In Isaiah 41:8-9, God clearly calls Israel his “servant.”
“But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend, I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

However, in Isaiah 42:1-7 we read about the “servant” as an individual:
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations…. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; 4 he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth.
In his law the islands will put their hope.”
This is what God the LORD says… “I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles, to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.

Is Isaiah still speaking of the nation or is he speaking of an individual? Jesus knew the answer:
Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” 20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

Again Hosea seems to move between a man and a nation in Hosea 11:1-2 “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. 2 But the more I called Israel, the further they went from me.

However, when Matthew wrote about the time Joseph took Mary and their son, Jesus into Egypt till Herrod died, the Bible says:
“And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son (Matthew 2:15).”

Why did Jesus have to go to Egypt and come back again in order to fulfill that prophecy about Israel? Clearly, Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament story of Israel.
Should we be looking to Jesus and his church as a fulfillment of the OT promises? Or should we ignore the clear NT interpretation of Israel and demand that it be fulfilled literally? What is there beyond Jesus? He is everything.

3am

Very good observation, 3am.

The pastor of our church spoke on Daniel 9:24-27 a couple of Sundays back.

The basic premis was that the passages take us all the way from the order to build the temple...455 B.C. or something like that...to modern times where the last "week" of 7s (70th week) takes place with God dealing with Israel, the antichrist revealed, you know...the traditional 1970's interpretation.

However, I got to looking thru the scriptures about verse 24 with regard to "transgression," "sin", and the other six things and thought, "Is credit really being given to Jesus for all that he accomplished at the cross?"

My pastor spoke that simply due to the wording, i.e. "to finish the transgression, and to make an end to sins..." that these must be after the tribulation as we enter the millennium, cause as far as he can see, there is still transgression and sin in the world." That's basically his reasoning.

You know what though? As I'm sitting here typing that, I realize that it doesn't work. Why? Because at the end of the millennium, when Satan is let loose one last time, he deceives much of the world into the same rebellion as before--transgression, sin, all the same stuff still exists, EVEN AFTER DANIEL'S SEVENTIETH WEEK! In fact, this is 1000 years, or so, later!

Am I right?

Therefore, there must be a different interpretation to Daniel 9:24 that concludes everything when Christ shouted, "IT IS FINISHED!"

What do you think?

In Christ,

Mike

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=8051

perhaps this thread might be of interest.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

Very good question and replies .

The seventieth week is New Testament.

I think we have to understand that the people of the Lord changed at the Crucifixion. We know that it changed from the Israel of the letter to the Israel of the spirit, when God grafted the Gentiles in, thus becoming " all Israel" Saved Jews and saved Gentiles)

Also , at the same moment, the city changed from a city of stone, to a people, called "Heavenly Jerusalem", because we are seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus

Daniel's sixth week came to an end at the crucifiction.

Now read Dan 9:24 again and change what you now know about the "holy city" and "thy people" into NT

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people (all Israel) and upon thy holy city(the NT people of God), to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
("Most holy" being the mercy seat that the blood of Jesus was sprinkled on)

So an end of sins will happen to those according to this prophecy, who are IN Christ (seated in the heavenlies). It will happen when the latter rain (latter anointing of the Holy Spirit) comes upon the believers. and Christ manifest in His body of believers.
According to the Bible we are saved in three stages: First the spirit, then we are saved by "be ye changed by the renewing of the mind" (getting to think like the Word) and lastly, those that "see Christ in the mirror" by faith, ..........their bodies come through into immortality. (be it to you according to your faith..as you see Christ in you and in others) (John 16 , Rom 8, Rev 12)

Mike, when Jesus said: It is finished. It truly was. He, at moment finished all that He came to do. He accomplished FULL salvation (sozo) for all. All healing was paid for by His stripes, every need was met, all deliverance was done. Then we received that "sozo" in promise form. We now have to enter into the healing, deliverance, provision etc, by believing the "It is finished" . So that is why we are told to make our request known to God with prayer AND thanksgiving (thanksgiving, because it has already been given at the cross) ......then we wait in faith for its manifestation.

this is a huge subject and not easily discussed via Internet.
love C

3am we have to look at the Scriptures knowing that it talks of Jesus , plus sometimes that same scripture is referring to Jesus again, but this time in His body of believers. Think about it. People these days put little importance to the fact that Christ is in us.The prophecies INLCLUDE that fact. People who leave that out , obviously try and place those prophecies somewhere and they get it wrong.
Look at this scripture, it is a good example. Notice that we have a "branch" (I am the vine, YOU are the branches) Also notice that it is not giving honour to the branch alone that will bear fruit , but that it is through being in the vine that it bears fruit. The true fruit of the branch is Christ. So its Christ in you and me, that will bring forth Christ for all to see.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse,(Jesus) and a branch(Believers) out of his(Jesus) roots shall bear fruit (Fruit=Christ).
Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him (Branch, him being the Body of Christ), the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.(notice Jehovah is feared by the one that this word is about)
Isa 11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;
Isa 11:4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his waist, and faithfulness the girdle of his loins.

It is about Jesus AND Jesus in His Body of Christ.

Look, here is another scripture telling the same thing:
First, here God is telling us that a time is coming where He will again put true shepherds (the Bride) over His flock (the church) (sorry if this do not make sense, but there is so much background to this, that the church today has swapped for human tradition)
Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock(New Testament) out of all the countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and multiply.
Jer 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them, who shall feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be lacking, saith Jehovah. (obviously this is still to happen)

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, (Christ manifesting in His body) and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness. (OUR , seeing that it is talking of a group of believers)

When will we be able to understand all of this? (because it has been hidden from the church by God until now)

Jer 23:20 .......................... in the latter days ye shall understand it perfectly.


One more example:
Jer 33:15 In those days[/b](Jer 23:20 tells us that it will be in the latter days), and at that time, will I cause [b]a Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.

Very important to notice, in the very next verse : he...changes to........she.
Because it is speaking of the two types: Man child/Bride One is a male type, the other a female type: Both represented here by "The Branch" (its the same thing)

Jer 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

Now if you look at the beginning of the post you see that there as well. (Jehovah our righteousness)Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, (Christ manifesting in His body) and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called : Jehovah our righteousness

So the Branch is not Jesus by Himself, but Jesus IN His people. We grow out of Him . We have to bear the fruit (actuall we BECOME the fruit: 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. ) So when Christ manifest in us, we will be "like Him" Christ becomes the fruit.

Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth. (Earth = flesh. We were purchased from the old self )

Rev 14:4 These are they that were not defiled with women; (Woman = churches of men) for they are virgins(They have only received the Word from the Father and have not been with the religions of men).
These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. (Rev 3:4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. )These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits (First to bring forth Christ in them) unto God and unto the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 [b]And in their mouth was found no lie:[/b](Because they speak only what the Word says) they are without blemish. Jas 3:2........... If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also. (So they stumble not in Word or word, they only speak the Word, so God has made them perfect....Christ is the only One who is perfect, thus again: Its Christ manifested in the first fruits)

That is the first 144000
The second 144000 comes out of Israel.

I do not want to discuss that now, because most will want to jump on that and try and discredit everything else. Read it for yourselves before you disagree.The main thing to understand is the Biblical fact that Christ is in us for a reason.
love C

You are absolutely right.
The decree from Artaxerxes to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given in 457 BC.
In 69 weeks (of) from that date, Daniel said the Messiah (Anointed One) would come.
It is important to notice that the text says he will come, it does not say he will be crucified
in 69 weeks. pre-tribers try to make it say he would be crucified at that time but that is not
what the text says. It says he would be crucified after the 69 weeks.

Verse 24 says he would make atonement for sins during the 70 week period.
That means that the 70 weeks must be continuous. If he did not come until the 69th week and was
cut off after the 69th week but during the 70 week period.
The end of the 69 weeks came in 27 AD.
That is precisely when Jesus was baptized, and anointed by the Holy Spirit to begin his work as
Messiah.
That is why after he was baptized, Jesus said, "The time is fulfilled." Mark 1:15. What time?
The end of the 69 weeks when Messiah (which means anointed) would come.

Since Messiah would be cut off some time after the 69th week, and as I mentioned earlier, verse 24 says he would make atonement for sin during the 70 weeks. We should look for the cross in the 70th week. We don’t have to go far.
Verse 27 says "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Remember this prophecy is about Jesus. It does not say an antichrist will come and make a covenant. It says "he will confirm a covenant." There is nothing in this prophecy about anyone making a covenant with the Jews.
In fact, the KJV (translated before modern dispensationalism) properly translates it "He will confirm the covenant." The Hebrew word here means to make strong or strengthen. The verb is related to the Hebrew word for "a strong man" or a "warrior." When Hebrew writers wanted to refer to the making of a new covenant, they used the verb "to cut" to express that action. Daniel did not say he would "cut" a covenant, but confirm a covenant, which means an existing one. If the passage is about Jesus then, didn’t Jesus in fact confirm or strengthen God's covenant with Israel with his own blood when He died on the cross? Before that time it was confirmed by the blood of Goats and calves, but now it is confirmed by better blood, the blood of Christ. (see Hebrews 9:16-28). Where is even the hint of an antichrist making a new covenant with Israel after the rapture of the church?
In fact, the text goes on to say that in the "middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." If our dates are correct for 457 BC as the starting point and 27 AD for the Baptism of Messiah, then, the seventh week would end 7 years later in 34AD. That means that the middle of the 70th week (3 1/2 years) is 31AD, precisely when Jesus was crucified. At the very precise moment, the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom" Mat 27:51 signifying that the sacrificial system had come to an end in God's plan, for the Lamb of God had died to take away the sins of the world. It is true that the Jews who rejected Christ, continued offering sacrifices, but the book of Hebrews clearly shows that those sacrifices were meaningless in God's plan, because Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the Sanctuary in heaven (Heb 8:1f) by virtue of His own blood.
Not only did Jesus put and end to sacrifices, but Dan 9:24 also says he would anoint the most holy place during the 70 weeks. This he certainly did when he ascended to the Holy of Holies with his own blood to the right hand of God's throne "to do away with sin" (Heb 9:26).
In order to project the 70th week into the future, one would have to deny the High Priestly ministry of Christ.
It is all about Jesus!!!!

The dispensationalist’s assumption is that the 70 weeks contain a list of promises that God must fulfill to Israel in that particular time frame. In actuality, God is giving national Israel a 70 week time of probation to accomplish all of this. “Seventy weeks are decreed for your people to….” National Israel failed, but the true Israel, Jesus did accomplish it all and we can take part in His finished work by being “in Him.”
It was a time of probation for national Israel. She failed. Now she has been cut off as a nation, and the promises will be fulfilled to the true Israel, Jesus Christ.
Peter even calls the church "a holy nation" in 1 Peter 2:9

So you are correct!
Israel was given 70 weeks of years to put an end to sin.
She failed.
Jesus did it!!!
Heb 9:26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Keep moving forward. when you put Jesus at the center the Bible comes to life!
Follow the Lamb
3am

as per Dave Hunt:
and
as per THE COMING PRINCE by Sir Arthur Anderson:

Palm Sunday was the first time that Jesus allowed anyone to (publicly) call Him Messiah, so that was the "coming" of Christ, at the end of the 69 weeks............in 32AD................4 days after Palm Sunday, Jesus was dead, on Thursday afternoon

He couldn't announce that He was the messiah, until the end of the 483 years was finished...........because, as soon as He announced that He was the messiah, He would be killed.


the decree to re-build jerusalem was 445 BC, Nisan 1
Neh 1

445 BC, plus 483 years (360 days per year) is 32AD.

Dan 9;26.............at the end of the 483 years , Messiah will be "cut off" (killed).

the 70th week is in our future.........very soon to start.............."the time of Jacob's trouble"...........the 7 year trib.

John 4:25-26 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.” 26 Then Jesus declared, “I who speak to you am he.”
Jesus clearly and publicly claimed divinity and messiahship early on in His Ministry.
The prophecy does not even say that there would be 69 weeks till he publically proclaimed he was Messiah.
It says 69 till Messiah comes. Messiah means anointed one. He was anointed when he was baptized and began his ministry as Messiah. Are you saying Messiah had not come to Israel until palm Sunday?

I am familiar with Sir Anderson's work, but it is very old and much more reliable data is available now.
538 bc is the date for the decree by Artaxerxes and 27ad is 483 years later, precisely when Jesus was
Baptized and said, "the time is fulfilled" in Mark 1:15. The Middle of the 70th week would be 31AD which is when Jesus was crucified, thus putting an end to sacrifices and offerings in God's Plan (not in the eyes of the Jews who continued to sacrifice animals after the Lamb of God died).
If the 69 weeks until Messiah comes end on Palm Sunday, 4 days before the Cross Anderson has a problem.
Verse 24 says that Messiah would make atonement for sins during the 70 weeks.
So How can the 70th week be future? Where is there any hint that the 70th week is split off from the 69th.
The prophecy says, "70 weeks are decreed." What basis Anderson have for separating the 69th week from the 70th week?
You cant have Messiah coming at the end of the 69th week on Palm Sunday and
Have the atonement for sin (within the 70 weeks), 4 days later and still claim a 70th week some time in the future at least 2000 years.
It doesnt work.

You have not dealt with the original post on this thread which clearly shows Jesus being the fulfillment of the OT Isaiah prophecy concerning Israel?

Even according to your reckoning Messiah was not cut off or killed until 4 days after the 483 years ended.
That is a problem.

The prophecies are all about Jesus.
The OLD TESTAMENT is Jesus centered. Israel was pointing to Jesus the true Israel.
Jesus even said "the Scriptures (OT) testify of him." He showed the disciples on the road to Emmaus
the prophecies from Moses and all the Prophets tat they testified of Him! Paul said "All promises find their yes in Him!
Follow the Lamb.
3am

Brother, although most of what you say is true, Jesus is not the "true Israel"...in a way you are correct : because it is "the Body of Christ" (....corporate believers with Christ in them). The Bible teaches us that the church is spiritual Israel. Yes many prophecies are about Jesus, but some are about Physical Israel and some are about spiritual Israel.
If what I am saying is confusing, then remember that there are prophecies about Christ manifesting in His body as well. As I wrote about previously: The prophecies about the branch is about the bride of Christ.

All promises are yes in Him (the Word of God) if you stand on the Word , you are "in Christ" and you are "walking in the Spirit" .

Remember the Bible is about Jesus and His bride (ultimately) and prophecy deals with all of that.

C

Here is what Jesus was sent to do:

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord. Luk 4:43 But he said unto them, I must preach the good tidings of the kingdom of God to the other cities also: for therefore was I sent.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure. Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work. Joh 6:38 For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.Joh 7:16 Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me.

Joh 17:18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world......... preach good tidings to the poor:............... proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, ......................Joh 19:30 ............ he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

He finished what He came here to do. All is done.
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me ]to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, ...........we are all healed, all delivered, all our needs are met....only FAITH is needed to activate the promises. ONLY FAITH. He said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.

ISRAEL did not bring forth the correct FRUIT that GOD was looking for, so, .........God sent His Son, and .............that SON produced good FRUIT,..............
and that SON started the CHRISTIAN church, and that CHURCH produced the proper FRUIT.

that SON took away the sins of the world.

there's more than one ISRAEL.
1. the Spiritual Israel, who believes God, and is saved, and has a "circumcision of the heart".
2. the Physical Elect nation Israel, whom GOD still loves, not because they are righteous (they aren't), but they are loved for Abraham and Jacob's sake, and they have the "Physical circumcision of the Physical flesh".

I assumed that it is taken for granted that if the prophecies are about Christ and the church is the body of Christ then the church is included.
But the church does not exist without Jesus.
So while I will take more care to be more precise, I do not withdraw the fact that it is all about Christ.
As you quoted Paul, "All promises are yes in Christ." The only way we take part in the inheritance is "In Christ."
No argument here.
3am

Peter disagrees.
1 Peter 1:10-12 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Peter said that the Spirit revealed the Gospel to the prophets and they spoke of the grace that was to come to the church, including all the glories that would follow the sufferings of Christ.

Stephen even referred to OT Israel as the church!
Acts 7:38 (KJV) This is he [Moses], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.

God knew that national Israel was going to fail and he had a plan all ready to put into action.
A plan he knew would not fail.
And he revealed it in advance through out the entire OT to anyone who was open to the Spirit.
All of the promises He made to Israel would be fulfilled In Christ.
Just let the NT explain the OT and it is crystal clear.

More to come on the 70 weeks and the cross. I am out of time for now.
3am

Thanks.

so, .........show me in the OT or the 4 Gospels .........where the Elect nation Israel was told about the Church ......or the Church Age.

it isn't in there.

did Isaiah predict/reveal the coming of the Christian Church, or the 2000 year "times of the gentiles"...........No.



ALL THAT ISRAEL knew about ........was the 70 weeks (490 years) after the decree...........

after the 70 weeks, .......the transgression is finished, to seal up sin, to make expiation for sin, to bring in everlasting righteousness.................that's all that the Jews were told:......... the 70 weeks were DECREED UPON DANIEL'S PEOPLE (THE JEWS).

Why weren't the gentiles included in the 70 weeks prediction?

the "times of the gentiles" are another story.

when a few Jews accepted Christ , (Acts2), ........they were "in Christ" (the NT better Covenant), ......and "in Christ", there is neither male nor female, slave nor free, barbarian nor Greek, "JEW NOR GENTILE".

when those few Jews became Christians ("neither Jew nor gentile"), they were no longer "Daniel's people",, and the 70 weeks did NOT apply to THEM.
Just as ,.......the 70 weeks do not apply to the Christian Church (the times of the gentiles).



i'm so glad that this is not complicated. ..............(joking)






1 Peter and Acts were written AFTER Jesus died,..........and the Elect nation Israel (the ones who rejected Christ) didn't believe 1 Peter and Acts.

they willfully and maliciously rejected the NT.

I am also in agreement.

I would like to know , what those promises are and how they are "yes" in Christ (from your understanding)

C