I'm not necessarily challenging anyone...but I was reading 'something' the other day - I can't tell you what it was - I can't remember. And to be truthful - I'm not even sure if I was 'awake' when I had this thought.....the thought being....maybe the 2nd witness is the Apostle John.

Trying to discuss this with my husband this morning - trying because he was barely awake....my reasoning - or some of it is as follows:

From what I recall - and I've not read the bible widely so forgive me if I've skewed things - it isn't deliberate John was the longest and oldest surviving Apostle. He was the most Beloved Apostle. My friend said he died on Patmos....but I didn't know that there was a 'record' of his death. Maybe he was taken up along the lines of Elijah.

Moses doesn't seem to have been a prophet along the lines of Elijah - John, on the other hand, prophesied through his Revelation....very similar to Elijah and the OT prophets who prophesied the end times.

and more importantly Jesus said when Peter asked of Jesus what about him ( which later on it becomes clear that it is John because he says "This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down" - "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" Then apparently the rumour spread among the disciples that that particular disciple wouldn't die....

In what reading I have done of Moses - such things were not said to him by God. Moses was - or seemed to be more of an intecessor - if I have the word right. Telling what Jehovah said - begging on behalf of Israel for clemency etc etc. He told what God would do right now - or SOON - if the Israelites didn't pick up their act.....and I guess it was pretty much 'at the time'. If the Israelites didn't obey - they were punished then and there.

John not only writes of the teachings and doings of Jesus, but he was given the Revelation.

This has probably been covered before - but i did a search and couldn't find anything. What scriptures suggest that Moses is the second witness?

GTG - have to find something for an elderly friend who's getting married in a month!

hey mad,

most people think that the two are either enoch and elijah because they never died and some say moses and elijah because elijah never died and he and moses were seen with Jesus on the mountain of transfiguration in the gospels...hope that helps

Yes the case for Moses as duncrewnoah stated I believe in Matt 17 and the Mount of Transfiguration. Both were present there, and the presence of the glorfied Christ. You had the Law represented (the old covenant)/ the Prophets/Grace (the new covenant) Another scripture that might allude to Moses being one of the witnesses is Rev. 11:6


Revelation 11:6

6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The case is that Elijah was the prophet to shut up the Heavens that it did not rain.(I Kings chapters 17 & 19 and James 5:17) and Moses was the one who was involved in the waters turning to blood and the plagues. (Exodus chapter 7-12)



Your Friend in Christ,
Val
Messiahiscoming

Thanks for that - I couldn't remember the other 'candidate'. I shall have a look at Enoch later.

The other thought i had about John - as a potential for a witness - is he would represent the new covenant.....and also as a witness - as in - he personally witnessed the ministry of Jesus.

It's interesting. When reading the Bible - John captured me. When I read Ellen Gunderson-Traylor's novel John, son of Thunder - yes it's a novel, but it too captured me. I hadn't been thinking about John at all when this thought about the witnesses occurred to me.

The passage from Revelation certainly seems to indicate Moses as being one of them.....and I think it's a given that Elijah is the other. Interesting.

The other thing about the witnesses is - isn't one of the miracles that they perform in Jerusalem to do with stopping the rain and something to do with doing something to the water?? So Revelation could be referring to that .

I guess - as hubby said - there's only one way we'll find out.

That's an interesting thought. Most of the books I've read lately on the book of Revelation mention Moses and Elijah, and you're the first person who has mentioned John. You bring up some good points about him having witnessed Jesus' ministry and being referred to as the Beloved. Most sources justify Moses and Elijah based on Elijah being prophesied to return and his having brought down fire from Heaven and Moses and the plagues of Egypt, and those things being very much like the things that will happen during the trumpets and bowl judgments. But those men got their power and authority from God, who could cause those things to come through any two men he chose for that particular mission. I don't think it's really wise for us to say it WILL be this man and that man, because we really don't know. I think John the Beloved would have been honored to serve his Lord that way and definitely willing, but like your dear hubby says, there's only one way we'll find out!

I still reckon he's a good candidate - but I was talking to a chap from my house church about it...and I will admit I"ve not done this yet - but he mentioned something about either Hebrews 12 - the cloud of witnessess - I'll look it up now - I scarcely have time to breathe some days....found it - it mention's Moses in verse 21 - but it refers to 'the sight being so terrifying to Moses that he said "I am trembling with fear"' - ummm...verse 18 YOu have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; darkness, gloom and storm; to a trumpet blast, or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal touches the mountain, it mush be stoned" (that's verses 18-20)

I was also reminded that WE say - assume - whatever that it will be the LITERAL Moses and the LITERAL Elijah being the witnesses...........but remember that Jesus mentioned that John the Baptist was as - or like Elijah....please don't make me look it up right now - I've gotta go get a kiddie out of bed before he spits the googoo - and I"m typing as fast as I can - so those 'people' running around the world at the moment calling themselves one of the 2 witnesses (Elijah the TIshbite) - well - WE can't say they're not.....only God can say that....because the 2 witnesses will have the authority of God - and to begin with - people are not going to believe them even if they're some folk like James BRown and Freddy Mercury - or 2 humble modern Hebrews who are Messainic Jews.

gtg'


bbs

MM.

Just caught this thread. You know, if those people have to run around and announce that they're one of the "two witnesses,"...well, they're probably not. I think it's going to be blatantly obvious.

Of course there is this possibility that the Rev. 7 group and the Rev. 14 group of 144s are different groups and that the two witnesses are actually a corporate body prophesying all over the world. Man, that'd have to be a drag for those "of" the world, huh?

In Christ,

Mike

I read some interesting books last year called the Christ Clone Trilogy by James BeauSeigneur, which give an Alternative event sequence to all the Left Behind /Hal Lindsey Theories of Eschatology. One of the things he wrote about was that Elijah was actually an Orthodox Rabbi from Israel. He had been converted when the Holy Spirit gave him a Vision of Christ and revealed the meanings of the Passover Meal and then the "MANTEL" of Elijah was placed on Him, so he operated in the spirit of Elijah. John the Beloved Disciple and Revelator was the Second Witness. In Fact, John had NEVER DIED, and had been Witness to the whole History of the Church and will be a Witness to the Things at the End. I recommend this Trilogy even if you might not agree with all the ideas. This author has an view on things that I have never thought about!

PJ

Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

An interesting note:....One day the Lord came to Moses and basicly said...."Moses you are going to die on your 120th birthday.....Keep in mind though..Moses was in great health.....The reason that Moses died at the age of 120 years old was because the 120 years represented 120 earth jubalees........120 earth jubalees = 6000 years that has been appointed to mankind of gentile rule....Moses was a representitive of all mankind.........I believe that the two wittnesses are Enoch and Elijah....These two have never died...But as the scriptures state: It is appointed to man to die once then the judgement.........Enoch a gentile....was and is a representitve of the gentile race........Elijah a Jew...Was and is a representive of the Jewish race....These are the two wittnesses that will give thier testimony to those living on earth during Daniels 70th week.....................................................benny

Ok I can see that you need to read your Bible, it will plainly tell you that Moses died and was buried. OK? And then Jesus said that "If you will receive it, this John (the Baptist) is Elijah that was to come" paraphrased.

So that ends the Moses and Elijah theory however if you do not read the scriptures you will not learn this.

And the most amazing book is Zechariah where you will learn that the two witnesses of Yahweh in history are the two olive trees which is Israel and the Church. These are the two witnesses of Yahweh in history but please go on and believe whatever you want. You will anyways. From Daniel's time to now is 3 1/2 days in the 7 day week since Adam. So there are your 3 1/2 days. And this is the end of the matter.

Dan

I've heard of the two witnesses being interpreted as two "groups" of people rather than two individuals. It is a very interesting concept and may have some merit. The problem I have with such an interpretation is the portion of scripture that has the Antichrist kill these people and put their bodies on display in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 days. The World is so happy this has been done that they declare a holiday and exchange gifts, (because the plagues and judgments these witnesses have sent have been stopped.) How does one allegorize this event?

PJ

PJ,
That's also my problem with making the two into groups. It's hard to read that as anything but two prophets. Also, I'm looking for a scriptural precedent for God bringing back somebody from the past to live again on earth for an extended period of time to fulfill an earthly ministry. Any thoughts on that part of the popular interpretations?
Debbie