Global population is still rising by about 78 million people a year. ... The Cairo Consensus. Fortunately, there is a global consensus on what needs to be done. ...
www.unfpa.org/swp/1999/pressumary1.htm ..................this would mean that at any given time, roughly, there would be 780 million children from age10&under,under the age of accountability on the earth, when Daniels 70th week began, if the Bride of Jesus were on earth. ..........Nov.9,2003 a report estimated that some 170-million identify themselves as Christians and the nation boasts 350,000 congregations of every description and belief. Over 68,000 seminary students prepare for religious leadership in the United States....... United Methodists rank third in total Congressional membership, following Roman Catholics in first place and Baptists in second. Presbyterians, Jews and Episcopalians are in fourth, fifth and sixth places. Nondenominational Protestants, Lutherans, Mormons and nondenominational Christians complete the top 10 religious groups represented in Congress....Based on the following website, experts estimate that there are about 2 billion christians on earth....but of course there are many who will say "Lord, Lord"....http://www.abpnews.com/1418.article


......................................Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus, The information above is only a very extreme rough picture of the possible number of christians on earth, babies, and children under the age of accountability, christians in u.s. congress ...not including most christians in public offices in the U.S. ....or globally...................Some say that the revealing of the ac happens at the A.O.D......As to where I believe that The revealing happens when the ac confirms a 7 yr. agreement which includes the building of the third temple...................It seems to me that anyone who knows bible prophecy, would know that whoever confirms this agreement with Israel with the temple involved, would know that he is the ac.......And if the Bride were still here on earth.......There would be 500 million? Billy Grahams knocking on everyones door.......Christian politicians refusing to sign and agree to anything immoral or ungodly.......They had just wittnessed the sign that began the trib...or should I say...Daniels 70th week.....I do not know about you....but if were me......I would be running as fast as I could, telling everyone that man is the ac, and that Jesus is coming.....I surely would not hide in the mountains.....That would be like hiding the gift the Lord gave me......But the problem with that is....If The bride were here when Daniels 70th week began, Basicly, the Bride would be screaming.....The ac is here!....You gotta accept Jesus now!...But if you do....He's gonna cut off your head!....that does not sound too encouraging, when it comes to convince unbelievers to acept The Lord Jesus into their heart.....But here in the old U.S. of A. , we have sons and daughters in the armed forces, who are born again christians, who know not to take the mark or even attack Israel.................All this does not seem to pan out in the post trib view.......No,..The Bride will not be here when Daniels 70th week begins.It is the disapearance of the Bride that convinces multitudes to acept the Lord and be willing to die and refusing the mark......Let's say that Daniels 70th week has begun, and the Third Temple was being built before our very eyes.....I cannot tell you that there is 2 billion christians on the globe....as far as I know there maybe 500 million?..Taking into consideration of the "Lord,Lord" statement.......But with the Signing of a 7 yr. agreement and the third temple being built....The worlds christians would go into 100% wittness mode, bringing millions to the Lord......the ac could never controll the earth under those conditions......If the mark of the beast began today....How many of you would cooperate....It's my guess no one on this forum..................And when they said to you....Johnny..take this mark or we will cut off your head......You would probally stick your tongue at them and laugh until you cry....Because you know that you know.....That boldness that you would have..and knowing where you are going...................No,....The Bride will not be here when Daniels 70th week begins........................................For Greater is HE that is in you, than he that is in the world ...........The United States of America is Israel's one true allie.....But when the rapture comes to pass....It will be a different ballgame,.....The bride will be gone, the christians in government will be gone which no one to take Israel's side.......At this time, Israel longs to become integregated with the European Union for security reasons....It is not hard to picture what is going to happen soon...and where things are heading propheticlyThe Holy Spirit is restraining the evil in the world,...but once He is taken out of the way, He takes the Bride out of the way with Him, and We will meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we be forever with Him...............................................God Bless To You All.................................................................benny

Don't you think this forum had enough pre-trip theories by now?
C

And What is that to you"C".......................follow Jesus,.................................................................................................................God Bless...benny

I sincerely believe in a pre-Rapture theory. God gave me a book to write about time, and bless God's heart, the Rapture is just like a COUNTDOWN; period. Since God created time, it's typical "Him" to have imagine such a grandiose act that will leave no one indifferent.

When I think about Moses at Sinai, and the whole mountain trembling, and God's voice sounding like a trumpet, I tell myself that if very much possible (as for myself I am convinced; as the comic says:"Its my opinion and I share it" (hihi!) )

So yes, the idea of a pre-trib Rapture is very well in the "backpockets of God". And still, there will be people who won't believe. When I talk to my (unsaved) sister about the miracles that are happening today, she STILL DON'T BELIEVE!

But to the believer, it makes sense!

That reminds me of when I was 10. I went to the mountain to ski with my class and my teacher. We had to use a tiny ski lift (you know, the thingy where you barely can place half of your hinder part and you have to hold to a perch...)

I was a draemer. I knew I had to WATCH when it was my turn in the long queue of people to "GO GRAB" that thing. If I was not thinking, and EXPECTING it to come, I WOULD MISS IT, and it would go up the slope, EMPTY, and I WOULD HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL IT WAS MY TURN AGAIN...

That same though has been plaguing me lately... God works in mysterious ways!

That's why I believe that IF WE ARE NOT WATCHING AND EXPECTING! for the Rapture to come and get us, we will be left behind. It all boils down TO FAITH!!!

Jesus said 1) WATCH
2) PRAY

A WATCH SHOWS TIME! (WOW, now, this is plain!)

Where is the part in bold found in scripture?

These scriptures offer a contrary message:

Romans 2:
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Do you suppose those "left behind" will realize the goodness of God and repent? I think not. Most will curse whom they perceive to be an unjust God. What! Leave me behind?! I'm a good person too! They will confess Christ as much as those that are thrust into hell (who don't, but rather, nash their teeth at him).

2 Thessalonians 2:
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Revelation 9:
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

I've come to realize that it would not be "being left behind" that turns hearts, but the Holy Spirit working through the saints who've been thrust into the "wilderness" to separate them from the world, who minister the love of Christ to the suffering lost during the tribulation.

Here's the "one" guy SOP:

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Here's all those that will be like him in the end, betraying the body of Christ to death, right after they fall away from the truth due to persecution:

2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It's likened to this: There was one Israel (Jacob). There are many of Israel (the people)--same comparison to Judas, who no one knew, until he was revealed.

Matthew 26:22
And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

May we contemplate the scriptures apart from tradition.

In Christ,

Mike

Revelations points out that there will be multitudes that no man could number, that came out of the tribulation.....So apartently, many did come to the Lord who were left behind. ......But what about the deal with Judas......The following scriptures seem to explain.....(I am so glad that I am a christian).........I say to you, who are we to judge God?........................Acts 13:48
And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom.8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom.9:11-22
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Eph.1:4-5
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

2 Th.2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.

2 Tim.1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation........................................................................................................................................I do know that we cannot obtain salvation, by just being good.......................You Quote=..."Matthew 26:22
And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?.....But in John 21;22....The Lord says;....What is that to you?...follow Me.......................................................................................................benny

Not any more than they've had enough of post trib theories!

Speaking of pre-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, etc. I noted an interesting correlation this morning between the following two passages of scripture that I've never noticed before:

Matthew 24:
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Correlating scripture?:

Revelation 7:
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

It just leaves me hanging on "how fast will they be sealed," and also, "will they walk as the 'Lion of the Tribe of Judah?'"

Could this begin the fulfillment of the second half of:

Isaiah 61
1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

It makes me wonder if the truth is that it's more of a "pre-anointing" than a "pre-rapture".

In either case, may the Lord come in the power of his glory in truly Spirit-filled saints, as a final act of mercy, to call the world to repentance and faith in HIM, and purify his bride to obedience, before the Day of the Lord!

In Christ,

Mike

P.S. What do you think, Cornelius?

Malachi 3:16
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

Amen brother.

I believe that the angel holding the seal of the living God will seal those who became believers AFTER THE RAPTURE, DURING THE TRIBULATION; as such, they are not appointed to wrath.

As for the 144,000, of course, it's a symbolic number, showing the fullness of the plan of God (an even number); divided equally among the 12 tribes at large in the world; no tribe will be superior to another. 144,000 is a definite number; not like "multitudes, etc... and therefore it denotes a counting that has taken place before the foundations of the world.

I've been thinking. I believe the number 153 is the number of the raptured church, sealed by the Holy Spirit.

144,000 is the number of the preserved church during tribulation, a much bigger number than 153 and maybe a sign of an enormous harvest of souls!

You are mixing up "wrath" and "tribulation" > They are two different things.
C

C...You wanted to know where this is in scripture...

Let me ask you a question.

What if you were sitting in church and felt the wind kiss your cheek...

In an instant half the people are gone. What is the first thing that would come to your mind?

And after that...What is the second thing?

And let me ask you a question. What if a flock of pink pigs flew past your window with church members sitting on their backs? What would your first thought be and then after that.... What is the second thing?

I've been trying to find the scripture for this event too and can't find it.

I'd think..... Pink pigs !!! Move over...here l come!



All pigs do go to heaven! After all...God made them clean...

Very good. Now thats funny.

I tried to think of an amusing answer but truly I cannot
I do not just believe that the rapture will be at the last trumpet/resurrection , I KNOW it, because I can see it in the Bible.

OK , I will give it a bash: My first thought will be. Miki is thinking "This is the Rapture" as she is flying up.

Second thought: I know today is the 1st of April, so I wonder how long before they are back. I will put the kettle on so long. Miki is going to need a strong cuppa soon.

Now l know you're not telling the truth!

All around the world people are persecuted and martyred so where is the pretrib rapture? What is it that makes some group more worthy than another. Faith is refined and tempered in the adversity, so why should there be a special class of people not in need of the purifying refinement and hardening of being tempered and made acceptable? Pretrib is escapist fantasy for itching ears, empty and lacking in solid meat to build faith on.

The 'Great Escape' Misunderstanding
by Jack Kinsella of OmegaLetter.com


One of the principle misunderstandings concerning the Rapture revolves around its purpose. Critics of a pre-Tribulation Rapture deride it as some pie-in-the-sky 'Great Escape' for Christians living in the last days.

There is no such promise of 'escape' from tribulation, they argue, and (correctly) point out the Bible's promise that 'in this world ye shall have tribulation' so the pretribulational hope of a 'Great Escape' is not only delusional, it is unscriptural.

The fact is, if the pretribulational hope WAS for a 'Great Escape' from tribulation, they would be correct. There is NO promise that the Church will escape tribulation, but there is an iron-clad promise that the Church will not go through the seven years of tribulation described by Jeremiah as the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble' or outlined by Daniel as Israel's '70th Week.'

There are several reasons for a pretribulational Rapture, not the least of which is the purpose of the Tribulation in God's unfolding Plan for the ages.

The purpose of the seven year Tribulation Period is two-fold. The first reason is to fulfill Daniel's prophecy of the 70 Weeks. The angel told Daniel that:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24)

Note there are six elements to the fulfillment of this prophecy. First, to finish Israel’s sin – the rejection of the Messiah at the First Advent.

Then there is a skip forward in time to His Second Advent, at which time, an end will be made of sin, reconciliation will be made for Israel’s iniquity, everlasting righteousness will be introduced to Israel, Israel’s Scriptures will be vindicated by the fulfillment of all prophecy and finally, the return of Christ at the conclusion of the war of Armageddon, at which time He will be anointed and will take His seat at the Throne of David.

Between the First and Second Advents there is the Church Age, a 'mystery' unrevealed to the Hebrew prophets. That is why Daniel's outline of 490 years of Israeli history doesn't anticipate a gap between the 'cutting off of the Messiah' at the end of the sixty-nine weeks of years and the confirmation of the covenant by the antichrist at the onset of the 70th. (Daniel 9:27)

From Daniel's perspective, it is an unbroken narrative of what would befall 'his people' (the Jews) and 'his holy city' (Jerusalem), culminating with the 'anointing of the Most Holy' at the conclusion of the 70th week and the ushering in of Isaiah's Millennial Kingdom. There is no role set aside for the Church in prophecy during the 70th Week, since it is reserved for Israel's national redemption and their acceptance of the Messiah.

The Church has, by definition, already accepted the Messiah and was redeemed at the Cross.

The second purpose Scripture gives for the Tribulation Period is that it is a period of judgment against those who reject Christ and embrace the antichrist.

Since Christians who accept Christ were already judged at the Cross, there is no role set aside for the Church in the judgments pronounced because, "Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Revelation 9:21)

Repentance is a necessary condition of salvation, it is that repentance that causes us to seek forgiveness at the Cross in the first place. Since believers in the Church Age became believers by repenting, there is no purpose for bringing the judgment of an unrepentant world on the Church.

The Rapture isn't a 'Great Escape', contrary to popular belief. The Rapture occurs when the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is removed with the Church to allow the onset of the 7 year period of unrestrained evil that occurs during the Tribulation. (2nd Thessalonians 2:7)

The Rapture is the Blessed Hope of the Church, but it's primary purpose is not so much a 'rescue mission' as it is a necessary function of the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit's ministry of restraining evil. Since we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, when the Restrainer is withdrawn, so are we, since we are His vessels.

Therefore, it is certain to conclude that the Church won't be here for the Tribulation itself, since withdrawing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from the believing Church would leave them spiritually defenseless at a time of maximum need, something Jesus promised He would never do.

Jesus said we could trust Him that He would never forsake His Church, and His Church is defined as being composed of believers who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you FOREVER. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

But there is no reason to conclude the Church will be Raptured for the purpose of providing a 'Great Escape' for, as I said, the Rapture is necessary to withdrawal of the Restrainer, rather than a rescue mission to the Church.

"I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." (John 14:18)

Christians have suffered in every generation, and continue to suffer persecution and death for their faith today in places like Vietnam, China, Sudan and most of the Islamic world.

There is no promise to the Church of the last days for a 'rescue' but rather, the Rapture is the fulfilment of an EXISTING Promise Jesus made that the Holy Spirit would Personally indwell believers and guide us in all truth 'forever'.

"In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (John 14:2-3)

For believers, our finite understanding of 'forever' begins with Pentecost and continues to the Rapture, at which point 'forever' takes on its eternal meaning for all believers covered under the Covenant between Jesus and the Church.

"Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:18)


..................................benny

I feel cynical. It must be a sinful way to feel.

All of those people that have had tribulation... If we understand it according to C... It's because people didn't (haven't) appropriated what they have... Therefore "My people perish for lack of knowledge." So if we look at it through C's eyes.. what men have gone through isn't because freedom, power and escape wasn't offered but we didn't get the word down in us...

So now according to the teaching C is offering...If we get the word down in us like it's suppose to be then the tribulation won't touch us. We will sail through by the miraculous working of our faith.

I'm not picking on you C.. but l want to bring to light a thorough understanding of this teaching and how and why it is taught.

C... you believe practicing the word will bring into manifestation the miraculous? This is what we will need for the end times tribulation? Can this happen when someone crushes your hand with a hammer? Is it lack of faith that cause tribulation?

Believing that belief will be an escape in tribulation seems just as far fetched to me as the rapture seems to some of you. I know l'm beating a dead horse...

Time is up...That's what l remember. Everything goes on as usual..'buying and selling...giving and taking in marriage... seed time and harvest' ... until! That great and terrible day of the Lord...

The purpose of the chastisement of the Lord and tribulation.

There's a line of difference and it can be confusing if your not walking in the Spirit. ...but l believe chastisement will come first. I also think it will appear to be the beginning of the tribulation but it won't be. Then the mockers and scoffers will really come out of the wood work... This is when l see a great revival taking place...Then in the midst of chastisement turned to tribulation. wah lah! We're gone. Door closed. The restrainer has removed his hands. Some place in that green area, all is go. The twinkle, twinkle will no longer be a wonder but a known.

Miki,

The Christian is appointed to suffering, just as Christ, regardless of our faith. Each will have a measure, and it may not be the same amounts. God is sovereign over it. It is his grace that sees us through it, by our faith. Is the tribulation not merely a time of "enhanced" suffering? The wicked will curse. However, the Christian will rejoice. The bride will be purified and purged of the "Judases" among her, for when suffering (tribulation) comes, they will fall away, and reveal the son of perdition.

Scripture references:

Hebrews 5:
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

1 Peter 2:
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

1 Peter 4:13
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

2 Corinthians 1:
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 John 2:
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The church has all too often thought of THE tribulation as something appointed to those, bad, wicked people, who miss the rapture. It seems more in line with scripture to say that it is for the good of the church. The one year "Day of the Lord" would then come against the wicked when the church is safely in the "ark" "after the tribulation of those days".

More references:

Deuteronomy 4:30
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

May we receive a love of the truth. May the Lord be glorified through our loving obedience unto him.

In Christ,

Mike

Miki I agree with Mike.
Also let me give an example of faith in action during tribulation.

One would be knowing the promise about supply.


In the tribulation we will need food, water, etc. Some Christians will be practised in their faith, having believed this scripture BEFORE the tribulation. They will be leaning on the Lord , trusting Him for their daily food, water etc, plus the Lord will supply this to them. Their needs will be met. So in their needs being supplied, thy will not have tribulation, will they?

Also those who are at the moment trusting the Lord (practising their faith) in relation to Psalm 91, will be going through some things that they see the hand of God in protecting them. So in the tribulation, when they need protection from gas, bombs etc, they simply move into a place of safety. A place that they have been many times before , BEFORE the tribulation. He that DWELLETH in the shadow......not he that sometimes only as a last resort......no..dwelleth. Its something Christians do daily. We practise faith willingly, because there are times coming when it will be too late to depend on the flesh.
Some will run around scared, because in these times they are so at ease. Some have told me that they will trust the Lord in the tribulation, but for now, they have their insurance.
Well, good for them. I hope they are fast learners, because I see something coming. I spend all my spare time with the Lord regarding this and still I see my lack of understanding and faith. So all I have to say is, if you guys think there will be time to learn about it in the Trib, then there is a shock waiting for you.

Faith is what will carry us through. Faith in the done works of the Lord. Faith is something that grows and needs to be tested. The time is almost here and I am really scared for the church's sake.
C

Mike...



These things are happening in the here and now...to those who 'really' believe. It's always gone on. Enhanced? Don't tell that to Fox's Martyrs...or the holocost survivors...they might get discouraged.

It has always happened, plus it has always been to those, according to their faith.You cannot say that faith does not work (for that is the implication) because some died. We have faith, but from my experience in Christianity: It is seldom that we meet somebody that actually walks in it. The rest is all Christianese "Oh dear sister, the Lord is faithful, just believe" You hear that normally followed by a loud "Aaaamen" but those people's lives show nothing of this faith. When in a real situation, they do not really run to God.

Sorry, I have been one of them, so I know them well. I have been down the religious road and I am not prepared to stay on it any longer. Many are happy there, but I am not.

Its upsetting to some, but let it be.I have to stand before God one day and explain why I did not believe His Word. If you are happy with this as the ultimate experience in Christianity, then stay here. I believe in more.It disturbs those who are happy with where they are, that I know. I live amongst them.

I am not going to base my life on a holocaust victim's lot, when the Bible is teaching me to have faith. Why would I?
C

All these years on the forum and you've accused me of the worst sin...

Not believing...with a "dear sister" attached...

Miki, stop taking everything I say as meant for you personally!!!!!
I live amongst this crowd who I am referring to. They speak like that, but have no real faith. It is not even their fault, it is the fault of the teachers of the church. The church EVRYWHERE , not just you Miki. Read it again, and see if the "dear sister" has ANYTHING to do with you. Your name is not even close to it. I am talking about the system people call Christianity.

Me, personally, when I move amongst Christians ..............., I am tired of Christianese. The way they speak in a holy sounding language without saying anything real at all. Another thing I dislike is when a person (me for instance ) is trying to say something and they interrupt me with Christianese. The have no clue WHAT I am saying , but they nod their heads and say"AAAAAmen brother" and even finish my sentences for me. But I know them and I KNOW they have no clue what I am talking about.
THAT is what I mean. I hate religious talk with no meaning. Pretty words that "sound right" but mean nothing. They somehow have the power to make some people feel all spiritual.

C

I just thought about it and I think it is true. The fact that you can take what I have written and say that it says I say :dear sister" to you , can only mean that you do not read my posts with comprehension. You skim them. That would explain why you always have difficulty in understanding what I am trying to say.

I do hear what you are saying...I believe most of it..not all according to your interpretation. But enough to fellowship.

C....Faith begins as a seed..It grows. You may want a tree immediately but most people just grow up by faith according to the word.

We see the changes over time and in due season...'A time for every purpose under heaven' reveals the manifest presence of the Lord in us.

I know what you want to happen...I've wanted it to. And in fact have seen a partial fulfillment of my hopes and expectations... but not the fullness.

In due season God will make himself known in us fully.

But as much as you want to see it happen and as hard as you try to explain faith to people...It's only by the working of the Spirit in peoples lives that this will happen. In God's timing.

We can encourage people with a word or two according to their situation but you can't try to force feed people. It's never worked.

I believe the Bible is the inspired work and word of God...A gift for all of man kind. An open door to know the Creator of the universe. My...what an awesome venture into the known and unknown.

Give it just a little more time C. You won't be disappointed. God is faithful to complete the work he's begun in us.

Thanks for all the time you've devoted to enthusiastically sharing what you've discovered...Even if God's not done with you yet, l appreciate what he's doing in your life and in lives of others that l see here on this forum.

Thank you for your kind answer Miki.
I also want to explain a bit of the "why" from my side. The reason is not to force feed and I am sorry if it comes across as that. We are on the Internet, and people move past this forum as well (last count was
500 000 hits last year) I do know that what I share is not so accessible for a lot of people . It is difficult to understand. I have difficulty with a lot of it myself. Just this morning I was talking to a friend about it. We have been talking for about an hour per day for a year on the phone every day, only discussing revelations in the Bible. Something happened to both of us.
Now I have a cell group on Thursdays with about nine people. Another one starting on Friday nights. All people who came and said: Please come back and tell us. We are hungry.
Even in these groups, we go over and over the same things and now and then a "light" goes on. Most people here have a problem understanding a few concepts (I include myself. It is getting better, only through God's grace. Through a lot of prayer and believing that God will open understanding)

Difficulty 1. The concept of having been crucified with Christ. No longer living, but Christ now lives in us.
That is very difficult to bring into our reality, as an every day living experience.

2.Walking in the Word and not just hearing it.

3."getting" Jesus = Word (there are too many human reasoning that needs to be overcome for some. I battled with this. Only God released that knowledge to me after prayer, not before)

4. Seeing that we were replaced by Jesus in God's eyes.

5. Believing that the curse has been taken away. We spent a lot of time in the groups taking about what it really means. How far has the curse been removed? Is it really gone? Difficult to understand.

6. Restoring Biblical principles to the Body of Christ like : What role does the imagination play in our walk (we are to cast down evil imaginations, how do we use the good imaginations in relation to faith. A very interesting Bible study!

7. What is Biblical faith. Is it just believing IN God, or is it also believing WHAT HE says in the Bible.

8.Difficult one: seeing Christ in you in the "mirror" ALWAYS. Learning that we are dead and that HE is really forming and growing in His people. Getting to understand that the BODY of Christ is a real body and not just a word. A body with a function, with a head (Christ Jesus)

9> Big one and difficult without a pot of prayer: All the promises are past tense. WHY?

That is just a few. But I had all these and more questions and one man took the time to write about all these things on the Web.. I read it and my "lights came on".
Now in thankfulness to the Lord, I am doing the same.Prayerfully in the hope that somebody will pass by and go: OH God, thank you, I have been looking for this! (like I did )

In this process, MANY do not take the time to understand it by really praying and asking the Lord about it. I have learned that God locks up truth if we pass Him by.We have to ask , before we receive.

So Miks. I am here, not for Cornelius, but out of gratitude towards the Lord.I was so very hungry for the Word and He heard my cry. So I am putting forth that which I am getting from Him, ..........just in case, there is somebody out there in CyberSpace that has the same need as me.

For a long time I felt as if I was swimming upstream, because of all my teaching I received in the thirty years of church life. I studied full time for a year some time ago and not all was correct (I later found out) So I had to ask the Lord to rid me of false docrtines. Ouch, that is not easy, He is still busy.

But slowly I am starting to see the picture more clearly. I never even knew there was a picture to see.I never knew God had a purpous (other than taking us to heaven) on this earth for us.

love C

My story is something like that...It's called growing in the word. It does take time.

God brought the changing seasons for a reason. It's for man..and His own good pleasure.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Hey...I only have cats and dogs...but you have a wild animal in your back yard! Eee Gads! And he bucks people!

...and some strange birds. I am feeding them right now. I will look for a pic of the hornbill and post it in "just for funn"
C

If the first ressurection happenes before the great tribulation when the mark of the beast is issued and all must worship the beast or his image. Then why does in Revelation Ch.20 John say he saw those who had been behead for their testimony about Jesus and those who did not worship the beast and his image come to life and rule with Jesus for 1000 year, and this is the first ressurection, blessed and holy are those who take part in the first ressurection, for the second death(lake of fire)has no power over them. For the rest of the dead(condemed) did not come to life until the 1000 years ended.

I am at work and no bible, but that pretty close to what it says. What does logic tell you about the correct truth of the word of God.
Please an honest answer

Dear EndTimeCalling,.....Here is you answer...................................................................The following is by David Reagan, as to which I agree with 100%...........There are three resurrections, which all three consist of the "First Resurrection" and blessed are those who take part of this first resurrection.....David Reagan also answers the question of what happens to those who die during the millenium, and reveals that if people have come to the Lord, by asking Him into their heart before having entered, and during the millenium will not die..."Which is backed up by scripture...................................................... Read the topic called "The Martyred Saints Of Revelations & The Harvest" to get a clear understanding, located in the "General Bible Study" section on Christian-Forum........The Post-trib believers cannot change the order of the Harvest and how it relates to the pre-trib rapture......and it frustrates them................................................................................................Multiple Resurrections
Concerning resurrection, Jesus clearly taught that there would be more than one resurrection. In John 5:29 He refers to a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of judgment." The apostle Paul confirmed this concept in his defense before Felix when he stated that he believed the teaching of the prophets "that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15).
Of course, it could be argued that the two resurrections referred to in these scriptures will occur at the same time. Thus, because they will happen simultaneously, there is, in effect, only one resurrection. However, the Scriptures establish the fact that the resurrection of the righteous will occur in stages.
In other words, the Bible does not teach one resurrection or even two resurrections in number. Rather, it teaches that there will be two resurrections in type which will be conducted in stages, resulting in several resurrections — at least four, to be specific.

The Resurrection of the Just
That the resurrection of the righteous will occur in stages is clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 15:20-24. In fact, the first stage of the resurrection of the righteous has already happened, for verse 20 says that "Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep."
Verses 22 and 23 go on to explain that all who have died in Christ shall be made alive, "but each in his own order: Christ, the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming."
The imagery of the harvest that is used in these verses is a key to understanding the first resurrection — the resurrection of the righteous.
The Harvest Imagery
In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.
It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).
Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).
Some people are startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. But keep in mind that the Rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only. Also, the book of Daniel makes it clear that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress" (Daniel 12:1-2).
So the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, occurs in three stages, beginning with Christ, continuing with the Church at the Rapture, and culminating with the Tribulation martyrs and the Old Testament saints at the return of Jesus.
The Resurrection of the Unjust
The second type of resurrection, "the resurrection of the wicked" (Acts 24:15), will take place all at one time at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. This is at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, the judgment of the damned (Revelation 20:11-15).
Every person who ever failed to relate to God in faith will be resurrected at this time, regardless of when he or she may have lived and died — whether before or after the Cross. This resurrection will also include the unjust who died during the Tribulation and the Millennium.
There will be no need for an additional resurrection of the righteous at the end of the Millennium, because all those born during that time who accept Jesus as their Savior will live to the end of the Lord's reign (Isaiah 65:19-20). "'As the lifetime of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,'. . . says the Lord" (Isaiah 65:22,25). In other words, life spans during the Millennium will be returned to what they were at the beginning of time, before the flood.......................................................Zechariah 14;16...................................After searching the scriptures and putting much thought and prayer, I will reveal what I have come up with reguarding this scripture...............First, I will paste the scriptures of Matthew 25;31-46
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.".................Here we have all the nations gathered before the Lord Who is sitting on His throne,.....The battle of armageddon is done and overwith...........and the Lord is about to Judge the nations that fought against Jerusalem...........What comes to mind is that not all the people from all nations were probally not involved in fighting against Jerusalem......What I had to take into consideration was that while all nations were fighting against Jerusalem, that there were old men and women too old too fight, that there were crippled people, children over the age of accountability, not all people could not be transported to Jerusalem to fight against it,.....That there were unsaved men and women who were hiding and protecting Jews, from the anti-christ......The unsaved men and women, fed , clothed, and protected the Jews, thus they were friends to each other.......Many mourned when they say the Lord descending towards the earth, which is a first step towards repentence...........These unsaved people were a blessing to the Jews who were hiding from the anti-christ......with this in mind, comes to mind a scripture from the book Genesis.....which states: "Blessed are those that blesses thee, and cursed is him that curses thee"...............with that scripture in mind, think about the sheep and goat judgement.............To get a better understanding and insight to the survivors of Zech 14;16.........go to.........http://endtimepilgrim.org/2turtledoves.htm...............................So to sum this all up........There is a rapture prior to Daniels 70th week..........there is a resurrection of O.T. saints and slain tribulation saints at the physical second coming of Jesus Christ........The tribulation saints who were "NOT" slain and the Sheep(survivors of Zech 14;16) will enter the millenium in their physical earthly bodies.........Those who have accepted the Lord in the millenium will live as the lifetime of a tree (Isaiah 65:22,25). .........But yet forever.......Why do I say this?.....The reason why is because once the millenium has expired, we have the "Great White Throne Judgement".....And in the scriptures, you will read that "DEATH AND HELL" were also cast into the lake of fire...............................................................................................God Bless to You All.......................................................................................benny

alot of words for nothing in my opinion. you said it yourself. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24. Those when Christ was ressurected and those at his second coming. note that the word coming is singular. No where in the bible does it state he will come three time. only twice. First as a servant second as a king. In the scripture above it calls it what it is. When he returns he will ressurect all dead in christ and we who are alive will be caught up and changed. We are only promised to escape Gods wrath. Show me where the bible says the great tribulation is the wrath of God. Cause it does not. His wrath(bowls.) are instant earth destroyers. Nothing anyone could survive for 7 or 3 1/2 years. Blessed are those whom reach 1335 cause those 45 days from the end of the age are his wrath on the earth. Lots of people will make it to the 1260 days, but those whom have worships the beast and taken his mark will perish during the wrath. Only those blessed will make it to 1335, cause they will be with the Lord during the wrath and forever. Words for thought.

DearEndTimeCalling,.....You are contradicting yourself......You state......."His wrath(bowls.) are instant earth destroyers. Nothing anyone could survive for 7 or 3 1/2 years."......And yet you post......"When he returns he will ressurect all dead in christ and we who are alive will be caught up and changed."......I have given you the truth of the matter,....It is up to you to follow up and research the scriptures......I realize that you are trying to project a post-trib view.....which is something that I have looked into. ....It is a subject that I have found many flaws in that line of thinking.........................................benny

benny balerio on June 7, 2007 at 8:35 PM in post #114914 quoting EndTimeCalling said,

"DearEndTimeCalling,.....You are contradicting yourself......You state......."His wrath(bowls.) are instant earth destroyers. Nothing anyone could survive for 7 or 3 1/2 years."......And yet you post......"When he returns he will ressurect all dead in christ and we who are alive will be caught up and changed."......I have given you the truth of the matter,....It is up to you to follow up and research the scriptures......I realize that you are trying to project a post-trib view.....which is something that I have looked into. ....It is a subject that I have found many flaws in that line of thinking.........................................benny B"


Benny, ETC is not contradicting himself, those that “are alive to be caught up and changed” are in the sheepfold, they will have been hidden in the wilderness for a year or a little more. Yeshua will go get them after he has “tread the winepress” (Isaiah 63:1-5) at the ‘battle of Armageddon’ and the ‘bowls of wrath’ are poured out.

Then their bodies will be changed and He will catch them up for a little while before they enter into His Millennial Kingdom on what I believe will be Yom Kippur, October 9, 2008.

Benny, the ‘bowls of wrath are poured out between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur.

Another factor in the ‘seventy week’ LIE is the fact that with the proliferation of nuclear strongholds throughout the world, once the United States, the “Hammer of the whole earth” is taken out of the way, the world will become a brand new ‘type of playing field’.

A big ‘king of the globe’ type mentality will set in, China, Russia, India and the likes will think ‘evil thoughts! Do we not all remember what brought WW II to a screeching halt? HIROSHIMA.

Benny, the “2300 day vision” is true, don’t hide behind THE LIES, in 490 days, the “dividing time” is over and these 490 days, as Yeshua said, could very well be “shortened”!

Then the new MILLENIUM WILL BEGIN, with our King Yeshua on the throne.

Benny, there are 250,000 Turkish troops assembling outside of Kurdistan, order the book, ‘The Day of Islam’ if you can find a copy, it’s a picture of Jeremiah 50 and 51 but its written by a secular author! Seven years or even three and a half years is really 'stretching it.

Much love Benny, giving Him the glory, gavrial

Hi ETC, I will agree with you that BB is a chronic word gusher which is never more than a whole load of fluff and nonsense after you have finished wading through it. I liken it to the great mountain of dung which a man piled up in his backyard, and because the job of carting it away was too great he found it easier to just keep piling more dung onto it. This is a trait of pre-trib rapture doctrine where extra stages for the return of Christ are invented, extra stages for attendance of the wedding supper, extra categories of saints invented, extra series of trumpets some of which are silent are dreamed up. It is a joke which any self-respecting Bible student should toss out within half an hour of reading it. It is only those people who have been "taught by experts" and who have a whole lot invested in pre-trib rapture (mountain of dung) who are unable to tackle the job of moving the mountain away.

I will disagree with you however on your statement that nobody will survive the post-trib wrath of God ie. Trumpets and bowls. It is logically essential that people survive the wrath of God or else how will God populate the millenium. I can point to many scriptures which prove that men survive the post-trib wrath. For example at the end of the millenium Satan comes out and deceives the nations and God destroys them. There are many passages describing the physical human beings and even animal sacrifices which occur during the millenium. Besides when has God ever completely destroyed mankind and not left a remnant to survive?

I would however be interested to know what passages you use to justify your claim that nobody will survive the post-trib wrath, or whether it is simply your impression or point of view which causes you to think this.

Dear Endtimecalling, Gavriel, and excubitor,.....All three of you are in error....your perception of understanding endtime prophecy is way off base, sad to say...........Why you guys are picking and choosing scriptures, in effect twisting them is beyond me.........If there was truth in what you are stating.....then I would agree with you..........There are many things that are of the post-trib view that are very very flawed, with no logic at all.....the following will reveal some of the flaws in what you are claiming.....Excubitor,....You asked me a question about the "survivors of Zechariah 14;16.....And I gave you the answer....the truth is looking you in the face, and you will see it if you can remove the pile of dung out of your mouth ........Gavriel, you talk about 2300 days......that you seem to claim was given to you, to tell everyone of something coming.....SOOOO...how many days left?.......I sense that you are claiming to be a prophet?...And I wonder if your belief is "Replacement Theology?.....Endtimecalling,....The Lord will soon call His Bride Home.....Lookup!....For your redemption draweth nigh!..........................The “thief in the night” prophecy is aimed particularly at the people who will be left behind after the rapture. That great event will certainly take most willfully ignorant Christians by total surprise, but it will not be like a “thief in the night” experience to them. We can know this from Paul the apostle's foretelling, when he writes to the Thessalonians –to all Christians of the Church Age (Age of Grace): “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness” (1 Thes. 5:2-5).
Look at the state of the world at the time previewed in these passages. We see two men in the field. Presumably they are doing some sort of agricultural work. We also see two women grinding at the mill. Again, nothing out of the ordinary. And we see two people in bed asleep. What do these snapshots suggest about life on the earth at this time? They suggest life as usual. We see only the normal activities of people, activities of a kind that flourish in a time of peace and tranquillity.
But it will not be life as usual at the end of the Tribulation. Just consider some of the last plagues. When the First Vial is poured upon the earth, "a noisome and grievous sore" will fall upon all men who wear the mark of the Beast (Rev. 16:2). What type of sore it will be, we cannot imagine. But evidently it will be very painful, and it will afflict most inhabitants of the earth. Then the second angel will pour out his vial upon the sea, which will become "as the blood of a dead man" (Rev. 16:3). In consequence, every living thing in the sea will die. When the third angel pours out his vial, all the fountains of water—that is, all the underground sources of water—will become as blood also. The next angel, the fourth, will pour out his vial upon the sun. John's alarming observation that "power was given unto him to scorch men with fire" (Rev. 16:8) suggests a sudden catastrophic rise in the temperature of the earth.
The sensible question is this. When the people of the earth are suffering from grievous sores, shortages of good water, and burning heat, will they persist in their regular work? Will men still go out to the field and tend crops? Will women still go out to the yard and mill grain? Of course not. Few crops will survive the terrible plagues. Those not killed by poisoned water or heat may succumb to the fifth plague, the darkness that falls upon the kingdom of the Beast. Moreover, few people will feel like working. Sick from sores, thirst, and heat, most people will lie in misery upon their beds. The few robust enough to stay active will huddle indoors during the day rather than face the relentless sun. Jesus said,....................During the time of Armaggeddon,...all the Eastern armies and western armies, are fighting each other...all the nations of the world are coming up against Jerusalem........Are people drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during this last battle of the great tribulation period?......Is Life going on as normal?....Yet the Lord say's,....."Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."..........Would not the Trib saints who were not slain by the ac, know from scriptures that when armaggeddon transpires before their very eyes, that the Lord is coming back at any moment?...This does not fit the description of the Lord as "COMING AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT".......................The following scriptures reveal what it will be like in those days.........
The great day of the LORD is near-- near and coming quickly. Listen! The cry on the day of the LORD will be bitter, the shouting of the warrior there. That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness, a day of trumpet and battle cry against the fortified cities and against the corner towers. I will bring distress on the people and they will walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD. Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like filth. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the Lord's wrath (Zephaniah 1:14-17)............
"See, the day of the LORD is coming --a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger." (Isaiah 13:9-13) ....The Words "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them," .........During the Great Tribulation Period,.....There will not be a period of Peace and Safety, and around the end of the Great Tribulation Period, the Word of God reveals that Destruction had been goimg on for awhile.....There was nothing sudden about it.............Obviously, life is not normal............people will not be drinking, and marrying and giving in marriage, as though life was in a normal setting...............There is a rapture of the Bride of Jesus Christ, that will come to pass just prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.........................To those who are not ready for this once in a lifetime event will be surprised by the Thief in the Night prophecy.....Today is the day of Salvation.........tomorrow may be too late to become a member of the Bride.....................................................................benny

I'll pretend I did not see that vile insult in your stream of words BB.

Dear Excubitor,...Let me guess......You can dish it out, but you cannot take it.......I have already told you before......Debate with me with respect, and I will give you in return the same respect...........I'll debate with you all day long...."Just keep the dung words out of the topics.....As you can see....I do have a problem with you using those words in the fashion that you use it.............So, if you wish to keep things from getting out of hand.....tone it down a little!........................benny

That great and terrible day of the Lord!

You say I twist scripture to make it what I what. But indeed it is the opposite that I do. I take the words "Christ the first first and those whom belong to CHrist at His second coming(no s). THat means HE comes once more after his ressurection. To twist this would be to not come away with what it says, but something different(like you). You add that there is a 2nd and 3rd coming once to resurrect the dead and those alive, and then seven or so years later comes back and resurrects those that converted during the tribulation. WHere in any version of any bible does it say that.WHERE . I But Rev. 20 say HE John the man the Jesus revealed this to says" he saw those that did not take the mark of the beast and did not worship his image and were beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus, and I saw them come to live and reign with Christ 1000 years, this is the first resurrection blessed and holy are those that take part in the First Resurrection, for the second death has no power over them." If there is a resurrection before this one then John and Jesus lied when they said this was the first resurrection. Huh! That is what the bible says, to get another resurrection before this one would be to twist scripture, and even add. No my brother For all the great research I suggest do as you did in the beginning and read it and take it for what it is. THis way you don't get off track with messages that aren't there. If the rapture happened as you were typing then it would come as a thief in the night to you and you were promised better than that. Matthew clears it up in 24 when he describes the great tribulation and the the gathering of his elect, which just happens to match up with what Rev. 20 says about the trib. first then were get caught up so he can pour out his wrath.

On another note, you are right if I stated that all die I wrong mistaken, I to agree people will make it through the wrath, my point was driving on the point that people over all could not survive 7 or 31/2 years with the earth in those conditions, absolutely no water, and much more. But yes It does indeed say the nations will still have people in them. Even those that chose no side, as hard as it would be not to see what going down.

I posted a long reply that closed all arguments and it was on here for a day or so and no one be prove it wrong. Now its gone and it looks like I never posted. I would like to know why my post is gone.WHY

TO go back I said something along the lines as this.

I did not twist scriture to get what I got. I twist scripture would be to come away with something different than what the scriture says. "First Christ the first fruits, then those that belong to Christ at HIs second coming(note coming is singular, not plural). To twist the words would be to get something different as you yourself do. You say THat first Christ, then he returns to resurrect the dead and change those alive, then seven years or so later to resurrect the dead and those alive that lived through the trib. To get this out of what the scripture above say you must twist and even add to. No where in the bible and pllllleeaase show me if there is, does it ever say first Christ, then the dead and alive, then he leaves and comes again to get those that converted during the trib. These are lies because there is no scripture anywher that agrees to this. One must take scripture and twist and add to it to get these circumstances. REv. 20 and matt. 24 and many more concur on the fact that the great trib. happens then he sends his angels to gather the elect from the four corners. Man if you get more than that you HAVe to be adding. What is made simple you tryin make complex. And you use the thief in the night scripture. If while you were typing to me you were ratured, then THAT would be like a thief in the night and you were promised better than that. The only way for him to not come as a thief is to see the signs presented in the bible as in Matt.24 First Great Tribulation, then the gathering of his elect. And WHERE in the bible does it say that the Thief in the night scripture is aimed at those left behind .NAME ONE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS THIS SCRIPTURE IS AIMED AT ANYONE BEING LEFT BEHIND. There aren't any. The bible NEVER TALKS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION THEN THE TRIB. THEN ANOTHER RESURRECTION. So me the words left behind, or 3 resurrections or Jesus coming 3 times. NEVER IS IT. 2 times and 2 times only does the bible say HE comes. Once as a servant, and will return AT HIS SECOND COMING as a king. WHERE ARE YOU Scriptures my brother. THis scripture is talking about the unsaved. They will be given in marriage and continue life, just like the sinners of Noahs day. BUt the righteous will no that His day is near because all that is going down in the world will make it unmistakable to those with ears to hear and eyes to see.
I again I will again for you Excubitor I agree. I was mistaken in my typing. You are correct. THere will be those whom live through the wrath. But My focus was to prove the point that no one could survive on the earth in the conditions the wrath induces, especially for 7 or 31/2 years. No water and much more worse. BUt I agree there will be people still in the nations. Most definately. I twist it not, I read it and listen to what it says. And it says he's coming one more time. Not 2 more the 2nd and 3rd 7 or so years apart.

Seven Reasons
Why the Rapture Cannot Come
After the Tribulation
by Allen Beechick


The best thing my mother did for me, as a boy, was teach me Bible verses. But she also tried to get me to eat peas. I hated peas. Still do. My mother often said, "Try these, Allen. These peas are different." But somehow they never were.

Well, now that I'm an adult, I get to say, "These arguments are different." Instead of proving that the rapture comes before the tribulation, these arguments prove that the rapture cannot come after the tribulation. Instead of going in the front door, I'm coming through the back door.

Try these arguments. They're different.

1. The known day and the unknown day cannot be the same day.
"But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36). "In such an hour as you think not the Son of man comes" (Matthew 24:44).

In contrast to the unknown day, we also read about a known day. The 1260 days (Revelation 12:6) coincides with the 42 months (Revelation 13:5) or three and one-half years (Revelation 12:14). Unlike schemes of today that pretend to predict the time of the trumpet sound, this future timetable has a clear starting point, a clear duration, and a clear ending point. It begins at the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24:15–16), and it ends at the return of Christ (Revelation 19:20).

The known day and the unknown day must be different days. The rapture cannot occur on the known day.

Some try to dull the sharp point of the known day by saying the time is shortened (Matthew 24:22, Mark 13:20). In other words, the 1260 days will turn out to be less than 1260 days. But the "shortened days" has at least two other interpretations that do not contradict other Scriptures. Why pick the one interpretation that contradicts several other Scripture passages? No, the 1260 days will turn out to be 1260 days, exactly as prophesied.

You may ask, doesn't a close look at the context reveal that the unknown day appears in a context after the tribulation? Doesn't Matthew 24:29 say, "after the tribulation"? Yes, you are right. But a closer look at the context reveals a double reference. And this double reference reinforces the idea of two different days.

2. At the end of the age the unbelievers are taken first.
"In the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares.... the harvest is the end of the world.... As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.... So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just." (selections from Matthew 13)

Separate the wheat from the tares? No. Separate the tares from the wheat? Yes. The order of gatherings at this time is opposite to the rapture.

3. Those taken on that day end up as corpses for vultures to feed on.
"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And He said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together" (Luke 17:34–37).

"Eagles" is better translated "vultures." "Body" means "corpse" according to the parallel passage Matthew 24:28. Those taken on that day end up as corpses for vultures to feed on. This cannot be the rapture.

You may answer that the birds of prey gather around those left rather than around those taken. Consider two points. First, Revelation 19:17 shows that the birds of prey gather to a certain spot rather than being scattered to find whoever is left. Jesus' answer here in Luke 17 also speaks of such a gathering.

Second, when the disciples asked "Where?" it naturally implies "Where are they taken?" We already know where they are left. That's obvious. We know where the bed is, where the mill is, where the field is. That's where they are left. So the disciples wanted to know where they are taken. The only time the other meaning makes sense is when you ask, "Where did I leave my glasses?" But in this context where people are snatched away from various places, the natural question is "Where are they taken?"

It is those taken who end up as corpses for vultures to feed on. This is the opposite of the rapture.

4. If all unbelievers are destroyed, then who will populate the millennium?
"(Noah) entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. ... the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:27–30).

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity&quo