I need to vent on this subject a minute. The signs and wonders are like manna..good for the day like manna was...

but the bread of life is eternal. Eat it.

God reminds us they are going to pass away.

Also... he doesn't take back the gifts...so you can be in the flesh and still be operating in the gifts...It's not a plumb line to identify your standing with God.

And what about seeing in part...I've been thinking about that and wondering if God holds more purpose to that than first meets the eye.

Initially l thought it was only because we had a body and couldn't see in the Spirit realm...While that is true l also remind myself that God can do anything he wants with us.... so why does he see fit to only show us part?

He showed the Old Testament prophets more than us...
Of course we don't need as much because of their work but l think the seeing in part forces us into humility and broken subjection towards the Lord. At least it should.

And if he says he never knew some of those operating with signs and wonders where did they get the gifts? Can he give a gift and still not know you?

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


I find this very interesting: "Also... he doesn't take back the gifts...so you can be in the flesh and still be operating in the gifts...It's not a plumb line to identify your standing with God. "


I dont know the scripture about "seeing in part" it makes me think about "we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

My personal opinion:

we can study all we want - but it only leads to knowing in part - until that which is perfect comes.

same with prophecy.

and yet - what do we want to study... the Word... we want to get face to face with Him and do it in His Word.

and what is prophecy -but to prophesy of Jesus (cuz He isn't with us)

when that which is perfect is come... we wont need these things that are "in part"

"For now we (everybody) see through a glass, darkly;
but then (now I'm in the Word) face to face: now I know in part;
but then (that which is perfect is come) shall I know even as also I am known."




"And if he says he never knew some of those operating with signs and wonders where did they get the gifts?"

you know, I think of Balaam (Num 22)... what a guy. Who was he!? He didn't come out of Egypt with the children of Israel...cuz the enemies of Israel wanted him to come and curse Israel... yet the Lord spoke with Balaam... and we are warned of Balaam... at the end of the NT: 2 Peter 2:15 warns of the way of Balaam, Jude 1:11 warns of the error of Balaam, and the Lord warns us in Rev 2:14 of the doctrine of Balaam.


I'm also thinking about the Lord Lord... verse... Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

prophesied... cast out devils... done many wonderful works

For the Lord to say these people are working iniquity... it says to me that they are not doing the will of the Father.

False prophets who thought they were true.

People who use the name of the Lord to cast out devils... probably doing it without the Lord's permission... therefore they aren't doing the will of the Father... therefore they would be working iniquity.

"and in thy name done many wonderful works" but works wont save anyone...

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

satan is still the god of this world... his world system will be over thrown... he was mighty and power and blessed, he was the sum of everything... Ez 28... Isa 14.

Jesus never objected that satan didn't have the power and control (authority) to offer Him (Jesus) the kingdoms of this world... at the end of that 40 fast in the wilderness.

God is in control... what an Esther theme... what a Shekel post (the king of Persia...releasing the prisoners)

since everything exists...and Jesus holds everything in place (Colossians) sure...all gifts are ultimately from Him... but signs and wonders can be performed from either side...

and gifts of the Spirit are obviously the good side.


I suppose I'm just venting some thoughts too....
Dani

Elisha could see in the Spirit realm and he was flesh. Christ said "If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." Mark wrote "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So you see operating in the power of the Spirit is a plumb line for saints. Saints are only those who want to be perfect.

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

This is a great misunderstanding of this day. That Christ was referring to treasure in heaven after you die and go to heaven. Christ was referring to the heaven that is here and the treasure that sits on the throne. His Spirit and His Power. It is hard to understand scripture if the foundation for understanding has been corupted by the devil.

Hi both......

Then both...

1) Dani.........

2) Godsloft........

Both right...So how can we reconcile this?

How about this...

Fruit...Is that how we test someone? Not just the gifts but the fruits?

When we are saved and are baptised the Holy Spirit comes upon us...(Like it did with Jesus)
When we are obedient and persistent in the faith the Spirit does what? Manna feast through us..
You know what l mean..manifest through us.

I've never been able to reconcile this because l can't pinpoint the day or hour the Spirit indwelt me? I've felt that he was there at 8 years old when l had a powerful experience with the Lord..

But even to speak in tongues was in my mind not the main coarse...It was anticlimactic. It was sort of like an accoutrement...To me tongues didn't matter because l knew many people speaking in tongues before l did and they weren't one stitch better than myself...In some cases worse (in the flesh)

So what's really important is the fruit.

So my question is boiling down to this...Can people begin to walk in the Spirit and still turn back to the ways of the flesh? As much as l hate to say it...Yes...And still God doesn't take back the gifts...This is scary to me. Think of the power experienced by the Israelites coming out of Egypt...It's just never enough is it? And at the foot of the mountain when they heard Gods voice first hand so there could never be any doubt of who they were.

So are we going to continue in the word..doing good and occupying till he comes? Not being satisfied with a Spiritual display of his majesty through us...because it is in fact, only through us...It isn't actually us.

It must be a stumbling block for many...

They experience the power of his manifest presence and they think they've made it. Now they can sit back on their loins and be crowned ... ...

Do you agree?

"how can we reconcile this?"

I reconcile it by knowing that one must do the will of the Father... just cuz you can cast out, or speak a foreign language, or prophesy doesn't mean you are doing the Father's will.

I do agree with your statement... that I can't use my gifts to know whether or not I am in good standing with God. "Also... he doesn't take back the gifts...so you can be in the flesh and still be operating in the gifts...It's not a plumb line to identify your standing with God." I cannot think of any scripture that says that when I realize the gifts given me... that I shall know I've made it to good standing with God. Fear and trembling... seeking perfection isn't perfection... there is only one way to know of your standing with God and that is to believe in Jesus- the sin that keeps us from heaven is not believing (cuz there is no forgiveness of any sin if you don't believe in Jesus) So, my plumb line... is on my knees in prayer, and in my car in prayer, and in my kitchen in prayer and in the store in prayer... constant contact with God... and my plumb line is that sword (eph 6) in hand... seeking Him face to face.

again, back to signs and wonders and "giftings" ...Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Both sides can use such great signs... but if we go with such things... we can easily be deceived... so if you see someone handling a snake... or drinking poision and living... that isn't an experience to place your faith... cuz there are false Christs, false prophets... they shall deceive many... to the point that even the very elect, if it were possible, would be deceived. IT's very convincing. I'm not saying the signs do not follow the believers... I'm just saying this is satans world system... he has power here.

We have to be grounded in the Word (and the Word was made flesh). Seeing signs and wonders... sure it may follow true believers...but for the false shall also show such signs and will be misleading the lambs. The Lord got tired of the Jews always seeking a sign...

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"Fruit...Is that how we test someone? Not just the gifts but the fruits?"

I have always thought we are to be fruit inspectors... I'm not judging the fruit... just taking an inspection of it.

Gifts are a really neat thing... in honesty, I'm asking, does anyone know a verse that says that we are to judge gifts? We can know things, come to conclusions... but actually judge... to judge a gift...?


"Can people begin to walk in the Spirit and still turn back to the ways of the flesh? As much as l hate to say it...Yes...And still God doesn't take back the gifts...This is scary to me."

yes, absolutely people can turn...

I'm not sure that God needs to take back the gifts... I think that abuse of a gift will bring its own punishment. (and I don't have scripture to back that up, other than the "Lord, Lord..."). and I think that a person who has the gift of healing, though she came out of harlot-dom, and may retreat to harlot-dom... may still use that gift for good, even in her sin... but I really think that many who turn back to the flesh, will just ignore their gift(s) and the gifts will go dormant.


------
"So are we going to continue in the word..doing good and occupying till he comes? Not being satisfied with a Spiritual display of his majesty through us...because it is in fact, only through us...It isn't actually us.

It must be a stumbling block for many...

They experience the power of his manifest presence and they think they've made it. Now they can sit back on their loins and be crowned ... ...

Do you agree?"

Oi !!!! now that is something... self judgement... and thinking we've made it... whew! Yes, definetly a stumbling block... when one ends up kicking back and resting on laurels, waiting to be crowned. There is much work to be done (even if it doesn't look like what everyone else is doing - I'm thinking missionary work here)... there is much fasting, much praying, much in the way of quiet example, and the also loud example, there is standing up for truth, there is helping a child with a skinned knee...

Yes, we must continue in the Word, doing good, occupying til He comes, watching and praying.

----

"manifest" ... "Manna feast" I'm smiling!

---

They experience the power of his manifest presence

Perhaps, I'd do well to know how you are defining "His manifest presence"...?

I've been in a fast, that He has called me to do, but where He told me that He would be pulling His presence back.

I prefer His presence.


But for me there is a difference between the Holy Spirit that indwells and speaks so quietly to my spirit, where I hear those gentle whispers ...

and His manifest presence.


I know it's all the Spirit. I can tell, when the Spirit is speaking for the Father, and other times for the Son, and then the whispers that come from the Spirit... The Father always speaks to me in prayer. The Son, like a friend to me... talking to me at any time, any where. The Holy Spirit, whispering to me, helping me in discernment, prompting me.

(and then there is that off-voice that never gets tired from attempting to be a stumbling block)



blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

If you hear ... then do what you hear.... in obediance.... then you're manifesting what you heard.
Thus...his manifest presence.

Thanks for the conversation!

Miks, remember the magician's of Egypt also operated in signs and wonders. That is not always a gift, although the Lord give that as a gift to some. Some operate where they should not. Faith can be used incorrectly as well as we know when looking at the dark side.


Jesus never knew them, because He foreknew the elect. He is without time as we know, so He already knew all the elect before time began for them. So some come and claim that position and Jesus said "Sorry, I do not know you" He also said that some will try and enter another way, but that He (the Word) is the ONLY way.

You are correct: its not a plumb line .

There is an order in which God wants us to enter: Salvation...baptism (saying I have died to self by faith) then into the wilderness to be tested...then overcoming...then getting seated in the heavenlies.
Some want to sidestep the testing and overcoming, but they ultimately will not be allowed to enter in.
C

What exactly is fruit? Is it what is raised up from the other person, whether it is confusion and anger or joy and praise? Is that how you determine of what spirit is speaking, what it brings out of the person hearing that spirit? What the spirit causes? Or no?

I was talking of this fruit:

Galations 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.



as opposed to some of the listed gifts:

1 Corinthians 12:
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: