I will tell you what is going through my mind.......If a person believes that the rapture could happen anyday. With the realization, based on the prophetic events that are happening today, and that no one knows the day or the hour............It seems that "This is a very strong incentive for one to except the Lord into thier heart today, rather than putting it off until a later time........a lot of people do state:...."Well I am not ready yet"....so in the back of thier mind,...they are saying.....I will except Him.....but not just right now...."I have some worldly pleasures that I want to live out yet"....But yet this person Knows that the Lord will come as a thief in the night, and that the rapture could be any moment!........"VERSES"......The Rapture will not happen until the end of the Great Tribulation..So again,...We have that same person stating....:...."Well I am not ready yet"....so in the back of thier mind,...they are saying.....I will except Him.....but not just right now...."I have some worldly pleasures that I want to live out yet". Because I know that, when I see the A.O.D. come to pass, I'll except the Lord,and that should give me plenty of time to fill my lamp with oil, so that I'll be accounted worthy when the Lord returns.....But, another thought comes into this persons mind.....But!, If I can find myself a jew,...and I feed, clothe,and help them all I can.....I'll be one of the sheep, and I'll get to enter the millenium!......The temptation is there, for one to try to manipulate..There,s gonna be a 7 yr. covenant between Israel and the anti-christ......there's the two wittnesses,.....the A.O.D.........and many signs during that time.....At any point in time during the 70th week of Daniel.....A man or woman could except Jesus at the last moment.....Maybe that person had believed and excepted the Lord at the Beginning of Daniels 70th week.He knows who Jesus is!............But shortly afterwards,...fell into a backslidden condition,...(The temptation is there, he knows an aproximate general time of when the Lord will return!)....The Mark becomes mandatory..he gets caught...But refused to except the mark and therefore was beheaded by the ac......Is that person still saved?....I do know that "TODAY IS THE DAY OF SALVATION" Again.......Is a christian who is living in a lukewarm condition, who had been caught by the ac, and gets his head cutoff for refusing the mark,.....will the Lord still spew him out of His mouth?...Is he still saved? Does the act of refusing the mark cancel out the lukewarm condition?........Does lukewarm mean someone who was on fire for the Lord at one time, and then stopped wittnessing to people, buried the gifts given to him, and just sat around the cross, up unto the time of the rapture, but since he was not on fire for the Lord with that first love....the lord spews him out of His mouth?......During the tribulation period, with all the signs..........Would not one be a fool to not stay pure,by keeping all the commandments of Jesus, and be on fire for the Lord?........................Hey, I am just kicking things around...things to think about,...................................................benny

IMHO,,,,should we tempt God by willingly letting ourselves become lukewarm?

Not accepting the mark is NOT what "gets us into heaven" (sry, not the best way to word it)

Only by the Grace that God extends to us when we give our whole hearts over to him. Only when he is Lord over all,,,,Only when He is our God,are we His people.
IF we loved Him,,,we would accept His son Jesus as our Lord, and subjective ourselves to his authority with all of our hearts. (no reserves)

A lukewarm person,,,is one that may have given their heart to Him,,,,but then took it back.
That followed for a little while,,,and then quit.
That at first said "yes, I will"
but then didnt.
A person who had a reserve.

We are to run a race with the finish in mind,,,,not stop and stay somewhere between.

The person on fire for Christ,,,goes the distance.
while the lukewarm person profanes God's grace and gives a limpwristed handshake of an attempt and gives up.

Just by not accepting the mark is akin to not stealing, not murdering, not lying, not commiting adultry etc............
its the same as feeding the poor,,,shaving the whales,,,recycling your newspaper,,,visiting the sick

Many will say "Lord Lord,,,didnt we do (or not do ) these things in your name,,,,but the Lord knowing that their hearts were far from him,,,will cast them out of his presence.


just my opinion.

Benny, I agree that anyone with eyes to see should get themselves right with the Lord while it is still day. That being said, we can't decide we'd better get in due to conditions. The Lord must first draw us by His Spirit. But when we know these things, He is probably preparing our hearts to receive Jesus as Lord and savior. and his beckoning is likely there. What I'm saying is that salvation isn't mental assent, though it can be there. But rather he ignites that spark of faith that he has given us a measure of, that we may believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and ask him to be our Lord and our savior which we now understand that we stand in need of.

Can a person taste God and spit him out? He said he won't loose any of his. What makes us his?

Just my personal opinion here...but l can't imagine anybody experiencing a personal relationship with Christ and then becoming lukewarm...but we know it happens.. So God knows who belongs to him and who doesn't and he will make a way. But by fire isn't easy.

Jhamner once said, that she likes my style.....In post#1....It is a fact that some people, that we have wittnessed too, Say that they are not ready and will put the Lord off....It does not make sense to me, for someone to become lukewarm during "The Tribulation."..With all with what would be going on in those days.....I am sure you get the picture and my meaning. As far as wittnessing to people,...we all have our gifts and ministries. It is the Lord who is molding us. Each one of us are a unique person. The Lord may use you, insead of me to wittness to a certain group or individual. Some, wittness to people by explaining the signs of the Lords coming and about salvation, and do see results, by them excepting the Lord into their hearts...I personally have brought people to the Lord.......In a forum, there are several sections for many types of topics. Some may only concentrate in one area of Gods Word. Where some may only concentrate on the salvation issue only. But all in all we work together, as one body, some being the foot, the other a hand. The desciples came to the Lord and said something to the effect of;......"Lord!, there's this other group of people casting out demons in your name. And the Lord replied, Hey!,...If they are not against us, then they are for us!.........It is not the first time that I have seen another christian attack another christians method of bringing people to the Lord.....If one does not know the answer to a question.....Then just say, I do not know the answer, that I am still learning......Do not take it personal...agree to disagree, and move on........There are some who get a little disrespectful, Which really there is no need for that to take place and wish that it were not so.......Yes sometimes there are trick questions, but it will force one to think, and get a clearer insight on the subject.....Do not take it personal......pride is bad,bad, bad...............agree to disagree and move on..................................benny

Lord has a lot to say about "LUKEWARM"
I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Revelation 3:15-19 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing' --and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...pid=115278&

Beloved, renew your covenant with Me; stir the flames of desire for Me. I speak to hearts that have been distracted from the pure love and devotion that once burned.

I was praying about something kind of along these lines this morning after hearing John Hagee preach on The Book of Revelation. As much as I personally am interested (as many of us are) on these end-times events, the most important thing we can do as Christians is to keep our focus on God.

Phil Keaggy wrote some lyrics that came to mind, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away, from Thy presence, o LORD, take not Thy Holy Spirit from me, restore unto me, the joy of my salvation, and renew a right spirit within me."

God is the only one who can cleanse us from all unrighteousness (this includes lukewarmness in my opinion) and renew a right (righteous) spirit within each of our hearts. As we submit ourselves to His will and the plans and purposes He has for our lives, we will experience that same joy of our salvation.

Seeing we are the BODY of Christ, we also have a mouth. Lukewarm Christians will leave the body of Christ during the great falling away. That is the "vomiting" that the Lord speaks about.
C

After all we've been through, I cannot see myself ever running away from Jesus.

The story of Jonah comes to mind.

but HE is the Alpha and the Omega...and Peter denied Christ 3 times..I think Wellspring's prayer is very valuable and one I hold to..If two are walking together and one falls the other is there to help pick them back up...in these times is when I beleive God is showing us that we are to stand together and encourage one another...and that when one falls if he only thinks of himself and doesn't help his brother, then he is being selfish and aren't we called to be our brother's helper? That is why it is so important to stay connected to other believers and pray together.I beleive we are.to be our brothers keeper.....for much mercy shown will be mercy received...but the self-righteous will be selfish. We are all selfish by nature...but when the Holy Spirit works in us...it is selflessness. I pray for this, not always the case though...we can pray and God is mighty to do his work within us all. He is a jealous God and his word doesn't come back Void.

People are hungry and they don't even know for what. They have an
insatiable hunger, a void that can't seem to be filled. They try to fill
this void, with food, drugs, sex, alcohol, and money, but nothing can
fill this void. The very thing that they crave is Me. Their natural
minds can't comprehend that I am all they need.

Those who have 'tasted and have seen that I am good' know what this
hunger is all about. But the lost do not understand. So the question is:
will you be bold enough to tell them what their hunger is for and how to
feed this mighty appetite?

If not fed the right food, it will cause people to perish. People die
for a lack of knowledge. The world is screaming and they are dying. It
hurts Me to see that My people die because My children won't take the
time to show them My heart. Take the time to consider the ones that
took the time to share the Kingdom message with you.

Where would you be if it weren't for those men and women who took the
time to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit to share with you? Don't
you remember how you felt to know that not only do people care but also
that I care! Yes, the maker of the universe knows you and took the time
to create the destiny for you. He formed you by his hand and knows your
every detail, even down to knowing the number of hairs on your head.

I have given you of My kingdom, so that you might open the doors and
give the gifts to others the things that you have been able to receive
from Me. People are hungry and they don't understand that I am what
they are hungry for. So feed them with My truth and tell them how to
satisfy their appetite in Me.

some people won't "accept God" because they have great doubt that he will accept them.

Boy Josh...you hit the nail on the head with this one. Some people live their whole lives and perish for the lack of this knowledge. They don't have a personal relationship because they don't understand or feel unworthy.... so they perish in ignorance of this. But God knows them even if they don't know him. A person can believe in him and his works and still not know him. Will you go to heaven? ..I believe yes.

I believe that. It's that or people have a fuzzy belief in God and they're living their life around that fuzzy belief, i.e. "Why, yes. I do believe in a higher power, or a supreme being...," etc.

Either way, I believe it is a murderous spirit that is responsible for clouding hearts and minds. It's a lying and deceiving spirit and it equates to murder.

I will be glad to see that spirit cast into the lake of fire! Yeay!

...as for the lukewarm thing, I would be if God commanded it

read an article over on RR by Ray Brubaker, titled:
Is The Rapture the Reward of Readiness

A portion of which says-

Daniel comments on this coming tribulation. He also refers to it as a purging time. Notice what we read: "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."

As it will be wise virgins that will be ready to meet the coming bridegroom, it is the wise today who know what we are saying--that many will be left behind at the rapture and will go through the tribulation because they were not ready to meet the Lord.

That's why on every broadcast we sound forth the message, "Be ye therefore ready!" That doesn't mean simply to believe on the Lord and live your own life. Rather, it means accept Christ and then live for Him. Do His will. Obey His Word. Give to His work. Be a faithful servant.

In Revelation, concerning those seen coming from heaven on white horses with our Lord Jesus Christ. it is said of them, they are "called, chosen and faithful."

Can you say you are among the "called, chosen and faithful"? Jesus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen." We are also told to make our calling and election sure and an abundant entrance will be given into the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

It's not just calling ourselves Christians. The Laodiceans were Christians. But they were lukewarm Christians. And they are spued out. This doesn't mean there was no more salvation. Rather, they are told to buy gold tried in the fire, meaning there would be the purging and purifying of faith to gain the white robes, for many were never saved in the first place. It was all profession and not possession.

The Bible indicates that before the Lord comes, there will be a great revival in the earth. That revival is the result of preaching this message that many who profess to be Christians will be left behind to go through the tribulation.

As the unfaithful servant was left to outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, many will be unprepared when Jesus comes and they will cry out each day, "Why didn't I live for Christ? .... Why was I left behind?"

There will be churches filled with people studying the Scriptures to discover why they were left behind. And they will find that if they live for the Lord every day amidst great persecution and do not deny their faith or surrender to Antichrist, they can be saved. However, it must be remembered in that day that you can't buy or sell unless you identify with the Antichrist world system.

So the only way you can stay alive is to have some reserve food on hand, be near a water supply, and hope not to be discovered. As Christians housed the Jews in the holocaust, there will be neighbors who will take Christians under their wings and see that they get something to eat rather than for them to starve. It's that kind of a day that is ahead.

Again we declare unto you the Word of the Lord that many will miss the rapture who thought they would make it!

Two will be in the field, one taken the other left. The Greek indicates, "two of the same kind." They both should have gone when the Lord comes, but one is left behind and the other taken.

Our Lord warns us not to be like the servant who says in his heart, "My lord delayeth his coming," and begins to live carelessly. Said Jesus, "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

Here is a servant looking for his lord to come. But because he was not ready, he was "cut in sunder," or as the Greek says, "cut off," and left behind with unbelievers. Here is a believer of a sort left behind with unbelievers.

Now you hear the argument that we are the bride of Christ and when the Lord comes, He won't just rapture the head and leave behind the body.

Well, there's coming a time when that bride will be complete but not until she is without spot and blemish. God must have a pure bride. So if you are looking for the coming of the Lord, the Bible says; He that hath this hope purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

If you are living in sin, you're not ready for the rapture. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

While it is true that God hath not appointed us to wrath, it is also true that on account of uncleanness the wrath of God cometh upon the children of disobedience, and we're warned, "Be not partakers with them."

Listen again to what Jesus says. Here is a parallel passage to Matt. 25 where ten virgins were all waiting for the coming bridegroom. But you know how half of them were left behind. They had gone seeking oil, and while they were gone, the bridegroom came.

Beloved, be sure you have the oil of the Holy Spirit. If you have never surrendered wholly and fully to Jesus Christ, do it now. "No man can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Ghost!" To be ready for the rapture. Jesus needs to be your Lord.

Now here in Luke 12 we read, "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; and ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."

In Matthew 25 we have ten virgins waiting to go to the wedding. Here we are told what happened apparently to those who missed the wedding. They are told now to be ready when our Lord comes back from the wedding.

Then our Lord gives the illustration which reminds us that we are a part of the household of faith. He doesn't use the symbolism of a bride here as Paul does in Ephesians. Listen to what He says:

"Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them."

Now notice the two times of His coming--at the rapture and then at the revelation.

We read: "And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

Did you hear it?

The evidence is that the house will be broken through when Jesus comes. If ministers of the Gospel would be faithful in warning their congregations, they would not find many of their number left behind.

Today we have a cheap grace proclaimed that, regardless how you live, if you profess to be saved, you are ready for the rapture.

Hear me, beloved. This is not what the Apostle Paul preached. He declared the rapture to be a reward to which all should persevere to obtain. Now he did not use the word "rapture," but listen closely and you'll see what I mean.

First of all, let me make it clear to you that what the Bible calls the first resurrection takes place at the end of the tribulation.

Strangely enough, the only ones seen resurrected are those who died during the tribulation, which would have to indicate there was a rapture before the tribulation.

In Rev. 20:4 we read where John says, "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.. ." We then read: "This is the first resurrection."

Now I want you to know that I am not looking forward to that first resurrection. The great number of saints will be in that first resurrection and not in the rapture. That is why it is called THE FIRST RESURRECTION.

On the other hand, the Apostle Paul writes in Phil. 3 of not having his own righteousness but the righteousness of Jesus Christ which is of God by faith, "That I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead."

Was the Apostle Paul questioning that he might not make the resurrection?

No. Here you must understand the Greek, for what Paul was saying was that he "might attain unto the resurrection out from among the dead."

At the time of rapture there will be a selecting out from among the dead those who will be raptured to attend the time of feasting called the marriage supper of the Lamb.

That's why we are told, "Blessed are they who are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

And we're reminded, "His wife hath made herself ready!"

If you' re looking for the rapture, you will have to get ready for it.

Notice again what Paul writes, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after.. . Christ."

This is what God wants to see. He wants to see our heart attitude bent on serving Him. David was a man after God's own heart. He sinned grievously, but in his heart he repented and always wanted to live for God. So Paul says that he hasn't yet attained this goal - he hasn't arrived. But this is his bold objective. Do you see it?

Hear him as he says: "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended; but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."

The "high calling" is better translated "upward calling."

It is a prize to be gained to be caught upward when Jesus comes--when the dead in Christ rise first, and we who are alive and remain are caught up to be with our Blessed Lord." Hallelujah.

Paul says this is a prize to which he presses. So we believe the rapture to be a reward.

Notice, he admonishes, "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Phil. 3:9-15)

Today there is a lot of confusion as to whether the church will go through the tribulation. God promises that if we have a desire to be ready for the coming of the Lord, He will not only get us ready, revealing these truths to us from His Word, but keep us ready by the power of His indwelling Holy Spirit.

I believe if we will walk in the light of His Word and in obedience to His will, the blood of Jesus Christ covers and cleanses us and keeps us ready for His coming.

In I Thes. 5:23-24 we read, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly;, and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"

That's a big assignment. That means the God who will miraculously transform your physical body into the likeness of Christ' s glorified body can preserve you now. That means money you give to the hospital can go to help reach the lost.

You say--you mean God can preserve me---spirit, soul and body?

Indeed He can and He will if you will let Him. The next verse reads: "Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it!"

God, who calls you to be ready for the rapture, says He will do it He will get you ready and keep you ready. All it takes is your willingness to follow the formula that He has laid out in His Word, which we have given to you today.

And your spirit will bear witness to the truth, because this is God's revelation concerning the need of readiness for the rapture which we believe is one of the rewards at Christ's coming.

Finally, if you have a question as to who will be left behind to go through the tribulation, turn to Rev. 7.

We said there were four groups pictured here--those who are raptured who reign with Christ as kings and priests, a select company. Then there are those who die for their faith and the Word of God and are given white robes signifying they are saved during the tribulation but are martyred. Thirdly, mention is made of the 144,000 who are the sealed of Israel, the remnant that will turn to Christ their Messiah and receive the Holy Ghost with the seal of God in their foreheads.

Now, I want you to notice the fourth group. John writes, "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

Verse 13, "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

In consternation he wonders, who is this great multitude which no man could number? He had seen the raptured saints, the martyred who were given white robes, and the remnant of Israel. So he inquires, who are these?

Notice the answer. We read, "And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Do you see it?

Here is a great multitude which misses the rapture.

They go through the tribulation (the great one) GREEK; and amidst the purging, purifying fires they are found washing their robes. They are not given robes, as that would speak of salvation. They already had robes, but their robes were defiled, spotted, and in need of cleansing by the blood of the Lamb. In the midst of tribulation they come clean.

Beloved, hear me. Now is the time to come clean, to separate from the world, to turn from sin, to be made pure and holy.

When the Lord comes, He is coming for His saints.

The word "saint" in the Greek is the same word for a sanctified person, who is separated unto God, a holy person. That's why we're told to follow peace and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

To sum up, let me read from G. Campbell Morgan who says:
Quote:
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"Personally, I am convinced that not all Christian people will be taken to be with Christ on His Return, but only those who by the attitude of their lives are ready for his appearance."
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Today's message is one that needs to be preached in every evangelical church in America. Too long have we been under the delusion that it doesn't matter how we live so long as we profess faith in Christ. We're cautioned lest what we do be seen as works, and reminded that works do not save us.

The truth is, we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. But when our Lord comes, He says He will reward every man according to his works.

And He doesn't see us as saved and unsaved.

Rather, He divided humanity into four divisions--

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And behold, I come quickly;, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.. . And be ye therefore ready also, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of man cometh." link .................................................benny

Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. Mat 14:19 And he commanded the multitudes to sit down on the grass; and he took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake and gave the loaves to the disciples, and the disciples to the multitudes.
Mat 14:20 And they all ate, and were filled: and they took up that which remained over of the broken pieces, twelve baskets full.
Mat 14:21 And they that did eat were about five thousand men, besides women and children.Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. .............. Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?Luk 18:8.




I guess very little . Because if Christians tell Christians that the ONLY WAY to stay alive is to trust in your reserves, then I guess they have no faith. You shall know them by their fruit. That is the problem: The "church" has lost its faith in the faithfulness of God.

And you LISTEN to such a man as you teacher.??????

C

"That revival" could also be as a result of this: http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=hm10

(I just thought I'd throw a little balance of ideas into the mix.)

In Christ,

Mike

Answers to Post-Trib Questions


People who believe in a post-tribulation rapture offer several arguments against a pre-tribulation rapture. Listed below are some answers to their questions.

Argument #1: "The Bible doesn't teach there will be two second comings. What right do you have to split the second coming into two events?"

In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah-one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these Scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah-the first coming as a suffering Messiah and the second coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted and they don't match. These two descriptions of Jesus' coming point to two separate events we call "The Rapture" and "The Second Coming." "The Rapture vs. The Second Coming" Bible study.

Argument #2: "Jesus said the rapture would occur immediately after the tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31) when He sends for the angels to gather His elect."

The event in Matthew 24 is not the rapture for several reasons:

1. Christians will receive resurrected bodies at the rapture (1 Cor. 15:51-53). If we are in resurrected bodies like Jesus, we will be able to ascend just like Jesus did when He ascended (Acts 1:9). Why would we need angels to gather us when our bodies will have the same capabilities as angels (Matt. 22:30)? The angels are gathering the elect-those who have been saved after the rapture who are in their natural bodies.

2. The angels also gather the wicked at this time (Matt. 13:38-43, 49-50).

3. If you make the argument that the angels gathering the elect in Matt. 24 is the rapture, then you will have to claim the angels gathering the wicked in Matt. 13 is also the rapture. Of course, no one believes the wicked are raptured at the second coming.

4. The angels are sent forth to gather both the righteous and the wicked together for the judgment of the nations (Matt. 25:31-48). These are all people in their natural bodies, not resurrected bodies. The wicked will be cast into the lake of fire, while the righteous will enter into the millennial kingdom.

Argument #3: The rapture will occur at "the last trumpet" (1 Cor. 15:52), meaning at the second coming.

The last trump is a term used for the last trumpet blown during the Feast of Trumpets. The rapture will be the fulfillment of the Jewish Feast of Trumpets:

"The 'last trump' refers to the Feast of Trumpets and the Jewish practice of blowing trumpets at this feast each year. During the ceremony, there is a series of short trumpet blasts of various lengths, concluding with the longest blast of all, called the tekiah gedolah: the great, or 'last trump.' Judaism connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead, and so does Paul. Paul's point here is that the Rapture will be the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets. [Arnold Fruchtenbaum, "A Review of The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church" (Tustin, CA:Ariel Ministries), p.58]

Argument #4: "The pre-tribulation rapture was invented by those who afraid to go through persecution."

The pre-tribulation rapture position doesn't teach that Christians will escape persecution. Jesus said the world would hate us (John 15:18). The rapture will occur at a separate time than the second coming because God has different programs for the Church and Israel. God has not destined the Church for the wrath that will be poured out during the tribulation (1 Thess. 5:8).

Argument #5: "Paul said in 2 Thess. 2:1-9 that the rapture wouldn't occur until the antichrist is revealed."

Paul is speaking of the day of the Lord (the Tribulation), not the rapture. Paul is showing the relationship between the rapture (v.1) and the day of the Lord (v.2).

First, the day of the Lord refers to the Tribulation period, not the rapture.

The "day of the Lord" doesn't mean a 24-hour day, but a time period of judgment (Isa. 2:12, 13:6,9, Ezek. 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14, Amos 5:18, 20) The Thessalonians were shaken and disturbed because someone had deceived them into believing the Tribulation Period had begun. Paul said the antichrist must be revealed before this happens. When the antichrist confirms a covenant with Israel, he will be revealed, beginning the 7-year Tribulation period.

Second, if the Thessalonians believed in a post-tribulation rapture, shouldn't they be rejoicing? If the Thessalonians had been taught a post-tribulation rapture, they would have been rejoicing because the beginning of the Tribulation was evidence the post-tribulation rapture was near. They wouldn't be disturbed or alarmed because this is what they would have expected-to go through the Tribulation.

But we find the Thessalonians were disturbed. Why? Because if the Tribulation period had begun, it meant they missed the rapture. This is why Paul writes them about the rapture (v.1), then explains that the Tribulation period begins when the antichrist is revealed. Because that hadn't happened yet, they didn't miss the rapture.


.........................................benny

Thanks Benny, for this opportunity;


I wonder why they cannot see that "wrath " and 'tribulation" are two words

Why did God bother to use two words if He was trying to say the same thing.

He should just have said tribulation hey ? oh dear, now He added the word wrath and they somehow want the two to be the same
No wonder they are in confusion. They are desperately trying to bring two different events into one.

Good idea is to go and look at what " day of the Lord" really means and then go and see that "tribulation" is not "wrath" it is "tribulation'
Kind of what Israel had in the desert God's people in tribulation. Not a foreign idea in the Bible at all.
Now "wrath" is a different matter. I am not staying for that, because I am not destined for it. Tribulation however, I can face , because God has always been with His people in tribulation (but not in wrath)

C

Speaking of the anti-christ,......The Word of God says that by peace he shall destroy many.......From what I read,the anti-christ will confirm a 7 year peace at the beginning of Daniels 70th week.....and thru that peace agreement, will destroy many.....As I see it..."Wrath" had begun at the beginning of Daniels 70th week.....not after. That is why it is called "The Time of Jacobs Trouble"...........There is the wrath of the anti-christ(Satan)...and there is the wrath of God........But no matter how you slice and dice it.....Wrath is Wrath...........................benny

Thanks Benny: No tribulation is tribulation and God's wrath is His wrath.
C

G3709
ὀργή
orgē
or-gay'
From G3713; properly desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), that is, (by analogy) violent passion (ire, or [justifiable] abhorrence); by implication punishment: - anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

G2347
θλίψις
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
From G2346; pressure (literally or figuratively): - afflicted, (-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

See? it matters how you cut it.
C

Thus the stage is being set for the fulfillment of an amazing prophecy: "And in the days of these kings (represented by the ten toes) shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed... it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms" (Dan 2:44).

Christ's birth in Bethlehem came at the precise time God had planned (Gal. 4:4) and, like His death, was intimately related to the Roman Empire. Likewise the revelation of the Antichrist will be at a pre-ordained time (2 Thess. 2:6) and will require the presence of the revived Roman Empire.

It is only fitting that the evil Empire which crucified Christ should be revived so that He can destroy it at His Second Coming.

We have previously given numerous reasons why the church must be raptured at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period. Once the dominant believe among evangelicals, the pre-trib rapture is falling increasingly into disfavor.

The latest attack upon this belief is found in Marvin Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church: A New Understanding of the Rapture, the Tribulation and the Second Coming. " This book's novel ideas cannot be supported by Scripture, and Rosenthal's attempts to do so create numerous contradictions.

Nevertheless, we have received so many letters asking about the book from people who were swayed by it that a brief critique seems necessary.

Rosenthal, long a confirmed pretribulationalist, has abandoned that position and "now believes that the Church will have to endure the persecution of the Antichrist." His basic thesis is that the church will "not escape all of the oppression of the 'Tribulation' period, "but" will escape the wrath of God, which will be poured our...during the second half of the 'Tribulation' period."

Numerous problems immediately arise. Since the Antichrist, according to Rosenthal, must appear first, the church is no longer watching and waiting for Christ but for Antichrist. Moreover, even after the Antichrist takes control of the earth the church cannot look for Christ until she has suffered considerably under that "Wicked" one.

If Rosenthal is correct, then one can no longer expect Christ at any moment. Imminency has been lost, and with it the "blessed hope" that sustained believers for centuries.

If the church must remain on earth to face Antichrist, then Christians would refuse to take his mark or to worship his image. As a result, they would all be put to death. We are told: "And it was given unto him (Antichrist) to make war with the saints and to overcome them...and he(the false prophet) had power to...cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed...and that no man might buy or sell, save (except) he that had the mark...of the beast...(Rev. 13:7, 15-18)

Clearly the church, Christ's bride, must have been removed, for the Antichrist could not make war with and overcome her against whom our Lord said, "the gates of hell shall not prevail" (Matt 16:18).

Then who are these "saints?" They can only be those who have not come under the strong delusion (2 Thess 2:10-12) because they previously never heard and rejected the Gospel.

Millions will believe in Christ during the Great Tribulation - and they will pay for their new-found faith with their lives. John tells us: "After this I beheld...(in heaven) a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues...before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:9-14)

A "pre-wrath rapture" would hardly be a "blessed hope." In fact, it would be a non-event, for there would be few if any Christians left alive to rapture at that time. Could any Christian take Antichrist's mark and thus survive to be raptured? Indeed not! Revelation 14:9-10 makes it clear that those who "worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark" will be consigned to hell.

In building his unbiblical thesis, Rosenthal falls into a number of other errors. He insists that 2 Peter 3:10-11 "is not talking of total annihilation of the earth" because Peter earlier said that the world of Noah's day "perished," yet it was not totally annihilated.

The analogy fails, for Peter includes in the future judgment the heavens, which he specifically says "shall pass away with a great noise" while the very elements of which all is composed "shall melt with the fervent heat." It certainly sounds like the destruction of the entire universe, during which "the earth also and the works therein shall be burned up."

In its place, God will create a "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness" (v13). It is gross error to interpret specific language calling for the complete consumption by fire of the entire universe as merely a surface cleansing of the earth because that was what happened at the flood. He also suggests that this "cleansing of the earth" will take place before the Millennium whereas Revelation
21 clearly places it at the end of the Millennium.

Rosenthal goes to the non-canonical book of Maccabees to try to prove that the "falling away" that Paul refers to in 2 Thess 2:3 is a Jewish apostasy and has nothing to do with the church. Yet Paul is writing to Christians, not to Jews. He has already given warning many times about the coming "falling away," as have Peter and Jude.

They repeatedly refer to apostasy among professing Christians. The writer to Hebrews deals with the same theme in chapter 6. To suggest that because the book of Maccabees refers to a Jewish apostasy, this is then what Paul is talking about, is insupportable. Most of those whom Paul was addressing at Thessalonica were converted Greeks who would have no reason to associate "apostasy" with an incident in Jewish history involving Antiochus Epiphanes, a story they probably didn't even know.

Moreover, Israel was already in apostasy when Paul was writing: she had rejected and crucified her Messiah and was persecuting Christians. So to suggest that Paul is declaring that some future apostasy is coming to an already apostate and unbelieving Israel is illogical.

One error leads to another. The author asserts that signing the pact with the Antichrist "will be Israel's great apostasy" (pp. 205-207). That an already spiritually apostate Israel would be going into apostasy by signing a political/military pact with the world ruler again makes no sense. Moreover, Paul says that the apostasy precedes the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess 2:3). To avoid the obvious contradiction of having Israel sign a pact with Antichrist before he's been revealed, Rosenthal proposes a new meaning for "revealed."

He says that it doesn't mean when Antichrist steps from obscurity into power, but when he puts his image in the temple and Israel recognizes that he is the Antichrist. Yet Paul says that the Antichrist will be revealed not through the placing of his image in the temple, but when "He who now hinders (i.e. the Holy Spirit in Christians)...is taken out of the way..." (2 Thess 2:7,8).

How could apostate Jews who have rejected Christ be hated of all nations for Christ's names sake?! It is one thing to recognize that the Antichrist is evil, and something else entirely to believe that Jesus is the Christ. That will only happen to Israel when He appears to rescue her at Armageddon (Zech. 12:10).

Rosenthal suggests that "the Antichrist is a man who lived before...He will literally be raised from the dead: (p.208). In fact, he suggests that this man ruled an ancient kingdom that impacted Israel, so he has been dead for at least 2,500 years. Marvin tries to proves this "resurrection" from the Scripture which says "I saw one of his heads a though it were wounded to death" (Rev 13:3. Not to recover from what seemed to John "as though it were" a mortal wound is a far cry from bringing back to life a totally decomposed 2,500-year-old corpse!

He then uses the same scripture to say that this man will suffer a mortal head wound in the middle of the 7-year pact with Israel and be raised from the dead. By what rule of exegesis does one prove two contradictory theories from the same scripture? Lack of space prevents dealing with the many other errors in "The Pre-wrath Rapture."

Christ's repeated warnings that He would come at a time when one would least expect Him (Matt. 24:44; Luke 12:40, 21:34-36) cannot be reconciled with Rosenthal's thesis. Surely as Antichrist's persecution and slaughter of the church proceeded, the dwindling number of surviving Christians would long for and expect the rapture.

Yet Christ depicted conditions upon earth during the last moments before His catching away of His bride as a time of such ease and boredom that: "While the bridegroom tarried they all (even the five 'wise' virgins) slumbered and slept" (Matt 25:5). Either Christ was mistaken or Rosenthal is.

Even though God's wrath had not yet been poured out, a church that was enduring Antichrist's wrath, involving the most vicious persecution and slaughter of Christians in history, would not be sleeping any more than a church that found itself in the midst of Armageddon! Rosenthal's "Pre-wrath" theory thus suffers from the same contradictions as a "post-trib" rapture. Much of the Christmas scene promotes false concepts that will help Antichrist pretend to be "Christ." The promise of "Peace on earth" announced by the angels at the birth of Christ will not be realized until He personally reigns from David's throne in Jerusalem as the prophets foretold.

Be not deceived by any call for a "new world order" that promises peace without the presence of the Prince of Peace. May His joy be your strength as you seek to glorify Him in your body and spirit, which are His (1 Cor. 6:20). Let us maintain a pure witness until His return. He's coming soon!

...............................................benny