day? The answer is: Yes, that is what Scripture reveals, but it nowhere says that this return of Jesus Christ will be a personal coming. What Scripture tells us is the following fact: (1) The apostolic church is established as God's kingdom on earth, (2) The apostolic church is overcome by falsehood (Antichrist/the beast), (3) God sends a man child in which His spirit lives to reveal and judge Antichrist and his falsehood, and this is the spirittual coming of Jesus Christ, (4) The two witnesses of God follow the man child and proclaim his teachings, the everlasting gospel, (5) the great tribulation follows and 2/3 of humanity dies, (6) God shortens the tribulational days in order that 1/3 of mankind may live, (7) Millennium is established for all mankind to see.

I tell you that this explanation is true and irrefutably true according to Scripture. Therefore it is also clear and should be easy to understand for everybody who is honestly searching for the truth.

You wrote:
[quote]Just a PS. When one is new on a forum, its like entering the house of a stranger. You look around and you wait a bit , then somebody asks you to sit down and would you like a cup of tea. There are certain ways of being courteous , before shouting at your hosts.

If you want to bring something, then do it with respect, or you would not find any ears here that are open to what you bring.

C
[/quote]

My answer:
What would you say if those who are in the house dont belong there? How can your words be applied in that case? My reference is to what Jesus says in Matthew 8:12:

"But the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDOM shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (kjv)

What children can be cast out like this and for what reason, and when?


With sorrow in heart
PJ

PJ,

I did the math andif I read you right you are saying that the NT time period, beginning at 36 AD, spans 4410 years taking us to 4446 AD. Even if adjusted to the 360 day year you're still talking about 2400 or so more years. Nearly everyone else supports another 1000 years or so. Please speak to this. If I understand you correctly you say that we're in the 1st half of the tribulation starting in 1926 or so. The second half beginning in 1180 or so years from now. Did I miss something here? I've more questions but I just read so much, & it is late & I'm tired.

Blessings to you.

Dear Chrio39,

Yes, the NT time period spans 4410 years, taking us to 4446 CE. That means that these numbers show that there are more than 2400 years still to come. When nearly everyone else reckon about 1000 years still to come I think the reason must be that they are not cognizant of the biblical fact that the so-called Millennium lasts not only ONE THOUSAND YEARS but THOUSANDS OF YEARS (1260 + 1260 years). There is a change in the midst of this period, that is after the first 1260 years, for the Gentiles will again turn away from the truth of God and start persecuting God's people, so God's people will have to flee to the historical Israel. Those individuals who dont seek security in Israel but keep staying in the Gentile world, will be persecuted, and they are described in Rev Rev 12:17. Israel is called a wilderness because it had not, until then, accepted Jesus Christ as Messiah. The Gentile world was called a wilderness because the Christian church had fellen away in the time of the beast, so this world was like dry land until the REGENERATION started (Matthew 19:28).

No, I dont say that we're living in the 1st half of the tribulation starting in 1926 or so, but that in biblical reckoning the second time period of 1260 years started in 1926. In the beginning of this time period there will be a great tribulation in historical sense, namely a war, but no person knows exactly when it will break out. What we know from Scripture is that according to Dan 12:12 there will pass 1335 years from 666 CE to what is called ACHARITH (the end) in Hebrew. Everyone knows now that there came a dramatic change in the political world in that year, namely in 2001 CE, with what happened to the twin towers in New York. What will happen in this second period of 1260 years is described in Rev 9:13-11:14 and Rev 6:12-7:1-17. Before God starts punishing the ungodly world in full measure to wipe away the beast and its power the two witnesses of God will let their voices be heard and warn all mankind. The strange and deplorable thing is that according to the Bible most people will neglect their words and message, even hate and persecute them. But still, there will be a certain number of people who will pay heed to their message and turn back to the true worship of God.

With sorrow in heart
PJ

Thanks for humoring me...we'll see who'll stand and who will fall...when you've faced satan for 40 days and 40 nights,give me a call;)

Patmos

Dear Patmos,

Whatever your judgement of me it remains true that I am not, like many, a person who CORRUPTS THE WORD OF GOD, like you did, but one who is sincere, as commissioned by God, speaking in the sight of God in Christ. (2 Cor 2:17)

As for your mention about me facing Satan for 40 days and night, I can tell you frankly that I have not claimed to be Jesus Christ or the man child of Rev 12:5, but I do claim that I partake of the everlasting gospel of Rev 14:6, and thus Satan has got nothing in me as a believer in Jesus Christ. (John 14:30) So I ask you on the basis of the words of the apostle Paul (Rom 8:34): Who are you to condemn since, after all, it is Christ who makes intercession for his believers?

And in addition, if you still mean that your explanation about the man child was true you are welcome to show it to be true from Scripture, thus refuting what I said against you, if you can.

With sorrow in heart
PJ

Well, I haven't judged you one iota. I have only intimated that you don't really understand all that will come to pass.

Amos 9:8-9:11 says exactly what I have said. I did not make this up and the verse is not to be spiritualized into some sort of Covenental promise to the Church as it specifically address the sons of Jacob:

Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD [are] upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.

For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth

All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us.

In that day will I raise up the tabernacle/tent of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:


The Bible is a legal document with covental promises...it's all about marriage, divorce and legal judgement:

God will execute judgement on satan the same way he will unredeemed man.

1 Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. and again: Deu 19:15

This does not teach anything contrary to Paul's teaching....it harmonizes with it.

This is why the witnesses have to die...they have to serve up their lives and be belittle and made into something lower in order to witness against satan.

Rev 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Heb 1:1-2 od, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets


Regarding the ark of the covenant. The ark is not Jesus and never has been Jesus. The ark was a box made of acacia wood and gold....It represented Jesus, the wood representing Him as 100% man and the Gold representing Him to be 100% God. The cherebim are the angels that cover. Satan knows this well, cause he used to be one..the main one and that's what he wants.

The ark is only there because the jews need a sign in order to believe. There will be no power in the ark until God withdraws His spirit...then it will be taken out unto the wilderness with the remant jews, almost like the crossing of the red sea...we see they are chased by the seas but earthquake swallows up the offender....sea=gentile heathen....

The sea always represents the gentile heathen....therefore we see one beast comes out of the sea/gentile heathen and the other beast out the sand of the sea...jewish heathen...Son Abraham...whose decendants are as the sand of the sea.....One is the anti christ and the other is the false prophet and in spite of these two specific individuals, the unredeemed man both gentile and jew will be in one of the programs..sea or sand because they are also worldwide systems.

I could go on and on ab