I wonder what makes a person believe that they are one of the two. As has been pointed out, there are people out there claiming to be one. What happened to all of those people that made them believe they were called and chosen? If we sat them down in a room together, would we hear identical stories? Deception is such an insidious thing, and I wonder how it works in that specific instance. That's a HUGE calling for God to entrust to someone, and He has to be absolutely certain of them, that there is no deception or false doctrine in them. Would the two witnesses have their "witness" of Christ from the Bible and from the Holy Ghost, or is there more involved than that? Do they need to see the Savior to testify of Him in the way that they will testify?

Dear Shy1,

What happens is that the spirit of deception settles itself in a person who does not receive the truth with love, as can be seen from what the apostle writes in 2 Thes 2:9-11:

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because THEY REFUSE TO LOVE THE TRUTH and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that THEY WILL BELIEVE THE LIE and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

As you know, the same poison or disease does not kill all people, so the Devil has got to send different types of deception to accomplish his scheme. If we dont search guidance in the Holy Scripture with an honest heart, praying to God for eye salve (Rev 3:18), we will not be able to find our way through the darkness of deception that covers all the world. If God was allowed to lead people from Australia, from Africa, from Asia, from North-America, from South-America and from Europe, He would do so by His word and spirit. If all these God-led people met at one place, they would have just ONE doctrine and faith, for the ONE spirit of God would be their life. Not so with followers of falsehood. When they meet, they will sit on 7 mountains spiritually and condemn each other, that is: to a certain extent. When the witnesses of God oppose their differing doctrines, they, on the contrary, start to defend each other, saying that God's children are in all these differing churches and beliefs. Well, according to prophecy God's people were subdued by the beast and thus became members of falsehood, so after that change for the worse they became instead idolaters, having fallen away from the true apostolic doctrine and faith. That is why God must shout to they through His messenger in Rev 18:4: "Come out of her, my people!"

So, what would happen if all those who pretend to be one of the two witnesses in Rev 11:3 met each other with their claims? I guess a dogfight but with all of them misusing Scripture. If the true two witnesses of God should happen to meet this pack of quarrelling dogs they would hush them and ask each of them to bring forward their scriptural proofs for their claims instead of quarrelling and rambling on about their divine calling. They would pin those would-be "two witnesses of God" under the burden of their lies and reveal them as impostors, exactly as Togarma, for instance, has been revealed here to be an impostor.

Dear Shy1,
This is what you wonder about:



My answer:
Yes, it is a tremendous calling, and the key to it you will find in Dan 8:13-14. Daniel the prophet heard a certain person asking the messenger of God about the falling-away, and when the answer was given he seemed to understand it. How could it be? Well, what Dan 8:13-14 tells, is also told in Dan 12:5-7 in spite of the answer being seemngly different from that in Dan 8:14. The thing is that the two people on each side of the bank of the river are the two witnesses of God, and the river is the true doctrine of God, also seen in Rev 22:2. You see that these two people first hear the message of the angel, who is the man child of Rev 12:5, and by the medium of his words they understand the answer they received. They also get to know that in receiving and understanding that answer they are being called by God to become His two witnesses, and that their prophetic names are Yeshua and Zerubbabel (the one sown of Babylon). The historical persons by the name Yeshua (Joshua) and Zerubbabel were born in the Babylonian captivity, thus being people who grew up in the Gentile world. They therefore symbolize the biblical fact that the two witnesses of God in Rev 11:3 are not Jewish according to flesh but of Gentile extraction. Since impostors dont know this biblical truth many of them hasten to go to Israel in order that they may appear to fulfill the literal word of being in Jerusalem. What they dont know is that in Rev 11 the Jerusalem meant is spiritual, not historical, for there is but ONE street in that Jerusalem. In the historical Jerusalem, on the contrary, there are many streets, not just one. Besides this biblical fact, the time of the two witnesses of God is that of the sixth trumpet (Rev 9:13-21) and the sixth seal (Rev 6:12-17), while the time of historical Israel will be the time of the 7th trumpet and seal.

Concering your question if the two witnesses of God need to see the Saviour to testify of him in the way that they will testify, the answer is 'yes'. They need to see their Saviour but not with their literal eyes. Their eyes are spiritual and actually altogether '7 eyes' (Zech 3:9). The reason why they will not see their Saviour with natural eyes is that Jesus Christ will not return in person until the very last day, as he says himself, so the two witnesses, who will live and proclaim the truth in flesh in the midst of NT time (Hab 3:2, KJV=Hebrew), will die bodily before the last day is come. Therefore, they will not see the Lord before the time of bodily resurrection is come on the very last day.

What I have told you here is that the two witnesses will be the followers of the messenger 'man child', and thus be like two horns or rays coming out of his hands (Hab 3:4). So, they are in this sense the two horns of the Lamb, about which Jesus talks in Matthew 20:20-23:

"Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom. But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but IT SHALL BE GIVEN TO THEM FOR WHOM IT IS PREPARED OF MY FATHER."

I entrust you in the love of God and hope you will understand what I have expounded for you here, for I assure you that what I have written here is the everlasting truth of God and without blemish.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Pehjeshua are you 1 of the 2 witnesses in Revelations, and will you be alive when Christ returns?

Allow me to speak with the same wind that the peh speaks with.

For now the truth springs from my mouth as dew forms on the earth, and the earth bears witness to the truth. For those of the truth here me!!!

Well, enough of mimicking you --- enough of my mumbo jumbo!

Please don't come to this forum pretending to be some mouth for God! Yes, I have heard from God as you claim to have (and yet both our words and spirit clash). But I don't go about speaking like Jesus as if I cannot speak error. I have been wrong many times and will be again, but this is not the impression that you give.

You are the type of person that tries to intimidate people into just excepting what you say without carefully checking it against the scriptures. Oh, you will tell them to check the scriptures, but the grandiose flow of your words intimidates the foolish and the immature.

It is not that your doctrine is so wrong (and it is wrong at many points), but it is your fleshy attitude that stinks. Please check your spirit or as moderators we will have to do it for you.

And I speak this harshly because I know that you will not listen, and that you are deceived,

and as you have sinned publicly so you are now rebuked publicly.

The apostles did not go about with that kind of haughty air about them.

Friend, a little knowledge has greatly puffed you up.

For your own good, and the good of your hearers, humble yourself. For in fact you are subtly lifting yourself to the place of a so-called pope --- supposed speaking Ex cathedra! God's witness would not do that.

Dear totwtorn,

When John saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and outside (Rev 5:1), and later heard that none was found worthy to open it or to look inside it, either IN HEAVEN or ON EARTH or UNDER THE EARTH, he cried bitterly. While he was weeping one of the elders solaced him saying that the Offspring of David (Isa 11:1) had prevailed to open the scroll and its seven seals. Notice that the Lamb was found worthy to open the scroll in spite of being in HEAVEN, so the heaven meant in which none was found worthy to look inside the scrool is the Christian church on earth, for the spiritual night of which Jesus speaks in John 9:4 had come and shrouded it in darkness through the terrible falling-away. When the time came for the Lamb to start opening the seals of the scrolls, as Rev 5:7 reveals, he actually descended spiritually into the heart of a human being on this earth, on which nobody as yet had been able to read the scroll, and became the morning star in him through faith (Rev 2:28). In that way came the regeneration by faith back to mankind, as foretold in Matthew 19:28, and in that same way was fulfilled Rev 3:21. Isa 11:1 tells us that a Rod should come out of the stem of Jesse, as Jesus did, and that there also would come a Branch from the roots of this Rod Jesus Christ. The word 'roots' reveals that there would be left only roots of the body of Jesus Christ, namely of his church, for the beast of Rev 13 would make war against the saints and prevail over them and every tribe and people and language and nation (Rev 13:7). Wasn't this a strange REGENERATION? If you read Isa 66:6-8 you will see that it is the Word (Zion) that gives birth to this son of God, so therefore he is called 'man child' in Rev 12:6. Well, this man child is the one speaking in Dan 8:13 and Dan 12:7, for he is the angel of God's living water (Rev 22:1; 7:2). This is the background from Scripture that I will give you.

And now you ask me if I am one of the two witnesses? That question is a real stumbling block, and there are already enough people around who would fainly answer 'yes' if you put them that question. My answer is that if there is anything wrong and contrary to Scripture in what I have expounded here, then I am not a witness, but if what I have told everybody here is true, then I might be one of the two witnesses. I wont and need not be my own spokesman, for what I am those who love God and his word will notice in time and rejoice. What you should do is keep yourself to the Holy Scripture and entreat God to give you eye salve. Then you will see the two witnesses of God.

No, I will not be alive when Jesus returns in person.

May God bless you!

PehJeshua

Dear Shekel,

When did I intimidate people or scream at them? I would like to ask you about something very important. If I have died with Jesus Christ and my life has been replaced by the life of Christ in me, as Scripture tells us about these things, who will then speak in me? Will Christ speak in me in the morning and the Devil in the evening? Doesnt Scripture tell us that God has changed it all and that His children are new creatures, even without blemish?

Of course, if I have stumbled to say or write contrary to Scripture I will be happy to be showed in what matter. You are therefore welcome to point out the things in which I lapsed. If you judge, let your judgement be a just one, for with what measure you measure you will yourself be measured.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Long ago I decided to put away high and lofty religious talk and to simply speak the truth as I understand it as plainly as possible, and without any pretense.

But you are trying to tell others that you are one of the two witnesses without coming out and saying it plainly. You have lingered on this subject of the two witnesses the past 100 posts here because you are dear to your own heart and you think that you are one of them.

Dear Shekel,

I have written about these things that so many people wonder about and showed them what Scripture reveals to all who honestly search it. What I am is not the point but what it is in Scripture that I have deviated from, in your opinion. I guess that all honest readers at this forum are interested in hearing your scripture-based arguments that might show me to be in error. If you havent any, why judge me then?

You wrote this:



My answer:
Really, am I wrong at many points? In 2 Tim 3:16 we read that "all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work," and at another place we are also advised to speak in accordance with Scripture. Therefore I am interested in hearing what these many points are at which I am wrong. In 1 John 3:9 and 5:18 we read that a person who has been born of God "sinneth not", so knowing about sin and remaining in it is devilish, and cannot be the way of a man or woman of God.

You wrote:


My answer:
What are you attributing to me? First you speak harsly to me for good measures, then you say that I will not listen, for I am deceived. Really, your 'Christian way' astonishes me, for how can I listen if you dont first show in what things I have erred and am deceived? Wow, I have even sinned publicly and must be rebuked publicly - but still without having the right to hear what you have got against me.

You wrote:


My answer:
Listen, would I have been judged haughty if I had talked in the apostolic way of John (1 John 4:6:

"We are from God. WHOEVER KNOWS GOD LISTENS TO US. WHOEVER IS NOT FROM GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO US. IN THIS WAY WE DISTINGUISH THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH FROM THE SPIRIT OF ERROR."

For sure, if the apostle had said this to people of today they would balk at it and dismiss him as a haughty person. Dont you think so?

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

The olive trees are, and have always been, Hebrews. When Paul talks about Christians being grafted in as wild olive trees, he means spiritually. If you do a simple word search on the word "olive," you will find the truth. In fact, the Church has gone home to dress for her wedding to the Bridegroom, at this point. We are, virtually, in the Spirit with John, witnessing what must take place after the Laodicean church has been vomitted out of Our Risen Lord's Mouth. No true understanding of Scripture can happen without knowing when the Kingdom Gospel gave way to the Grace Gospel... is this your trouble, PJ? Because your forthtelling is seriously flawed.

PJ, your words are in quotes:

"When the time came for the Lamb to start opening the seals of the scrolls, as Rev 5:7 reveals, he actually descended spiritually into the heart of a human being on this earth..."

False! The Holy Spirit is the only Member of the Triune Godhead Who is ever said to inhabit fallen human flesh... and only then because of the doctrine of imputed justification.

"...for the beast of Rev 13 would make war against the saints and prevail over them..."

This is about that multitude who have believed God because of the testimony of the 144K.

"If you read Isa 66:6-8 you will see that it is the Word (Zion)..."

This is about the rebirth of the Nation of Israel. (I have no idea why you think that the Word and Zion are one and the same.)

"... he is called 'man child' in Rev 12:6..."

This Scripture is about Jesus Christ, and the woman is Israel.

"Well, this man child is the one speaking in Dan 8:13 and Dan 12:7..."

Not in Daniel 8:13, he is not; however, Jesus Christ speaks in Daniel 10-12. The personal pressence of the Glorified God Jesus ALWAYS causes a death-like sleep in humans.

"... if there is anything wrong and contrary to Scripture in what I have expounded here, then I am not a witness, but if what I have told everybody here is true, then I might be one of the two witnesses."

As you have said, PJ.

Dear Spooky.

Let me comment on what you say:



My answer:
Did you consider what 1 Cor 15:45 reveals to us? Let me quote the verse for you:

"So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

Since Jesus Christ has become a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT we can easily understand what he means in Rev 3:20:

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I WILL COME IN TO HIM, AND WILL SUP WITH HIM, AND HE WITH ME."

There can be no doubt that if Jesus comes to us, he comes as a LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT, and when that spirit sups with the believer it definitely doesnt do that but INSIDE the believer. I did not say that the Lamb Jesus would come down into the messenger's heart as a literal lamb but as the spirit. Even though he is bodily in heaven at the right side of the Father he can at the same time be the life-giving spirit in believers on earth. KJV: John 3:13:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which IS in heaven." (Said while Jesus still was on earth)

You wrote:


My answer:
No, you are wrong again! The beast of Rev 13 comes in the time of 3rd trumpet and rules until the end of the time of the 5th trumpet. Since the 144000 sealed people will be those who believe in the testimony of the two witnesses BEFORE the great tribulation (in the beginning of the time of the sixth trumpet), whereas the great multitude are those who will believe AFTER the great tribulation, after the destruction of the beast, you are completely wrong.

You wrote:


My answer:
The reason is that there was a man child born (Isa 66:7; Rev 12:5), and this man child is mentioned in Isa 11:10 in connection with Gentiles. Why so? Because the time period of the Gentiles (6th trumpet) is still running when the man child is born. And will you deny the biblical fact in Isa 66:8 that IT WAS ZION THAT BROUGHT FORTH THIS MAN CHILD. In Heb 12:22 mount Zion is said to be the City of the living God, namely the foundation of the Holy Scripture. Can there be any doubt?

You wrote:



My answer:
Read Rev 1:1 and realize that the book of Revelation which came after the birth and life of Jesus reveals things that had not come but would soon happen. Therefore you are wrong. The man child is NOT Jesus but the one who will sit with Jesus on his throne (Rev 3:21).

You wrote:


My answer:
You miss the point that the angel in Dan 8:13 and Dan 12:6 is the one and same person, and actually giving the same answer: 'unto 2300 evenings and mornings' and "for a time, times and an half", and that that answer is related to the beast of Rev 13 and the falling-away over which the man child would prevail. That is why it is said that "the vision pertains to many days hence." None of the disciples were ever given such answers by Jesus as '2300 evenings and mornings' and 'for a time, times and an half". On the contrary, when his disciples asked Jesus about approximately the same thing as the saint in Dan 8:13, they were instead given the following answer (Acts 1:6-7):

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

This shows that the saint who answered was some other person than Jesus himself, namely the man child.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

If l remember correctly... there have been others that have passed this way believing themselves to be one of the witnesses. I had to do a lot of checking...One was a women. Another had come out of the desert to make his plea and when rebuked he huffed back into the desert to fix us.

And for some strange reason l don't think the two witnesses would be here talking on the forum.

Dear Miki,

So are we implying that whoever come they will soon be forced to huff away, having been given short shrift by the majority of people?

In fact, that will be pretty much in accordance with what Scripture says, namely that only a trickle of people will believe the true two witnesses of God to be what they really are. Even though the Devil sends many impostors that are revealed to be liars it will be a far too drastic way of behaviour to rebuff all for good measures, in case they be false. Scripture gives us a better and more reliable way of knowing who is true, namely by paying heed to Scripture and prayer.

Well, you dont think they would be talking here, so I suppose you are convinced that you would easily notice the two witnesses if you heard their message? If so, then you actually believe that you will be 1 in 41665 to know for sure when you meet the two witnesses. Remember that the wrath over mankind is so great that only 144.000 of 6000.000.000 people will be sealed before the destruction sets in.

I advise you to be very careful as to the ways of the two witnesses and rather place your trust in what God and His true word reveals.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

I haven't read most of your posts. I'm just saying that many people have come through the forum believing themselves to be one of the two witness. This particular one went off in huff after being exposed.

I don't feel drawn to your posts...I'm not sure why but have only read a few. You are hard to follow. There's something missing? But there are still things missing in me too. Pieces yet to be found. I pray you are completed in Christ as well as all he draws to himself. In fact! He says he won't loose a single one of His.

Dear Spooky,

There is no Kingdom gospel vsa the Grace Gospel, for God's gospel is ONE. There are no two gospels. What do you mean by "your forthtelling is seriously flawed"? What I tell is based on Scripture. If not, show me where I dont stand on biblical ground in Scripture.

In fact, the sealing messenger of God has gone out and is now sending out his rays to kill falsehood.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Ok, the reference for what t I am going to say here is the Book of Zechariah.

And the picture here is this.

Just as Yawah took a rib from the side of Adam and fashioned him a help mate who was Eve. Yawah took a branch from the olive tree which is Israel and fashioned the Bride of Christ which is the Body of Christ. Christ is from the true vine and the root and offspring of David, and He is the rib that the other olive tree is made of.

The other olive tree then is the Body of Christ and so two olive branches reach to the candlestick and feed it with oil. And the two witnesses in the earth through the ages are Israel and the Body of Christ. Both pump up the oil of the Spirit from within them through a deposit of the living word inside them and thus their prayers in the ages and their inner faith has kept the light burning.

So go and read the Book of Zechariah and learn the truth once and for all about the two winesses in the earth. Man I just do not understand how all of this stuff I tell you can go unnoticed. A prophet of old is amongst you and you are blind.

Dan

This is the Biblical ground of the nature of the two covenants: Isaiah 42 : 6, 49 : 8; Hebrews 8 : 6-7, 9-10, 13; 9 : 1, 15; 10 : 29; 13 : 20; Galatians 4 : 21-5 : 4. Read them within the context, and with all humility, and perhaps you may have your mind changed by the God Who has written this new covenant in His Own Blood, and sealed it with His Holy Spirit.

Dear Daniel Jackson,

The two olive trees symbolize the two time periods of God's true church, first in the Gentile world in the time of the 6th trumpet, then in historical Israel in the time of the 7th trumpet. What the two olive trees mean I will enlarge on when I return from my job trip. Then I will comment on the rest of what you write. You should be careful not to mix up prophetic things as you do, but that I will return to when I am back.

By the way, Zechariah is well-know to me, as are the other prophets, so their testimonies are not a closed realm to me.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Dear Spooky,

Why dont you take into consideration what Zech 11:10-13 and Zech 11:14 reveal when compared? Both staffs belong in NT time, and the first one is Jesus. Who is the second staff then, which is called Bands, and why Bands?

I will be away on a work trip so I wont be here to answer or comment until I am back again, but think about these things, then you will learn the right things about God's dispensations and covenants istead of mixing everything. That is my piece of advice for you!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Zechariah, or Daniel?

My answer:
Dear Daniel,
Dont you realize that you are in direct opposition to the apostle Paul with that doctrine of yours? On reading Rom 11:17 we see that the apostle explains that the Gentile believers are grafted in among the others (of Jewish extraction), into the same olive tree, that is Jesus. Dont mix this with what is said about the olive tree in Jeremiah II:15-16, which is, in its spiritual meaning, all about the falling-away in NT. By your theory you seperate Jesus Christ from historical Israel, and that is wrong. Jesus Christ is the olive tree and its branches are both Gentiles and Jews, so there is just one olive tree.

You wrote:


My answer:
The two olive trees in Zechariah 4 are the two witnesses of God that are mentioned in Rev 11:3. The gold lampstand is the true church that God establishes anew through his messenger, the man child, after the falling-away is come to an end. The bowl at the top of the lampstand is in historical meaning Jesus Christ, who is the head of the church, but in spiritual meaning it is the man child, while the oil is Jesus Christ, the life-giving spirit. Since the two olive trees are two people, namely the two witnesses of Rev 11:3, they are also called 'olive brancehes' in Zech 4:11, for they are grafted into Jesus Christ, the true olive tree of God. Remember that there is just one tree of life, and that is Jesus. In spite of that biblical fact Rev 22:2 reveals that:

"On each side of the river stood THE TREE OF LIFE, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month."

In like manner are the two witnesses likened to two olive trees, even though it is Jesus himself who is God's ONE and ONLY OLIVE TREE, and his witnesses branches of this olive tree.

Well, Zech 4 tells us that there are also two gold pipes that pour out golden oil. These pipes are two prophets that God will send, so together the two witnesses and these two prophets will be the four living creatures (cherubim) of God in the NT, especially after the great tribulation.

You wrote:


My answer:
What do you really mean? Are you telling me that you know some secret that is important for others to know, and that I dont know it? I guess you are saying that, that is why I asked you to explain to me the secret of Zech 11:14. By doing so you will show me and all of us that you are a God-sent person, wont you?

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Dear Miki,

Yes, I am hard to follow but is it my fault? Do I talk like a confused person, or do I talk according to Scripture? You say there is something missing, so I will ask if you find that 'something' elsewhere?

If Jesus says that he wont loose a single one of his, I wonder if you ever compared that with Matthew 24:24:

"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—IF THAT WERE POSSIBLE."

But why is it not possible that the elect be deceived? I dare say that it is impossible because they have paid heed to Scripture and through it died away from the dominion of sin in their flesh, and Jesus Christ thus become their life-giving spirit!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Just because one has consecrated themselves to the Lord does not mean that they cannot be deceived.

On the contrary, upon total consecration and committment they are at that very point the most vulnerable because, being inexperienced to spiritual warefare, they can easily become prey to deceiving spirits in their new-found zeal to obey at all costs.

But the Lord is greater then he that is in the world, and will He deliver you pehJesus.

And once they are rooted and grounded and established through these many trials that they must endure, to humble and teach them, then they are largely impervious to error, but not totally. And that can take many years.

Dear Shekel,

That I can agree to!

May God help you on the way!

PehJeshua

Enoch and Elijah.

The 2 witnesses are corporate....not literal...read in the Spirit and get off the Letter!

The man-child, Jesus, called the twelve out as a corporate body of two witnesses in training, in the first 3-1/2 years just as the end time man-child will. (Mk.6:7) And he calleth unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two…. From then on they were called Apostles. In Acts, which represented the second 3-1/2 years, they were two corporate witnesses. Before Matthias replaced Judas as a witness the eleven were there and ten were paired up. (Acts 1:13) And when they were come in, they went up into the upper chamber, where they were abiding; both Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas [the son] of James. Although some of these were not heard from in the Bible again, in instances too many to enumerate they continued this habit of going out as a corporate body of two witnesses. Although not counted among the twelve witnesses, later Apostles also went out “by two and two” in Acts, 14:14; 15:40; 16:25. Even when Paul sometimes appeared to be alone, Luke, who wrote Acts, was a silent partner modestly chronicling his acts (Col.4:14; 2Tim.4:11; Phm.1:24). Paul was among twelve other Apostles identified in the New Testament when the Greek word apostolos is translated “apostle” instead of “messenger” as it is elsewhere. Sometimes there were more than two in a company. Although rarely mentioned, sometimes the Apostles took wives with them as some of the latter-day witnesses will. (1Cor.9:5) Have we no right to lead about a wife that is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles….

The twelve Apostles including Matthias were called “witnesses,” which is from the Greek word martus, and in English is “martyrs”. As a type for the end times, these also raised up other Apostles and elders, many of which were not martyred. Jesus also sent out elders “two and two” to preach the good news of the kingdom, many of which were not martyred. (Lk.10:1) Now after these things the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself was about to come. If you multiply the 144,000 man-child by 70 you get 10,080,000. The twelve and the seventy were sent as a corporate body of two in the first 3-1/2 years. Moses also, as a type of the man-child, sent out the twelve princes of the tribes in Numbers 13:2,3 and the seventy elders to the people in Numbers 11:16,17. Notice also that the corporate body of two elders also went everywhere Jesus was “about to come.” Jesus is about to come to the whole world. (Mt.24:27) For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man. Foreshadowing this, the Apostles preached the gospel in the native tongues of Jews gathered for Pentecost from “every nation under heaven” (Acts 2:5-11). The end time two witnesses are members of the “holy city” that is worldwide and as such they will witness to the whole Babylonish world in order to fulfill the great commission. Jesus said to His disciples (Mt.5:14) Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. David and Jesus are prominent types of the end time corporate man-child who rule from the throne but the witnesses are members of the “holy city” that we shall see will be “tread under foot forty-two months” or 3-1/2 years. After the twelve witnesses and the seventy elders, the ranks of the disciples, including Gentiles, grew throughout the book of Acts as many were raised up to spread the news “two and two” in a type of the second 3-1/2 years of the tribulation.

The 2 witnesses go out with the anointing of Moses, Elijah and confront the Harlot and the Beast JUST AS Elijah did in 1 Kings 18 to Ahab and Jezebel-Asherah and Baal

Moses confronted the gods of Egypt and Pharaoh...the 2 witnesses will do the same all over the world in the end times....and they will be killed for a period of 3.5 years and be seen by all.....they will be raised in the resurrection of the righteous dead at the Lord's return.

Dear BrotherJon,

What you write in the following is merely fallacious and totally against the Bible. You are definitely going astray with that doctrine!

You wrote:


My answer:
Are you reading the word of God in the Spirit? No, you aren't, for since you posit - even against Scripture -that the two witnesses will, after having been dead for 3.5 years, be raised in the resurrection of the righteous dead at the Lord's return, you are speaking in accordance to your own flesh, not in the Holy Spirit. The two witnesses die in the time period of the 6th trumpet and seal, with one more trumpet and seal to follow, namely the 7th trumpet and seal. Well, since the time period of the 6th trumpet and seal will last for 1260 years, as will also the time period of the 7th trumpet and seal, there is no possibility that Jesus Christ will return after 3,5 years in the time period of the 6th trumpet and seal. Jesus returns ON THE VERY LAST DAY, remember that! You are completely wrong and therefore only writing according to your own flesh, without guidance by the Spirit. That is for sure!

You wrote:


My answer:
When Jesus was born as a man and preached to mankind, he was called 'Son of Man', not 'man child', for the latter designation was to be used about a specific person in the future. Naturally, for the Book of Revelation was not yet written, and when it finally came it foretold future things, not things that had been. Read Rev 1:1 and be convinced about that! You are making figments about biblical secrets, mixing up the person of Jesus with the man child. They are not the same in historical sense, and that you will see if you compare the Branch of Isa 11:1 with him that 'overcometh' according to Rev 3:21. The Branch grows out of the ROOTS OF THE ROD (Jesus Christ) and is therefore the one who will overcome the Beast of Rev 13 and become the Bands of Zech 11:14, who binds Satan in Rev 20:1-2, and thus will be entitled to sit with Christ on his throne. But understand this, that this is all in the spiritual sense of the text, for on the very last day nobody but Jesus Christ himself will be sitting on his throne to judge.

When you venture to say that the twelve apostles was the two witnesses as a corporate body, you are saying too much and too little. The Law and the Gospel are the two witnesses in spiritual sense, but in the historical sense of the text of Rev 11 the two witnesses are TWO SPECIFIC PERSONS that God calls to become His witnesses to a totally fallen-away mankind. That is why there were two cherubim at each end of the mercy seat in the Most Holy of the temple.

You wrote:


My answer:
Hold on! The apostles were called 'witnesses' but never 'the two witnesses'. The rest of your story is just your own fleshly figments without any basis in Scripture.

You wrote:


My answer:
The 144000 sealed people have got nothing whatsoever to do with the number 70, so your calculation is just a fallacy. The right way of calculating the number of the sealed 144000 people must be according to "human measure" which also is 'angelic measure', and it must be remembered that the whole City of New Jerusalem is in the form of a cube, with its height exactly the same as its length and breadth. The height of the wall, that was 144 cubits, therefore designates the 12 apostles, who also are the foundation of the wall. Each of them is a precious stone in the form of a cube, one cubit high, wide and long, so together they are 144 cubits whether you measure the height, length or breadth of the wall. Together the apostles make up these three dimensions, whether you look for height, bredth or length. Well, since they also represent the twelve tribes of Israel, they are the foundation on which the firstfruits of believers will build their faith and doctrine in the the beginning of the 6th trumpet's and seal's time. And since they have the one and same faith and doctrine of God they are true and living stones in the building, making up the same height as they do the other dimensions. And 12000 x 12 gives us the number of 144000. So, you should now see what it really means that the city is in the form of a cube. The cube is the body of Jesus Christ, with equal sides. There is no such number involved as you come up with: 10,080,000. Take care in order that you do not contradict Scripture as you has done hitherto!

You wrote:


My answer:
You got it wrong once again! No, when the two witnesses come there will only be a fallen-away Christian church on earth and definitely no worldwide true church. If the Christian church of today had been true there would be no need for God to send other witnesses. The true church would do! It is said about Zerubabel, who symbolizes one of the two witnesses, that he will lay the foundation! So, they don't come to a worldwide church but to a fallen-away church. And don't you know that the time period of the 6th trumpet and seal is in the midst of NT time, as can be seen from Habakkuk 3:2 of the Hebrew text? Roughly, the latter part of NT time will be what is called the Millennium. God's work 'in the midst of years' means that God will judge Antichrist approximately in the midst of NT time.

You wrote:


My answer:
I compare what you tell here with what you wrote earlier, namely that "Jesus is about to come to the whole world. (Mt.24:27) For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man." This is wrong, for Jesus is not yet coming in person, since we live in the midst of NT time whereas Jesus Christ will come on THE VERY LAST DAY.

I will advise you to read in the Spirit instead of making up things on your carnal instigation!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

PehJeshua

what this is talking about is those who are living spiritually know they will die physically but the dead in spirit dont even know that. they know but their heart does not percieve they are dead they live like they cannot die. even though they are here on earth their actions are not a contribution because their works are dead. (i think this is talking about those who will never come to Christ.)

although i believe and agree with you pehJeshua that those who are dead physically will not return

Pro 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What [is] His name, and what [is] His Son's name, If you know?
Jhn 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, [that is], the Son of Man who is in heaven.*

now we know that Elijah did ascend in a chariot but in heaven where revelation talks about the saints who have died for Christ await the rest of the body. For the word says that by no means will they be made perfect without 'us' the Lord however stated in John 3:13 is the Only one who has ascended to (H)eaven note paul talks about the 3rd heaven so we know there are 3.

i believe that prov and john show a spiritual rule that there is ONLY One who is permitted to pass both ways.

Rev 6:9-11 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed

Hbr 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Hbr 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

no one can enter Heaven without being perfect so Elijah did not ascend into the same heaven Jesus did. because those who have served the Lord but are in heaven are waiting for us all to be made perfect together.
so proverbs and John 3:!3 "say" the only ONe who has ascended is also the only one who has and can Descend.

Just because one has consecrated themselves to the Lord does not mean that they cannot be deceived.

On the contrary, upon total consecration and committment they are at that very point the most vulnerable because, being inexperienced to spiritual warefare, they can easily become prey to deceiving spirits in their new-found zeal to obey at all costs.

But the Lord is greater then he that is in the world, and will He deliver you pehJesus.

And once they are rooted and grounded and established through these many trials that they must endure, to humble and teach them, then they are largely impervious to error, but not totally. And that can take many years.
[/quote]

Good post Shekel. Sampson knows a bit about this. He was consecrated from day one but seemed more like a firebrand pulled from the fire when we look at his actions. But by faith he was saved and brought down the enemy on his last day!

Enoch and Elijah are most liley the two witnesses. From the studies I have heard preflood man was twice the height man is now. So Enoch will probably be around 12 FT While Elijah will be half his height. They have found bones of men 12 to 16 Feete tall.

Dear Jeff Joseph,

Why dont people like you respect Scripture and take it into account instead of making up fictitious explanations on these important things? Go and read Eccl 9 and be convinced that no person will ever return to this world after having left it, and compare what you read with Heb 11. Don't be silly!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

I'm sorry but Jesus died and went to hell and took the keys away from the devil and came back to Earth before he ascended the the father. and will finally comeback for good after Armogedon. If your suppose to be a Christian why the additude?

(Rev.11:8) And their dead body lies in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. Babylon is identified as spiritual Sodom. (Isa.13:19) And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

A footnote in the Zondervan Received Text says this word is “body”. The numeric pattern proves the Greek word for body, carcass, or corpse is authentic: Thus corporate

(9) And from among the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations do [men] look upon their dead body (singular for the same reasons as above) three days and a half, and suffer not their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. This last usage of “bodies” is correct in all of the manuscripts and numerics. That can only lead us to one conclusion. The witnesses are a “body” of people that is made up of many “bodies”.


read here more about the Two Witnesses: LINK




So BrotherJon is in fact correct.

Dear C,

Be aware of the biblical fact that the two witnesses lie on THE street of the great city, and not in one of the streets of that city. That means that that city too is a spiritual city, like the New Jerusalem that will take its place. Notice that there is ONLY ONE street in the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:21), and that street is narrow to the flesh (Matt 7:14), whereas the street of Babylon is broad (Mat 7:13). Be also aware of the biblical fact that the New Jerusalem is a cube that symbolizes the truth and the 144.000 that are sealed before the great tribulation, which will be in the beginning of the sixth seal's and trumpet's time, that is, approximately in the midst of New Testament time. Be also aware of the biblical fact that this happens in the second half of New Testament time, when the staff BONDS is broken according to Zech 11:14. The first staff was BEAUTY, namely Jesus, who was broken earlier in New Testament time. When the staff BONDS comes, he becomes the man child of Rev 12:5, and a new dispensation begins that excludes all falsehood. The man child is mentioned in Dan 8:13 and Dan 12:5, and he is the holy one speaking, who is above the water and clad in linen. Notice that besides him who speaks there are two other people, one of who asks the important question. This is no group of people but one of the two witnesses of God. They were symbolized in the OT temple by the TWO cherubim who where on the mercy seat of the ark, whereas the ark symbolized Jesus Christ. They are also mentioned by Jesus himself in Mat 20:20-23, so they are not a group of believers, but TWO PERSONS. If the two witnesses symbolize a group, then also the sons of Zebedees would have been sitting with Jesus on either side of him. But that is not given to them.


You also wrote:


My answer:
What makes you believe that the Greek word denotes a group of people and not just the the fleshly part of the two witnesses, thus their flesh shall lie in that ungodly street. Remember that one of the two witnesses is described as Joshua who is said to be clothed with filthy clothes in Zech 3:3, for which he is being accused by Satan. He was the one who was chosen by God to be His high priest, but still he had a flesh that was filthy and accused by Satan. This flesh is in all men, so therefore Joshua also is the cherub with the human face, symbolizing human weaknesses. Naturally, for Scripture says both he and the other witness are clothed in sackcloth, which is not very impressing to the self-righteous world.

You wrote:


My answer:
The meaning of not suffering their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb is also interesting. Why not "to be laid in their tombs (or graves)? Well, when the (works of) flesh is visible in Christians to wordly people, they will say that those persons will not have any peace with God, and they will judge them and not admit them the peace as is mentioned in Rev 14:13: "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that THEY MAY REST from their labours; and their works do follow them." The dead which die in the Lord, is the FLESH, or rather, the SINNERS who die from the dominion of their sins (the FLESH) through faith in Jesus Christ. When that happen, they will be in their graves and have peace. This Scripture talks about two different deaths, the death from sins through faith, and the bodily death after fist having died spiritually, namely from the dominion of sins. But blessed are those who die HEREAFTER, which means according to the true doctrine of the man child.

You wrote:


My answer:
Those who set up that site have no idea of what the secret of the two witnesses is.


With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Dear Jeff Joseph,

You are wrong in believing that Jesus will finally come back after Armageddon. Quite on the contrary, Jesus comes back before Armageddon, but not in person, and that is what is called REGENERATION by Jesus in Matt 19:28.

Be convinced that Jesus will come back in person only on the very last day for the final and great day of judgement. Dont mix things up!

With sorrow in heart

PehJeshua

Dear Jeff Joseph,

You totally wrong, coz Eccl 9 excludes the possibility of Enoch and Elijah being the two witnesses. Preflood man has got nothing to do with this, it is just free human figment. Keep yourself to Scripture instead of fiction!

With sorrow in heart

PehJeshua

Don't let men fool you with vain philosophys. Why do you need to have 10,000 paragraphs to explain something that should be simple? You seem to just take any old scripture in the bible and twist it to mean whatever you say it does. You have no common sence, true common sence comes from God. God made things to be simple and not long drawn out babyling on and on.


I can't find words to describe how twisted your belief syetem is.

Jeff

Dear Jeff Joseph,

Can you please prove your words instead of just flinging out vain assumptions of me! Where did I twist Scripture? Come out of your hole and prove it with Scripture! Is not that a fair thing of me to expect from you?

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

I have bone spurs all along the back of my skull that stab my tendons and I do not have the neck, shoulder strengh to waist my time searching scriptures to satisfy your argumentive spirit. I explained myself to you in the private message I sent you and I know even if God himself told who the two witnesses were you would not listen to him. You are a very cold hearted and how you can be so mean on such a simple issue is far beyond my understanding.

Enoch and Elijah have never died, God took them and has been waiting to use them till the tribulaton. The two witnesses will be killed. The bible says every man must die, so Enoch and Elijah must be the two witnesses because they haven't died yet.

I am like a mirror and if you don't like what I am saying then you don't like yourself, because I reflect what a person puts into me back at them.


Jeff

Dear PehJeshua,

If you are still around i would like to ask some questions. I do not visit here frequently but check now and then and last night i saw some of the things you write.

Firstly, i am not a scholar and do not have an intellectual background, so i cannot research the original text and don't have a grasp of world history. I think i speak perhaps for the simple who don't have sufficient knowledge or recources to verify things said in 'doctrinal debates' section. Yet i have a real interest in the things you share. So please be patient.

Would you please share some regarding your calling by the Lord to speak the things which you speak? Did you see Jesus in vision/revelation where He commisioned you and equipped you? I think you mentioned about eating a book and would like to know if this really happened or is it figuratively? Do you receive spiritual revelation which gives authority that the things which you were taught are the truth without dispute? Please share as i am really interested to know.

Do you think the antichrist(being many and have been here for long) will also be represented by an individual man/woman, before or at the time when the manchild appears?

Do you think that the mark(being spiritually) could also be enforced in a physical way to confirm the condition of those who have it already in a spiritual sense?

If world religions merge and a leader emerges, could this be a representative of the 'false prophet'?

If the current 'church' is totally apostate, how can it(the woman) bring forth a manchild which represents Jesus?

Would it be that the times of 1260 days, even though it represents years in new testament time periods, could also be a time period in actual days being associated with the ministry of the manchild, the 2 witnesses and the 144000?

What is the desired effect of your teachings? What do you hope to acheive? Or rather what is the desire of the Lord in this?

Lastly, i would expect the devil to impersonate the manchild if he is to appear as an individual representative of the Lord. Do you have thoughts on this?

in Him
Francois

While we don't know exactly who the two witnesses will be, I don't believe that they will literally be two biblical figures whose bodies have been sent back to earth. Personally I think that the two witnesses will have the spirit of two biblical figures, much like Elisha got a double portion of Elijah's spirit. If I'm correct, John the B had the spirit of Elijah also. (correct me if i'm wrong)

The "every man must die" or "every man must die once" theory does have its holes. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, who, I am assuming died again. Elijah and Elisha each raised a child from the dead, and the guy who was buried on Elisha's bones (2Ki 13:21) was raised. Then there were -
Luke 7:11-15 Son of the widow Nain
Luke 8:41-42, 49-55 Daughter of Jairus
Acts 9:36-41 Dorcas
Acts 20:9-10 Eutychus
I'm assuming that all these people died for a final time also.

Whoever they are, they shouldn't be too hard to spot when they show up. Of course there will be the false prophet guy doing false miracles, that might muddy things up, lol.

I just looked names up on the net (no heavy research), so feel free to correct if I have said something wrong.

The two witnesses are two regular men or women who the Lord has awakened up out of their sleep and gave them a super hunger to find Him. A hunger far beyond what regular men receive. They are out there right now in the desert fine tuning their faith for their ministry to start.

God will move them into that area towards the end of the great tribulation. By the Power of God The end time saints will cause their camps to cross continents. In few steps. God caused Jonah to enter Nineveh in one morning when the trip should have taken three days. There will be no water in the Oceans and seas at that time only dried hardened and roted blood.


3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the Lord. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, a three-day journey in extent.
4 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day's walk. Then he cried out and said, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"

I am reading this and I am curious PehJeshua, do you think the 2 witnesses are on the earth today? And I also wonder, you sound like and acclaim that G-d has given you manna from heaven and the ability to teach us.....Are you one of the Two Witnesses? Or do I read between the lines?
Looking for a straight answer. Seems like there are a number of people out there right now who call them self "Elijah" and one who says he is "Moses."
I am looking for the Two Witnesses to arrive....the world seems to be ready for them.

Blessings,
Everyeyewillsee



[quote name='PehJeshua' date='Sep 17 2007, 02:31 PM' post='122072']
Dear chrio39,

Your questions are to the point, so I will answer you on the basis of Scripture, for a strange book was given me to eat, but it gave me pain in my stomach, though it was sweet in my mouth. Yes, test its contents and see if it is from God Almighty.

You wrote:
[quote name='chrio39' date='Sep 17 2007, 05:45 PM' post='122063']
PehJeshua,

By your screen name you claim to be the mouthpiece of God. Jeshua/Joshua/Jesus means salvation. You said the God you love or who loves you or something like that sent you to teach those who will listen. These aren't quotes of what you have written, but are nonetheless accurate are they not? [/quote]

My answer:
Yes, PehJeshua means 'the mouth of Joshua' but the words coming through that mouth are those written on the stone having seven eyes. What stone is it if not our Saviour Jesus Christ, and what might the inscription on it be if not the contents of the hidden manna of Rev 2:17?


You wrote:
[quote] The bible tells us to know those who labor among us and by your teaching you do labor. So I ask you to tell us of your faith. You haven't mentioned Jesus that I recall. Do you believe Him to be Equal with God our Father? [/quote]

My answer:
My faith is the everlasting gospel that is mentioned in Rev 14:6. What I say here I do say according to the one and only gospel of God in spite of its being now 'the everlasting gospel'. By that name it was not known in the apostolic time, that is, before the disastrous falling away of the Christian church, for since the church would fall away and thus leave the foundation of truth there would no longer be a church proclaiming the gospel. In that way there came a time of silence with nobody preaching the true gospel, and in that way came the spiritual night which Jesus himself foretold (John 9:4) - in which nobody would be able to work (spiritually). When the true doctrine and seal of the living God comes back to earth through the messenger of God, as seen in Rev 7:2, then comes the gospel back victoriously for evermore, and because of that it is called 'everlasting'. It comes back as the hidden manna revealed to God's messengers, and from that basis will the two witnesses raise their voices. When I talk on these things in truthfulness I do indeed mention Jesus, for he is the Word of God. Shouting 'my Lord, my Lord' is something everybody can do without having any connection to God, whereas telling true things from Scripture is possible only if the talking mouth is part of the gospel.

The answer to your question if I believe that Jesus Christ is equal with God our Father is 'yes', but remember that when Jesus was taken up his body was glorified in becoming part of the Godhead. In this way Psalm 8:4-5 became true.

You wrote:
[quote] We're also warned repeatedly about false teachers. Many of the teachings that you bring are new teachings here and we must be careful when examining them. I can agree with some of what you present, and have a big question mark as to other teachings of yours. [/quote]

My answer:
Yes, new because of the hidden manna that the Lord gave me. Being careful should mean prayer to the Lord and honest contemplation on the basis of Scripture. The big question mark will be reduced to a smaller one if you give yourself time and occasion to find out the true meaning of Scripture as presented here by me.

You wrote:
[/quote] This is common here as well spoken people such as yourself bring 'new' revelation here quite often, and it can be difficult to discern whether or not it is truth, or some mixture of truth and error. [/quote]

My answer:
Yes, it will be difficult especially if sin is allowed to subjugate you and take the place of true obedience to our Saviour. But our Lord will call in the voice of a good shepherd, a voice that permeates all of Scripture. Since this is true a servant of God will also speak in that same voice, and the voice will not be a stranger's voice to the the sheep. They will hear and feel the softness of a caring shepherd and come to the fold.

You quote me as having said this:
And who taught you that Jesus will return in person BEFORE the so-called MILLENNIUM has been on this earth? I tell you, that when you read Isa 65:17-25 you will see that even on the NEW EARTH people will build houses, raise children and die, and this cannot happen if NEW EARTH and NEW HEAVEN meant eternity. Jesus himself has said that after the bodily resurrection (which happens on the VERY LAST DAY) there will not be taken a wife or give a wife, for the spiritual reality has come instead. You also ought to know that the dimensions of the New Jerusalem only symbolizes the 144000 people who come to faith BEFORE the great tribulation. After the tribulation (the third world war) there will be many who realize that the biblical prophecies were true, so they take to faith and become members of God's people on a world that won't anymore experience such a calamity.

My answer:
Yes, these are my words but still I am no Jehovah's witness.

You wrote:
[quote] This is essentially what the Jehovah's witnesses teach. Only 144,000 are saved. Are You Jehova's Witness? (I don't mean a witness of Jehovah, many of us are witnesses for Him) Or are you a member of a group that splintered from them?[/quote]

My answer:
No, this is not what the Jehovah withesses teach, for I say that the 144000 will be people living on this earth. They will not be taken up to heaven to form a governmental body, as falsely taught by the Watchtower Society, for NOBODY will be bodily resurrected until the VERY LAST DAY. That is what our Saviour teaches us, and who has got the right to deny this biblical fact? No, I dont belong to a splintered group of theirs. They do all of them represent false teachings against the Lord's true gospel!

You wrote:
[quote] I'm not calling you a false teacher though I can't abide your saying that only 144,000 come to faith prior to the tribulation, I'm awaiting your reply. [/quote]

My answer:
Listen, in Rev 14:3-4 the following words are said:

"No one could learn the song EXCEPT the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as FIRSTFRUITS to God and the Lamb."

Dont you agree that the word except means that only the 144000 people could learn the mentioned song and by it became the FIRSTFRUITS? If they became the firstfruits then they must be a group that is harvested as such (Rev 14:15-16) in difference from those who will be gathered as clusters of grapes and thrown into the great winepress of God's wrath (Rev 14:19). Those who are spared in the tribulation will be the great multitude of Rev 7:9, as you can see from Rev 7:14. Those who are called and believe BEFORE the tribulation will be FIRSTFRUITS in comparison with those who are called and believe AFTER the tribulation. You should know that there will be no calling or time of grace while the tribulation rages, nor any proclamation of the gospel. No, Jesus clearly shows us in Matthew 24:14 that the true gospel will FIRST be preached, then will come the tribulation which Jesus calls the 'end', namely the end to the worldly powers that have ruled the world up to then with terror.

Well, the good Lord will shorten those days to spare many people, and those people will see afterwards, after having gone through the pangs of tribulation and through great despair, that the good Lord spared them in spite of all, and they will be greatly moved, also remembering what God's two witnesses did proclaim before all these things come true.

Surely, I tell you what Scripture itself reveals, so these words are true indeed.

You wrote:
[quote] May the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ shine upon and through you.
[/quote]

My answer:
If I am a witness of God then it cannot be otherwise. Look, I put my words into the scales for you to find out if I am speaking true things from Scripture. May God bless you to see and live!

With a caring heart in all humbleness
PehJeshuah
[/quote]

I always find it comical when someone like PehJeshua comes to a forum and writes in OT speak, lol. He sounds a bit like St. Paul in his letters no? Lol. PehJeshua, please dump the OT vernacular. We DO live in the 21st century you know (still cracking up over this). You sound like another of the oh so many self-proclaimed "messengers" sent to us by God. I see something Entirely different in your attitude. 0_o

In 21st century speak... check urself...

Respect

Wow, I am going to throw in my two cents here (or sense) and say a couple of things. Number one, PJ, I see you rather enjoy weilding a sword and cutting up everyone to pieces and I am sure you will attempt to do the same to me, but hear me out.....You are very defensive and have an "agenda". You said you ate a book....Hmmm.

((Hey, ya'll, i am new this sight, what a way to enter in, HUH!?))

PJ-----Who are you? what was 'this book' you ate? I just read this whole thread (LOL) and quite frankly you make a lot of reference to some teachings that I know many messianic jews teach, which isn't all wrong in my mind, and some areas are gray BUT I am of the belief that anyone and everyone is entitled to their opinion and even their agendas.
What my question is "WHO ARE YOU?" You are talking down to everyone as if they are lost and without the Holy Spirit. And You got all the answers? Tell us about the book you ate, please, I am curious!!

These are your brothers and sisters....not your enemies. Have you forgotten that this site is full of Believers in Y'shua?

Jesus Christ is Lord here PJ.

Much of what I read is loaded with your own self righteousness that you answer by. And Unfortunately it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to repeat any of this.

I was looking for a good healthy discussion on the Two Witnesses and all you can do is spiritually body slam anyone who has anything to say, MY GOSH PJ, you even add insult to those who attempt to agree with you!!
What's your problem?? Again, who are you or who do you say you are?

You can sure talk the talk with all the intellectual and scholarly discussion and articulate writings, even quoting scriptures and making many historical references to back what you say, but what gets me...is you are almost implying that you alone carry this message.

So answer my question....I am an inquiring mind here, are you Elijah? Moses? Enoch? Who do you imply you are or are you just a man on a mission kicking over what you consider to be sacred cows with an agenda?
We deserve answers and most of all, YOU OWE 'SOME' HERE APOLOGIES for how you have handled answering them. Having what you consider "Insight and Revelation" doesn't give you the place to cut, slay and slam everyone that writes in this thread.

Suggestion: Write a book and quite attacking everyone on what they write. It is how you answer each and everyone that show you have not the Love of Y'shua. And you sign with "Sorrow of Heart" ???!!! POOH POOH......How sad and you have really set your self up to be kicked to the curb.

**When you get on a high horse and fall....it's gonna hurt. You are alone not because you believe that "G-d has hand picked you" for this special message you acclaim to proclaim. I will go as far to say if you gain followers of your doctrine with how you handle people and speak to them in this manner---you are terribly dangerous to G-d's children and the message of Truth twisting it to your own liking.

If you are next going to imply that you are a remnant of any sort and feel like you are at the top (wow, it's lonley at the top) then let me sound an alarm and blow a trumpet for you and wake you up to massive deception!! RED FLAGS PEOPLE....Beware of this kind of so called believer!! They always have a message that no one else has or 'gets'. And in PJ's mind we are off the course. He is only hear to insult you...nothing more. He wants to show you how much he knows....he doesn't care to have a good healthy discussion!

I recommend that everyone not waste your time on this thread any longer unless you like to argue and be ugly. I want to have a good healthy and informative talk about the two witnesses, so lets start a new one where we can interact and share insight that is fruitful.

This thread is "DEAD" and stinks to high heaven because it doesn't bear fruit. You are standing alone PJ. You think this is the HOLINESS of G-d by isolating your self and going about G-d's business this way?

Being separate is not being all alone....Being separate is 'coming out from among them' and shaking off doctrines. You are full of your own doctrines. I would have no problem with 'differences' but your answers are to harm and you tend to be verbally abusive. Hurting people hurt people. Go get help and quit stabbing your brothers and sister. You can't win people over to your way of thinking when you stab them to the heart and salt them with your insults. I discuss doctrines with different people all the time but we don't insult each other.

Hope you get some Help PJ...I really mean it. Don't waste your time trying to insult me and pick me apart. You have already proven you enjoy isolation. Heaven will be full of Believers and I am sure you will figure it out eventually...We must LOVE each other over, to win them over. That's my two cents which makes alot more sense ---to move on now and start a new thread on the subject of "two witnesses".

Sincerely,
Everyeyewillsee

Lol, good post EveryEye. I'm glad someone else see's through this guy's (insert whatever you want here, lol) He's an internet Super Apostle in his own mind. Dime a dozen. I'm sure he has no ministry other than the keyboard in front of his PC.

Ok, time to vomit. lol.

I see that peh is speaking nonsense again.

Perhaps it is time to move on peh. No one believes your foolishness.

We got backup from Admin! There is a God after all! lol.