Here's another thought l came across while reading the Balance Bible code again;



http://www.bible-codes.org/bible_prophecy_...nce-Psalm18.htm

Something is bothering me. When John sees the Whore of babylon, he seems awestruck .


Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

How do others interpret this?

I think it is very significant.

I think the fact that she is a whore is significant. The imagery is supposed to be of something very alluring and utterly corrupt. Tasty on the outside , filthy on the inside.

Why would john be gobsmacked by it, unless it is supposed to indicate something very deceptive.........a visual deception.........a great delusion........capable of deceiving the very elect...someone like John even.

What a great Word Chris! This is exactly what I have been saying for years. The Lord can teach more in a few short minutes with a humble heart..... than we can learn from studying for years in the quest for knowledge and wisdom! Thank you for you post... it spoke loudly!



Your Friend in Christ,

Val

Messiahiscoming

I hope to say something about women's hair, Angels, Revelation, and headwear......and perhaps mention the code too.

Pray for me Miki, that I say the right thing.



A starter for 10.

Is the desire of Angels sexual or for something else?

i.e. carnal or spiritual?

Well...God uses our mistakes too. Weaves them together into revelation as we go forward in humility.
_________________________________________________


Google News:


A Canadian navy vessel plucked one Yemeni soldier from the Red Sea after a volcanic eruption on a small island in the Red Sea. ...

Isn't this a strategic location for an Island...

John had seen astounding things,............
the sick cured
the lame walked
the blind see
the loaves and the fishes
the water into wine
Lazarus was raised
Christ (God) died, and was raised
talking in tongues
the gentiles got saved!


and then, the WHORE..........
VERY ASTOUNDING TO JOHN!

Why?

the Church had morphed into the Whore (or maybe more accurately said, a COUNTERFEIT OF THE (TRUE) CHURCH had morphed into a WHORE!)

and the Whore was persecuting/killing Christians

how could such a terrible thing happen?..............it's super-natural...........satan-power

and God allowed ANTICHRIST AND THE WHORE to over-power the Christians!

Why?
How?
Where is the POW'R OF THE HOLY GHOST?

WHY, GOD?


answer: it's to test our faith.

I'm not sure if you're replying to me or not Miki.



Island called Tayr..Tyre.geddit?

Dennis, I agree with you, although the verse may even be saying more than this.
John doesn't just wonder, he wonders with great admiration!

Sounds to me like he is visually taken in, visually duped, which is of course what whores aim to do.
Like a shop-window with fine goods, but inside the shop its all fake tat.

6I also saw that the woman was drunk, [drunk] with the blood of the saints (God's people) and the blood of the martyrs [who witnessed] for Jesus. And when I saw her, I was utterly amazed and wondered greatly.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...amp;version=45;

i like the amplified bible best.

I don't, it seems to emasculate the sense of the Greek.

Thaumazo - to marvel at , is used many times in the NT to mean exactly that , marvel at, wonder at in admiration.

Going back to angels!!

My question wasn't rhetorical, honestly.......anyhow, looks as if I'll have to answer it myself.

The question about angels is a serious one. I am sure somewhere it has been suggested that woman have to cover their heads in Church so the angels don't get excited, but obviously that won't do. So why




I think you have to take a few things into consideration. Firstly



A woman's hair is her glory, or as we say 'her crowning glory'.

So effectively she has to cover her glory to protect it from the angels.
But what does this mean?



The woman and her head are actually an image of Christ and the Church.
Her head being Christ.
Therefore the Glory constituted by her hair is the Glory of Christ.

If you read 1 peter 1 in this light it takes on a greater meaning.


Its quite a complicated passage, but essentially it refers to our Salvation as the Coming in Glory of Jesus, when Jesus returns in Glory to reign, and his Saints with him. Jesus' Glory, his reign as head of the Church, is symbolized by the woman's hair. The fact that it is covered tells us that its full meaning is not meant to be disclosed. Yet. That is where the angels come in........they desire to look into Scripture, and by the same token they desire to know more about Jesus' return in Glory. But they can't, because its meaning is withheld.

Who can open the Seal? Who can explain the meaning? Only Jesus.

The Book of Revelation is full of code and withheld meaning.

Interestingly the woman in Shekel's code appears to have no head covering.

Well Miki I had to share this with you just because of what I had told you back last week....



Anyway I had to post my dream in light of all that the Lord has been showing me concerning the symptoms and Labor of the birthing process.

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...mp;#entry123141

I took a nap today and while I was sleeping I had this dream..... I believe I know what it means but I would like to hear what others might think. So here it is...

In my dream I felt like I was about 7 or 8 months pregnant. All of a sudden I just had the baby.... no birth pains no labor just BAM the baby was lying on the floor. I did feel the baby being delievered but it waws normal delievery. I knew that the baby had came early and felt that I was around 8 months along. I started telling my husband and those that were around to call 911. But they just seemed to not even pay any attention to me. It was not that they did not hear me but they just were acting like it was not a big deal. Finally I did get them to call 911 but when the ambulance got there they just sat there like it was not a big deal. Finally I just starting cursing and yelling to get them to hear me.. I remember even biting my husbands arm so he would just wake up and and see the seriousness of it and to take me to the hosptial. I remember one of the ambulance workers.... looked at me as though he understood... but just continued to sit there with all the rest. Then I woke up.

Just wondering if someone might have a clue....
___________________________________________________________________________________


Oh and I found it interesting that my water did not break until the baby was coming out.... I know this is graphic but the water.. baby... and placenta all gushed out at the same time. Whew.... I have had this on my mind all day.

Anyway Miki ... or anyone else maybe you have some thoughts.

Val
Messiahiscoming

Marcus...I was addressing you. That's an interesting interpretation and l bet you've been chewing it a while. She does have a veil in the picture?



What do you think?

Also...The song by Moore was from the commentary section of the Blue Letter Bible...humm...blue letter

Anyway. It seems at least someone is looking and marveling over the shed blood of the saints...so many willing to lay there lives down. Not actually marveling over the whore but probably being amazed at the entire thing. I'm sure the fellow who wrote 'Holy Manna" was thinking about more than Rev. when he wrote the song. but we should look at more than the whore when we look through the prophets vision.
___________________________________________________________________________

Val.. One of the things l've been thinking about concerning the third trimester is that the baby is able to live outside of the womb at that time. In my dream l was around 7 months.

I also think about the time being shortened? Is that your take on it?

There's probably some personal urgency here as well.. In one of my dreams l was trying to tell my family. They were just sitting there on a pile of lumber acting like it was no big deal. I think of a phrase
Shekel used about the Geneva Peace Treaty; http://www.bible-codes.org/Geneva-peace-tr...nant-Israel.htm



Stulified and bewitched... humm..
When you post that smilie it says "mellow." It may be a word ?
And we also must say there is a lot of fear here. Not cowardess...but fear.
Let the fear of the Lord be greater...!




We try to warn don't we...


But l would like to hear what you have to say Val...

I took a look at this bible code picture and noticed that the scripture verses on it are only partial scripture verses. I don't understand what it is supposed to mean. There are just many scripture verses that are put
together that have a picture drawn on them, how is this a hidden code in the Bible?

Im not saying one way or another what it is, I just dont understand. Is there someone that can illuminate?

In Christ,
Chris

It's not easily put in a nutshell. I'd suggest you go to the bible-codes.org website and begin a study.

This morning while sitting here at the hospital this verse came to my mind.

Isaiah 66:7

7Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.



Your Friend in Christ,

Val

Messiahiscoming

I'm not sure what you're implying Miki.
Anyway, sticking strictly to Revelation, and not what we would like it to say!

I'm not implying...I'm just wondering our loud. http://bible.cc/revelation/17-6.htm

That can be a confusing statement but most commentaries refer to it thus...In fact all refer thusly to it:



Pregnancy and giving birth is a general figure and can apply to many different situations.

So understanding the context is important.

It could be a pre prophetic plea... Don't you see what's about to happen!!

But how specific do we want to get with our dreams? They are dreams...prophetic at times and mixed at times and sometimes just a jumble. But if they provoke us to look into the word then that's a good thing.

Excellent timing Miki.

It is fascinating that a religion which counts over a billion followers, (and which often doesn't even deign to name itself after its founder), counts itself as Christian, when for the last 500 years many voices have been raised against it like Matthew Henry's.

If the Whore is the Catholic Church, my goodness, we'd better wake up.
If it isn't, we need to open our eyes wider.

--------------------------------------------------------

Something else I would now wish to say, and I'll start with a rhetorical question.

Is the Bible its own Interpreter?

Now there's an interesting thought...

"In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God."

The reason why I ask is that its one of those things you hear or read, and it sounds like a Truth, you can put it into practice, and it seems like a truth, but in actual fact, it is probably no more than a half truth.

the Bible being its own interpreter really means that for every question raised by Scripture, there is an answer embedded in Scripture.

Thus, 'Who is the Whore of Babylon?'
Answer, ' Rev 17 V 18 '

and so forth. Any attempt to answer a biblical question by cross-referencing other scriptures is an example of this.


If the bible was its own interpreter, then it would avoids all those annoying add-ons, like History.
Trouble is, I don't think you can.

Scripture will interpret scripture, but its only half or three-quarters of the picture, and if you leave out the rest of the picture, you're in trouble.

An easy way to understand this is to think of prophecy. You may have been told that prophecy is about encouragement, and nothing to do with foretelling future events. Cod.
Prophecy is primarily about foretelling future events or a future event. The Prophets foretold Jesus.

When we think of the OT prophecies, they all seem so simple, they foretell Jesus coming, but only with the benefit of hindsight are we able to see this.
Actually they are not at all simple. When Jesus quotes Isaiah in the temple, he has to uncouple the text. Only he is able to do this (The Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy). If you read Isaiah 61, there's no way you are going to know that the prophecy is not all of a piece.

Prophecy foretells future events, but often in such a way that you can only really understand the prophecy after the event. The people of Israel anticipated a Messiah, but they also had notions about him that were incorrect, primarily because the prophecies gave them only an opaque view of what was to come.

Once Jesus' Coming had happened, we are able to read through the prophecies and see which are completed, and which still await completion.

Ultimately, what this means is that unless the Holy spirit completely explains everything to us in Prophecy, a lot of it we will only understand with the benefit of hindsight.....or history, whichever you prefer to call it.
Now we see through a glass darkly........


Unfortunately, if you don't have a good grasp of History, you will struggle to make sense of scripture.
That may be why Peter says:



If you aren't learned about the history of the Roman Catholic Church, how can you know whether or not she is represented by the Whore?

And that brings me to the substance of Revelation. Revelation is a a document of FUTURE events.


Once we pass the letters to the Churches, it is a prophecy of future events:




The trouble with future events in prophecy, is that they are very hard to understand before they have happened. I think particularly so with Revelation. I always think of John 21 as a prologue to Revelation, because Jesus talks to john about coming to him at a later date (to give him Revelation). Look what happens though in Jhn 21:23. When Jesus talks about this future event, all the disciples get the wrong end of the stick!

If a simple prophecy like this gets misunderstood, how much harder the prophecies of revelation are going to be to understand.

Much of that's true Marcus...but the missing piece amounts to our faith..Our faith fills in the gap...and much of that is like algebra...even though l don't do math l understand some of the principles..How to calculate for missing pieces...And l came across this while randomly reading this morning.

http://www.bible-codes.org/dragon-holocaus...hecy-code-2.htm

Of course Miki. With faith, anything is possible.
Far be it from me to contradict this.

But I think the example of the disciples in John 21 is very illustrative.
They mis-interpret Jesus' words.
And his words aren't that complicated, but they still mis-interpret.

However, once the Event he prophecies has come to pass, and become History, i.e. he appears to John on the island of Patmos, and is recorded in Revelation, we are then much more easily able to make sense of his words.

I think the same principle applies to Revelation itself.
Once the events depicted have taken place, we will understand them a good deal more easily.

At the moment, when you consider the amount of confusion and debate surrounding End-Time Eschatology, (that's a catch all phrase), you can hardly say we've got it in the bag.

I for one haven't, I find myself quite befuddled when I read Revelation to be honest..........but maybe I'm just speaking for myself!!!

Rev 18:24 And in her(The Whore) was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

When we read this, we have to ask ourselves. If the Whore is guilty of ALL that have been slain upon the earth, can the Whore possibly be an institution? Abel was the first person that the Whore killed (according to this scripture)
So when we look at Able and Cain we have to get our lesson about the Whore there, first of all. Killing is first of all against God's Word so it comes as no surprise that the Whore would kill. She is everything that is outside true religion. In Cain, she brought "her own fruit" to offer, and when God rejected this false religion, Cain (inspired by the Whore) killed Able, who brought a true sacrifice.
So any and all false religion (even in the Protestant side) would be the Whore. All who follow not the Word, but religions of men.

Just like Jezebel killed the prophets (She is also a type and shadow for the Whore) the Whore in the end time will again stand up and kill God's people who want to serve Him alone and not the traditions of men.

C

Absolutely. There is no other way.
C

Is the Bible exclusively its own interpreter?

God chooses to use us. He doesn't have to of course but since he wrote it for us he brings us in as participants. It's always easier to comprehend when your involved in the process.

Take the codes for instance. Unless we are hands on, we are only the audience instead of part of the play. It's experiential learning. It has a much greater impact and lends to understanding. It draws us further into understanding the length, breadth and depth of God.

Yes, Miki.

I've been thinking about this very thing lately. Amazing.

God involving us in His plan. How gracious...

Do we follow His example?

What I mean is- do we allow others to "help" us? Does a new mother allow her husband to change the baby's diaper- even if he does it differently than she does? Does a school teacher allow her students to work on a project- gracefully guiding instead of controlling the outcome?

Are those in leadership supporting those they lead by cheering on, delegating, and recognizing other's gifts and other's abilities? 10 people can look at something (like a novel) and they will most definately see it 10 different ways. God has made it so we have to depend on each other just like we depend on Him to get a fuller picture.

Are we so concerned with being right and having it "our way"? Isn't that just a form of control? Doesn't this go against the Lord's way of sharing, delegating, of humility???

Ephesians 3:2 says:

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me...

This word- dispensation- literally means:

1. specifically, the management, oversight, administration, of other's property
2. the office of a manager or overseer, stewardship

Talk about delegating. The Lord has given us the HUGE responsiblity of managing the GRACE of JESUS CHRIST!!!

Surely we then can allow our children to be who they were made to be- when we have this as our example.

Surely when we lead we can give out responsibilities to others... instead of hording all of it because of fear.

When we EQUIP others instead of leading by dictatorship... vision can explode.

God is so merciful to allow us, broken and fallen people, to be used. He gives and shares... so that we might feel part of the family. Praise be Jesus. Lord, allow me to do the same.

Good word Ms.Julie! I agree with you girl.
I sure have missed you sweetie!

Love ya,
Valerie

Messiahiscoming

I miss you too, Val!

Yes, if we cannot see it anywhere else in the Bible (in a type or shadow or mention) it is not to be taken as a correct interpretation.

Deu 19:15 ...........at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall a matter be established.
So we have to get confirmation about any doctrine in the Word itself. Its useless to grope around in our human "wisdom" trying to decipher God's Word. It laughable to think that we can even think that we can, yet we do think we can.
We must approach the Word with respect and pray and wait for God to reveal what HE wants us to know. HE gives us "hidden manna" , plus its conditional :
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches. To him that overcometh, to him will I give of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and upon the stone a new name written, which no one knoweth but he that receiveth it.

If we do not do that we get what has happened through all the ages. Somebody gets a "revelation" and some think "Oh, that sounds good, it actually makes sense......lets go for it" and BANG , a new doctrine enters and that is why we are so full of it, these day.
People do not respect the Word as the only source but try within themselves to "figure it out" Its useless, it wrong and it is not of God.
C

just am afterthought: even this very thing that I am telling you is in the Bible more than once:
Here it is again in the NT:
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. At the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every word be established.
So now I can take that as doctrine from the Word. I need to find more than ONE verse that speaks about any matter.

I agree C, but conditionally.


How do you think about Jesus on the Mount of Olives, or Daniel's visions.

Nowhere else in the bible do we read about the empires Daniel describes, nowhere else do we read about the First Holocaust, AD 70.

Jesus is an historical figure, history is publically shared understanding.
No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation.

So where do you go from here?

You must understand that it is talking about doctrine. The Bible tells us not to believe a doctrine if we cannot see it in two or three places in the Word.

Prophecy on the other hand, you will see that the Bible ALSO gives us ways to interpret.You have a "surface story" or "letter" and then you must ask for the "spirit of prophecy" God talks in pictures> He uses things like mountains (mountain of the Lord=His Kingdom) He uses "woman" when He speaks of church or other religious groups (harlot....still a woman, but not pure church, "virgin" ) He speaks of grass and sea and waters and actually He is talking about people. He writes about "beasts" when He is actually talking about the "old man" within.

Look : Here is an small example where more that one of these happens:

ALL of these "pictures" or "types and shadows" are also elsewhere repeated and can be confirmed "by two or three witnesses" (By the way, that is why God is sending out TWO groups in the end times, Church and saved remnant of Israel, to testify to the world, also Jesus sent the disciples out "two by two" because the Word cannot be broken and they were again "types" of things to come)

Exo 19:11 and be ready against the third day(That is where we are now); for the third day Jehovah will come down in the sight of all the people(this is not only the coming on the clouds, but also IN His people) upon mount Sinai. (Kingdom of God)
Exo 19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death: (No flesh can enter the Kingdom, we have to die to self before we can start to climb the mountain) Exo 19:13 no hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast (This is a double picture: 1; the fact that the Bible tells us that the unsaved man is equal to a beast tells us this is talking about the "beast within that will die if it touches the mountain. 2: It also speaks of our safety in the tribulation , because the Beast CANNOT come into the Kingdom )or man,(speaking of the "old man' ) he shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long,(Picture of the Word going out. Air (same word for spiritroo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y). ) becomes sound through a trumpet, the same as words get sound when we speak them) they shall come up to the mount. (kingdom of God)

So all of these "pictures" can be confirmed in other places where they are also used in the same way.Actually most of these are repeated more than just three times.

So we have to learn the "picture language" of the Spirit and that happens when God starts showing us this through His Spirit. I have learnt a lot by studying it through what God has shown other people, plus then, God starts adding to this understanding while you read. You start reading the spirit instead of the letter.

I hope that helps?
C


I do not understand what it is exactly that you are asking ?
C

Knowing were to draw the line between figurative and literal is all important. I like what Bullinger said. Take it literal unless there is something pointed out to you...Like in his publication called "The Ground is Thirsty" Otherwise we can get get into all kinds of trouble interpreting according to our imagination.

But lets not turn the Kjv code into another argument about this. We've been through it over and over again and it always ends up at a stalemate.

simplebaby we can talk about it in Types and images in the Bible.
I agree with Miki, that we must not use our imagination, but that is why I am using Scripture to light up Scripture. No imagination. God always tells us what it means in the Bible.
The mountain piece I spoke about before for instance. Here it is in the NT

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:20 for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned;
Heb 12:21 and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:
Heb 12:22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So, no private little interpretations: Just the Bible shedding light on the Bible.
C

Here's where we start getting into trouble. We begin to have to pick apart each thought one at a time. If you begin to stray on one point it has a ripple affect. Then all we've done is go around in circles.

State plainly C...It's what you seem to struggle to do. l don't want to argue with you but simply draw attention to certain issues for others to see.

It's the all important WHEN he sends out two to testify and who they are and where they've come from. It changes everything.

The thing it always comes back to is that you believe the church...all Christians will go through the tribulation and wrath and won't make it unless they are given supernatural abilities to walk through the fire.

That's what you interpret the Kjv code as saying.

Shekel has some good thoughts on this and l concur...3 seven year periods...or two with the third being separated by the mid point of the two. He talks about it beginning slow/ I see this as tribulation...labor pains. It gets worse and so on..I've been calling the pre 'chastisement'. All my dreams and visions point to this. But in no way do l believe we are here to the end. This is a dangerous position to take with plenty of implications.

I'm digesting what's being said, so can't answer straight away, but am not ignoring the posts.

See, I cannot actually answer you, because you are doing exactly what I say I do not believe it. You "ponder" and try for an answer.
I do not believe anything that I cannot see in the Bible, I also will not tell anybody to look into the Bible in this manner, if I was not sure that it works that way.
Fact is that we are going into this (tribulation ), ready or not.

God in you is supernatural so you make it out as if it is a bad thing. Its not. God is very much still the supernatural God.How do I know that: He tells me so. He is the same yesterday , today and forever. He is the God who protected the Hebrew boys in the furnace. He is the God who opened the Red Sea , He is the One who resurrects the dead and move people from one place to another without moving them in the flesh.He walks on water, move through walls. He says: You will be like me when you see me.

And the church is NOT going through the wrath of God. 1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath,

But we go into the wilderness (tribulation) Rev 12:6 And the woman (church) fled into the wilderness


I am always only saying what I can prove from Scripture. You should know that by now.

Seeing that the Bible tells us that Israel is a type and shadow for the church, you can try as you may, but you cannot move them from Egypt to the Promised Land, without taking them through the wilderness.

Its coming and its coming NOW.


C

Oh brother...

What you interpret something to say doesn't make it proof. It's the same old ageless argument.

What!

I'm not making out any such thing. (shaking head) Everything in it's place.

I would agree, if I was "interpreting" , but if you use the Bible alone to throw light, you are not interpret according to the flesh.

So, if you want to find the rapture, you have to find it somewhere else in Scripture as well . You will have to find it in the old Testament and its placing will have to be the same as where dogma places it; before the wilderness trip of Israel.
or the walls of Jericho must fall before they go around it seven times( seven years) on the seventh day.(Year 2000 ) (You know that the word "times" also means "year" and the word "day" also means 1000 years) So God's people walk for 6000 years around "Jericho" and on the morning of the seventh Millennium, they are going to walk for seven years and trumpets are going to blow and on the last trumpet:

s 6:20 So the people shouted, and the priests blew the trumpets; and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, that the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
Mmmmmmmmmm interesting, seeing that we are TOLD by God that everything spoken about here is a type and shadow of things to come.

But we are going to go off your topic and I do not want that,
Please ignore me, because if you do not, I will have to answer you again

C

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Praise God, at the LAST trumpet, we shall all go.

The Jehovah Witnesses use the Bible only to teach some strange doctrine- they actually pride themselves on not using any other source. One of these Jehovah Witness doctrines is that Jesus was a created being- not Creator. (To which we Christians would appropriately reply with Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 among many other verses: In the beginning God (Elohim- plural) created the heavens and the earth... and... In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God).

David Eells also teaches what Jehovah Witnesses teach: that Jesus was created (see http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=sabs-OBS . Scroll about 3/4 down the page to the teaching series titled Oneness, Trinity or truth?.) The following are excerpts from part one of this teaching:

“The trinity came from Catholicism, it didn’t come out of the bible by the way, it came from Catholicism. God the Father always existed in eternity, always existed in eternity, but the Son did not, The Son had a beginning. The Father had no beginning, the Son had a beginning.

“When I started seeking the Lord about this [the Trinity doctrine], the Lord sent a man to me who had also been a oneness and a Trinitarian and while I was in the oneness church I was arguing with this brother in a room full of people, some were oneness and some were Trinitarian.”

“The Lord actually tricked me into deliverance [from the belief in the Trinity] because the thought came into my head and I accepted it, the thought was ‘you’re not getting anywhere with this guy, what you need to do is set your doctrine down just for a minute and try to look at this thing through his eyes, so you can better understand where he’s coming from.
And I tell you, I no sooner did that than a (demon) spirit went right off the top of my head, there was a presence in me that went right out through the top of my head.”

David testifies how he had renounced his former oneness beliefs (that Jesus was from everlasting to everlasting). Appropriately, people in his church were praying for him. Eells continues his testimony:

"There was one man in the church by the name of Wayne, he was both praying for and talking against David because he had rejected the oneness doctrine. This brother was at home, on the carpet in his living room and stretched out on the floor, he said ‘Lord, I am praying and asking you Lord, don’t let him be deceived, deliver him from that doctrine, don’t let him be deceived. What happened while he was praying was, he was lying on his carpet with his face on the floor, with his hands out straight, kind of like he was lying on a cross, he said ‘David, I don’t know what you got, but you got something because I’ve been praying and the Lord picked me up off the floor, in the air, in the middle of the room, and he said to me, ‘I’m teaching him the true relationship of the Father and the Son.” And then he set him back down on the carpet.”

This sounds like classic demonic manifestations to me... not something God would do. Where is the biblical precedent for levitating?

________________________________________________

Eells continues this entire series... always claiming that he was taught the truth about Jesus being a created being from the Bible ALONE.

He also claims the man-child end times theology and all that you teach, C, comes only from the Bible. ??? Should we trust him at all knowing that he proclaims the above??? I don't think so, C.

Because Jesus being a part of the ETERNAL Godhead is such a major and foundational part of my faith, I cannot take anything that David says seriously. When you start to strip Jesus Christ of deity- I KNOW there is a problem with what you believe. No, I will not believe in Eells' man-child end times theology. Because you, C, teach exactly what he teaches, I can't take what you say seriously either.

A few months ago, I spent a lot of time looking at Eells' teachings. I was confused and frightened- because like most other religions Eells has a huge "works element"- which leads to great fear (Am I good enough? Have I done enough- produced enough "fruit" (as Eells says) to be lucky enough to make it through the tribulation?). The resulting confusion I experienced was horrible- my mind was being attacked. I admit that it was totally my fault to have opened myself up to teachings so foreign to everything I'd ever been taught from men and women of faith. I cried out to God in despair one night. I didn't know it at the time, but it was the Lord who sent a Jehovah Witness to my door the next day. Because I knew this JW lady would do a follow up call to my house, I researched and refreshed myself on Jehovah Witness doctrine. I was shocked by what I read. So much of it lined up with Eells that I knew it was answer to my prayer. Similiarities I observed: calling each other "the brethren"... pulling away from the mainstream to establish their own church... Jesus was "created"...works based...etc. etc. etc. (I won't bore you all with all the parallels). I got another confirmation several days later when I read an article written by someone who had independently reached the same conclusions that I had about man-child theology and Jehovah Witnesses. What a relief it was to be free of it all. That's my testimony. Take it or leave it...

Bottom line, saying and claiming that you use the bible alone means absolutely nothing. There are CULTS that claim this same thing.

Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the church in my opinion. It is about the birth of Christ. I won't even comment on pre-trib or post-trib. I'm frankly tired of arguing about that... all that needs to be said about it has been said hundreds of times on this forum.

I am an experiential learner like you, Miki. Thinking out loud about the things of God without the Bible sitting in front of me doesn't make me less holy... that's the way I learn, the way I was made. I'll read a verse. As I go throughout my day, I ponder what I've read and talk to God- He shows me things as I go. He meets me in the car, in the classroom, late at night in my dreams.

I hate to write stuff like this. I HATE IT. I've put it off for months- because I just simply don't want to DEAL with this doctrinal differences stuff. It just makes my skin crawl. (I wanna get together and sing kum-ba-yah...!) But I finally have spoken up today- because staying silent about something as important as the deity and eternal Being of Christ is really not an option for a Spirit filled believer.

I love you Julie!



Your twin,

Valerie

I love you too Val!

It's nice having a twin.

Maybe people should read the whole "trinity" teaching before judging. Cutting and pasting is so deceptive, because we can leave so much relevance out., Like the finer point of Scripture that gets left out here.

I also remember David saying that it is not a salvation issue, and that if people disagree its OK. It will not keep you from God.Its not a doctrine he promotes, but an opinion, and that is clear.

The Bible IS actually very clear on this issue and we DID get it from the Catholics, like so many other doctrines. Just because something rocks our boat, does not make it wrong, it suggests that maybe we do not know it all. To stomp off like this, means you cannot ever hear anything new, without shouting :'False Doctrine!!!! " that means you already know it all. Reminds me of some people who did exactly that , by leaving the forum in a huff of " This is a place where false doctrines are preached....I am leaving....close my membership !!" like she really did know it all.


Well we do not know it all. We might think we do , but we actually do not. Some things challenge us and some things asks change of us. Most of all, the cross demands death of self to us . When that happens we can either submit or not.




Well now that you have sorted all this out, you can relax Julie. Its taken a long time for you to get here.

I personally have studied a lot of what David says and the strange thing is that in South Africa its not strange or foreign. The man child here is seen for what it is. We recognize (even in our major churches) that it is the church giving birth to a group. Basically we teach here , the same as what Jesus taught His disciples in John 16 (that the church is the woman.check it for yourself)

I have not found any fearful teachings by Eells, nothing about being "good enough" . In fact he teaches the opposite, that it is not by works, but by grace. He teaches that we should enter into the "rest" of God (Hebrews) and rest from our own works.So where you get "not good enough " from , I really do not know.

Seeing that Jesus Himself tell John that these things are "hereafter" I can only come to the conclusion that you are wanting to believe that it is Jesus , because believing anything else will upset you. That is rather dangerous, because it means that you cannot change.
So how you can so confidently tell people that is the birth of Christ, show that you did not really read this scripture with care. Hereafter, is Jesus (already born, died, resurrected and now in heaven, speaking.....so believe me He is not speaking about His birth to John.......well not the birth through Mary, but definitely the birth through the church)


It does not really matter. You can try an assassinate a mans character, because he is not here to defend himself. Rather bring it against me, I am here and I can talk about what I believe. But be careful when you speak out against those of whom you have no knowledge.

I know that your belief system was challenged. With truth and not with a lie.You told me .You saw and said so. Then the enemy scared you by showing you the price ...............(you also said that.....I can be more specific if you want)

C

I will add> I spoke to Prof. Loots on Thursday. He is a well know theologian here in SA. I mentioned that on this forum , some (not all )people believe that the Man Child is Jesus being born through Mary.
I will give you his exact reply: He laughed and said:" When I hear things like that , it makes the enamel splinter off my teeth."

So just because you do not understand something , does not make it wrong. Out there in the world are many, many people who will not agree with you.

C

Tribulation not equal to wrath. Agree.

Now that that is clear, what's next to explain, cause I don't know what the heck else is being discussed here

Julie,

be at peace with what you have written - because it is honest and from your heart.

you have witnessed. The Spirit will testify to those who search.

There will always be a balance between truth and love. some will force their doctrine ignoring love. some will force their anything-goes-love and ignore truth. The Apostle John was taught by the Lord. Remember he was a son of thunder - wanted to pull down fire from heaven to wipe out a group... wanted to have a high seat of postion in the kingdom... he is known to us today as the Apostle of Love - cuz he vigorously defends truth all the while balancing it with love. The Lord tutored John very well.

your post is in great balance.



me

I love you, my Dani.