SPOKEN WORD MANIFEST WITH ‘PIC’

On March 23rd, I posted this message, not knowing four days later, it would PHYSICALLY MANIFEST ITSELF in the ‘very place’ the post ‘exposed the hypocrisy’ of his ‘vision’ that will soon become the ‘Abomination of Desolation’! (Daniel 11:39)
http://earthboppin.net/talkshop/theend/messages/21444.html

The Presidents’ vision of a Roadmap to Peace is without a doubt the ‘Controversy of Zion’, as a matter of fact there was a major conference in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia today.

Could the following link be a CONFIRMATION for those with ‘eyes to see’, that it is time to run with vision because the ‘tarrying days’ are over? (Habakkuk 2:2-3)
http://earthboppin.net/talkshop/theend/messages/21671.html

Giving Him the glory an Ezekiel 33:6 watching one REPENT the Kingdom of God is at hand, make your election SURE

Thanks Gavrial



I believe we are on the same page here...the meeting in Berlin was another confirmation that the purpose of all of this is to destroy Israel...the unification of (Nazi?) Germany and destruction of Israel...God will intervene and it will not be pretty

QUOTE

Gavrial, what does it mean "to tarry?" What is the context of Habakkuk 2? Is it not the coming judgment of God upon Judah? It did not tarry! Habakkuk is quoted by the writer of Hebrews:

"For yet a LITTLE WHILE; and He who is coming WILL COME and will NOT tarry." Tarrying loses its entire meaning if we are still looking for His coming! After nearly two thousands years "the tarrying days are over?" Why do we not take this word at its face value? Why would the writer use such a time reference if the event he spoke of was not to happen for a very, very, very long time? That's tarrying!

Preterist

Why do you continue to harass people on this board preterist? Nobody believes your filthy garbage.



God's word itself says God is not slow as men count slowness



2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Repent and stop spreading your filthy heretical dog vomit!

QUOTE(mmddll @ Mar 31 2007, 12:51 AM) [snapback]107579[/snapback]

Why do you continue to harass people on this board preterist? Nobody believes your filthy garbage.



God's word itself says God is not slow as men count slowness



2 Peter 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.



Repent and stop spreading your filthy heretical dog vomit!

Is this how Christians speak to one another, mmddll? I will NOT stop "harrassing" people as long as they continue to pervert God's Word and make Christ's Church a mockery before an unbelieving world.

What is the CONTEXT of 2 Peter 3:9? Why do futurists think that they can throw 2 Peter around and negate every clear time reference in the Bible? Peter reminds his original reads that THEY are in the last days. These are the same last days that the writer of Hebrews spoke of--"in THESE last days." We are NOT in the last days! Those were the last days of that age that was "becoming obsolete and growing old . . . ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13).

Peter mentions that he is writing to them a second time. What did he write to them the first time? "But the end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Pet. 4:7). He warned them of a "fiery trial" which was to try THEM (1 Pet. 4:12). Peter also told them in his first letter that they were in the "LAST TIMES" (1 Pet. 1:20). He told them that THEY were THEN "kept by the power of God through faith for salvation READY TO BE REVEALED in the LAST TIME" (remember--THEY were in the last time!)--1 Pet 1:5). It is in the last days in which THEY were that THOSE scoffers would come (2 Pet. 3:3). In was in THAT day that scoffers were saying "Where is the promise of his coming?" (3:4). Why would they ask that except Peter and other Christians were proclaiming His soon coming to THEM? Just because some of them were growing impatient (understandable considering the "fiery trials" they were experiencing), does not mean the Lord's return was thousands of year in the future! Jesus said--"Behold, I am coming QUICKLY!"

I am harrassing people? I am speaking "filthy garbage?" Is this some of my filthy garbage, mmddll:

"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE things take place" (Mat. 24:34)
"The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)
"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8)
"There are some of those standing here who shall not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in
His kingdom" (Mat. 16:28)
"From now on, YOU (Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin) shall see
the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64)
"The kingdom of God is AT HAND" ((Mark 1:15).
"Who warned you to flee from the wrath ABOUT TO COME" (Lk. 3:7).
"THESE are the days of vengeance, in order that ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN may be fulfilled"
(Lk. 21:22)
"The Lord is NEAR" (Phil. 4:5)
"For yet a LITTLE WHILE, He who is coming will come, and will NOT DELAY" (Heb. 10:37)
"The time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:3)
"I am coming QUICKLY" (Rev. 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20)
"the things which must SHORTLY take place (1:1; 22:6)

This is "filthy garbage?" This is GOD'S WORD, ddmmll?

I will NOT stop proclaiming this "filthy garbage." I will NOT stop defending the honor of God's holy Word against those who twist it and pervert it to their own ends. I am sorry you feel harrassed, but why do you think your view is the only one allowed here?

"Let God be true, but every man a liar!" (Rom. 3:4)

Preterist

Yes. All of the 99-plus percentage of us who do not buy into the false theory that the Lord Jesus has already returned eons ago when it's so obvious that He has not yet returned. Preterism sounds more like a cult than anything else.

Agreed, Angela



Preterist, I did not call God's Word filthy garbage...I called your Jehovah's Wtness style heretical rhetoric filthy garbage and dog vomit..A half truth is a whole lie, and to pollute God's Word with the twisting of scripture is no more God's Word than Satan's first lie to Eve



.it's the closest thing to atheism there is...even the demons believe and tremble with fear...but the preterists and atheists don't. "Christ is a foregone conclusion and there's nothing to be mindful of 'cause it's all in the past...let's eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die...the covenant with Death and Hell", not mindful that Christ will resurrect us ALL at the LAST DAY, some to everlasting life and some to damnation.and eternal torment. Read the last chapter of Daniel...hasn't happened yet..check your calendar and your watch.

The Heresy of hyper and partial preterism



for eyes that see and ears that hear

QUOTE(mmddll @ Mar 31 2007, 10:35 PM) [snapback]107689[/snapback]

Agreed, Angela



Preterist, I did not call God's Word filthy garbage...I called your Jehovah's Wtness style heretical rhetoric filthy garbage and dog vomit..A half truth is a whole lie, and to pollute God's Word with the twisting of scripture is no more God's Word than Satan's first lie to Eve



.it's the closest thing to atheism there is...even the demons believe and tremble with fear...but the preterists and atheists don't. "Christ is a foregone conclusion and there's nothing to be mindful of 'cause it's all in the past...let's eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die...the covenant with Death and Hell", not mindful that Christ will resurrect us ALL at the LAST DAY, some to everlasting life and some to damnation.and eternal torment. Read the last chapter of Daniel...hasn't happened yet..check your calendar and your watch.

Dear mmddll and Angela: Do neither of you realize that I quote actual Scriptures to you? I wanted you to deal with what I posted. How do I twist Scriptures when I simply post Scriptures? Those who attack me and other preterists consitently do that. They ignore the verses that are given and they answer our questions with questions! Now let me make some accusations of my own about twisting.

Jesus said "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things (Matt. 24:34) take place." I
take this at face value, but futurists make THIS mean THAT. Is that not twisting the Scriptures?

John was shown in the Revelation the "things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 1:1) and that
the "time is AT HAND" (1:3). Again, I take the time references at face value. But futurists ignore these
time references or give them strange meanings. Is that not twisting the Scriptures?

Jesus said "Behold, I am coming QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20). Nothing difficult here if taken at its face
value. But futurists give the word an unusual meaning of "suddenly." Is that not twisting the Scriptures?

Jesus said "When YOU (His disciples standing right there with Him) see the abomination of desolation spoken
of by Daniel the prophet . . . ." Preterists take that statement at face value. But futurists ignore the
impact of those words on their original recipients and make everything about us. Is that not twisting the
Scriptures?

James said "The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8). The preterist crime? We take it at its
face value. But futurists make the expression "at hand" mean something contrary to its normal,
everyday, usual, and common usage. Is that not twisting the Scriptures?

Peter said "The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7). Preterists take that at its face value. But
again, futurists manipulate this clear time reference to make it mean what they need it to mean. Is that
not twisting the Scriptures?

Instead of calling me names, why don't you deal with the actual verses I have provided?

I was once a pre-tribulation, pre-millennial dispensationalist like I suspect you are (for twenty years). When I was confronted with the clear time references presented in God's Word, I had to face them and deal with them.

I understand your anger at having your views challenged, but do you have to resort to calling people (fellow believers) such hurtful names? I am not here to cause trouble or to be mean-spirited. All I have asked is that people consider what I have posted. When I post the actual words of Scripture and take them at their face value, why is that twisting Scripture? Why does that make me a cultist?

One error I have noticed with futurism (and I employed it myself at one time) is that they attempt to shed light on the NT by using the OT. But it is the NT that reveals the types and shadows of the Old! In other words, when Jesus tells His disciples that THEY would personally in their lifetime see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel, this revelation sheds light on the timing of Daniel's prophecy! When we see that God through the Roman armies destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in AD 70 in fulfillment of Jesus' pronouncement of woes on that generation of Jews whom He declared guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth (Mat. 23), the student of God's word gets a clearer understanding of Ezekiel's prophecy (esp. 40-48)! Furthermore, when one understands the nature of apocalyptic language and how the prophets used it to express God's judgment upon people and nations, he can more easily understand passages such as Matthew 24:29-30!

Another thing I have asked is that people always consider the CONTEXT of passages they quote. It is so easy to rip a verse from here and there without taking the time necessary to understand its significance in the historical setting in which it was written. Why was it written? To whom was it written? What did it mean to the people who first read it or heard it? What was going on in their lives at the time? How can we expect to make proper applications if we do not first make hermeneutically sound interpretations?

Would either of you give me exact instances where I have twisted the Scriptures?

In Christ, Preterist

Jesus described a certain generation and then He said "This generation will certainly not pass until all these things take place."



Well what were some of those things? Wars, Rumors of Wars, Israel Becoming a nation again, earthquakes, famines, etc...



All that is STILL going on.



So when Jesus said THIS Generation, He was talking about the Generation that He was describing.



If you think Jesus has already come and set up His kingdom on Earth...Where is it? When and Where was the Big Blowout?



Why is their still evil in the world?

QUOTE(Josh @ Apr 9 2007, 12:30 AM) [snapback]108740[/snapback]

Jesus described a certain generation and then He said "This generation will certainly not pass until all these things take place."



Well what were some of those things? Wars, Rumors of Wars, Israel Becoming a nation again, earthquakes, famines, etc...



All that is STILL going on.



So when Jesus said THIS Generation, He was talking about the Generation that He was describing.



If you think Jesus has already come and set up His kingdom on Earth...Where is it? When and Where was the Big Blowout?



Why is their still evil in the world?

Jesus did NOT say that Israel would become a nation again! Jesus had in mind particular wars and particular people who would be killed and hated. He had in mind particular earthquakes and famines and pestilences. And again, the expression "THIS generation" ALWAYS means those contemporaneous with the speaker and writer--ALWAYS. Look at its other uses! Yes, He was describing a certain generation--it was the "this generation" of His day! How much clearer could He have said it?

What "big blowout?" Where is a "big blowout" predicted?

Why must there be no evil in the world? When did Jesus say there would be no more evil in the world?

Did not Jesus clearly say "My kingdom is NOT of this world?" Where did He say He would set up His kingdom on EARTH?

Preterist

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here Jesus said there will be no more evil in the world:



Hold on church, just a little while yet.
Praise God.
C

Rev.20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev.21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you believe the rapture has already happened, sorry as you can see in Rev20, the devil will be loose on earth 1000 years. Hmm, Jesus died 2000 years ago. Where is the New Heaven and New earth?

I do believe this says:Rev.21:8
That there will be no evil in this world, no death, no diseases.
This clearly states a new earth where Jesus will reside with His chosen people.

I agree you can't take a passage of the Bible to fit what you perceive to be the truth..you have to take passages before and after to understand the content, sometimes you even have to take the chapter before.
But God's word is the LIVING WORD...you can take it to the bank as is is the truth, we are also told to take nothing from or add to His Word.

Lord, I ask that your Holy Spirit will open eyes and ears to Your truth.

Go with God, today in all your journeys.

QUOTE(goodshepard @ Apr 9 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]108854[/snapback]

Rev.20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev.21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you believe the rapture has already happened, sorry as you can see in Rev20, the devil will be loose on earth 1000 years. Hmm, Jesus died 2000 years ago. Where is the New Heaven and New earth?

I do believe this says:Rev.21:8
That there will be no evil in this world, no death, no diseases.
This clearly states a new earth where Jesus will reside with His chosen people.

I agree you can't take a passage of the Bible to fit what you perceive to be the truth..you have to take passages before and after to understand the content, sometimes you even have to take the chapter before.
But God's word is the LIVING WORD...you can take it to the bank as is is the truth, we are also told to take nothing from or add to His Word.

Lord, I ask that your Holy Spirit will open eyes and ears to Your truth.

Go with God, today in all your journeys.

Blessings to you also, goodshepherd!

Yes, sometimes you have to take the chapter before--and after! Consider, then, Revelation chapter 22 where John is for the second time told: "'These words are faithful and true.' And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 22:6)
Then Jesus says "Behold, I am coming QUICKLY" (vss. 7, 12, 20). John fell down "to worship before the feet of he angel who showed [him] these things." (22:8). The angel told him not to do that because he was John's fellow servant. Then the angel said to John: "Do NOT seal the words of the prophecy of THIS book, for the TIME IS AT HAND" (vss 9 and 10)!

Jesus at that time when John wrote was coming QUICKLY and at that time His reward was in His hand! (vs. 12).

As for the rapture--what is it? Was it not something that Paul expected to happen in his lifetime and in the lifetimes of those to whom he wrote? To whom did he write the words of 1 Corinthians 15? To whom did he write the words of 2 Thessalonians 4? What is the CONTEXT? What is the AUDIENCE RELEVANCE? I would like to see just one interpreter on these forums make these issues their first order of business when they quote a passage. Sadly, such an approach is nearly nonexistent! Everything is made to be about us!

1 Corinthians 15: VERSE 1--"Paul, . . . to the church of God which is at Corinth." Paul's letter is clearly first of all addressed to those saints in the first-century city of Corinth. Paul instructs them concerning their spiritual gifts; he warns them against getting caught up in identifying themselves with certain individuals (e.g. Apollos, Cephas). He encourages them to "glory in the Lord" (1:31). He describes them as fools for Christ's sake" (4:10). He warns them against the defilement of immorality (chap 5) and against suing thier brethren before unbelievers (chap 6). He outlines the basic principles of marriage to them and implores them to keep their marriage vows (chap 7). They are to flee from idolatry (chap 10); they are to conduct themselves properly at the Lord's Supper (chap 11). He instructs them concerning the diversity of gifts in the body of Christ (chap 12) and presents the greatest gift of all--love (chap 13). He goes on to explain the purpose of tongues and gives the prescribed order for meetings. In chapter 15 he deals with the resurrection--the resurrection of which Christ is the firstfruits!

Still speaking to those first-century Corinthians, Paul says: "Behold, I tell YOU a mystery. WE (I, Paul, and YOU Corinthians) shall not all sleep, but WE shall be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (see Matthew 24 and Revelation 11). For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and WE shall be changed. For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. . . . then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'" Can you not sense Paul's excitement and anticipation of something that was near to him--something that made all of their suffering worthwhile?

These is the same thing Paul tells the Thessalonians--"WE (I, Paul, and you, my fellow first-century saints) who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God (Matthew 24; Revelation 11). And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then WE (I, Paul, and you, my fellow first-century saints) who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, COMFORT one another with THESE words" (1 Thes. 4:15f).

This was their "hope of salvation" (5:8). This was the salvation that Paul described as being nearer than when they first believed! (Romans 13:11). All those who "slept" with Abraham in Hades waited for those things they had only seen afar off--the city which had a foundation whose builder and maker was God (Heb. 11). These are those who were asleep who were to precede those who were yet alive in the body. Death was swallowed up in victory; Hades was done away with. Since that day, all who die in Christ Jesus go immediately into His presence! Our salvation is complete. If Jesus has not yet come, we still all go to Hades to wait for Him to complete our salvation. But we HAVE OBTAINED complete salvation in Christ Jesus at His coming--a complete salvation that was first experienced by those first-century pre-AD 70 saints. We now say with them--"whether we wake or sleep we should live together with Him." "To live is Christ; to die is gain." If we "die" and believe in Him, yet we live; if we live and believe in Him, we NEVER die! Death has no more hold on us. We simply shed this earthen vessel which returns to the dust and continue on wholly in our incorruptible, immortal bodies in His presence! That is the blessed hope!

Christ has come; our salvation is complete; we do now and will forevermore live in His presence!

Preterist

A day is as a thousand years..a thousand years as a day unto the Lord.

But you did not answer my questions..I see this is a trend...you ask, we respond, ask you something..you do not respond to the question.

So again
Where is the New Heaven and Earth..

Where is eternal life...there will be NO MORE death. people die every second, do you have pain?/do you cry?/ These things are passed away.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

People always will take the passages they perceive is a valid point to explain there belief..You have to use the complete Living Words of God.
When you take the Bible and read it from front to back..you will see, that time as we see it does not always fit into God's time line.

Noah and the ark.
It took him 120 years to build...he told people to repent..they thought that he was crazy..he told of the judgment to come..they thought since it did not happen in a instant he was wrong..Ah..they all died in the flood.

Or you could just be seeking answers and want other people to do the homework so you don't have to take the time to seek the Truth from God.

Go to God. Seek Him for your answers, He will show you the Truth, it is found in the Living Words, and from Him directly.

QUOTE(goodshepard @ Apr 9 2007, 07:33 PM) [snapback]108869[/snapback]

A day is as a thousand years..a thousand years as a day unto the Lord.

But you did not answer my questions..I see this is a trend...you ask, we respond, ask you something..you do not respond to the question.

So again
Where is the New Heaven and Earth..

Where is eternal life...there will be NO MORE death. people die every second, do you have pain?/do you cry?/ These things are passed away.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

People always will take the passages they perceive is a valid point to explain there belief..You have to use the complete Living Words of God.
When you take the Bible and read it from front to back..you will see, that time as we see it does not always fit into God's time line.

Noah and the ark.
It took him 120 years to build...he told people to repent..they thought that he was crazy..he told of the judgment to come..they thought since it did not happen in a instant he was wrong..Ah..they all died in the flood.

Or you could just be seeking answers and want other people to do the homework so you don't have to take the time to seek the Truth from God.

Go to God. Seek Him for your answers, He will show you the Truth, it is found in the Living Words, and from Him directly.

It is NOT a trend with me not to answer you. I find that laughable. I repeatedly give you verses and you ignore them--preferring to answer my verses with other verses. Such as Isaiah 65! What about James 5:8; 1 Peter 4:7; Matthew 26:64; Matthew 16:28, etc. If I fail to answer you, say so. Sometimes I miss things.

By the way, I am working on my response to your use of Isaiah 65. I like to frame my responses carefully and thoughtfully.

I spend MUCH time in the Word studying it in its CONTEXT. That is hard work. That is why I am taking my time with Isaiah 65--again. I want to look at the chapter before and the chapter afterwards--again--lest I missed something! I could easily just rip it out of its context as most do since that's the easy way out. But I will not. If you have truly followed my posts you would not accuse me of such a ridiculous thing!

Furthermore, if you had really followed my posts, you would know that time and time again I have given my explanation for the new heavens and new earth. How many times do I have to say it? If I don't say it over and over and over, I am accused of not responding!

I have often responded to the absurd appeal to 2 Peter 3 by those who would ignore or redefine clear time reference words. Do you not read the words--A day is AS a thousand years with the Lord. It does NOT say a day IS a thousand years. Do you not see that this verse is merely explaining how God is not bound by time? But that is not to say that we are not--that He does not communicate with us in the words of language which He Himself has given to us so that we might understand Him.

Why don't you continue in 2 Peter 3--What about a thousand years being a day? Perhaps your millennium will really not last a thousand years. Perhaps it will be only one day in duration--after all a thousand years is as a day with the Lord. Right?

James 5:8--The coming of the Lord is AT HAND. Does the AT HAND fall under your rules of 2 Peter 3?
1 Peter 4:7--The end of ALL things is AT HAND. Does the AT HAND fall under your rules of 2 Peter 3?
Revelation 22:7, 12, 20--Behold, I am coming QUICKLY. Does the QUICKLY fall under your rules of
2 Peter 3:8?

Here's my point. You do not like what these verses are clearly saying, therefore, you attempt to explain them away by making up some ridiculous claim that God does not care about time. Soon could be later! Near could mean far! Quickly could mean whenever! What kind of exegesis is that? Soon means soon. Shortly means shortly. Nears means near. And 2 Peter 3 means that God does what He wants when He wants; but when He says, through His inspired writers, that something is to happen soon, or something is at hand, or that He is coming quickly, He means just that!

I have also many times explain the new heavens and earth. I guess you missed that too. The heavens and earth are not physical. If you study OT prophetic language you will see that they often represent nations and peoples. The heavens and earth that passed away involve the Old Covenant system. They are that which were becoming obsolete and vanishing away--THEN (see Heb. 8). In the new heavens and new earth, God's kingdom, which is NOT of this world, there is no crying and no death! I have explained this before. I did not ignore you and anyone. Will you please answer my questions?

Since you have not given me the context of Isaiah 65, I will get back to you after I restudy it. I will do the homework, as I characteristically do!

Preterist

Isa.65
1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.
2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Vs. 65:1-2 Verse 1 refers to the Gentiles' seeking God, whereas verse 2 reiterates God's willingness (spread out my hands) to receive Israel (Rom. 10:20-21).

3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;
4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,
7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Vs. 65:3-7 The rebellious people of Israel (cf. v. 2) are indicted for idol worship (vv. 3, 7), consulting with the dead (v. 4), and eating forbidden swine's flesh (v. 4; cf. Lev. 11:7).

8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Vs. 65:8-9 Like the few good grapes in a cluster, so there is a godly remnant in Israel.

10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

Vs. 65:10 the valley of Achor. See note on Hos. 2:15.

11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.
13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Vs. 65:11 troop . . . number. Lit., Gad (the Aramean god of luck) and Meni (god of destiny).

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Vs. 65:17-25 A description of the millennial kingdom, which is preliminary to the new heavens and a new earth (v. 17). Characteristics include Jerusalem's being a joy instead of a burden (v. 18; cf. Zech. 12:2-3), longevity (v. 20; notice that sin will be punished in the Millennium), peace and security (vv. 21-23), and removing of the animosity in nature (v. 25; cf. 11:7-9).

Sugar..I have not followed your post all the way ..sorry about that...I have placed Isa 65 above with the explanation of said verses out of my bible..hope that helps you and others..I just want you to be aware that if you are wrong or I am wrong...one of us is going to spend eternity in Hell when the Lord brings us before the Judgment Seat.

Go with God.

QUOTE(goodshepard @ Apr 9 2007, 10:40 PM) [snapback]108894[/snapback]

[/b]

goodshepherd: I am sorry that you believe that either one of us is in danger of hell fire. Are you not saved by the blood of Christ? Have you not been born again from above on the basis of that shed blood on your behalf? I have. If you have also, then neither of us is in any danger of spending eternity in Hell. Since, however, you believe that the judgment seat is still before us, then I am assuming that it is I who you believe is in danger of spending eternity in Hell. You are entitled to your opinion. I know whom I have believed--I am secure in Him. I trust you are as well even though we disagree on issues not essential to personal salvation!

Preterist

James 5:
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

5:8 The coming of the Lord: Few doctrines concerning Jesus Christ are taught in James. His vicarious death and resurrection are omitted, yet Christ's return is cited to encourage patient endurance.

1 Peter 4:
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

Refers me back to Romans 13:
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed:The coming of Christ to deliver us from this sinful world grows nearer each day. The night is the time while Christ is out of the world, and the world has been delivered into the control of the prince of the power of air [ Eph.2:2]. The day is a reference to the time when Christ will return and establish His reign of righteousness

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

That explains itself.

Matt.16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Vs. 16:28 see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. This was fulfilled when the disciples witnessed the Transfiguration (17:1-8), which was, in miniature, a preview of the kingdom, with the Lord appearing in a state of glory (Dan. 7:9-14).

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Vs. 3:10 the day of the Lord. It will begin unexpectedly at the beginning of the Tribulation (as a thief, 1 Thess. 5:2) and end at the conclusion of the Millennium with the destruction of the heavens and earth (Rev. 21:1). See note on 1 Thess. 5:2.

Go with God..Hopes this helps.
Hope I did not miss any

Sorry about that Peterist...I hope neither one of us are there..you are correct..sorry again. I was not trying to say you were not saved..I am a Born-again child of Christ..yes I do believe the Judgment Seat is yet to come..I agree to disagree with you..my sincere apologies again..

QUOTE(goodshepard @ Apr 9 2007, 11:16 PM) [snapback]108898[/snapback]

[/b]

goodshepard: I appreciate your attempt at explaining the above verses, but I do not find them to be honest with the text. I am not accusing you of being intentionally dishonest; I am simply questioning whether you have been influenced by a particular belief rather than the clear words of Scripture. I was born again over thirty years ago. The majority of that time I spent as a pre-trib, pre-mil dispensationalist. That was what I had been taught and that was what I "saw" when I read the Word of God. To further embed these beliefs, I attended and graduated from a dispensational seminary. Because I approached the Scriptures with this mindset, I sought ways to circumvent those pesky time reference words, believing deep within my heart of hearts that they simply could not say what they seemed to say.

After graduating from seminary, I found that I had more time to devote to my own personal studies which apart from the Word of God included the reading of nondispensational authors--something I had not had the time nor the encouragement to do while in school. I began to see in the dispensational view a dishonesty with the time indicators and a propensity to neglect the complete significance of the context of passages and their audience relevance. I determined to lay aside all that I had been taught and start with a clean slate in my Bible search.

I discovered that words mean things. I reread passages such as Matthew 24 and found that Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. He gave no indication of any dual fulfillment so popular with dispensational thinkers. I realized that He was simply speaking to His disciples right there with Him about things that were to happen to them personally. They would be killed; they would be hated; they would hear of wars and rumors of wars; they themselves would see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet; they were to recognize His coming as easily as they recognized the coming of summer by the budding of the trees; they were to watch and be ready, etc. They were those of the "this generation" in which all the things of which Jesus spoke would take place.

Furthermore, I began to see a pattern concerning time reference words. When I read them in noneschatological passages, I understood them in their normal, everyday, common, usual and ordinary usage (as all dispensationalists do); but when I saw them in eschatological passages, I redefined them or completely watered down their temporal significance. I was not being honest with God's Word!

James 5:8 says exactly what James intended it to say--The Lord's coming was at hand or near at the time James wrote these words of encouragement. The words clearly say what they say.

1 Peter 4:7 says exactly what Peter intended it to say--The end of all things was at hand or near at the time Peter wrote. I can redefine "at hand" or I can accept it as written and attempt to understand the meaning of "all things." What did Peter mean? Whatever he meant, it was "at hand." He begins his letter with the encouraging words that their salvation was ready to be revealed "in the last time" (1:5). He identifies that time frame in verse 20 when he refers to their time as "these last times." He exhorts his readers to live godly before the world so that others would observe THEIR good works and glorify God "in the day of visitation" (2:11, 12). In other words, they and their observers would themselves be around for the day of visitation! Those of that generation saw that day approaching (Heb. 10:25). Peter also indicates that they themselves would be there with gladness and exceeding joy "when His glory is revealed" (4:13).

So what is the end of all things? Did not Jesus' disciples ask Him about the end of the age in Matthew 24? Does not the writer of Hebrews speak of that which was then in that day becoming obsolete and ready to vanish away? (Heb. 8). Were they all not THEN living at "the end of ages" (Heb. 9:26)? When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he clearly states that the "end of the ages" had come upon him and his fellow first-century saints (1 Cor. 10:11). THEY were living in the end of the ages. It was the coming end of the Old Covenant system with all of its types and shadows. It was those "elements" (2 Peter 3) of that system which was then already becoming obsolete and ready to vanish away that was to be "burned up with fervent heat" at Christ's coming. The Church, the true Israel of God, those of the New Covenant in His blood, those who were Jews inwardly and circumcised in their hearts (Jeremiah 31; Romans 2:29) would emerge as the true people of God forever. This is what Abraham and those of faith longed for (Heb. 11)--not an earthly land but a "homeland," a "heavenly country" (Heb. 11). Both the OT saints and the NT saints saw themselves as "strangers and sojourners and pilgrims" in this world (1 Peter 2:11; Heb. 11:13).

That is what Paul meant when he said that their salvation was nearer than when they first believed (Romans 13:11). The night was WELL SPENT! This coincides with his teaching in 2 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. The salvation that was nearer than when they first believed was complete resurrection to newness of life and victory over death. No longer would they die and wait in Hades for this complete salvation like those who "slept" with their fathers. The dead in Christ (Abraham and all those OT saints who waited having only seen the promises afar off (Heb. 11) were those who "rose" first, then Paul and all of his fellow first-century saints met them and the Lord in the "air." Corruption put on incorruption; mortality put on immortality; death was swallowed up in victory. Those who die in Christ yet live with Him; those who live in Christ never die--they have passed from death unto life! Believers who leave their earthen vessels no longer go to "sleep" as OT saints did--they shed their earthen vessels and enjoy complete fellowship with Christ. To live is Christ; to die is gain! This is the salvation that was nearer for Paul and his fellow saints.

Another verse that became more clear when taken at face value was Matthew 26:64. I do not believe that you really addressed it. You simply said that it "explains itself." With that I wholeheartedly agree. Jesus clearly told Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin that they themselves would personally see His coming "in the clouds" (i.e. in judgment). What did you mean that it "explains itself?" Does it not clearly say what it says? How else can it be understood except to do injustice to the words and be dishonest with the text?

Matthew 16:28 was always explained to me in the way in which you explained it. But with open and unbiased eyes, I have come to see that it is not logical to apply this verse to the Transfiguration which occurred only days later! I would think, wouldn't you, that most if not all of those standing there would not die within a matter of days! This I now believe is a desperate attempt to downplay the significance of Jesus' words. Clearly He told those standing there with Him, that SOME of them wouldn't die before He came. Referring this to the Transfiguration gives the awkward and untenable meaning that most of those standing there were to die within a few days!

2 Peter 3:10 has nothing to do with atoms and the chemical make up of the physical earth. The word for "elements" here is stoicheia. In every instance it refers to principles, teachings, or precepts of men. It never refers to the physical aspects of the earth! The "heavens and earth" that were to be dissolved are the elements of the Old Covenant system which was then becoming obsolete and ready to vanish away (Heb. 8). The new heavens and earth involve that "heavenly country" whose builder and maker is God (Heb. 8) in which righteousness dwells--God's kingdom which is not of this world and which was THEN very much AT HAND. Christ at His coming destroyed the "elements" of that old, inadequate, shadowy system forever.

As for 1 Thessalonians 5:1, the context clearly indicates a first-century fulfillment. The day of the Lord was to come as a thief--but not to THEM. Paul says, "BUT YOU, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake YOU as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. Therefore let US not sleep, as others do, but let US watch and be sober . . . COMFORT one another with these words." Paul further states that they themselves would be alive at Christ's coming--THEIR "whole spirit, soul and body" was expected to be "blameless at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Do you not sense the deep and real expectancy on the part of those first-century, pre-AD 70 saints? Do you not see the significance to THEM in the time reference words used by the inspired writers of the NT? They said "at hand" because they meant "at hand" and intended for it to be taken at its face value. They wrote "near" because they meant "near." Jesus said "Behold, I am coming QUICKLY" because He said what He meant and meant what He said. John was shown those things which were in his day to take place SHORTLY! Did the angel mislead him? Was the time near (Rev. 1:3) or wasn't it? If it was not "near," then why say that it was? Why did Jesus say "this generation" instead of "that generation?" Why did He use an expression that always means those contemporaneous to the speaker or writer? Why? Why did Jesus tell His disciples that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Mat. 24:15)? Why did He tell THEM to recognize the time of His coming just as easily as they recognized the signs of summer by the budding of the trees? Why? Why all of this temporal language by the inspired writers if they are merely predicting things that have nothing to do with them but with a generation far removed from them?

These are serious matters. There are those today who mock our Lord and His Church. These atheists, agnostics and skeptics recognize that Jesus and the NT writers were speaking of His return in THAT day. They point at the Apostles and call them false teachers! They point at the Church and call it a false religion! They point at our Lord and Savior and call Him a liar! What is our response? Postponement theories? Dual fulfillments? That does not satisfy. As someone once said--"the only solution to nonoccurrence is OCCURRENCE!

Jesus came as He promised. It is past time for a new reformation. But we will not post 95 theses on a door. We will post the hundreds of time references found in the Scriptures that have been twisted, redefined or simply ignored in order to promote an erroneous concept of eschatology which has blinded the masses and made a mockery of God's Word. The Church victorious has become a Church on the run expecting doom and gloom around every corner and waiting for a blessed hope that has already come!

"Let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4)

Preterist
ps. I am still working on Isaiah 65, so please be patient.

Peterist..I will agree to disagree...As we are all on different levels in our walk with the Lord..I may not have the same revelation as you or someone else. Not a problem..Interesting reading..but I just don't agree, I do not debate the words of God..I will post them..I will say what I think the revelation He has given me..Because the Bible is God's Living Word...but my revelation can and will be different from someone else, unless God has given them the same revelation.
Go with God as your guide and you can't go wrong....

Also yes words do mean something..but don't think God's words are complicated..Read it for what He says..they are no in between lines..

It is so simple to understand..The Spirit of the Lord will guide you to all truth...BTW...the analyzes of the version came out of my study KJV Bible..sometimes they help in understanding scripture, but again they are someone else's interpretation of Scripture.

QUOTE(goodshepard @ Apr 10 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]108986[/snapback]

Peterist..I will agree to disagree...As we are all on different levels in our walk with the Lord..I may not have the same revelation as you or someone else. Not a problem..Interesting reading..but I just don't agree, I do not debate the words of God..I will post them..I will say what I think the revelation He has given me..Because the Bible is God's Living Word...but my revelation can and will be different from someone else, unless God has given them the same revelation.
Go with God as your guide and you can't go wrong....

Also yes words do mean something..but don't think God's words are complicated..Read it for what He says..they are no in between lines..

It is so simple to understand..The Spirit of the Lord will guide you to all truth...BTW...the analyzes of the version came out of my study KJV Bible..sometimes they help in understanding scripture, but again they are someone else's interpretation of Scripture.

Yes, it is simple.

"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place."
"Behold, I am coming QUICKLY."
"The end of all things is AT HAND."
"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND."
"There are some of those standing here who shall not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His Kingdom."
"Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin) will see the Son of Man . . . COMING on the clouds of heaven."
"When YOU (Jesus' disciples right there with Him) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ."
"The Kingdom of heaven is AT HAND."

Yes, "read it for what He says . . . there are no in between lines."

Isaiah 65

In Isaiah 64, Isaiah describes God's anger in terms of symbolic upheavals in the mountains--

The mountains "shake" at His presence (vss. 1 and 3). Isaiah confesses the iniquities of the people and God's justification for His anger--"for we have sinned" (vs. 5). God is said to have "consumed" them because of their iniquities (vs.7). Clearly, "consumed" did not mean total destruction and annihilation. They were consumed in the sense that their holy cities (e.g. Zion) were a "wilderness" (vs. 10). Jerusalem was a "desolation," their "beautiful temple" was "burned up with fire"and all their "pleasant things" were "laid waste" (vss. 10, 11). They were judged. The context here is clearly of OT Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple during the captivity. God's response to Isaiah's pleas for mercy is found in chapter 65.

Inspite of God's stretching out His hands "all day long" to them, a rebellious people, they continually angered Him (vss. 2 and 3) with their abominations. Because of this, He turned to the Gentiles--"those who did not ask for" Him (vs. 1) and "those who did not seek" Him (vs. 1). Paul picks up this very theme in Romans 9:25 when he quotes Hosea 2:23--"I will call them My people, who were not My people." God would not withhold is judgment on those of the "old heavens and earth" for their iniquities (vs. 7). BUT He would not "destroy all"--there would be a remnant. The others He would "number for the sword" (vs. 12). They would "all bow down to the slaughter" (vs. 12).

The saved of Israel (true Israel according to faith), His "servants," His elect (vs. 9), would eat, drink, rejoice and sing for joy of heart (vss. 13 and 14). But the unbelieving of Israel would be hungry, thirsty, ashamed, and cry out for sorrow of heart (vss. 13 and 14). There is a clear contrast between the elect of God or the servants of God and those who continually commit abominations.

God says to those who continually anger Him because of their great iniquities:

"You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord God will slay you, and call His Servants by ANOTHER NAME" (vs. 15)

In this context of destroying one people and creating another come verses 17 and following. The new heavens and new earth, then, suggests the passing or replacing of that which is old. Clearly, the old are those of the old order who were disbelieving and rebellious (the old heavens and earth) and the new heavens and earth describe that which is made up of His elect, His true servants. This has nothing to do with the physical heavens and earth!

The following verses are also not to be taken literally. They are a picture of the perfection of the "new heavens and earth" in which righteousness dwells. Death will have lost its sting. Both the child and the accursed sinner are said to live to "one hundred years." There is here a picture of perfect peace and fulfillment in the presence of God. These verses are without a doubt not without difficulties, but I do not think they can be pressed to indicate a literal one-thousand year reign of Christ on the earth.

Thanks for your patience!

Preterist

QUOTE(goodshepard @ Apr 10 2007, 11:11 PM) [snapback]108986[/snapback]

Peterist..I will agree to disagree...As we are all on different levels in our walk with the Lord..I may not have the same revelation as you or someone else. Not a problem..Interesting reading..but I just don't agree, I do not debate the words of God..I will post them..I will say what I think the revelation He has given me..Because the Bible is God's Living Word...but my revelation can and will be different from someone else, unless God has given them the same revelation.
Go with God as your guide and you can't go wrong....

Also yes words do mean something..but don't think God's words are complicated..Read it for what He says..they are no in between lines..

It is so simple to understand..The Spirit of the Lord will guide you to all truth...BTW...the analyzes of the version came out of my study KJV Bible..sometimes they help in understanding scripture, but again they are someone else's interpretation of Scripture.

Yes, it is simple.

"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place."
"Behold, I am coming QUICKLY."
"The end of all things is AT HAND."
"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND."
"There are some of those standing here who shall not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His Kingdom."
"Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin) will see the Son of Man . . . COMING on the clouds of heaven."
"When YOU (Jesus' disciples right there with Him) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ."
"The Kingdom of heaven is AT HAND."

Yes, "read it for what He says . . . there are no in between lines."

Isaiah 65

In Isaiah 64, Isaiah describes God's anger in terms of symbolic upheavals in the mountains--

The mountains "shake" at His presence (vss. 1 and 3). Isaiah confesses the iniquities of the people and God's justification for His anger--"for we have sinned" (vs. 5). God is said to have "consumed" them because of their iniquities (vs.7). Clearly, "consumed" did not mean total destruction and annihilation. They were consumed in the sense that their holy cities (e.g. Zion) were a "wilderness" (vs. 10). Jerusalem was a "desolation," their "beautiful temple" was "burned up with fire"and all their "pleasant things" were "laid waste" (vss. 10, 11). They were judged. The context here is clearly of OT Jerusalem and Solomon's Temple during the captivity. God's response to Isaiah's pleas for mercy is found in chapter 65.

Inspite of God's stretching out His hands "all day long" to them, a rebellious people, they continually angered Him (vss. 2 and 3) with their abominations. Because of this, He turned to the Gentiles--"those who did not ask for" Him (vs. 1) and "those who did not seek" Him (vs. 1). Paul picks up this very theme in Romans 9:25 when he quotes Hosea 2:23--"I will call them My people, who were not My people." God would not withhold is judgment on those of the "old heavens and earth" for their iniquities (vs. 7). BUT He would not "destroy all"--there would be a remnant. The others He would "number for the sword" (vs. 12). They would "all bow down to the slaughter" (vs. 12).

The saved of Israel (true Israel according to faith), His "servants," His elect (vs. 9), would eat, drink, rejoice and sing for joy of heart (vss. 13 and 14). But the unbelieving of Israel would be hungry, thirsty, ashamed, and cry out for sorrow of heart (vss. 13 and 14). There is a clear contrast between the elect of God or the servants of God and those who continually commit abominations.

God says to those who continually anger Him because of their great iniquities:

"You shall leave your name as a curse to My chosen; For the Lord God will slay you, and call His Servants by ANOTHER NAME" (vs. 15)

In this context of destroying one people and creating another come verses 17 and following. The new heavens and new earth, then, suggests the passing or replacing of that which is old. Clearly, the old are those of the old order who were disbelieving and rebellious (the old heavens and earth) and the new heavens and earth describe that which is made up of His elect, His true servants. This has nothing to do with the physical heavens and earth!

The following verses are also not to be taken literally. They are a picture of the perfection of the "new heavens and earth" in which righteousness dwells. Death will have lost its sting. Both the child and the accursed sinner are said to live to "one hundred years." There is here a picture of perfect peace and fulfillment in the presence of God. These verses are without a doubt not without difficulties, but I do not think they can be pressed to indicate a literal one-thousand year reign of Christ on the earth.

Thanks for your patience!

Preterist

Its not clear at all

And why has this nothing to do with the physical heavens and earth ? Is there another heaven and earth that I should know about?

I must have missed Jesus on the clouds.



C

QUOTE(C @ Apr 12 2007, 11:23 AM) [snapback]109178[/snapback]

[/b]

Yes, there is a heaven and earth you should know about, and, yes, you have missed Jesus on the clouds!

Much misunderstanding has come about by the assumption that heaven and earth are always physical. Let's consider Matthew 5:17-18. It is clear here that heaven and earth and the passing of the law are closely connected. If heaven and earth have not already passed away, as many today contend, then the law is also still very much with us! It cannot pass away til heaven and earth pass away! Furthermore, in verse 17 Jesus clearly states that He came to fulfill the "Law and the Prophets." Is that not the whole of the OT? Did Jesus accomplish that purpose? Consider also Luke 24:44 where Jesus says: "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that ALL things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." Is this not the entirety of the OT to include the law? Did Jesus accomplish His word? Does this not also tie in with Peter's statement that "the end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7)?

If Jesus did not fulfill all these things, then He lied and we are still under the Law! But if He did fulfill all these things, then heaven and earth have already passed away and the Law has been fulfilled--including all of the prophecies concerning Him! This would include Isaiah 65:17--

"For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered or come to mind."

This is all in the context of God’s punishment of Israel for her iniquities and His calling out for Himself a people [servants] who would inherit the blessings:

“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me; I was found by those who did not seek Me. I said ‘Here I am, here I am.’ to a nation that was not called by My name.” This is indicative of the time when the Gentiles would be brought into the people of God and those who were rebellious would suffer for their iniquities. These would be the “descendants from Jacob;” and “an heir” from Judah–God’s elect! Verses 13-15 deal with the true servants of God as opposed to the “rebellious people” (verse 2). In this context, God says that He will create “new heavens and a new earth” and a new “Jerusalem.” This would be a perfect “heavens and earth” (verse 19ff). It would include all those who are circumcised in their hearts (both Jew and Gentile)--the true Israel of God!

This figurative language for heaven and earth is carried into Isaiah 66–“heaven is My throne, and earth is My footstool.” This is not a literal heaven and earth but a place in which God dwells.

If physical heavens and earth have not already passed away (which they must, if Jesus kept His Word), then it is not physical heavens and earth which are in view here.

What was it that was then, in the first century and at the time the author of Hebrews wrote, passing away? Hebrews 8 (which contains a portion of Jeremiah 31 and its prediction of the New Covenant) says that Jesus “has made the first [covenant] obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old [in THAT day] is ready to vanish away” (verse 13).

Much of the confusion that exists in the Church today and the foundation for many erroneous teachings stem from wrongly taking that which is figurative and spiritual as literal and physical!

I recommend that you take a concordance and research all uses of the terms “heaven” and “earth” and notice the number of times (and they are substantial) these expressions do not convey a physical aspect but rather a figurative one!

Again, if “heaven and earth” have not passed away, then the demands of the Law have not passed away either and Jesus did not fulfill what He promised He would fulfill! (Mat. 5:17,18). Are we perhaps misunderstanding the nature of the “heavens and the earth?”

The same is true of the use of the term “clouds.” Was Jesus to come on literal clouds? If so, then Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin saw Him come that way–“Hereafter, YOU [Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of God and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven” (Matthew 26:64). All the tribes of the land would see His “cloud” coming in great power and glory (Matthew 24:30). When? In the THIS generation of Matthew 24:34. In Matthew 16 Jesus says that some of those standing there with Him would see His coming in this same glory! (Verses 27 and 28). Have we again missed something because we insist on making something literal which was intended to be figurative? I think we have! And many have been led astray because of it. Jesus came in "clouds" of judgment upon those who were guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23)--in AD 70!

The problem for the western mind is that we far too often do not understand and do not seek to understand the figurative and apocalyptic language of the OT prophets. But doing so is imperative to a proper understanding!

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