Isa 4:1 And seven women (seven churches of Rev)) shall take hold of one man (Jesus) in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread,(We do not want the Unleavened Bread, we will eat our own doctrine) and wear our own apparel:(we will not wear the righteousness of Christ through faith, but our own righteousness through works) only let us be called by thy name;(Please just let us use Your Name, Jesus , so that they can call us Christians) take thou away our reproach.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of Jehovah (man child) be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. (for those of the church who have escaped from Babylon, the wolves, and have returned unto the true Unleavened Bread: Jesus , the Word of God)2Ki 19:30 And the remnant that is escaped (from Babylon )of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

Matthew Henry Commentary on Isaiah 4 Chapter 4

In this chapter we have, I. A threatening of the paucity and scarceness of man (v. 1), which might fitly enough have been added to the close of the foregoing chapter, to which it has a plain reference. II. A promise of the restoration of Jerusalem’s peace and purity, righteousness and safety, in the days of the Messiah (v. 2-6). Thus, in wrath, mercy is remembered, and gospel grace is a sovereign relief, in reference to the terrors of the law and the desolations made by sin.

Isa 4:1

It was threatened (ch. 3:25) that the mighty men should fall by the sword in war, and it was threatened as a punishment to the women that affected gaiety and a loose sort of conversation. Now here we have the effect and consequence of that great slaughter of men, 1. That though Providence has so wisely ordered that, communibus annis—on an average of years, there is nearly an equal number of males and females born into the world, yet, through the devastations made by war, there should scarcely be one man in seven left alive. As there are deaths attending the bringing forth of children, which are peculiar to the woman, who was first in transgression, so, to balance that, there are deaths peculiar to men, those by the sword in the high places of the field, which perhaps devour more than child-bed does. Here it is foretold that such multitudes of men should be cut off that there should be seven women to one man. 2. That by reason of the scarcity of men, though marriage should be kept up for the raising of recruits and the preserving of the race of mankind upon earth, yet the usual method of it should be quite altered,—that, whereas men ordinarily make their court to the women, the women should now take hold of the men, foolishly fearing (as Lot’s daughters did, when they saw the ruin of Sodom and perhaps thought it reached further than it did) that in a little time there would be none left (Gen. 19:31),—that whereas women naturally hate to come in sharers with others, seven should now, by consent, become the wives of one man,—and that whereas by the law the husband was obliged to provide food and raiment for his wife (Ex. 21:10), which with many would be the most powerful argument against multiplying wives, these women will be bound to support themselves; they will eat bread of their own earning, and wear apparel of their own working, and the man they court shall be at no expense upon them, only they desire to be called his wives, to take away the reproach of a single life. They are willing to be wives upon any terms, though ever so unreasonable; and perhaps the rather because in these troublesome times it would be a kindness to them to have a husband for their protector. Paul, on the contrary, thinks the single state preferable in a time of distress, 1 Co. 7:26. It were well if this were not introduced here partly as a reflection upon the daughters of Zion, that, notwithstanding the humbling providences they were under (ch. 3:18), they remained unhumbled, and, instead of repenting of their pride and vanity, when God was contending with them for them, all their care was to get husbands—that modesty, which is the greatest beauty of the fair sex, was forgotten, and with them the reproach of vice was nothing to the reproach of virginity, a sad symptom of the irrecoverable desolations of virtue.

Isa 4:2-6

By the foregoing threatenings Jerusalem is brought into a very deplorable condition: every thing looks melancholy. But here the sun breaks out from behind the cloud. Many exceedingly great and precious promises we have in these verses, giving assurance of comfort which may be discerned through the troubles, and of happy days which shall come after them, and these certainly point at the kingdom of the Messiah, and the great redemption to be wrought out by him, under the figure and type of the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem by the reforming reign of Hezekiah after Ahaz and the return out of their captivity in Babylon; to both these events the passage may have some reference, but chiefly to Christ. It is here promised, as the issue of all these troubles,

I. That God will raise up a righteous branch, which shall produce fruits of righteousness (v. 2): In that day, that same day, at that very time, when Jerusalem shall be destroyed and the Jewish nation extirpated and dispersed, the kingdom of the Messiah shall be set up; and then shall be the reviving of the church, when every one shall fear the utter ruin of it.

1. Christ himself shall be exalted. He is the branch of the Lord, the man the branch; it is one of prophetical names, my servant the branch (Zec. 3:8; 6:12), the branch of righteousness (Jer. 23:5; 33:15), a rod out of the stem of Jesse and a branch out of his roots (ch. 11:1), and this, as some think, is alluded to when he is called a Nazarene, Mt. 2:23. Here he is called the branch of the Lord, because planted by his power and flourishing to his praise. The ancient Chaldee paraphrase here reads it, The Christ, or Messiah, of the Lord. He shall be the beauty, and glory, and joy. (1.) He shall himself be advanced to the joy set before him and the glory which he had with the Father before the world was. He that was a reproach of men, whose visage was marred more than any man’s, is now, in the upper world, beautiful and glorious, as the sun in his strength, admired and adored by angels. (2.) He shall be beautiful and glorious in the esteem of all believers, shall gain an interest in the world, and a name among men above every name. To those that believe he is precious, he is an honour (1 Pt. 2:7), the fairest of ten thousand (Cant. 5:10), and altogether glorious. Let us rejoice that he is so, and let him be so to us.

2. His gospel shall be embraced. The success of the gospel is the fruit of the branch of the Lord; all the graces and comforts of the gospel spring from Christ. But it is called the fruit of the earth because it sprang up in this world and was calculated for the present state. And Christ compares himself to a grain of wheat, that falls into the ground and dies, and so brings forth much fruit, Jn. 12:24. The success of the gospel is represented by the earth’s yielding her increase (Ps. 67:6), and the planting of the Christian church is God’s sowing it to himself in the earth, Hos. 2:23. We may understand it of both the persons and the things that are the products of the gospel: they shall be excellent and comely, shall appear very agreeable and be very acceptable to those that have escaped of Israel, to that remnant of the Jews which was saved from perishing with the rest in unbelief, Rom. 11:5. Note, If Christ be precious to us, his gospel will be so and all its truths and promises—his church will be so, and all that belong to it. These are the good fruit of the earth, in comparison with which all other things are but weeds. It will be a good evidence to us that we are of the chosen remnant, distinguished from the rest that are called Israel, and marked for salvation, if we are brought to see a transcendent beauty in Christ, and in holiness, and in the saints, the excellent ones of the earth. As a type of this blessed day, Jerusalem, after Sennacherib’s invasion and after the captivity in Babylon, should again flourish as a branch, and be blessed with the fruits of the earth. Compare ch. 37:31, 32. The remnant shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward. And if by the fruit of the earth here we understand the good things of this life, we may observe that these have peculiar sweetness in them to the chosen remnant, who, having a covenant—right to them, have the most comfortable use of them. If the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious in our eyes, even the fruit of the earth also will be excellent and comely, because then we may take it as the fruit of the promise, Ps. 37:16; 1 Tim. 4:8.

II. That God will reserve to himself a holy seed, v. 3. When the generality of those that have a place and a name in Zion and in Jerusalem shall be cut off as withered branches, by their own unbelief, yet some shall be left. Some shall remain, some shall still cleave to the church, when its property is altered and it has become Christian; for God will not quite cast off his people, Rom. 11:1. There is here and there one that is left. Now, 1. This is a remnant according to the election of grace (as the apostle speaks, Rom. 11:5), such as are written among the living, marked in the counsel and fore-knowledge of God for life and salvation, written to life (so the word is), designed and determined for it unalterably; for "what I have written I have written.’’ Those that are kept alive in killing dying times were written for life in the book of divine Providence; and shall we not suppose those who are rescued from a greater death to be such as were written in the Lamb’s book of life? Rev. 13:8. As many as were ordained unto eternal life believed to the salvation of the soul, Acts 13:48. Note, All that were written among the living shall be found among the living, every one; for of all that were given to Christ he will lose none. 2. It is a remnant under the dominion of grace; for every one that is written among the living, and is accordingly left, shall be called holy, shall be holy, and shall be accepted of God accordingly. Those only that are holy shall be left when the Son of man shall gather out of his kingdom every thing that offends; and all that are chosen to salvation are chosen to sanctification. See 2 Th. 2:13; Eph. 1:4.

III. That God will reform his church and will rectify and amend whatever is amiss in it, v. 4. Then the remnant shall be called holy, when the Lord shall have washed away their filth, washed it from among them by cutting off the wicked persons, washed it from within them by purging out the wicked thing. They shall not be called so till they are in some measure made so. Gospel times are times of reformation (Heb. 9:10), typified by the reformation in the days of Hezekiah and that after captivity, to which this promise refers. Observe, 1. The places and persons to be reformed. Jerusalem, though the holy city, needed reformation; and, being the holy city, the reformation of that would have a good influence upon the whole kingdom. The daughters of Zion also must be reformed, the women in a particular manner, whom he had reproved, ch. 3:16. When they were decked in their ornaments they thought themselves wondrously clean; but, being proud of them, the prophet call them their filth, for no sin is more abominable to God than pride. Or by the daughters of Zion may be meant the country towns and villages, which were related to Jerusalem as the mother-city, and which needed reformation. 2. The reformation itself. The filth shall be washed away; for wickedness is filthiness, particularly blood-shed, for which Jerusalem was infamous (2 Ki. 21:16), and which defiles the land more than any other sin. Note, The reforming of a city is the cleansing of it. When vicious customs and fashions are suppressed, and the open practice of wickedness is restrained, the place is made clean and sweet which before was a dunghill; and this is not only for its credit and reputation among strangers, but for the comfort and health of the inhabitants themselves. 3. The author of the reformation: The Lord shall do it. Reformation-work is God’s work; if any thing be done to purpose in it, it is his doing. But how? By the judgment of his providence the sinners were destroyed and consumed; but it is by the Spirit of his grace that they are reformed and converted. This is the work that is done, not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit of the Lord of hosts (Zec. 4:6), working both upon the sinners themselves that are to be reformed and upon magistrates, ministers, and others that are to be employed as instruments of reformation. The Spirit herein acts, (1.) As a spirit of judgment, enlightening the mind, convincing the conscience,—as a spirit of wisdom, guiding us to deal prudently, (Isa. 52:13),—as a discerning, distinguishing, Spirit, separating between the precious and the vile. (2.) As a Spirit of burning, quickening and invigorating the afflictions, and making men zealously affected in a good work. The Spirit works as fire, Mt. 3:11. An ardent love to Christ and souls, and a flaming zeal against sin, will carry men on with resolution in their endeavours to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. See Isa. 32:15, 16.

IV. That God will protect his church, and all that belong to it (v. 5, 6); when they are purified and reformed they shall no longer lie exposed, but God will take a particular care of them. Those that are sanctified are well fortified; for God will be to them a guide and a guard.

1. Their tabernacles shall be defended, v. 5.

(1.) This writ of protection refers to, [1.] Their dwelling places, the tabernacles of their rest, their own houses, where they worship God alone, and with their families. That blessing which is upon the habitation of the just shall be a protection to it, Prov. 3:33. In the tabernacles of the righteous shall the voice of rejoicing and salvation be, Ps. 118:15. Note, God takes particular cognizance and care of the dwelling-places of his people, of every one of them, the poorest cottage as well as the statliest palace. When iniquity is put far from the tabernacle the Almighty shall be its defence, Job 23:23, 26. [2.] Their assemblies or tabernacles of meeting for religious worship. No mention is made of the temple, for the promise points at a time when not one stone of that shall be left upon another; but all the congregations of Christians, though but two or three met together in Christ’s name, shall be taken under the special protection of heaven; they shall be no more scattered, no more disturbed, nor shall any weapon formed against them prosper. Note, we ought to reckon it a great mercy if we have liberty to worship God in public, free from the alarms of the sword of war or persecution.

(2.) This writ of protection is drawn up, [1.] In a similitude taken from the safety of the camp of Israel when they marched through the wilderness. God will give to the Christian church as real proofs, though not so sensible, of his care of them, as he then gave to Israel. The Lord will again create a cloud and smoke by day, to screen them from the scorching heat of the sun, and the shining of a flaming fire by night, to enlighten and warm the air, which in the night is cold and dark. See Ex. 13:21; Neh. 9:19. This pillar of cloud and fire interposed between the Israelites and the Egyptians, Ex. 14:20. Note, Though miracles have ceased, yet God is the same to the New-Testament church that he was to Israel of old; the very same yesterday, to-day, and for ever. [2.] In a similitude taken from the outside cover of rams’ skins and badgers’ skins that was upon the curtains of the tabernacle, as if every dwelling place of Mount Zion and every assembly were as dear to God as that tabernacle was: Upon all the glory shall be a defense, to save it from wind and weather. Note, The church on earth has its glory. Gospel truths and ordinances, the scriptures and the ministry, are the church’s glory; and upon all this glory there is a defence, and ever shall be, for the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. If God himself be the glory in the midst of it, he will himself be a wall of fire around about it, impenetrable and impregnable. Grace in the soul is the glory of it, and those that have it are kept by the power of God as in a strong-hold, 1 Pt. 1:5.

2. Their tabernacle shall be a defence to them, v. 6. God’s tabernacle was a pavilion to the saints (Ps. 27:5); but, when that is taken down, they shall not want a covert: the divine power and goodness shall be a tabernacle to all the saints. God himself will be their hiding-place (Ps. 32:7); they shall be at home in him, Ps. 91:9. He will himself be to them as the shadow of a great rock (ch. 32:2) and his name a strong tower, Prov. 18:10. He will be not only a shadow from the heat in the daytime, but a covert from storm and rain. Note, In this world we must expect change of weather and all the inconveniences that attend it; we shall meet with storm and rain in this lower region, and at other times the heat of the day no less burdensome; but God is a refuge to his people in all weathers.

Isa 4:1 And seven women (seven churches of Rev)) shall take hold of one man (Jesus) in that day, saying, We will eat our own bread,(We do not want the Unleavened Bread, we will eat our own doctrine) and wear our own apparel:(we will not wear the righteousness of Christ through faith, but our own righteousness through works) only let us be called by thy name;(Please just let us use Your Name, Jesus , so that they can call us Christians) take thou away our reproach.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of Jehovah (man child) be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. (for those of the church who have escaped from Babylon, the wolves, and have returned unto the true Unleavened Bread: Jesus , the Word of God)2Ki 19:30 And the remnant that is escaped (from Babylon )of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

Exegesis

Seven Women shall take hold of One Man
"And in that day
seven women shall take hold of one man,
saying,
We will eat our own bread,
and wear our own apparel:
only let us be called by thy name,
to take away our reproach. "
Isaiah 4:1.

That "seven women" would seek to be called by the name of "one man" is a clear evidence of polygamy (polygyny) in the Bible, even in prophecy such as this passage. Of course, though, the situation described in this prophetic verse is not all that positive.

A rather small minority, however, does view that verse as a "literal" prophecy, foretelling of a time when women might out-number men, seven-to-one.

Howbeit, most Bible-believers see that verse, instead, as a negative prophecy, regarding the churches of God seeking to "do their own thing".

According to the verse, the seven women are arrogant women. Their only motivation for marrying the man is to use him. They only want to be CALLED by the man's name, only so as to take away their reproach, their shame. But they still arrogantly want to do things their own way. They want to provide their own things their own way.

This, of course, does NOT present an image of the type of wives that Bible-believing men would want to marry! It certainly does not describe marriage within the Biblical marriage-model of Ephesians 5:22-25.

Given, as the majority of Bible-believers believe, that this prophecy is an image about arrogant churches (rather than "literally" about arrogant women wanting to marry a polygamist), this passage presents a "wake-up call" for all Bible-believers.

Namely, the "seven women" are understood as being churches who only want to be CALLED by the name of Christ, to be His brides. They only do so in hopes of having their fruitless shame (as per sin) removed, even though they still arrogantly want to do things their own way.

They want to feed themselves their own bread, instead of being fed on the bread of Christ.

They want to clothe themselves in their own apparel, instead of being clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

While there is reasonable debate among many as to whether the similitude of the "seven women" in Isaiah 4:1 is connected directly with the "seven churches" of Revelation chapters 2 and 3, many still agree, nevertheless, that Isaiah 4:1 is a negative prophecy concerning arrogant churches. It is the foretelling of seven churches wanting to marry Christ who do so only with a selfish motive to seek to have His salvation (i.e., to be CALLED "Christian", to be CALLED by His Name) but while, at the same time, still wanting to be doing things their own way, to stay in their sin. They want to be CALLED "Christian" but they do not want to BE Christian, in ALL their ways, "in spirit and in truth".

As TruthBearer.org's Mark the Founder has said, Isaiah 4:1 could be seen as a forewarning, that this prophecy could even be foretelling of any Churches that adamantly refuse to believe or to allow themselves to see the Biblically-proven truth that polygamy (polygyny) really is Biblical. That is, such Churches want to be called by the name of Christ, while they simultaneously close their ears to the Biblical truth of polygyny and thereby unwittingly even accuse Jesus Christ Himself of supposed "sin", because of Matthew 25:1-13! This is, of course, combined with the matter that 1 Timothy 4:1-3a reveals that the Holy Spirit expressly foretold of the time when people would be forbidding to marry any families such as that of polygamous Abraham, Moses, David, and others, as well as how The Lord described Himself polygynously too, as Jesus clearly did, for example, in Matthew 25:1-13.

Indeed, Isaiah 4:1 is not the only time that a prophecy describes the relationship between The Lord and the Churches in a context of a polygamist marriage setting.

Namely, this Isaiah 4:1 prophecy does indeed also provide such additional confirmation of the Biblical presentation of the plurality of Churches (i.e., more than one) being as brides of Christ (plurally). Just as Christ is presented as polygamously married to His Churches (i.e., being Bridegroom of the "five wise virgins") in Matthew 25:1-13, so too does this Isaiah 4:1 present Christ in another context of polygamous marriage with Churches.

Even as the Isaiah 4:1 prophecy is indeed so perceived by most Bible-believers as such a negative prophecy regarding the churches, it does still, nevertheless, demonstrate a key point about the topic of polygamy.

Namely, the fact that this prophecy would detail the idea of seven women who WANT to marry a polygamist (even in the context of churches unto Christ), that fact itself, that a prophecy of God would use polygamy in such an example, is further proof again that polygamy really is Biblical.

The Ground is Thirsty
by Dr. E.W. Bullinger

A figure is simply a word or a sentence thrown into a peculiar form, different from its original or simplest meaning or use. These forms are constantly used by every speaker and writer. It is impossible to hold the simplest conversation, or to write a few sentences without, it may be unconsciously, making use of figures. We may say, "the ground needs rain": that is a plain, cold, matter-of-fact statement; but if we say "the ground is thirsty," we immediately use a figure. It is nor true to fact, and therefore it must be a figure. But how true to feeling it is! how full of warmth and life! Hence, we say, "the crops suffer"; we speak of "a hard heart," "a rough man," "an iron will." In all these cases we take a word which has a certain, definite meaning, and apply the name, or the quality, or the act, to some other thing with which it is associated, by time or place, cause or effect, relation or resemblance.

Some figures are common to many languages; others are peculiar to some one language. There are figures used in the English language, which have nothing that answers to them in Hebrew or Greek; and there are Oriental figures which have no counterpart in English; while there are some figures in various languages, arising from human infirmity and folly, which find, of course, no place in the word of God.
It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure) ?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. And as it is employed only to call our attention to some specially designed emphasis, we are at once bound to diligently examine the figure for the purpose of discovering and learning the truth that is thus emphasized.

We have to decide what should be taken allegorically and literally.

C. said:



I have to say how very amazing this is, I have been studying the book of Isaiah for about a month or so and when I got to this part in 4:1, the Lord revealed to me the very same thing about the-
7 churches/7 women that want His (Jesus) name, but want to create their own doctrine and believe their own
version of the gospel.

Here is a little more-
Isaiah 4
3. And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem
(this is speaking of those that have not gone out to serve other gods in babylon, but have remained faithful and endured to the end)
will be called holy—everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem.

4 When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
(when God has removed those that have commited harlotry in the church and separated them from the remnant) and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning, (the second death)
5 then the LORD will create above every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night.

Amen! I just love when He reveals His truth to us, I cant help but think- Who is man that God is mindful of him?

In Christ,
Chris

Well that is why the church is in so much disagreement. WE want to decide.

Instead, we should just agree with the Bible and everything will be simple and clear.

Clearly the scripture alone is inadequate.

We SHOULD want to decide, who else do you propose.... isn't that how it is supposed to work? I sit in my church each Sunday and contrary to me bringing a message, hymn, teaching, whatever God has given me in the Spirit via my gift, (a church tradition and teaching, a necessity for a healthy church), I am to sit and wait for a paid someone to spoon feed me more milk, (perhaps their decision), as they stand and stare at the cross one more time, remaining vigilant that that is all there is. The new testament tabernacle.......see the cross (altar), acknowledge the cross, wash in the big basin (baptism) so we won't die, turn around and rehash the cross over and over and over and over.......... it's all in God's economy, but what about the people who want to go on into the tent and talk to God face to face as a friend, get the message and take it back out for someone to hear that week. How can you see the layers, but they are not spelled out on the surface, until later, maybe by someone's allegory. Dennis obviously does not see a womb, but I do. I am not the first one to think that the hymen is like the curtain, and all that that has to do with earthly marriage and the church wedding. Sure, a little strange, but nevertheless trying to find His Presence. Help me out, someone..............we don't want these ideas in our church, it makes us uncomfortable, maybe that is the frustration/disagreement/lack of unity that we are feeling as we walk according to someone's strict adherance to only what the Bible teaches to one.... and isn't that the great thing about the HS (councelor), that He teaches us regardless of our historical understanding or education level. Children know what Love is. What about faith? He will show me the error of my misunderstandings as I move glory to glory. How is it that you can simply and clearly see what the Bible has for you, yet you do not allow others the same latitude. How about grace.

It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure) ?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. And as it is employed only to call our attention to some specially designed emphasis, we are at once bound to diligently examine the figure for the purpose of discovering and learning the truth that is thus emphasized.

Everybody believes that they agree with the simple and clear statements of the Bible. Nevertheless, as Miki pointed out we have extraordinary range of belief and bewildering confusion in Protestantism. Clearly the scripture alone is inadequate. Even Calvin if he were to see the end result of Sola Scriptura today would have fainted back from pronouncing it. Confusion, division and loss of faith is the end result of Sola Scriptura as we have seen played out over the last couple of hundred years.

We SHOULD want to decide, who else do you propose.... isn't that how it is supposed to work? I sit in my church each Sunday and contrary to me bringing a message, hymn, teaching, whatever God has given me in the Spirit via my gift, (a church tradition and teaching, a necessity for a healthy church), I am to sit and wait for a paid someone to spoon feed me more milk, (perhaps their decision), as they stand and stare at the cross one more time, remaining vigilant that that is all there is. The new testament tabernacle.......see the cross (altar), acknowledge the cross, wash in the big basin (baptism) so we won't die, turn around and rehash the cross over and over and over and over.......... it's all in God's economy, but what about the people who want to go on into the tent and talk to God face to face as a friend, get the message and take it back out for someone to hear that week. How can you see the layers, but they are not spelled out on the surface, until later, maybe by someone's allegory. Dennis obviously does not see a womb, but I do. I am not the first one to think that the hymen is like the curtain, and all that that has to do with earthly marriage and the church wedding. Sure, a little strange, but nevertheless trying to find His Presence. Help me out, someone..............we don't want these ideas in our church, it makes us uncomfortable, maybe that is the frustration/disagreement/lack of unity that we are feeling as we walk according to someone's strict adherance to only what the Bible teaches to one.... and isn't that the great thing about the HS (councelor), that He teaches us regardless of our historical understanding or education level. Children know what Love is. What about faith? He will show me the error of my misunderstandings as I move glory to glory. How is it that you can simply and clearly see what the Bible has for you, yet you do not allow others the same latitude. How about grace.

I sit in my church each Sunday and contrary to me bringing a message, hymn, teaching, whatever God has given me in the Spirit via my gift, (a church tradition and teaching, a necessity for a healthy church), I am to sit and wait for a paid someone to spoon feed me more milk, (perhaps their decision), as they stand and stare at the cross one more time, remaining vigilant that that is all there is. The new testament tabernacle.......see the cross (altar), acknowledge the cross, wash in the big basin (baptism) so we won't die, turn around and rehash the cross over and over and over and over.......... it's all in God's economy, but what about the people who want to go on into the tent and talk to God face to face as a friend, get the message and take it back out for someone to hear that week.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law:
Mat 10:36 and a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.

The confusion is because we left the Word of God as only source. Its the result of "getting to decide".
If you read church history you will see how short a time it was until the church was in error.

C, Where do you put the Holy Spirit in this? Why does Jesus say He will not leave us, but send a helper.







And the fact is, He puts us here among men.......you say all the answers are ultimately in the Word......why when reading the scripture, do some things "quicken" my spirit, and other times not......







.how do you decide what works are the works you are to participat in. No two individuals are the same, no two children. He provides one perfect Father for all of His children. IF that were not the case, we could read the Bible once and walk away unified. Thanks for the comment, I really do like the discussion. It may be one of those things that further down the path, I can laugh and say what a dummy I was.

I'm not sure C, why you're raking this all into one pile..osos etc. But l've never doubted my salvation. I've doubted my standing with God because of my own stupidity over certain things...being out of hearing range for example. I've gotten on my knees. But l've never doubted my salvation nor should any believer. Key word...believer. Can't even imagine anyone being a Christian without believing. Who the heck are you talking about anyway?





You should get off the rapture trip. Your letting it dictate who you are and it's separating you from brotherly Love...





C...when you say you don't "take everything that man says is from God you test it with the word", you imply that others don't. You're jabbing again. Making implications...You elevate yourself at the expense of others.






Your conditional salvation system is your own. All sin ... Even Christians. Even Paul when he was filled to over flowing with the Holy Ghost.



But go ahead and vent your beliefs. It's not going to make me anymore saved then l already am. But it will turn me off to gleaning the good of your depth of knowledge that so richly offers blessing to all who want to partake...When you start to slam l skim...It's just a fact...





But l love you anyway. And that's with out syrup and a smiley face.

I don't know C, sometimes the HS can come to me when I am driving, or singing, not just scripture reading....passing someone with a flat, or seeing a child crying. I am listening, and I admit to have made an extra point to people to say, "This is how it happens!", but I can see now that in my excitment of the goodness, I was beating people with my God stick, as my sister liked to say. Not with bad intentions, just maybe not the right choice. By the way, I am going to meet with the seniors at my church this evening. They are hard line Church of Christ (no Holy Spirit taught in their generation), median age of approx. 80. I am the narrator, as I hold class, but they have patience with me. I have been trying to convince them for three years now about the HS. Thanks for your comments.
Ed

I am not only implying it Miki, I am saying it. Many do not test what they say against the Word of God.To say that all do is just plain not the truth. Its like saying "all Christians floss their teeth"

When l challenge you it causes people to look twice at what they're hearing... Maybe that's the point of the forum. sigh...

C,
I need more Bible knowledge. I am often aghast (sp?) at myself when I read all the scripture references and think to myself, wow, how come you don't remember that one. Thanks for the discipline and study.