DINOSAURS AND MAN COEXISTED


PREFACE

There is a large amount of evidence pointing to dinosaurs and man coexisting. This thread will look at dinosaurs reported in history, apparent dinosaurs in the Bible, dinosaur art artifacts, dinosaur footprints, and dinosaur sightings some of which have been seen by trained scientists.

DINOSAURS IN HISTORY AND IN ANCIENT ARTIFACTS


Here are some overview articles with pictures of the art:

http://www.dinosaur-extinction.com/

http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm


NOTED CURATOR LOOKS AT DINOSAUR AND MAN COEXISTING EVIDENCE


Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology with the United States National Museum examines evidence that points to dinosaurs and man existing:

http://www.creationism.org/swift/DohenyExp...oheny01Main.htm

http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/...upaiCarving.htm



DINOSAURS IN THE BIBLE

The Bible's behemoth was a dinosaur (extensive exegesis):

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i2/behemoth.asp

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/behemoth.html

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr2003/r&r0302a.htm

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml


DINOSAURS IN HISTORY


I first quote:

"Consider the many dragon legends. Most ancient cultures have stories or artwork of dragons that strongly resemble dinosaurs.6 The World Book Encyclopedia states that:

The dragons of legend are strangely like actual creatures that have lived in the past. They are much like the great reptiles [dinosaurs] which inhabited the earth long before man is supposed to have appeared on earth. Dragons were generally evil and destructive. Every country had them in its mythology.7

The simplest and most obvious explanation for so many common descriptions of dragons from around the world is that man once knew the dinosaurs.


6 Lorella Rouster, “The Footprints of Dragons,” Creation Social Science and Humanities Quarterly, Fall 1978, pp. 23–28.

7 Knox Wilson, “Dragon,” The World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, 1973, p. 265."


quoted from: http://208.55.7.236/onlinebook/FAQ25.html[/quote]



WERE DRAGONS DINOSAURS?


Here are a number of articles on this subject:


DRAGONS IN PARADISE by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.*
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-241.htm


Dinosaurs in history
http://www.creationdefense.org/22.htm


Dinosaurs in history
http://www.johnankerberg.com/Articles/science/SC0700W1.htm


Dragons and Dinosaur - Are they the same?
http://www.nwcreation.net/dinosdragons.html


Dinosaurs, Sea Serpents, and “Dragons” in the Time of Man!
http://www.triumphpro.com/dinosaurs___sea_serpents.htm



DINOSAUR AND PEASANT FARMER

On May 13, 1572 a dinosaur may have been killed by a peasant farmer in Italy (pg 41 "The Great Dinosaur Mystery" by Paul Taylor ISBN 0-89636-264-7)

For details see: http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/dinoscoexist.html




MODERN DINOSAUR SITINGS


1,000 PEOPLE REPORT SEEING A DINOSAUR-LIKE MONSTER

I quote:

"The Chinese publication, China Today, reports that 1,000 people had seen a dinosaur-like monster in two sightings around Sayram Lake in Xinjiang. 1

1 Lai Kuan and Jian Qun, ‘Dinosaurs: Alive and Well and Living in Northwest China?’, China Today, Vol. XLII No. 2, February 1993, p. 59."

Please see this link regarding the China sitings plus some other sitings : http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v...4/dinosaurs.asp



TWO TRAINED SCIENTIST REPORT SEEING DINOSAUR

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v...4/dinosaurs.asp


I also found this quote interesting:

"For the past three centuries, unconfirmed reports have come from the Congo in western Africa that dinosaurs exist in remote swamps. These stories are often from educated people, eyewitnesses, and others who can quickly describe dinosaurs. Although they did not personally see dinosaurs, two expeditions, led by biologist Dr. Roy Mackal of the University of Chicago, verified many of these accounts, some from scientists.5 If any of these accounts are correct, man and dinosaurs were contemporaries.

5
Roy P. Mackal, A Living Dinosaur? (New York: E. J. Brill, 1987).

“Living Dinosaurs?” Science 80, November 1980, pp. 6–7.

Jamie James, “Bigfoot or Bust,” Discover, March 1988, pp. 44–53."



taken from: http://208.55.7.236/onlinebook/FAQ25.html


Apparently zoologist, professor, and government worker report seeing flying dinosaur (government worker said he was attacked and reportedly his wound from the attack was seen):

http://www.trueauthority.com/cryptozoology/kongamato.htm


I also quote:

"The Geelong Advertiser in Australia had an artist draw this pic below from the description of an Aboriginal elder -- this was before hadrosaurs like Edmontosaurus were officially discovered by science."

taken from: http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthrea...?threadid=15138





REMARKABLE DINOSAUR/MAN ARTWORK FROM ANCIENT WORLD DATED AS 2ND CENTURY PIECE OF ART.

For a picture of artwork please see:

http://www.s8int.com/dinolit2.html



A book on the The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina (picture featured in above link)
is mentioned in the quote here:



"The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina

For those with an interest in the impressive Nile Mosaic at Palestrina, a (costly) academic book by Paul G P Meyboom discusses the mosaic's religious and historical significance. The Nile Mosaic of Palestrina: Early Evidence of Egyptian Religion in Italy relates scenes of the mosaic to Egyptian religious rituals, and their possible place in the Roman world."

http://www.italyheaven.co.uk/palestrina.html


Here is the quote saying the Nile Mosaic at Palestrina is dated in the 2nd century:

http://www.exchangedlife.com/Creation/dinosaurs.shtml


The review at Amazon from Book News says the Nile Mosaic at Palestrina is dated at 100 A.D.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...ance&vi=reviews



DINOSAUR FOOTPRINTS POINT TO MAN AND DINOSAURS COEXISTING

Here is an overview article:

In the footsteps of giants by Michael Oard
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v...2/footsteps.asp




DINOSAURS ON ANCIENT PERUVIAN POTTERY


In the 1500s there were accounts describing pottery that had dinsosaur type creatures on them.

I cite:

EVIDENCE FROM SOUTH AMERICA OF MAN AND DINOSAURS COEXISTING


I quote:


"Out Of Place" Artifacts

Nasca Burial Stones, Ceramics, Pottery with Dinosaurs, ca. 500 AD

- Spanish Priest described stones in 1525

- Chronicler of Incas wrote of stones in 1570"

TAKEN FROM: http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dp-evidence-south-america.htm

* Please see the above link for further details


Dinosaur Art From Ancient Tombs In Peru

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-art.htm




More on the Inca stones

I read at one website that Dr. Javier Cabrera is very upset that many people in the scientific community do not accept the Inca Stones. I suspect it is because his father's reputation is at stake (see: http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-art.htm ). As you may recall, his father discovered some of the first Inca Stones in a cave (the first stones were found in 1562 by Spanish explorers). I realize that Dr. Cabrera likely bought some forgories later (see: http://www.bibleandscience.com/otherviews/baugh.htm ).

At the same time I think Dr. Cabrera is likely honest. I offer this quote:

"A physician and head of the Preventive Medicine Department of the Felix Torrealva Gutierrex hospital, Dr. Cabrera founded the medical school of Ica National University, and was awarded "Favorite Son of Ica City," in 1988. "

taken from: http://www.rense.com/general19/inca.htm




I think this commentary on the "stones of Inca" is helpful:


"The Stones of Ica" (Dinosaur art)

"In widely separated areas of North and South America, construction of earth mounds and artificial shaping of hills and cliffs show familiarity on the part of the ancient artisans with animals SUPPOSEDLY EXTINCT in the Americas for thousands, and in some cases, MILLIONS OF YEARS. A great mound in Wisconsin is shaped like the outline of an ele- phant or mastodon . . . Some pre-Incaic people carved the rock cliffs of the Marcahuasi Plateau of Peru into huge representations of lions, camels, and something resembling a STEGOSAURUS .

"In the vicinity of the village of Ocucaje and Ica, in Peru, a collection of rounded stones totaling perhaps 16,000 and weighing from five pounds up to huge boulders of 800 pounds has been amassed by Dr. Javier Cabrera, who has about 11,000 of them in his museum. What is unusual about these 'stones of Ica' is that they are covered with incised drawings ostensibly made by carvers of past civilizations. The engraved drawings show people, extant and extinct animals, star maps, the star ring of the zodiac, and maps of unidentified land areas. The people are shown hunting or struggling with a variety of monsters that resemble BRONTOSAURS, TRICERATOPS, STEGOSAURS, AND PTERODACTYLS, . . . Even more surprisingly, human beings are portrayed as having domesticated animals that appear to be DINOSAURS and are using them for transportation and warfare. People are shown using telescopes, looking at the stars, and performing surgery" (ibid., p.193-194).

Since the original stones were discovered, local villagers appear to be "cashing in" on the discovery, faking stones to sell to tourists and the public. Wherever there is a "buck" to be made, hawkers and forgerers will climb out of the woodwork to make a profit. However, these stones cannot be so easily dismissed because early Spanish reports tell that some of the stones were sent back to Spain by Spanish explorers in 1562 -- proving they are not of recent origin. There is no rhyme or reason for them to have been "fabricated" so many centuries ago. Furthermore, the fact that they are at least several centuries old is attested to by the oxidation produced by the aging of the minerals covering the incisions of the drawings."

quoted from: http://www.s8int.com/dinolit1.html



Here is some additional commentary on the Inca Stones that I thought was helpful:

http://members.cox.net/icastones/my_opinion.htm


As noted this artwork was commented on in the 1500s. However, some of the more recent finds appear to be people trying to cash in:

http://www.bibleandscience.com/otherviews/baugh.htm




MEXICAN DINOSAUR ART

The Photogallery of the Dinosaur Figurines Of Acambaro, Mexico

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro-dinos.htm


The Dinosaur Figurines Of Acambaro, Mexico, continued

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro.htm



12 Witnesses to the figurines of Acambaro

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-acambaro-witnesses.htm


I also quote:

The Acambaro dinosaurs
From: http://www.ntskeptics.org/1999/1999october/october1999.htm

By John Blanton

Dinosaurs went missing about 65 million year ago. Or did they?

What if they really didn't. What if dinosaurs were still around as late as 6500 years ago. And if people and dinosaurs lived contemporaneously? That would shoot holes in a lot of modern science. Paleontology would be badly wounded. Evolution would be DOA. So the thinking goes.

If you could find a human fossil in the same stone with a dinosaur fossil you would have some nice ammunition to shoot down evolution. Even better if the fossil showed a dinosaur eating a human. If all you had were something that looked like human footprint alongside dinosaur footprints you might be inclined to shop further. Enter the Acambaro dinosaurs.

A paper titled "Archeological cover-ups" by David Hatcher Childress describes the discovery of the Acambaro dinosaur figurines. 1 In 1944 an accidental discovery of an even more controversial nature was made by Waldemar Julsrud at Acambaro, Mexico. Acambaro is in the state of Guanajuato, 175 miles northwest of Mexico City. The strange archaeological site there yielded over 33,500 objects of ceramic, stone-including jade, and knives of obsidian (sharper than steel and still used today in heart surgery). Julsrud, a prominent local German merchant, also found statues ranging from less than an inch to six feet in length depicting great reptiles, some of them in ACTIVE ASSOCIATION with humans-generally eating them, but in some bizarre statuettes an erotic association was indicated. To observers, many of these creatures resembled dinosaurs. Childress further mentions that radio-carbon dating in the laboratories of the University of Pennsylvania and additional tests using thermoluminescence indicated the objects were made 6500 years ago.

In Atlantis Rising , David Lewis has explained the implications for modern science. 2 The Acambaro figurines, discovered in the 1940s in Acambaro, Mexico, depict fantastic creatures that resemble dinosaurs, as well as African and European men. If verified as authentic and dated to a time before modern science's discovery of the dinosaurs, the existence of the figurines would dismantle the major presumptions of modern evolutionary theory, and, in fact, much of the scientific and academic establishment. Young-Earth creationist Don Patton discussed the subject of the Acambaro dinosaurs at September's meeting of the Metroplex Institute of Origin Science (MIOS). He has journeyed to Acambaro to view and photograph some of the artifacts, and he agrees with Lewis that this spells doom for evolution. Most of those attending the meeting concurred.

Don was gracious enough to provide me with copies of some of his photos, which we reproduce here. His printed brochure compares one of the figurines with a drawing from Robert Bakker's book Dinosaur Heresies (1986). The figurine so resembles the dinosaurs in Bakker's illustration that the ancient artist must have seen one in the flesh.

Of course, modern science is not going to take this lying down, as both Patton and Childress have pointed out. Childress explains the situation in his report: 3 A team of experts at another university, shown Julsrud's half-dozen samples but unaware of their origin, ruled out the possibility that they could have been modern reproductions.

However, they fell silent when told of their controversial source. In 1952, in an effort to debunk this weird collection which was gaining a certain amount of fame, American archaeologist Charles C. DiPeso claimed to have minutely examined the then 32,000 pieces within not more than four hours spent at the home of Julsrud. In a forthcoming book, long delayed by continuing developments in his investigation, archaeological investigator John H. Tierney, who has lectured on the case for decades, points out that to have done that DiPeso would have had to have inspected 133 pieces per minute steadily for four hours, whereas in actuality, it would have required weeks merely to have separated the massive jumble of exhibits and arranged them properly for a valid evaluation.

Tierney, who collaborated with the later Professor Hapgood, the late William N. Russell, and others in the investigation, charges that the Smithsonian Institution and other archaeological authorities conducted a campaign of disinformation against the discoveries. The Smithsonian had, early in the controversy, dismissed the entire Acambaro collection as an elaborate hoax. Also, utilising the freedom of Information Act, Tierney discovered that practically the entirety of the Smithsonian's Julsrud case files are missing.

After two expeditions to the site in 1955 and 1968, Professor Charles Hapgood, a professor of history and anthropology at the University of New Hampshire, recorded the results of his 18-year investigation of Acambaro in a privately printed book entitled MYSTERY IN ACAMBARO. Hapgood was initially an open-minded skeptic concerning the collection but became a believer after his first visit in 1955, at which time he witnessed some of the figures being excavated and even dictated to the diggers where he wanted them to dig.

Adding to the mind-boggling aspects of this controversy is the fact that the Instituto Nacional de Antropologia e Historia, through the late Director of PreHispanic Monuments, Dr. Eduardo Noguera, (who, as head of an official investigating team at the site, issued a report which Tierney will be publishing), admitted "the apparent scientific legality with which these objects were found." Despite evidence of their own eyes, however, officials declared that because of the objects "fantastic" nature, they had to have been a hoax played on Julsrud! Whether Julsrud was hoaxed is something Patton intends to pursue, although he thinks not. He says he plans to excavate under the kitchen floor of the former Julsrud home in Acambaro. This floor is original from before the time Julsrud move in, and finding similar figurines there will rule out their being recent forgeries.

Answering questions following his MIOS talk, Don explained that the figurines in question appeared to have been deliberately buried. They were found in collections of twenty to thirty and packed in sand, and they are made from local clay, which is decayed feldspar. Only ten percent of the figurines resemble dinosaurs.

So, what does all of this have to do with Albert Einstein, Perry Mason, and The Mysterious Origins of Man ? Glad you asked.

Patton notes 4 In the forward to the book, Earth's Shifting Crust, Albert Einstein said Hapgood's concept could be of a "great importance to everything that is related to the Earth's surface." Earth's Shifting Crust was the original title of Hapgood's book, which is now The Path of the Pole . His idea was that all the ice at the poles represented a spinning mass that exerted a horizontal force on the Earth's crust. In the mid 1950s, before the modern idea of plate tectonics was developed, but while Wegener's ideas of continental drift were being floated around, Hapgood proposed that this off-center force occasionally shifted the crust, putting the poles at the equator and causing other nasty results. Hapgood corresponded with Einstein on this topic and received encouragement. Einstein recommended that Hapgood obtain "geological and paleontological facts."

NBC first broadcast The Mysterious Origins of Man ( MOM ) in February 1996. Host Charlton Heston explained to the audience how a lot of standard science, such as evolution, paleontology, archaeology, and anthropology got it all wrong. Young-Earth creationist Carl Baugh helped out by explaining the Paluxy River "man tracks."

Hapgood was there to explain the evidence of sudden Earth crustal displacement. The "fact" that thousands of animals were frozen in short order (in geologic time) and that ancient maps showed an ice-free Antarctica (which was then frozen over very quickly) was given as evidence for this crustal shift. Paul Heinrich has posted a review of these claims at
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/atlantis.html.

The creator of MOM , Bill Cote, has since produced a third program along similar lines. This latest is Jurassic Art , which deals with two topics-the Acambaro figurines and the Ica stones.

So now we are back to where we started, as James Burke would say. A great fan of the Ica stones is Don Patton, who has presented talks on them at MIOS meetings. The deal about the Ica (not Inca) stones is that they are black stones with serpentine figures carved into them. Don Patton contends these are depictions of real dinosaurs done from life. David Lewis had this to say about them: 5 The Ica stones are a collection of thousands of inscribed stones found near the mysterious Nasca Lines in Peru. Many of the stones depict Pterodactyls, T-Rexes, and humans cavorting with Stegosaurs. Who carved these mysterious stones? Some ancient artist who somehow knew about dinosaurs, or a modern prankster? The answer to those questions remains a mystery. Except to you, of course. Dating both the Acambaro figurines and Ica stones has proved inconclusive. Unfortunately, both the stones and figurines have been removed from their original settings, making reliable dating difficult, if not impossible. In the Peruvian case, the curator and discoverer of the artifacts, Javier Cabrera, a medical doctor, refuses to reveal the location of a cave where he allegedly found the stones, leading archeologist Neil Steede, who investigates both cases on Cote's Jurassic Art, to question the doctor's story. So, we come to the end of the tale, and we still don't know what's behind the Acambaro dinosaurs.

Are the figurines really 6500 years old? Don Patton, who appears to finally accept radio-carbon dating, would only give the "dinosaurs" 1500 years in his talk. A human figure he allowed 4000 years.

Are they even authentic? If they are 1500 years old and more, then it's likely they are. That was way before people found sport in fooling archaeologists.

If they are authentic, do they represent dinosaurs? Some of the ones exhibited are dead ringers for dinosaurs, but they were culled from a reported cache of over 30,000 items. Many of the figurines presented as dinosaurs required a bit of a stretch to make the resemblance. It's possible we are just seeing some selective sampling. Given the amount of variation apparent in the collection there was bound to be a dinosaur in there somewhere.

Research into the mystery of the figurines since the MIOS lecture has not provided further explanation, so for the time being we will have to leave it at that. Some stories just don't have neat endings.

Oh wait. I forgot to tell about Perry Mason, although it has absolutely no significance to the story. Accompanying Hapgood in his 1955 investigation of the figurines was prolific detective fiction writer Earl Stanley Gardner. The Acambaro dinosaurs, it would seem, had something for everybody.

Refrences

1. Childress, David Hatcher. Archeological Coverups? Posted by the World Explorers Club at http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/canyon.txt. In the quoted excerpt I have fixed some of the inconsistencies in spelling and punctuation. The capitalization has been left intact.

2. Lewis, David. Jurassic Art? At http://atlantisrising.com/issue11/ar11jurassic.html

3. Childress

4. From Don Patton's untitled brochure on the Acambaro figurines.

5. Lewis

taken from: http://www.meta-religion.com/Paranormale/S...o_dinosaurs.htm




A skeptic site reproduced the article above. In addition is has some pictures of some figurines:

http://www.ntskeptics.org/1999/1999october/october1999.htm



There appears to be a book on the subject:

[quote]Mystery in Acambaro: Did Dinosaurs Survive Until Recently?
by: Charles Hapgood, Charles, H. Hapgood


http://www.sciencedaily.com/cgi-bin/apf4/a...emId=0932813763[/quote]



Here is what another skeptical site says about the Mexican dinosaur collection:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH710_2.html

(The above link is a pro macroevolution hypothesis website. I am a creationist for some of the following reasons: creationism: http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=180 )



MORE REGARDING DINOSAUR AND MAN FOOTPRINTS

I quote:


Did man and dinosaurs live at the same time? Scientists in the former Soviet Union have reported a layer of rock containing more than 2,000 dinosaur footprints alongside tracks “resembling human footprints.”1 Obviously, both types of footprints were made in mud or sand that later hardened into rock. If some are human footprints, then man and dinosaurs lived at the same time.

1 Alexander Romashko, “Tracking Dinosaurs,” Moscow News, No. 24, 1983, p. 10."

from: http://208.55.7.236/onlinebook/FAQ25.html


Answers in Genesis comments on dinosaur/man footprints reported by Moscow News:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v...4/dinosaurs.asp



MORE REGARDING THE DINOSAUR AND MANLIKE FOOTPRINTS FOUND TOGETHER REPORTED BY THE MOSCOW NEWS

I quote:

"A startling report appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald (Australia) on page 1 of a late edition on November 21, 1983:

"A report from the Soviet News agency, Tass, says that about 1500 tracks made by dinosaurs have been found in Turkmenia, but among those prints are those resembling the footprints of a man. According to Professor Amanniyazov, Director of Turkmenia's Institute of Geology, 'If further analysis proves that the prints have been left by anthropoids, the history of mankind will be extended to 150 million not 5 million years.'"

At first we had serious reservations about this report, especially when we heard (in September of 1984) that the Directors of the Creation Research Foundation (in Queensland, Australia) had been unsuccessfully trying to trace the source of the report. In an issue of their journal, Ex Nihilo. they recommended caution. However, they then were able to report (in the next issue of Ex Nihilo) that the account was authentic, having been published in Moscow News, No. 24, 1983, on p.10. Moscow News is an official Moscow paper in English, partly for overseas personnel. We ourselves were also able to do some tracking, and came up with a much more elaborate report, as follows: TRACKING DINOSAURS (Cr. V. Rubstsov) Moscow News, No. 24, p. 10, 1983. "This spring, an expedition from the Institute of Geology of the Turkmen SSR Academy of Sciences found over 1,500 tracks left by dinosaurs in the mountains in the south-east of the Republic. Impressions resembling in shape a human footprint were discovered next to the tracks of the prehistoric animals. Our correspondent Alexander Romashko reports:

'I stood only a step away from a smooth clearing receding up the slope. I stepped forward and found myself in the Mesozoic era, i.e., nearly 150 million years in the past. A chain of dinosaur tracks started at my feet. It looked as if the huge prehistoric beasts passed by here very recently, leaving imprints of massive paws every 1.5 meters.

"Paleontologists explained to me later on that with this long stride, the reptiles had to be 8-12 meters tall. All of a sudden we saw, next to the three-fingered track of a dinosaur, a not-very-clear but quite discernable track looking very much like a human footprint. Anyway, all those who saw it first thought so. Since I am no scholar, I ventured to come forth with an assumption: 'Who knows but maybe our very far removed ancestors did mingle with dinosaurs?' .......

"'Science might possibly answer that in the affirmative sometime in the future', said Professor Kurban Amanniyazov, head of the expedition, Corresponding Member of the Turkmen SSR Academy of Sciences, director of the Institute of Geology'. However, at present we don't have enough grounds to say this. We've imprints resembling human footprints, but to date have failed to determine, with any scientific veracity, whom they belong to, after all. Of course, if we could prove that they do belong to a humanoid, then it would create a revolution in the science of man. Humanity would 'grow older' thirty-fold and its history would be at least 150 millions years long."

The report goes on to mention that dinosaur tracks have been discovered in the Americas, in Europe, in Africa, as well as in Georgia and Uzbekistan of Russia. The area where these present footprints have been found is in Southeast Turkmenia, not far from the Khodzha-pil-ata village."

quoted from: http://home.texoma.net/~linesden/cem/diss/v2ch1.htm[/quote]





WHY NO DINOSAUR AND MAN FOSSILS FOUND TOGETHER?


Dinosaurs and Humans—Where is the Fossil Evidence for Their Coexistence? by Eric Lyons, M.Min. and Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1973



LARGE RESOURCES OF MAN/DINOSAUR COEXISTING INFORMATION

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dinosaurs.asp

http://www.defendyourfaith.com/age-main.htm#dinosaurs



CONCLUSION


I think the case for dinosaurs and man coexisting is a strong cummulative case. In short, it is a inductive argument based on history, apparent dinosaurs in the Bible, dinosaur art artifacts, dinosaur footprints, and dinosaur sightings. And I also think there is a lot of archaelogical anomalies to the macroevolutionary position but that is beyong the scope of this thread.




ADDENDUM


Dinosaurs-with-man articles:

(Creation Magazine and CEN Technical Journal is published by www.answersingenesis.org )


Fly away Peter, fly away pterosaur! Creation 8(1):4, November 1985



Pterosaur crashes! Creation 8(4):5, September 1986



The Last Pterodactyl? Creation 8(4):35, September 1986



Waddling pterosaurs? Creation 9(4):5, September-November 1987



Pterodactyl hits the skies – and ground!, Creation 9(4):22, September–November 1987



Pterosaur to attempt ptake-off, Creation 10(1):4–5, December 1987–February 1988



Pterosaur sightings? Creation 16(2):5, March–May 1994



Pterodactyls, Creation 18(1):5, December 1995–February 1996



Live plesiosaurs: weighing the evidence, CEN Technical Journal 12(3):339–346, 1998



Let rotting sharks lie: further evidence for shark identity of the Zuiyo-maru carcass, CEN Technical Journal 13(2):83–87, 1998



Dinosaurs and Dragons, CEN Technical Journal 8(1):85–104, 1994



Messages on Stone, Creation 19(2):20–23, March–May 1997



Dinosaurs and Dragons, Creation 14(3):10–14, June 1992



Dragons: animals ...not apparitions, Creation 22(3):14–16, June–August 2000



Man and Dinosaur Tracks! Where are they? Creation 4(4):21–25, March 1982



Red faces over ‘dino’ DNA, Creation 18(3):9, June–August 1996



Dinosaur bones: Just how old are they really? Creation 21(1):54–55, December 1998–February 1999



Australia’s Aborigines... did they see dinosaurs? Creation 21(1):24–27, December 1998–February 1999



Mokele-mbembe: a living dinosaur? Creation 21(4):24–25, September–November 1999



Se Monsters... more than a legend? Creation 19(4):38–42, September–November 1997



Sensational dinosaur blood report! Creation 19(4):42–43, September–November 1997



‘Blood chemicals’ found in dino bone, Creation 18(4):9, September–November 1996



Human and dinosaur footprints in Turkmenistan? Creation 18(4):52, September–November 1996



Fresh dino bones? Creation 16(3):8, June–August 1994



First dino DNA? Creation 17(2):7 March–May 1995



‘Dinosaur’ washes up, Creation 17(2):7 March–May 1995



Dinosaurs living in Africa? Early Reports, Creation 17(2):19 March–May 1995



Dino DNA claim debunked, Creation 17(3):7 June–August 1995



Are dinosaurs alive today? Creation 15(4):12–15 September 1993



Did humans meet dinosaurs? Creation 14(3):39 June 1992



Bunyips and Dinosaurs, Creation 15(2):51 March 1993



Fresh dinosaur bones found, Creation 14(3):16–17 June 1992



Russian Paluxy Source, Creation 7(3):4 March 1985



New Paluxy Find, Creation 9(3):5 June 1987



Ham, K., Dinosaurmania Strikes Again, Back To Genesis, No. 55a, July 1993, http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-a/btg-055a.htm .

What if God in creating a mature earth 6000 years ago just put fossils in the ground with it?


Charlie

But that would be deceptive and meaningless. The fact of the matter is that the fossils point to a world-wide flood, and without the fossils and these sedimentary layers there would be no evidence for a flood. But there is. Unfortunately, most have come to wrong conclusions about these things but one day they will know different.

I like the way you put it. So simple for me to understand. You are so right for it would be deceptive and meaningless. Every thing God did and will do, there is a reason for it.
When I was in the 6th grade(long time ago) my teacher did not believe in God. He would use the fossils as proof there was no God. I remember I walk out of class because of it.
I wish I could have read the above then, so I could have quoted it to him.
He would at me in class for my belief in God!
His lis. to teach was taken away from him and of course he blame me for it. lol
I still see him from time to time.
Kim

When I was in high school I used to have great struggles. I was alone before the all knowing high-school teacher! "Better to have a millstone tied around the neck and be thrown into the sea than to cause one of these little ones that believe in me to stumble," Jesus said.

Okay i understand that they died off in the flood but then wasn't Noah suppose to take to of every animal so did he just take two lizards and said yep thats close enough to the dinasaours (same makeup just smaller)? Just a thought.

Hi everyone! I'm sorry I haven't read the entire thread, forgive me. I just wanted to toss something out for your consideration.

Is it possible that science is wrong? That perhaps instead of the earth being millions of years old as the scientists say, that it is only 6,000 years old?

Is it possible that there is a number pattern in everything and that the Father is a master mathemetician? Consider the number 7. Look at all the passages of the bible that refer to this number, there are many.

Consider please also this. Could it be that during creation week, the Father worked for 6 days to create the heaven, earth, sea and all that was in them and then rested on the seventh day?

Is it possible that the Father commanded the farmers to plant for 6 years then let the field lie fallow, or rest for the seventh year?

Is it possible that the world will exist and do it's work of producing the fruit of the harvest for 6,000 years then rest for 1,000 years?

Are there any passages in the bible that describe the 1,000 year peroid?

Is it possible that we are to do all our work for 6 days then rest in fellowship with the Father and our brothers and sisters on the seventh-day?

Just asking questions here.

I am your servant.

This site provided me with a whole afternoon's reading. A Christian site, dealing with so many things, it makes your mind reel. Great for research and it makes you think.
God made Adam and Eve very good...maybe better than we ever expected.

http://www.s8int.com/index.html

If God did it, how do you figure it would be deceptive and meaningless. Job didn't understand about God's right to test him, but that didn't make God deceptive, it just meant that the creation didn't understand, what God was doing.


Charlie

Hey Derek,
according some views on the age of man...it's supposed to be 6000 years. Starting from Adam and Eve.
So you're wondering...where are the dinosaurs in the bible?

If your really interested then I may have something that may grab your attention.

It will be interesting to see what they find in thet "lost world" just discovered in New Guinea...I heard legends a long time ago that people have seen Taradactile there.

I don't know about all of you but I got dinasuars in my back yard, they are BIRDS!!!! AND LIZZARDS! TURTLES! FROGS! AND BUGS OF EVERY SORT! Got a couple fossils back there too, one being me!

There is a verse in JOB that talks about a dinosaur type creature....

JOB 41 ( A Creature called leviathan)

41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

41:2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?

41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?

41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?

41:6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?

41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?

41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.

41:9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?

41:10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?

41:11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.

41:12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.

41:13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?

41:14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.

41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.

41:16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.

41:17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.

41:18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.

41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.

41:20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.

41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

41:22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.

41:23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

41:24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.

41:25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.

41:26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.

41:27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.

41:28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.

41:29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.

41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.

41:32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.

41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.

41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

Of course if you add all the prophecy' creatures, then we've got a whole kettle of em!

Helllo c-los medrano;
Yes i agree that the Earth is only around six thousand years old, i just wanted to find out how the whole dinasours thing fits in with noahs arc- so if you got something that will grab my attention let her buck-thanks
Derek

Hey,
I've heard that carbon dating is very inaccurate- any links or knowledge of it?

Derek, here is a great link, that kept me busy for hours
http://www.s8int.com/index.html
Cornelius

Hey Thanks,
Great Website it sure does give a good days worth of reading.
Derek

I'll post this from a previous post...

Pre-flood conditions, according to the Bible, are as follows: The freshwater of earth, or rather, that which currently makes up our hydro-vaporsphere, prior to the flood, was stored underground, and rose like a mist to water the roots of plants. This is commonly used today by horticulturalists and is called aeroponics. It's utilized because it allows the roots to absorb a maximum ammount of oxygen, nutreints, and still stay hydrated, causing rediculous growth from start to finish in any variety of flora. Plants themselves already have suprising characteristics due to the range of it's reactions to outside stimulii, but the method of aeroponic growth is, across the board, the ideal method of propagation and cultivation of any and all plant types outside of cactii (Which I can't say for absolutly certain, because I've never grown cactii, trees, or ferns aeroponically). Most people think that water is a plants best friend, but it actually sits right underneath the nutrient it takes in, the Carbon Dioxide used by the leaves to metabolize said nutrients, the sunlight used to metabolize aforementioned CO2, and on top of them all, the Oxygen that enters the root structure. I will use this to model one of the support pillars of my theory. If a plant is given the right mixture of sunlight (And in the right spectrum and Kelvin Temperature), O2, CO2, nutrients, and water, it will not only thrive, but will become somewhat of a giant version of itself, and in the ideal environment, will turn into something seen only in the 'fossil record'...a giant ultra-vital fruit producing mega plant, which turns CO2 into O2 by the cubic gallon, and is the base phsyiological platform for all life surrounding it. God made plantlife on the third day for a reason. On the fourth day, He made the sun, moon, and stars, the first which produces both light (Visible and UV) and radiant heat for the plants to metabolize CO2 and Nutrients, etc, and the moon second, to pull the water vapor to the surface by gravitational pull, to water the plants at night, away from the Suns rays, which when upon meeting water droplets, become like small lasers, and burn holes in a plants leaves. By the fourth day, God had made the model self sustaining graden, with the ideal delivery system of O2, water, light, radiant heat, and UVA/B spectrum light, which kills microbes which would otherwise hurt the plant if exposed to this spectrum of light above the soils surface. The same microbes break down nutreints at the root level and promote absorbtion into the rootstructure. Like I said, prefect.

So, now here we are, earth, on the fourth day of creation, and all around us are super virile plants producing perfect fruits, seeds, air, and keeping the humidity at a constantly perfect level. Now, we come to the fifth day, where God, in His infinite perfect wisdom, invents the beast of earth. Cows, fishes, birds, whales, and everything that is to move on the earth. Each one of them has a purpose, most of which is to support God's garden at this time, with the herbavores keeping the plantlife from overgrowth, the fish pooping out, for all intents and purposes, Nitrogen fertilizer, whales eating the krill and small fishes of the sea (As an overgroth check mechanism to prevent overcrowding and extinction of food supplies) which themselves produce O2, and all of them exhaling CO2, completing God's perfectly circular garden, which is it's own end and beginning, completely independant of upkeep and maintenance by outside sources. It is merely contained and tamed by the day five creations, which keep it from growing so large and widespread as to cause the earth to be cramped, or otherwise like a gigantic jungle. Now, to take a few steps back...

The world, upon creation, had one giant super continent, which we commonly call Pangea. Before the flood, all the water was held underground, with the only above ground water being like giant lakes, or seas, which contain the fish and whales. The fish poop out nitrogen rich plant food, which I also learned through hydroponic cultivation. The utilisation of this is called aquaponics, and uses fish poo to fertilize plants, as it is the perfect plant food. Before the flood, this poop would have settled at the bottom of the seas, and the nitrogen would have seeped into the ground water, causing the mist to become like a perfected version of an aeroponic nutrient solution. So since all of the water was underground, and had to come upwards, another revelation hits us: soil porosity. The soil would have had to have been spongy like rockwool in order for the mist to penetrate upwards through unknown fathoms of dirt. So, here we are, with spongy soil, and as a kicker, all of the water is stored underground. Here's the second support pillar for my theory. The soils height combined with a massive water table underneath it would have pushed the ground level up, which I estimate with my GED level education, to have been at least a mile upwards (More approximately, about 17,000 feet), creating pillar number two: A Hyperbaric Environment. Because there was no vast ocean, nor nearly as many mountain ranges as we currently have, the air pressure would have been much higher than it is today. For grins and giggles, I'll say it's 2 bars, which is twice what it is today. This would have inhibited the water vapor from rising into clouds, the O2 would have been FORCED into the bloodstreams of the animals and the roots of plants. CO2 would have been forced into the leaves of plants as well, and further enhanced by the sun's intensity from their constant position. Also, due to the lack of water canopy or oceanic jetstream, and the enhanced UVA/B level along with the temperature, winter would have not existed yet. So, now we have a near complete picture of earth before mankind has even shown up. I'll list the various variable thus far:

1. High O2 levels
2. Medium CO2 levels
3. Warm environment due to:
a. UVA and UVB exposure due to lack of vapor canopy
b. Higher ground level
c. Lack of snow, or otherwise any winter conditions what so ever.
d. Regulated and constant humidity level, causing no variation in temperature.
4. Ultra Virile Plantlife, producing flawless fruits with all necessary nutrients to sustain life, O2 like crazy, and keeping said humidity in check.
5. Animals which at exclusively fruits and vegetables, causing no ground pollution from fecal waste which produces nitrogen instead of toxins, along with pumping out CO2 for the plants, and keeping them in check, and free of overgrowth.
6. Spongy soil that allows for both O2 and water vapor access to the root structures of plants.
7. Nitrogen fertilizer producing fish poop in the seas.
8. Oxygen producing krill and plankton in the seas.
9. Whales and fish to keep the plankton and krill in check.
10. Underground reserviors containing all (estimated) freshwater, probably below what we now call 'bedrock'.

Now, mankind, aside from cultivation, farming, and otherwise maintaining the garden, were reletively uneffective in the grand scheme of things, and were most likely created because God wanted them there. To be created in His image is to be the only existing idol of God on earth, which should say something, as we are the only thing mentioned in the Bible to have been created in His image. Given this great bounty of perfect food, in a perfect environment, something happened:

Man lived an average of 907.5 years, not including Enoch who was taken up, or Noah, who was alive for and after the flood. Now, we come to about 1600 years later at the flood. You'll notice when reading the story that first, the chasm of the great deep burst. That would have caused a humongous quick sand pit, which, due to our very physiology (Small base - feet, with all weight on top), would have sucked every man with feet on the ground into the earth. It's as if the ground became a liquid. The resulting drop in barometric pressure from the saturation and settling of the soil (No longer porous due to rising and falling water level) would have made evaporation poissible, causing, in a matter of minutes, the worlds first rainclouds, which, after another couple of minutes, would have dumped rainwater all over the earth. So, even if the rain didn't occur, all was dead due to the suckage caused by the liquid earth. The result was a layering effect, with the light birdlike animals on top, the lighter animals under them, the heavier wider and more apt to swim animals (Reptiles) under them (they would have at least struggled), and below them, the denser, and stockier less able to swim amphibians, with the ground dwelling bugs and shellfish at the very bottom. Well, actually, at the very bottom are the perflood men of Cain and all who had been dead and buried underground. Those buried in tombs are probably still in the mountains the tombs were cut out of (Probably iced over durring the first precipitation), only higher up, because the following happened;

The dirt settled. After it went upwards, and downwards with the water, it settled underneath the billions of tons of newly sufaced water, cementing in all the life burried in it, causing the layers we now attribute to the prehistoric eras. The resulting dirt was now harder, and packed down by settling water, and the run off causing a system of rivers, valleys, and channels we now also attribute to glaciers.
"But what about the wooly mammoths, sabre toother tigers, and other mammalians we see frozen into big blocks of ice in the glaciers?"
Mammals still retain this odd ability we call the sixth sense. I think originally it was installed by God to warn the animal's companion people, wether they be their herdsmen or neighbors by region, or oncomming disasters, like lightening storms, earthquakes, and other natural calamaties, in a "follow the fleeing animals, because they're running from SOMETHING" fashion. Possibly a first warning system. The mammals which inhabited the earth tried to flee before the flood, making it north and south, only to be met by the world largest snowstorm, caused by the earths fledgling jetstream. The colder air, and new moisture froze them into blocks of ice called glaciers today, and here you have the iceage. Actually, it was probably only a few ice months.

"What about the fur?! It was warm dummy! Why did they have fur?"
For the same reason they adapt to thier climates today by furring up. Here's a cool experiment. Buy a pig. It doesn't matter how big or old it is, just as long as it's pink, tuskless, and domesticated. Now kick it out. Yeah, that's right, evict it. Put that bad boy in the woods, and you'll see something crazy happen. It'll grow fur. It'll grow tusks. It'll become a wild pig. How long does this take, you may ask. No longer than three weeks. Yeah, from pink Babe on the breakfast plate piggy to a man mauling wild pig in three weeks flat. No joke, it's true. The following generations of man and beast would devolve slowly, due to the reduced availability of food, diet, and other factors both genetic and environmental. Over the next 4500 years, they'd becomer what we now see today.

Personally I don't think the fossil record supports co-existence. I would like to research this more.



Jeep

If this is true that dinosuars and Humans coexisted then we were able to survive from becoming extinct. In this case then we could survive this agian if it were to happen in 2012 as the bible code says. I was also wondering if anyone knows where I could get the software to see if I could try and figure out this code myself and accually have some aguments on these subjects. thank you very much.

Robert Staten

I believe there is a common misunderstanding as to what the "dragons" of the Bible really are. The ones mentioned in Genisis, the great monsters created after the fish, but millions before Adam are clearly the dinosaurs we see in museums today and which scientific evicence suggests went extinct some 65 million years ago. After that time NO dinosaur fossils have ever been found in later strata.

So what are the dragons living in historic times with mankind, and supported by sightings all over the world in the past 4,000 years? The Bible is very specific what these creatures are. They are the Seraphim and Cherubim, heavenly entities never referred to as angels, but as "creatures".

The evidence for this is overwhelming and will be detailed in my upcoming book. But here's some basic information:
Seraphim in Hebrew mean a fiery, flying/winged serpent or dragon. Some interpetations state it simply means "fiery ones" or "shining ones", but this is false because the exact same Hebrew word is used to describe the winged creatures sent by God to punish the Israelites during the Exodus, and in this case, their reptilian form is beyond dispute. Furthermore, this exact same word was known to the ancient Egyptians as well, and it means a "terrifying monster". We even know its hieroglyph, which appears to be a winged reptilian quadrapedal dragon.

If it seem odd that the book of Psalms referrs to "dragons singing praises to God", Isaiah says exactly the same thing only here it the Seraphim who sing, but the original Hebrew and Egyptian sources proves that these are dragons as well.

This is why Satan is referred to as a "dragon". He was never a human-like angel, but simply one of the host of Seraphim-dragons. While it may puzzle people as to why Jesus told his disciples to be "as wise as serpents," it is because he was referring to the heavenly serpent-dragons and not common snakes.

Scriptures of the Apochrypha, Enoch, the Aploclypes of Baruch, etc, all refer to the Cherubim and Seraphim dragons residing in heaven, and their likenesses can be seen in ancient and medieval Chrisitian artwork. The "Worm that does not die" which Jesus mentions as one of the torments of sinners, may be a misunderstanding of is disciples to these heavenly dragons which the Baruch Apocolypse stated devoured the souls of sinners, and this, and not the Greek Hades, was the authetentic punishment of Hell.

These then are the "dragons" recorded in the Bible and the history and legends of virtually every human culture. They are the creatures which rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah, on disobedient Hebrews in Exodous, destroyed the first born of Egypt and many other biblical events. While many legends suggest that dragons are universally "evil", it is an understandable assumption if you happen to be a resident of Sodom, or some other sinner in which the Seraphim dragons were sent to wreak heavenly retiributon for offenses throughout the world.

Over the centuries people "forgot" about the heavenly dragons except for the most famous one Satan, who because of his negative role in Christianity, gave all dragons an evil and destructive connotation, which might be derserved in those cultures who were being punished byh God.

Draconic-chronicler,

I haven't looked into whether dragons refer to the entities you described or dinosaurs or both.

At this time, however, I went to briefly address one comment of yours.

You wrote:



I know that the macroevolutionary position is false and that the earth is not as old as you suggest.

I suggest looking at this resource I created:

Creationism - A Directory Of Websites
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=180


I also suggest these resources:

Where are all the human fossils?
by Don Batten (editor), Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4419.asp

Geology quotes
http://www.nwcreation.net/wiki/new/index.p...=Geology_quotes

The Geologic Column: Does It Exist?
by John Woodmorappe
http://www.trueorigin.org/geocolumn.asp


The fossil record
Becoming more random all the time
by John Woodmorappe
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v14/i1/fossil.asp



Sincerely,

Ken DeMyer

Prehistoric artifacts are frequently found on my farm. Indian mostly. That only means that it was before people started recording in that area about that certain creation....

Look to the bible, my dear brothers and sisters....."can a person throw in a hook and catch Behemoth?......" ect. I believe it was a mamoth sea creature that walked under the water. Actually, the way the bible describes it...it appears that Godzilla is not far off from it. And that is old testement and commonly known
during that time period. Perhaps a myth made up by fishers like our dear Peter? Perhaps. But I don't think God would have it put in the bible if it was.

God does not trick or lead into false understanding. He would not put something in the ground and cover it up for us to find and make conclusions on that were not correct. That is deceptive and our God is not deceptive. "If God did it, is that deceptive" is not even rational. You are asking if it is OK for God to lie if He is God and can do anything. Very Greek... One precludes the existence of the other.

Carbon dating has been proven deceptive....even the 14, which was their best effort so far. However, ANY method works to compare things as lond as the system used is consistently used. So that, the method used to date the dino may be wrong, but if they use the same method on everything they can at least know which was first and which came later.

By the way, the bible says specifically that Jehovah slew "the dragon" and that was a dino in my book, breathing fire or not. Doesn't say that it existed with man, but we know it existed and that we have remnants of them everywhere, particularly in aquatic species which could survive the flood of waters.

My theory.....God does everything is threes. Satan came to Adam but I believe that was the second time he inhabited creation when he wan't supposed to. The third was when they made bodies and had giant children with human females. I believe the first was when they entered the dragons. I believe that our God would create only vegitarians and only after habitation and the consequent mental torment did they turn carnivore (like the pigs went crazy upon inhabitation when Jesus cast demons out of Legion). I believe that is why God cold not tolerate them on the planet any more and had to distroy them. This He did with a rock and then He began again, only smaller, with people.

leia

I am going to ask this question again on this thread, or rather make a statement/question
Death entered only after Adam and Eve sinned (right?) Nothing died on the earth before (right?) So , that makes anything pre-Adamic still immortal until....Adam and Eve sinned. (death is the result of sin)

So,....... Dino walked with Adam IMHO

I thought seperation from God is what entered into the world.

If I am not mistaken, we were seperated and *so* began to die, because we no longer had access to the Tree of Life....being kicked out of the garden. I know Jesus is our tree of life but Revelation also makes it plain that we will have access to trees that contain what the body requires to live forever and they will bloom continually along the river. It was whatever was in that tree that allowed continued life past what was given to the body itself. After that, it is discharging. After Noah, that was 120 years maximum.

Further, the tree was not given to animals. They lived and ran down and died naturally. Jesus did not die for animals so they don't have a 'heaven" and my *theory* is that they are simply made new creatures once more so that my dog that died is.....somewhere.

Again it is my guess, but I would gather that it is another dog, not moving up the animal chain and animalists tend to believe.

Further, the dinos (land) where killed and the earth cleansed long before Adam.
Man was God's second attempt to make the heavens be good.

Theory.....pure conjecture. But it is rational and follows all know patterns of our God and the facts of science.

leia

leia

I view the death in Genesis as representing spiritual death, a separation from God. I don't see that you can assume nothing died on earth before the fall.

Even if this were the case for humans, I think leia makes a good point that the tree of life (nor the tree of knowledge for that matter) pertains to animals.

The evidence provided by creation indicates strongly that dinosaurs died out millions of years before humans were on the scene.

The claims I have seen that there is evidence that dinos and humans existed concurrently seem to read an awful lot into the evidence. Cave drawings or verbal descriptions purporting to show or say that dinos and humans coexisted are not exactly foolproof evidence. In addition, they could easily have been inspired by people finding bones of dinosaurs, and then creating drawings etc. based on what they thought the creatures looked like.

romans, i doubt anyone would use cave drawings as evidence for humans and dinosaurs coexisted, especially when the caves themselves date back a couple of hundred thousand years back.

i know creationists have been jumping back and forth on this issues, it was not many years ago dinosaurs never existed, and then when they could not deny it, they said they died out, and that we all lived together. they dont seem to want to make up their mind.

why cant everyone live in peace instead? why not just love eachother?

Yes, it is true that some of those that I refer to as professional creationists have changed their view on dinosaurs. I wouldn't fault anyone just for changing their view, though. After all, science is based on the notion that we change the explanation for what happens based on the available evidence. The explanation should always take into account all the evidence that we have as much as is possible. My main issue with creationism is that many creationists only take into account that evidence which they think fits their already pre-determined view, or which at least in their mind seems to cast doubt on evolution. It seems to me if you consider all the vast amount of evidence from geology, biology, paleontology, the fossil record, etc. etc. it is clear that life has changed a great deal over time, and that it has been here for many hundreds of millions of years.

I have seen cave drawings and early historical accounts that described 'dinosaur like creatures, cited as evidence or even proof that dinosaurs and humans coexisted, and that is what I was referring to.

I agree we should not let disagreements about evolution get in the way of more important matters. Jesus said, in John chapter six, "my words are spirit and they are life, the flesh counts for nothing." I don't believe that God really cares what we think about evolution, as this just concerns the flesh, as long as we do so with a faithful conscience and do not lose site of the more important duties to love each other and love God.

TO: cornelius

I think there was death before Adam sinned. Why do I say that? I say that because I believe plants died before Adam sinned because Adam would have had to eat plants. Whether or not animals died is another question though and I am undecided. I don't think animals ate each other though because the Bible says the lamb will lie will the lion.

TO: Romans 14

You wrote:



It is a pet peeve of mine when evolutionists write as you did above. Why?

I say that because I could do the same thing.

I could write the following: "It seems to me if you consider all the vast amount of evidence from geology, biology, paleontology, the fossil record, etc. etc. it is clear that life has not changed a great deal over time, and that it has not been here for many hundreds of millions of years."

Why bother even putting scientific disciplines?

Why not simply write the following: "It seems to me if you consider all the vast amount of evidence from the scientific disciplines of _______, ________, ________, and __________, etc. etc. it is clear that life has changed a great deal over time, and that it has been here for many hundreds of millions of years."


In short, I think you made an empty statement.

I at least offer resources and information for people to examine.

DINOSAURS AND MAN COEXISTED

I didnt read all of your links..................... but I can tell you
I believe in the Gap theory.................
are familiar with it?

Dinosaur "kinds" could have easily been taken on the ark as juveniles, being much smaller. Reptiles will grow until they die, but since lifespans are much shorter now for humans and animals, we never see the giant reptiles that existed before the flood. Some of these may have been hundreds of years old;hence their huge size. The Bible says that all land creatures (basic kinds or "baramin" in Hebrew) were taken on the ark. After the flood, lifespans were noticeably shorter as time went on so they probably didn't life as long or grow as big on the average.

Dinosaur "kinds" could have easily been taken on the ark as juveniles, being much smaller. Reptiles will grow until they die, but since lifespans are much shorter now for humans and animals, we never see the giant reptiles that existed before the flood. Some of these may have been hundreds of years old;hence their huge size. The Bible says that all land creatures (basic kinds or "baramin" in Hebrew) were taken on the ark. After the flood, lifespans were noticeably shorter as time went on so they probably didn't life as long or grow as big on the average.

Nice articles. I have never had a doubt that dinosaurs co-existed with people on the earth. I also know of a someone I met that told me he saw a very strange lizard like creature. I did not know what to think of it at the time, because we have been taught that they are extinct. I do know about "Champ" at lake champlain and I have seen that picture before on other sites.

I am surprised that no one pointed out other passages in the Bible that hint to dinosaurs as well. I believe most of the fossils that are found now were those that were buried in the flood. Also mythology though skewed and full of legend points to the same evidence, that dragons may be the old name for some of the dinosaurs.

Anyway here is some other passages concerning hints of dinosaurs in the bible under the name of dragon. Of course we also know that dragon symbolocially refers to Satan as well. However, God always something of the natural to connect with that symbolism. Some say that the dragon is another name for a crocidile, but I really doubt it. For now I want to look at what that symbolism means in the natural that the comprison may have been to the dinosaur or a like creature. I also think the leviathan thoough some say it is a whale was again another type of dinosaur in the natural.

Jeremiah 51
34Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon hath devoured me, he hath crushed me, he hath made me an empty vessel, he hath swallowed me up like a dragon, he hath filled his belly with my delicates, he hath cast me out.

Jeremiah is comparing King Nebuchadnezzar to being like a dragon that swallows him up. The animal he is using metaphorically would have to awful big to be huh?

Ezekiel: 29
3Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

Again of course this is a metaphor, but here Pharoah is being compared to the great dragon. Again in the natural in comparison would have to be quite large to take up a river.

Isaiah 27:1-3
1In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.


Of course this is a reference to Satan here in spiritual. However we see that God is comparing him to leviathan a dragon in the sea. Again in the natural it points to a dinosaur type creature that lived in the ocean. The leviathan could not be a whale as some point out because it is not a sea serpant, duh!


Psalm 74
12For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
13Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
14Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness. 15Thou didst cleave the fountain and the flood: thou driedst up mighty rivers.


Again we have proof that the dragon and he levaithan are reptile like- sounds like a dinosaur to me that is being used for a spiritual symbol.


Job 41
1Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?

Again leviathan though symbolic here is being compared to something quite large with a tough hide I would say. Some use this passage to point out the Job was talking about a wahle, but in other passages it is called a dragon or sea serpant. Hardly fitting for a whale.

Psalm 104:25-27
25So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
26There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
27These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

If you think that "dragon" and "leviathan" are merely symbols please think again. Here we read in Psalms that it is a creature that God made.

Hope this help for those that think that there is only one passage in the Bible that mentions evidence of dinosaurs other than the Behemoth. Apprantally, the behemoth was the land dwelling type like a brontosaurus perhaps.

well we i dont know how old the earth is but mankind is about 6000 years old.

i'm not an expert in this subject but i think mankind is the second creation on earth.
has anyone here ever heard on the "gap theory?"

some people support it and some dont.

i dont support the idea that Adam and Eve lived with dinosaurs.
we know for a fact that sin existed before them so based off scripture then perhaps
death could of been a possibility.
there are also lines of scripture that support something that we are not told about about
time before our existence.
sorry to respond so late Derek, i hope your still around.

God made the Earth, the Seas, the grass, herbs, and fruit trees the third day.

God made the sun, the moon, and the stars the fourth day.

God made the twisting serpents and and every living creature that moves and all the flying creatures IN the seas and IN the earth the fifth day.

On the sixth day, God brought forth FROM THE EARTH the living creatures, the cattle, the creeping things, and the beast of the earth.

Fom in the earth outward these came.

God then, on the sixth day, created mankind, lowest degree of Adam, anthropos, male and female.

God rested after this and said, "This is all good and He made the Sabbath."

That was God, Elohiym, the family. The stars, the sun, the moon, the earth, the living creatures, and mankind.

But notice carefully, mankind was not yet on the earth.

JEHOVAH, the LORD God, formed His mankind, which He called Adam, from the dust of the earth.

Jehovah planted a garden in Eden and in that garden HE caused to grow the good and pleasant trees for food in that garden for the mankind he created.

That garden was the Earth, this earth.

That garden had the rivers, the continents, precious stones, but no creatures, no cattle, or creeping things.

Jehovah didn't think that man could handle His creation, so FROM THE GROUND (earth and ground are different words) he formed the beast OF THE FIELD (field and ground mean the same) and birds and brought them to mankind so that mankind would have some help, but none were found to help Adam.

I do not think that there were dinosaurs on this earth until sin was found in Satan, the covering of the Earth.

The reason the sin was found is because Adam had a principle of thought and the sin was not allowing that principle of thought to be the force in the formation of the thought, i.e. the force was goodness, gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, etc.. Sin is missing the mark.

The sin was the harshness and the hardness of the earth.

If the dinosaurs existed, they came from inside the earth after the sin was found, and maybe they were the sin.

gregg,
look at this passage in Genesis:
4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

the garden of eden is a location on this earth.
NOT the earth itself.

Gregg,
look grat this passage in Genesis:
4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
----------------------------------
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, (5113) on the east (6926) of Eden.(5731)

EAST
קדמה
qidmâh
kid-maw'
Feminine of H6924; the forward part (or relatively) East (often adverbially on the East or in front): - east (-ward).

H6924
קדמה קדם
qedem qêdmâh
keh'-dem, kayd'-maw
From H6923; the front, of place (absolutely the fore part, relatively the East) or time (antiquity); often used adverbially (before, anciently, eastward): - aforetime, ancient (time), before, east (end, part, side, -ward), eternal, X ever (-lasting), forward, old, past. Compare H6926.
H6923

קדם
qâdam
kaw-dam'
A primitive root; to project (one self), that is, precede; hence to anticipate, hasten, meet (usually for help): - come (go, [flee]) before, + disappoint, meet, prevent.


(of) EDEN
עדן
‛êden
ay'-den
The same as H5730 (masculine); Eden, the region of Adam’s home: - Eden.

H5730
עדנה עדן
‛êden ‛ednâh
ay'-den, ed-naw'
From H5727; pleasure: - delicate, delight, pleasure. See also H1040.

H5727
עדן
‛âdan
aw-dan'
A primitive root; to be soft or pleasant; figuratively and reflexively to live voluptuously: - delight self.

H1040
בּית עדן
bêyth ‛êden
bayth ay'-den
From H1004 and H5730; house of pleasure; Beth-Eden, a place in Syria: - Beth-eden.

Eden had all of the pleasant things or Eden was the pleasant things. Cain murdered or he somehow slew his brother and he was sent to the land of Nod.

(land of) Nod
נוד
nôd
node
The same as H5112; vagrancy; Nod, the land of Cain: - Nod.

H5112
נד נודּ
nôd nôd
node, node
From H5110; exile: - wandering.

H5110
נוּד
nûd
nood
A primitive root; to nod, that is, waver; figuratively to wander, flee, disappear; also (from shaking the head in sympathy), to console, deplore, or (from tossing the head in scorn) taunt: - bemoan, flee, get, mourn, make to move, take pity, remove, shake, skip for joy, be sorry, vagabond, way, wandering.

Adam and Eve were already punished for following the serpent. Their pleasant things were taken away; Eden was blocked. Adam had to toil now and the ground was giving him what he wanted. God was just in his punishment. They were just as sorry as they could be, but there was no changing the sentence. Their power was gone. In their minds, God implanted the words, 'It is not your fault; though now, it is my responsibility to bring you back.' The damage done was to the life, the blood. I am trying to transmit this to you so you can understand the true meaning but it is hard, but it has to do with the flesh and the spirit.

Cain and Abel were twins. Cain was the flesh, Abel was the spirit. Adam was the flesh, Eve was the spirit. I can't explain starting with Cain, it must start with Adam and Eve. The helper of Adam was the twin of Adam; his spirit.
Something is pulling my mind away so I will go and return later.

Something is pulling your mind away gregg.

The Holy Spirit!

I pray he will send good teachers and counselors across your path to help and instruct you in the inerrant word of God and also to help you get free from the bondage of occult teachings that bring confusion and the false gospel message you are trying to deliver to others.
And l ask it for you in Jesus name!

miki,

Thank you for your concern.

Miki, you're like saying "I know it all better for you", you fill in your prayers with your own speculative wishes and at the same time you ask for others to know it better for Gregg.
Where is God's own decision in this story? Learn to trust Miki, that's all that's asked of you.
If the Holy Spirit is drawing us away sometimes from deep and sincere bible researches, it's perhaps to point us to the risk of needing some breathing pause.

So may we?

Greets, Divinespark.

Welcome to the board Divinespark!

Not sure if you've noticed, but some of the posts you're responding to were written in 2006. The date is on the top of each post. Just wanted to bring it to your attention in case you didn't know and to say hello too!

Blessings to you and enjoy the forum!!
Lisa

Hi to you too, I noticed that as well
Better late than never.
I'll try my best to look for an active topic now.

No doubt dinosaurs and man co-existed. They have actual fossil records that in some cases...walking side by side.

So much for evolutionary theory.

Anybody looking into Creation Science?

yeah, i don't know why someone would be threatened by this idea.

ANCIENT DINO ART:

From Peru
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/peru-tomb-rock-...ceratops-th.jpg
http://ontarioghosthunters.bravehost.com/m...inosaur_ica.jpg

From Cambodia
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-cambodia-stegasarus.jpg

American Indian
http://www.bible.ca/tracks/dino-art-wall-e...d-canyon-th.jpg

Others can be seen here:
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/ancient/ancient.htm

I guess
:::::::::::::::::Evolution:::

has gone out the window

Thanks!

those websites were fascinating!

i wonder if any of the dino's were hunted to extinction? by men or animals?

in my County, USA, the local people hunted the bears to extinction (almost).........because the bears would eat the hogs, so,.........every time there were any bears in the area, the men would track it, and kill it.
that was about 70 years ago.

that is so interesting...

the bears hunted the hogs and ate them...
it somehow reminds my of the big and little dipper...
i don't know exactly why...

These birds feed at my house here in Africa. They are larger than chickens and they have a very Dino look about them (in fact I am looking at 8 of them right now and then I thought about this thread)


I am sure you would agree, that if they were only drawings on cave walls, they would qualify ! Look at the prehistoric horn on the head !!

I love them (Guinea Fowls )



Actually these guys are here as well and they are not totally above suspicion as well

Despite the fact that fossilization takes a good few million years to occur. It goes without saying that it would be a little hard for every single cell in an animals skeleton to become mineralized in just a few thousend years, infact it wouldent even be close to petrification (a semi-fossilized state).
Also you misenteperate these sedentary layers. Each layer is a separate section, layed down indevidually, often of silt, sand and tiny fossles. This is then compressed by further layers forming on top, a process that again takes a verry long time (were talking in the millions of years again) to form rock. And it has to take this sort of time, as silt dosen't just sit there and turn itself into rock. Slow compression is needed to physically squash all the matter together. Its the same priciple that forms coal and oil, onley its rotted plant matter that gets compressed.
Thus it would be pointless to use these layers as evidence backing the theory of a flood, as it shows instead a gradual building up of layers over a long period, rather then everything suddenly being covered by one big sweep.

With these facts in mind it is a little unclear as to how your theory functions, although I am intrested to hear anyone with there own intellegent slant on the matter.

Lived-Moon ("Livid"-Moon?),

QUOTE

Despite the fact that fossilization takes a good few million years to occur.

Actually, no, it doesn't. I'll try to hunt down the book and section in my personal "library" which gives evidence for this, but probably I won't be able to find it until sometime Sunday. In the meantime, your theory (that fossilization takes a few millions of years to occur) also has the problem of explaining dinosaur blood contained in partially fossilized dinosaur bone (if I remember the reports correctly, from an article back in 2004 or 2005, I believe).