I was wondering if anyone could try and help me, I'm in desperate need for an answer. If there is a god then how can he let all the suffering that is goin on in the world happen? It isn't as thought he can't see it or doesn't have the power to stop it from happening since he is both omnipotent and omnipresent. I really need your help. If you have any answers for me then i would really appreciate it. Just look at the world around you, how could anyone stand by and let all of this happen?
Please email me back with your answers to my dilema to the following address:
call_me_jelly@hotmail.com with the same title as this topic.
Love to you all. x

I also E-mail my reply:

Depending on how you respond with an interest, I can get more and more
detailed, but here is the gist and you let me know what you think,
please.

You know what happened in the garden of Eden, right? That was
basically a challenge to God's sovereignty, or his RIGHT to rule his
creation. Satan (and Adam by joining his wife) declared themselves
independent of God's rule.

We now have 6000 years of history to prove them wrong. After
Armageddon, there will NEVER be another need to prove God right. Yes,
God does NOT HAVE to prove anything to anyone. It is actually an act
of love that he CHOSE to do so. Remember, he WILL make all the
suffering go away and those who have suffered will not remember it and
be countlessly blessed many times over.

For just a small sample, please note the following scriptures:

Revelation 21:3,4 - With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say:
“Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them,
and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And
he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more,
neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things
have passed away.”

Isaiah 65:17 - “For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and
the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up
into the heart."

I think my response to this will be a bit more on the natural level for the glory of God the Father.

I have a child with regressive autism. I begged God to reveal to me why this had happened to me and to my child. That He would please tell me what sin caused this so that i could repent and to please give this cross to me rather than this precious innocent little girl. I kept searching my soul for what brought this on this little innocent being that to me was a blessing and a curse.

One day her little brother came to me very angry and upset with something she had done. In great dismay and sad heart he asked, " momma, why did God have to give me a sister like her?" What came out of my mouth was not only satisfying to him but a complete shock to me because it was my answer also and i didnt even know it was coming.

I told this wonderful little boy, "God knew she would need a brother just like you to help her through the rough world and love her when she is not so loveable"

I cried till i thought my eyes would explode and repented of my doubt of God's mercy. See in that instant i knew that God had given me a job no one else could do and still believe He is on his throne, someone whose faith could/would endure to the end and give Him the glory.

This earth is cursed and man and his seed is cursed, but the righetous that can stand fast in their faith and endure to the end will receive their reward.

I truely believe that Jesus picks only his best soldiers to suffer the most, so that God the Father can be gloriefied. I dont know how the end will be other than "I" and my house will serve the Lord so that in the end we can spend the rest of eternity in heaven with Him and not suffere any more.

I often re-read the passage of Jesus calling Peter out of the boat and in faith Peter went. I find that if in the storm that the water comes into the boat, i can get out of the boat and walk on the water, when i just stand fast in my faith and not take my eyes off Jesus. Because if the blessings rain on the unjust because they are standing next to me then it stands to reason that if someone or something that is cursed is near me in this world then i also get that spilled out on my life, but in faith i know what the end of the story is.

See i know that satan wants to keep me from saying anything to anyone about Gods great mercy and grace and if he(satan) can keep me looking at my situation i cant look at God. You cant have a testimony without a test, but be careful not to get stuck in the monies or the blessings that come with the victory will not come.

The little girl (my daughter) has shown me more of God than anyonecould ever read to me out of the bible. She sat in front of a large window one day(never been in church becuase she couldnt tolerate the noises and the close proximity of other people) at the age of about 5-6 years. She hadnt spoken i nover a year that would make any sense to anyone, only some babbling and noises. Sheturned and looked at me and said. "momma, one day the sky will open and we will all see God" I asked her to repeat it and she couldnt. With that i know that with her blessing *I* too will be blessed because i am in such close proximity to her. I wouldnt have missed this journey for anything and thank God for her every day. Some days it gets really hard and those are the days i praise God even louder and longer cause i am not letting satan steal my blessings anymore.

I now know that not all things that seem bad are, and i have slowed my judgment of what is a blessing or a cursing and look for God's mercy through Jesus in all things. Even the hard situations can strengthen me and i just let God be God.

I hope this helps

It should help anyone who is stuggling. It is a high office you hold. May the Lord bless you even more because of willingness to trust Him with your life. I've often wondered how I would be with a deep stuggle as I complain about the smallest of things. Bless you.

Yes Firewall so true....we should be blessed to have suffereing in the name of our dear Savior....through pain we sometimes find the glory of GOD.
Sometimes it takes a baseball bat to the head hehhe in our stuborness.
Turning away from the true thing that we instictly know that we are drawn to...the enternal love of GOD, is always beckoning to us. Yet in our own ego and stubborn ways we reject that someone else may have a perfect plan for our individuality, of each person and the gifts we all have. Through suffering sometimes..and only then do we truly find the true gifts of love and the gifts that where once hidden appear.
MUCH PEACE TO YOU in all your struggles and rewards...bless them both with all your heart and soul.
In the name of our dear Lord Jesus Christ, blessed be your name, exalted in your HOLY love.

Jelly,
Here are some articles I thought might be helpful:

Why There Is Suffering In The World
http://cbn.org/SpiritualLife/perspectives/...n_the_World.asp

Giving Thanks In Tough Times
http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/ministry_ar...html?view=print

The Blessing Of Thorns
http://www.homewithgod.com/Cards/theblessingofthorns.shtml

God Bless,
kjo700

If a person is born rich, it's a test from God. The rich man can pass the test (help the poor, send Bibles to the Bible-less, etc.) or he can fail the test (live in leisure, luxuries, entertainment, selfishness, etc).

If a person is born poor, again, it's a test from God. He can pass the test (work at an honest job, etc) or he can fail the test (steal from the rich, become bitter, etc).

God is waiting to see what we do with our circumstances. Since God told us to help the poor, then the poor can expect help from others. And the poor certainly may ask for help: there's no shame in it. If a person does not want to help the poor, then he has committed great sin (he has not loved the poor). If one does not love the poor, then he doesn't love the Lord either. If a person has a need (food, medicine, job, land, money, etc.), he/she should let others know about it. God has commanded the (more fortunate) others to help the poor, sick, etc.

Both the giver and the receiver will get a blessing from God.

Adam and Eve sinned the original sin, so God put a curse on them, their descendants, and all of creation. If we had never sinned, there would be no storms, famines, diseases, etc.

If we never had to work, and we never had any un-happy experiences, then we would be spoiled indeed! The Bible says that suffering produces character.

99.99 per cent of my problems are caused by my sin and other people's sin. If we did stop sinning, I assume that we would still have some storms, sickness, Poison Ivy, briers, thorns, thistles, etc, but most of our problems would be solved. What a better world we would have if we all loved the Lord and each other!

Just think about it. Imagine if all the Americans, Russians, Chinese, Palestinians, loved the Lord, and loved all people! What a blessing that would be! But, No. Most of us choose to sin. What a difference there is between a repentant heart and the un-repentant!

And if I understand correctly, even if I made a tremendous effort to never sin again, my life would still have much sin in it. Even my best efforts are done with imperfect love and motives, my faith is far from perfect, etc.

dennis manning

Thanks Kjo700 those links were heart warming.

Jelly, here is a link I hope it helps. It is something that God had laid on my heart a few years back when my brother was having a hard time dealing with the way people hurt others. Many times that question is asked, and I like what others here have replied to your post. I have been there. I too had wondered how any God could allow people to hurt others. Sometimes we need to NOT ask GOD questions...we just need to be silent so that we can hear his sweet voice. I have learned to forgive those who have brought termoil to my life especially as a child a helpless chid. Just a few years ago I was given the opportunity to see my dad in who I had not seen in many many years. It was hard at first to look him in the face or to even be in the same room with him. With what he had done to me as a child. Not only did he abuse us in every way possible but he abandoned his 7 children as well for years no one knew where he was. When I was saved in 1985 I prayed that before I die or my dad dies that I would get the chance to see him face to face. I DID and at a time when he had just had a mild stroke and had to have surgery. I found myself at his side through the whole operation and then took care of him the few days of his recovery at my brothers home. It was awkward but then I rememberd that this was an answered prayer. And I made the best of it. I do forgive my dad and others who have brought pain to me as I hope that others will forgive me for hurting them.

http://www.geocities.com/angelheart424/PRAYERSANDDEVOTIONS2

Here is a verse that many times got me through the bad times.

Isaiah 40:31 (NIV)
But those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not faint.

God Bless you all...

angelheart

Dear Jelly I had to reach to you and try to answer your question. I am 50 years old. My wife of twelve years died two years ago in a car accident. When I was 26 years old both of my parents died in a plane crash. When I was 10 yrs old my 9 yr old little brother was struck by a speeding car and died about 9 hours later in the hospital. I can honestly say that his is a question I have pondered for most of my life and I have come to several answers. First though let me say that one of the best books I have ever read on the subject is ‘The Problem Of Pain’ by C. S. Lewis, you can probably order this book at any of your neighborhood bookstores if they don’t already have it in the shelf.

Let us suppose that there was a universe in which only one single creature lived and wherever he went and whatever he did God scurried ahead of him and smoothed out every little wrinkle in the ground made sure that when he got hungry a tree just happened to be there with the most luscious fruit imaginable whenever he was thirst there just happened to be a sparkling brook with water that tasted like the sweetest of wines and whenever he got tired there just happened by God’s grace to be the perfect mossy bank to use as a mattress and pillow. God arranges the perfect weather at all times etc. I don’t know about you but for me It would be a race as to whether I grew bored or lonely first. So God creates a friend for me. Now I am no longer Lonely or bored but unless the friend is a total robot there will eventually coma a point when conflict of some sort arises. Say we are walking along and I start to turn right just as he starts to turn left and we meet in the middle. Now God has one of two choices. Either let us bump into each other or send us each into a separate universe at least for the time that there is a momentary conflict in satisfying both of our every desires. As you can see the more people that enter this scenario the more there is a possibility that inadvertently conflict arises in satisfying everybody’s desires at every moment. God understands that this is really an unworkable solution so he declares that he is going to have one universe with a permanent set of laws and we will have to live in it as best we can. If we get hungry and the stream of water is over the next hill we will have to go to oit to have a drink. If someone else is already there we will have to learn to share. This is not only a better universe for all concerned on the average but also people have to learn to start giving consideration to others as to what their needs are. In other words in the universe that catered to our every need at every moment we were never anything more than a child or an infant now in this universe we have a chance to grow and develop. So far we have not even introduced the subject of sin.
This is gretting long so I will continue in another post.


Dave

This is the contnuation of my previous post
Now let us consider a universe in which we have a choice to do Good or Evil. In the Universe where we have to at lest move out of each others way there was not the capability of Love. Simply moving over is not love it is merely the acknowledgement that in this universe two objects cannot occupy the same place at the same time. However when we have the choice of moral good or evil then we can choose to put someone’s good above our own. If we see that our friend is thirsty we can go get them a drink and bring it to them where they sit as a gesture of our affection. We can also choose however to go poison the well and laugh in glee as we watch him turn purple and die. A robot cannot love as love has to be freely given and a robot can only do what it is programmed to do. Therefore G_d gave us the ability to make a moral choice as he wished for the quality of Love which is his chief quality to grow and flourish in the world. He knew however that we could never learn to truly love unless he showed us what true love was all about. This was why he established the conditions whereby in a society that had been taught the power and the glory of God he came and gave a supreme demonstration on the cross of what it truly means to love. By giving us the perfect demonstration of Love he opened our eyes to why we had the ability to choose him over all others. We do not know the relative worth of Love versus Hate and to our eyes it may appear that the total misery out weighs the total Love that has been generated but it is not ours to question how he has architected this process. The Physical Universe is an engine that creates Love with misery and sin as a waste byproduct and I have no idea what G_ds long term plans are for the disposal of that byproduct or the recycling of such. We know that in the short term our personal eternity we have been told that the eternal damnation of hell is the repository of this byproduct. However the strange thing about eternities are that there can be an infinite number of eternities nested inside of any single eternity quite comfortably. (Google Cantorian transfinite sets theory) In the infinity of eternities I like to think that all evil will slowly be worked into Good but that is simply my own personal fancy and has no Biblical grounding. In the final analysis G_d decided it was worth the pain that has ensued to create the love that has been a golden thread throughout all of human history. In the darkest and most evil times there have been men that sheltered and helped their fellow man selflessly and without thought to the cost to themselves. There has always been Love and that would have been impossible without the ability to choose not to love.

Most of the evil and pain in the world today is from the choice to not love but all the noblest and greatest that we have been able to become is because of the choice to Love and primarily the choice to Love our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus and try to emulate his life in the world around us. It is according to his example either in the looking ahead to his example during the time before Calvary or the looking back after the time of Calvary that all Love exists and that could not have happened without people being given the ability to choose.

Just what I have come up with in my 50 yrs here in earth

Dave

Brother/Sister:
The devil satan is in the world deceiving many into disobeying God of Jesus Christ. Satan enjoys tempting and deceiving souls in murderings, violence, wars, disobedience toward the true and living God, suffering of all kinds. Is there a way of escape? Yes, God sent His only begotten Son to shed His precious blood and bring forth the Holy Spirit that all who believe should have everlasting life and enter God's Kingdom. This is the only way. Receive the full gospel of Jesus Christ so you will have strength to overcome suffering and battle against the devil; arise to pray and rebuke the devil satan and cast out the evils of unbelief while going to preach to others and set them free from sin and death.
The hope of us who have believed is to deny ourselves and help those who have not yet believed. Pray for those who have been chosen to do God's Will, those whose foundation is built on the Rock, Jesus Christ the Son of God.

i'm not sure if i agree that Satan enjoys "tempting and deceiving souls in murderings, violence, wars, disobedience toward the true and living God, suffering of all kinds."

The entire human race suffers because of sin which came from Adam and Eve's disobedience to God and obeying the devil instead. Their spirit died. Disobeying God is the most serious sin of all.
Today, if we believe and receive the fullness of Jesus Christ, God's Son, the Savior of all mankind, we will receive power from God to overcome the world, sin and death and boast victory over the devil.
I pray your faith be strengthened.

majority of the sins you committ are from your own free will.
don't blame the devil for the things you decide to do.
you lost me when you started saying "Savior of all mankind, we will receive power from God to overcome the world, sin and death and boast victory over the devil."

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



I pray you read more and may the Spirit enlighten you.

God bless.

being fair minded about explaning things, what if the person doesn't believe in free will? How do you explain to that person of sins that are then committed?

if a person does not believe in free will then what do they believe in?
they are controlled by the devil or spirit?

i noticed i was editing while you were typing. sorry Bob, didnt know you
were responding.

Okay,

Say a person wished shehad blue eyes because hers were brown, and she wish she was born into a nicer family because she was raised with an alcoholic father. Say she wanted to be a nurse when she would grow up but she was killed in a car accident at 16, when she was going to community college to better her life.

When she was younger she always wanted a bike and got one, but it was stolen a week later after she taken care to lock it.

She aways wanted another sister but only had three brothers.

Doesn't sound like this person had a lot of free will choices to affect her life chances.

Throughout the history of man we've lived with the idea that our destiny is our own choosing and ours to make of it. If that's the case then it would seem it is our choosing to have this war on terrorism, we choose to have war in Israel, we choose to have world hunger, we choose to have global warming, we have crisis upon crisis. What happened to the choice of peace? The choice of prosperity? The choice ecological harmony? Doesn't seem to me we are making any of the smart choices.

We are where we are at today because we believe ours is a choice to choose and shape our own destiny. Doesn't sound like our belief system is working to well for the better of mankind.

If God permitted man to go on long enough, the devil would eventually convince man that he created himself, and even longer that man always existed.

The honest truth in all this is "we don't know the future and we don't have choices" and we must rely upon God in every manner of all things to fulfil his purpose. Entrusting in him absolute faith that all of "our choices" are his.

The suffering in this world is not because of sin itself; its because we believe we are empowered to choose, and when we act upon that belief we sin. That's why there's suffering in the world.

I like you, C-los, you're easy to talk to. God gave you a good wit and an level sense for things.

the story of the girl is not an excercise of free will. She had no control of circumstances in life. But free will is a "self" issue.
It is the power to make your own decisions. You make a good decision, you will be blessed.
The story of the girl revolves around many factors. I know that they are examples but I will point out how some may be her own fault.
1. Bike got stolen because she failed to be responsible enough to lock it.
2. She wanted different color eyes because she didn't love the eyes God gave her.
3. Her getting killed at 16 was something God controlled but perhaps her alcoholic dad and brothers started a new path because of that incident.
We don't know God's overall plan for a person is but it is under His control. We have to accept that.
As for terrorism, war, crime, etc.
This is not free will.
We do not have control over the choices our government makes (and nations) but
I have two choices. Either support or not support.

The bible says to support your government.
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.
For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:
and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

the "higher power" is your government. It nevers says to like or dislike them but here God is saying that "the powers that be" are because God permitted them to be.
Some may not like Bush but to follow God's word is to accept your leaders and pray for
them. Many go protest and speak loudly about it when God is saying not to do that.
We do not have control of things like war, hunger, oppression but we have to have follow
what God says and have faith in His word. In the case of terrorism....we pray for our leaders, troops,
and safety. That is what God wants us to do.
You excercise free will here but not obeying God's word and speak
terrible things about Bush in a manner that you want others to hate him.
So free will is a "self" thing and things that are not in your control then we have to accept and have faith that God will take care.

we went a little astray of what free will really is.

Bob you're an A in my book.

Thanks

Okay, direct proof by logic, my friend.

Theorem: "There is 'no free will' "

Proof:

Assume there is "free will," then

free will => bad choice or good choice

bad choices => sin

sin => world suffering

So to rid of "world suffering" remove "free will" and there are at least no "bad choices"

remove "bad choices" and there is no "sin"

remove "sin" and there is no "world suffering"

But removing "free will" requires choice to have "no free will," then "free will" is the "bad choice" and "no free will" is the good choice. QED

i snagged this online:
"Free will is the belief or the philosophical doctrine that holds that humans have the power to choose their own deeds. "

if you choose to follow God's word that is free will.
if you choose to eat a sandwhich for lunch instead of pizza then that's your own free will.

free will may effect world suffering in war because the stance nations take and the choices the make but free will does not affect a meteor falling from the sky whiping out a country.
I can't say "yes" to your previous comment because it depends on the "suffering."

That is interesting, C-los; "it depends on the suffering."

Okay, assume all suffering is bad, but it doesn't mean suffering only begets more suffering.

Job suffered extensively and in the end there was good. Even Jesus suffered for our sakes and good was the end result.

Then, is it consistent to say all suffering is bad?

"Suffering for God" is good only because the suffering will turn out for the good (i.e. the suffering itself is not good, but it does not dictate the outcome will be bad. This is akin to having faith in God). We'll call this having "faith."

Suffering for something else (i.e. not for God) may not turn out for the good, so it is still consistent to say that suffering is still bad.

So, saying suffering "is good" is absurd (i.e. it contradicts the statement suffering is bad).

This qualifies "suffering" on it's type then (i.e. the "depends" part you stated earlier); suffering for God, or suffering not for God.

Is the world then suffering for God? If one believes "no" then things may not turn out for the good from their perspective.

If one believes "yes" then things will turn out for the good (one who believes we are suffering for God and still thinks things will turn out for the worst has a questionable faith).

From the previous post, if believing in "free will" is a "bad choice," and believing in "no free will" is the "good choice" (shown by proof), then there are several possibilities here

1. Freewill => suffering for God or suffering not for God
2. No Freewill => suffering for God or suffering not for God

It seems then from 1.

"A bad choice" => "having faith"

or

"A bad choice" => "suffering not for God."

and from 2.

"A good choice" => "having faith"

or

"A good choice" => "suffering not for God"

Assign true and false values to each statements above, eliminate the false values and comapare the statements having its value as true.

Thus.

"A bad choice" => "having faith" (FALSE)
"A bad choice" => "suffering not for God." (TRUE)
"A good choice" => "having faith" (TRUE)
"A good choice" => "suffering not for God" (FALSE)

which leaves

"A bad choice" => "suffering not for God" (TRUE)
"A good choice" => "having faith" (TRUE)

These two do seem to be the prevalent thinking amongst people. But it seems many Christians "choose" to believe "A bad choice" => "having faith" (FALSE). i.e freewill => suffering for God.

To show "A bad choice" => "having faith" is false requires another logical proof, but this statement is akin to the Christian who continually falls into sin, repents and sins again, which can lead to a disingenous faith in Christ, or for that matter the Christian constantly suffering genuine repentance, which is no fun, but how does the cycle end?

Very interesting

Geeez Bob, seems like you’re kinda hungry for some knowledge.
I kinda got some goodies for you but I would go into private messages for that stuff.
However, to answer your question.

Job’s “suffering” was a test of his obedience to God.
Job was a mature believer. This guy was waaaay beyond your normal believer. God was proud of him. Out of the many people on earth God recognized him! When people reach that waaaaay beyond the ordinary spiritual maturity then God may test you by letting Satan visit you.
What happens to Job is not what happens to many people. Satan can only be at one place at one time. If I’m stating that Satan is harming me then no one else in the world better claim that because Satan cannot be at two places at the same time. Scripture does not support that. The devil does have demons and such but when they attack you...you better duck!
So Job’s suffering was Satan personally messing with him with God’s permission. You can’t say that all suffering is for God. It is by God (or experiences) to help mature you or teach you things.

Jesus’ “suffering” had many things tied to it. We know many of them.

But not all suffering is God related.
If I whip out my credit cards and go on a charging spree…when the bills come in and my bank account says I cannot pay it. Yes I’m suffering and stressing but I caused it on myself. God had nothing to do with it. My irresponsible decision caused that and now I’m paying for it.

But suffering may be good because Job stuck it through and was blessed by God.
Suffering was good with the credit cards because next time I know not to charge so much. The reward was my learning a valuable lesson.

Individual suffering and worldly suffering are two different things.

So your question is…why is the world suffering?
Ha ha. I’ve studied a little while but the answer is extremely heavy.
Not sure if you're up to it.
I would suggest PM’s for a topic like that. You can listen and make up your mind later depending how it sits with you.
God bless.

Ah, my whole reference about Job and Jesus was that suffering for God is a good thing, not necessarily the suffering itself, but when you believe your suffering is for God then you also believe it will turn out good.

...you had delved more into the subject of Job and Jesus more than I wanted reflect upon in this discussion but that's okay

Anyway, sure, I am hungry for knowledge, all the while believing the Lord's Spirit will feed me.

As for the credit card experience, here's my take on it. I believe if I use my credit card excessively it is from the Lord's will. This is not a get out of free of excuses thing by blaming God because the consequences I endure will also be God's will. But keeping my faith in him believing the whole matter will resolve itself for the good in God is the real reward that results in spiritual growth in Christ.

Some however, needlessly endure more suffuring in their predicament than is realized by saying "I got myself into this mess." It's made worse by saying "I'll get myself out." And when they finally come to their senses by asking for God's help and the Lord bails him or her out, the whole cycle will start again in some other instance or experience or trouble because they will say "thanks, God for bailing me out. Now hand me back the reigns because I am responsible for my own choices and I have free will."

Oh well (sigh) what can you do but just pray for that person.

sorry can't go that route with ya.
There's a 40" Samsung LCD TV I want and if I charged it...it would be between the flesh and I. not God.
We have different points of views.

Bless ya man.

Disobing God,