In Matthew 24;15-21.....The abomination of desolation is spoken of......One of the statements by the Lord Jesus Christ directed towards the Disciples.....The states that when they see the a.o.d. come to pass, that they are to flee to the mountains. To not go back into their house to get anything, and those in the field to not go back and get thier clothes....in other words, they must get out of there fast!......But what stands out the most is "Pray that your flight may not be on the Sabbath"............................The question here is, "Does that statement apply to the Bride of Jesus Christ......Are we under the mosiac law?......And if "WE" are not under the Mosiac Law, and the it is not a sin for the Christians to travel on the Sabbath.....Then explain why that this would not be a sin for a christian........................................................benny

It was for the Jews...Christ taught under the law....grace was AFTER the cross...Jews are still under the law and Gentiles never have been...Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]: Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

That's a very good answer Fervent...........Anyone eles want to get in on this?........................................benny...P. S. Does anyone know what I am leading too?.....Fervent...there is one thing that I would like to add to this............."we' at this moment are living under the period of Grace,...Which means at this moment Jew and gentile are the same in Christ Jesus....The Lord is no respecter of person....Both Jew and gentile are grated into the same tree.

Any Jew or any man anywhere who has not accepted Christ as redeemer is under the law, either the law of Moses or they are a law unto themselves...Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Dear Fervent,....Good point! ....................benny

I do believe most folks attribute Christ's teaching as coming from a standpoint of grace when He was Himself under law, being born a Jew...He simply taught the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law and in so doing He confounded many religious leaders who were operating at a superficial level of "show and tell" and who consequently completely misunderstood the inner workings of the heart of man ...Christ explained that to so much as think an evil thing was to be guilty of that sin as if it had been outwardly done and thereby explained the impossiblility of salvation by works....by obedience to the law....but He also showed them why He must die that they might live...for He fulfilled the law and made an end of it....to bring in a new and better covenant....a covenant which has opened up both God Himself, and the eternal realm of salvation for evermore to all who will believe....

You tell us benny if pretrib has all the answers. The New Testament scriptures are given to Christians not Jews. Why would this passage in the New Testament not therefore apply to Christians.
Jews do not read the New Testament.
Where does it say that it would be a sin to flee on the Sabbath? It is not even a sin for a Jew to flee from danger on the sabbath.
It does not say it is a sin to flee on the sabbath, it says "pray that you do not have to flee on a Sabbath day".
The reason for this is obvious. The Jews shut the gate of the city on the Sabbath and curtail travel on that day making the exit from the city very much more conspicuous and difficult.

Benny. Is this supposed to somehow prove pretrib rapture? Because if you think it does I fail to see how. If it tries to do so by insisting that this instruction is for Jews and not for Christians then my previous point entirely disproves it. JEWS do NOT read the New Testament. In fact they deny it as lies.

My point is this:...Prior to the Cruxifiction of our Lord on the cross of calvary, the Mosiac law was in effect.....The Lord Jesus was the perfect ultimate sacrafice. The sacraficing of animals(sheep)....were shadow types....a finger pointing towards the Lord Jesus on the cross of Calvary....In a sense,....when the Lord Jesus died on the cross, it was almost in a sense as if time stopped pertaining to the jewish race. Thus, the 69th week of Daniel had come to pass, completing 483 years to the exact day that was prophesied........Then on the day of Penticost,the period of grace came into effect.The first 2000 years of time was without the law,the second period of time was with the law, and the third period of time, under the period of grace........When the 70th week of Daniel begins, The clock will begin to tick off the last 7 years to complete the 490 year decree, given by the Lord towards the jewish race.In Daniel 9;24....Gabriel, tells Daniel....Seventy weeks are determined for "your people".......Sometimes, just before that last week...... (7 years)begins, the Lord will come for His Bride, and when the last week begins, the Lord turns his attention towards the Jewish race. picking up where it left off prior to the period of grace, which the Mosiac Law was in effect, when the jews were at that time sacraficing lambs........The lord says to the jews that when they see the a.o.d. come to pass, ....in one of His statements, He says to them,...Pray that your flight be not on the Sabbath, which indicates that the jews were abiding by the Mosiac Law. Under the Mosiac Law the Jew are forebidded to travel a long distance.....This all indicates that the Bride of Jesus Christ were not on the earth, fore they are not under the Mosiac Law, but are under grace......When the rapture comes to pass, just shortly prior to Daniels 70th week,...the period of grace will be over.......................................benny

Well if that's the case the Lord was wasting his time speaking, because the Jews never listened to him and to this day detest the New Testament. Clearly therefore your understanding of Daniels 70th week is all up the creek without a paddle. Daniels 70th week prophecy was always directed to God's holy people which in the times before Christ were remnant Jews and who at the time of Christ believed him and followed him, and who taught followers of Christ to escape from Jerusalem in 70AD, and who teach us to this day the way which has come to be known as Christianity.

The Jews took no notice of Daniels prophecy of the 69 weeks which according to most pundits referred to Christ the Messiahs sacrifice, so what makes you think they will heed the 70th week prophecy?
Clearly therefore the prophecies of Christ are not for reprobate Jews of any century, but only for the followers of Christ who read his words and recognise his voice. Dispensationalism is a big bucket of steaming manure as it its bedfellow pretrib rapture.

As I said before and which you promptly and with typical intractable fashion ignored. The Bride of Christ is not under the mosaic law but nevertheless will still be impeded from escaping from Jerusalem if they are required to flee on the Sabbath. This is not because they feel that they need to keep the sabbath but because travel will be restricted by the Jewish authorities who ARE STILL under the mosaic law.

I would have better luck proving my stepmother is an alien than you have of proving that pretrib doctrine is true with this tricky little question.

Dear Excubitor,....The Lord does not make mistakes and His Word does not come back void.......there is a time when all of Israel will acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God...........Once again I tell you that the Lord will come for His Bride shortly prior to the beginning of Daniels 70th week.....the Jews are His people,....Even in Ezekial 38;14 the Lord acknowledges Israel as His people...14Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
This is an event that will come to pass just prior to Daniels 70th week......................................You have much to learn and understand in prophecy............................benny

I agree that there is a time when the Jews will acknowledge that Jesus is the son of God. BUT IT WILL NOT BE BEFORE the Great Tribulation. How do I know? Because during the Great Tribulation the people of that wicked city where Christ was crucified will persecute and slaughter the 2 witnesses and dance around their bodies which lie in the street, in just the same manner in which they taunted our Lord and crucified him all those years ago. This shows that nothing changes in their hearts from that first advent of our Lord even until the second.

The prophecies of natural Israels grafting back onto the vine ALL relate to AFTER the return of Christ when the two sticks of Israel and Judah are reunited as described in the millenial Ezekiel 37 passage.

I believe it is you who has much to learn and understand about prophecy. However it is not learning and understanding which is your problem. You read and read, cut and paste, ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth 2 Tim 3:7. This is because you have a hardened and intractable heart which is set upon a certain rapturous paradigm from which you will not budge no matter how numerous and compelling the arguments arrayed against you are.

Dear Excubitor,...It is obvious that you are desperate to twist scriptures to fit prophecy that you do not have a solid understanding of............The two wittnesses of are old testament prophets, whom I believe are enoch and eliahja....It is appointed for man to die once, then the judgement....But the Word of God does not contradict itself.....At the end of the two wittnesses prophecy, they will be slain, and then these two old testament prophets die the first death.By that time, anyone who was going to ask the Lord into their heart would have done so shortly before their death.Any Jew who had already asked the Lord into their heart was probally in that place of protection in the wilderness, which very well could be petra, there in Jordan......The two wittnesses are old testament prophets and not a part of the Bride. The place of protection in the wilderness will be a place of protection for Jews only.......................The Jews were scattered to the four corners of the earth, but today are returning little by little, but when they see what the Lord did for them in Ezekial 38....They will return enmass and desire to build their third temple.But the spiritual birth will not be complete until they realize that the anti-christ is not the Messiah at the A.O.D. event, and then realize that the One who they nailed to the Cross of calvary is thier Messiah,And many will repent...................................benny

You've completely missed the point Benny.
I was not trying to identify the two witnesses. I was pointing out that the Jews will not come to the faith en masse prior to or during the GT because they kill and rejoice at the death of the two witnesses at the end of the GT. Why do you start every post with the words"you are twisting scripture Excubitor" but without so much as an explanation as to how I have done so.

Therefore seeing the Jewish nation which killed and rejoiced over the bodies of the two witnesses is clearly not converted at the end of the GT it clearly follows that they must be converted. Please don't obfuscate the issue by rattling on about the identity of the two witnesses when this has absolutely no bearing on the issue which is being discussed.

There is a whole lot of baloney that dispensationalists bang on about. Jews have been coming to the faith since the first century. All of the apostles were Jews. The first Christian churches were jewish. Ever since that day Jews have converted. And what do we call these Jews? CHRISTIANS because they are followers of Jesus Christ. So if God is protecting anyone in the wilderness they are CHRISTIANS who are followers of Christ. Whether they are of Jewish stock or of gentile stock is entirely irrelevant. They are still Christians and part of the remnant of Israel and are grafted on the vine.

The Ezekiel 37 event and the grafting of the Jewish nation back onto the vine such that the entire nation is reconciled to God is a future event AFTER the return of Christ.

Dear Excubitor,...You quote=Therefore seeing the Jewish nation which killed and rejoiced over the bodies of the two witnesses is clearly not converted at the end of the GT it clearly follows that they must be converted..........Excubitor...In revelation 11;2...we read the following "But Leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they shall tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months"....The picture that I am getting here is that when Jerusalem is under the anti-christs controll, he had brought his gentile armies into Israel.......When the Jews flee at the A.O.D. they go to the wilderness.......From what I can see,it is possible that "All" the jews Fled....That is, those who were fortunate to escape....but this is speculation on my part....But we do know that satan hates jews and wish's to wipe them all out.Why are the Jews Fleeing in the first place? The answer, is because the anti-christ wants them dead,dead,dead I do not envision any Jews sticking around to get the mark so that they can buy, sell, and trade......In revelation 11;9-10 it reveals that all races,and "those who dwell on the earth" rejoice over the two wittnesses death......Once again I point out that Daniel 9;24 says the words "FOR YOUR PEOPLE".....In Matthew 24;3...The words "TELL US" when these things will be?...The Lord was making a statement directed towards the Jewish race......As the Lord was speaking to the Jewish disciples, He states in Matthew 24;15-16..."Therefore when "you see" the abomination of desolation 16....then those who are in "JUDEA" flee to the "mountains"(Probally Petra is the most suited Mountain)....70 weeks(490 years) were decreed upon the jewish race throughout all time. Only 69 weeks(483 years) have been fulfilled.....Awaiting the last week(7 years).....Once again,in Daniel 9;24 are the words "YOUR PEOPLE"....When the last week begins, The lord turns His attention back towards the Jewish race to complete the 490 year decree. Excubitor you say that, it will be christians who flee to the wilderness, that will be Jews....I agree with that statement,....But why Christian Jews Only?....why not Christians from all races to be protected from the anti-christ at the event of the abomination of desolation?....The Lord is no respector of persons..........It is clear that the Lord was speaking to the Jews only....in telling them to flee to the mountains........In the period of grace, the Lord is no respector of persons...."WE" are all...Jew and Gentile the same in Christ Jesus....The rapture will come to pass before Daniels 70th week begins.....The 24 elders reveal that they are not angels as you claim.......The evidence is very strong against your claim......If you and I, and millions were here to wittness the revealing of the anti-christ...would we not make a big deal about it?........Satan can't touch that! ......It would be chaos for him.....Doctors, lawyers, judges,bankers....all walks of life....When the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way(And it is He who holds back the full ultimate evil)...Then the Holy Spirit takes us with him....and then the anti-christ will be revealed to the world.........................................benny

Benny, Benny.
You are trying to hard. Christ was telling Christians to flee into the wilderness. Not just Christians of Jewish stock but of gentile stock as well. Wherever did I say that the warnings were for Jewish Christians only. As I said Christians read the new Testament.

Basically you are so confused that you are even contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say
"why not Christians from all races to be protected from the anti-christ at the event of the abomination of desolation?....The Lord is no respector of persons"
and then on the next you say "It is clear that the Lord was speaking to the Jews only....in telling them to flee to the mountains"
Can't you see that this is a contradiciton in the clanger category?

You have made an almost entirely absurd claim that when the AOD is set up the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem will flee into the mountains on account of prophecies by the Christian prophet written in the New Testament: Leaving the city deserted for the gentile armies to take over unopposed. The only reason a Jew would flee because of the AOD is if they were believers of the New Testament. AND THAT WOULD MAKE THEM CHRISTIANS would it not?

How can you say that the nation of Judah is reconciled to God if the antichrist rules the capital city of the nation and is massacring Christians and the two witnesses?

Judah will never be reconciled to God until he rules Jerusalem and every Jew is a Christian. How can God reconcile with a Jew who rejects Jesus. And if a Jew accept Jesus then HE IS A CHRISTIAN. At that time the Jewish nation of Israel will be a Christian nation. Not a nation of scattered people but a united and strong nation with an inheritance in the land and a king of the line of David ruling them in peace. That will not happen until AFTER Jesus overthrows the antichrist and rules the nation from his throne in Jerusalem.

And why would Jews who DO NOT READ the New Testament NOT take the Mark of the Beast having not received ANY warning of it? You have a lot of thinking to do Benny.
I am pleased though. At least you are putting some of your own thoughts together instead of simply cutting and pasting other web pages into the forum.

Excubitor EXCUBITOR....Your having a case of inference perception,Which reveals that you are not at all that keen. ......You quote="Basically you are so confused that you are even contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say
"why not Christians from all races to be protected from the anti-christ at the event of the abomination of desolation?....The Lord is no respector of persons"
and then on the next you say "It is clear that the Lord was speaking to the Jews only....in telling them to flee to the mountains"
Can't you see that this is a contradiciton in the clanger category?"
When I stated..."why not Christians from all races to be protected from the anti-christ at the event of the abomination of desolation?"....Take notice of the words.."from all races " Obviously every race on the earth would not be in Israel.In other words why only the Christians living in Israel and not those living in other parts of the world....I find that an interesting question. And again when I say..."It is clear that the Lord was speaking to the Jews only....in telling them to flee to the mountains"...In Daniel 9;24......Do you not remember Excubitor???....It says the words "YOUR PEOPLE"...And that is statement for Daniels people, and Daniels people are "JEWS....The former 69 weeks of Daniel was directed to the Jews, and the last week of Daniel is also directed to the jews, and when the last week has been completed, then the 490 year decree will have come to pass...........Then you quote=You have made an almost entirely absurd claim that when the AOD is set up the entire Jewish population of Jerusalem will flee into the mountains on account of prophecies by the Christian prophet written in the New Testament: Leaving the city deserted for the gentile armies to take over unopposed. The only reason a Jew would flee because of the AOD is if they were believers of the New Testament. AND THAT WOULD MAKE THEM CHRISTIANS would it not?
Excubitor,excubitor It seems that you have not prayed for discernment,But I will pray in your behalf.....In Matthew 24;16 it says..."then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains"....What it does NOT say is "then let some of those who are in Judea.......I think that it is possible that all the Jews will flee. The Word of God does say the words..."And all of Israel shall be saved.....So in other words, what I am stating is not really all that far fetched In revelation 11;2....The Gentiles tread the holy city underfoot for 42 months......Satan influenced Adolf Hitler to try to wipeout every jew on the face of the earth so that the prophecies of God could not come to pass......Well satan will try it again at the A.O.D......Through the A.C. ....Up to this point your post trib rapture view is very weak,You avoid a lot of common sense,sorry to say............You make statements like;...."Jews do not read the new testament. I hope that this does not become a shock to you but there are many Messianic jews around and they do read the NT.....................................benny

I agree that all Israel will be saved. Not before the return of Christ though. Christ will save the remaining bloodline Jews when he returns. He will open up a passageway for them to flee into Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1-2 describes the start of the tribulation where foreign nations will overwhelm Jerusalem burning and raping and carrying off the Jews into captivity. A remnant of Jewish people will remain there and the city will be overrun with foreigners. It is not until AFTER the tribulation when Jesus returns to earth and touches down on the Mt. of Olives that the Jews huddling and humbled in Jerusalem are rescued. When the Lord lands on the mountain a valley opens which the Jews escape into. Now who are these Jews? Jews who recognise the coming of the Messiah at his second advent who did not recognise his first advent. For if they had recognised his first advent they would have heeded the words of the Lord in Matthew 24 and escaped at the start of the tribulation when they saw the abomination of desolation set up. And if they believed the Lord and heeded his words it is because they are Christians of Jewish stock and are therefore part of the first resurrection which occurs at the end of the tribulation . And who comes to rescue these beleagured Jews?
Verse 5 "The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee". Who are the saints? Believers of Jesus who heeded his words and escaped into the mountains at the start of the tribulation and were faithful and received as part of the first resurrection at the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation. So clearly here we see that the Jews escaping the city are a DIFFERENT GROUP of people to the saints who are rescuing them and fighting against the nations.

The Lord and his armies will then come in and purge the Holy City destroying those armies which occupied it and utterly destroying the city and any temple that might be there.
This scourging of the Jewish people during the Great Tribulation and his powerful return and delivery and gathering of those people back into the nation is the process by which the bloodline Jews are grafted back into the root and stock of David from which they had been cut off in 70AD.
And so it will be that God's people will be delivered from that wicked city which is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt and brought into a land of their own inheritance

As I pointed out Benny, Messianic Jews ARE CHRISTIANS and have a part of the first resurrection. Messianic Jews read the New Testament and therefore flee the city at the start of the tribulation. There have been Messianic Jews since the formation of the church. The apostles were Messianic Jews. Now its my turn to rolleyes To imagine that every Jew in Jerusalem will read the New Testament and flee the AOD is breathtakingly absurd.

Excubitor,....You quote="I agree that all Israel will be saved.Not before the return of Christ though".....Which was your reply to my topic.....The problem is that you again did not perceive my meaning................Here is a cut and past that would apply to what I mean by stating..."All Israel will be saved".....I will continue to reply to your reply....Will All Israel Be Saved?
Ask a Bible Teacher

Q. The other day I was talking to someone and he pointed out these verses to me from Romans 11.



v.25 For I don't desire you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you won't be wise in your own conceits, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,



v.26 and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, and he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.



In verse 25 I was interested to see that it appears that we are waiting for that last Gentile to come in to the Kingdom for the rapture to happen. In verse 26 Paul states that all of Israel will be saved. Does that mean all of Israel that is alive at the beginning of the tribulation or the ones who make it through the tribulation or something else? I have Jewish friends who are so anti-Jesus it would give me comfort to know that they will be saved.


A. Yes, the Greek words Paul used indicate that there is a specified number for the Church and when that number is complete the Rapture will take place.



One of the two stated purposes of the Great Tribulation is the purification of Israel in preparation for God's return to dwell among them. (Jeremiah 30:11) This process begins with the national awakening at the end of Ezekiel's battle, (Ezek. 39:22) restoring Israel's Old Covenant relationship with God. Toward the end of the Great Tribulation, God will open their eyes to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah (Zech.12:10) completing the purification process.



As it is with all people, some will likely refuse to believe and be lost in the process, but I believe that many if not most of those alive when God calls them back to Him will eventually be saved. Most scholars interpret the phrase "all Israel" in verse 26 to mean that all the tribes of Israel will be represented among those saved.
Reply to Zechariah 14;1-2..And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication, so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."
Isn't that amazing? Israel in its blindness refusing its Messiah refusing to recognize the one that God sent, never realizing that the one whom they pierced is coming again And when he comes. he will speak these words (chapter 13 verse 6):


"And if one asks him, 'What are these wounds on your back?'" [or as other versions say in your hands ] "He will say, 'The wounds I received in the house of my friends.'"
This ties in with the vivid, descriptive sequence in chapter 14 (verses 1-4):


Behold, a day of the LORD is coming, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in the midst of you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives...
You remember that was the place that Jesus stood on this earth He went out with his disciples on the Mount of Olives and as they watched him he was taken up out of their sight into the heavens and an angel standing there said to them, This Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven " (Acts 1:11 ).


On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the sides of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. (14:4, 5)
Geologists have long known that one of the greatest faults in the earth's surface runs right through the Mount of Olives. The mountain shall be split in half, and then what? Well, when Israel has seen its Messiah and mourned for the one whom it pierced and has recognized with great mourning that it had turned its back upon the one sent of God, then we read (chapter 14, verses 8,9):


On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea; it shall continue in summer as in winter. And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.......Exccubitor quotes=Verse 5 "The Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee". Who are the saints? Believers of Jesus who heeded his words and escaped into the mountains at the start of the tribulation and were faithful and received as part of the first resurrection at the return of Christ at the end of the tribulation. So clearly here we see that the Jews escaping the city are a DIFFERENT GROUP of people to the saints who are rescuing them and fighting against the nations....Excubitor I will continue this reply tomorrow(unless the Rapture happens first )



............................................benny

What you are saying is that the instruction to flee into the mountains does not apply to Christians and that it only applies to the Jews and that the Great Tribulation is for the purification of jews only and not Christians. I have been denying this entirely in all of my posts with extremely well constructed arguments which you have been unable to refute.

I have insisted that Jews which are still under the Old Covenant will be purged in the Great Tribulation through severe national disaster. They who formerly rejected the messiah CHRIST will recognise the messiah AFTER he arrives in glory with his ALREADY resurrected saints. The saints and the messiah will rescue the remnant of their race AFTER the first resurrection. So those saved Jews will not be a part of the first resurrection but will live physical lives to restart the physical nation of Israel reconciled with God in the millenium.

Similarly Christians are also purged through the Great Tribulation. However THEY FLED from Jerusalem BEFORE the GT on account of taking heed of the AOD prophecy in Matthew WHICH JEWS (which are not messianic jews/Christians) DO NOT READ.
So Christians including Messianic jews/Christians who believe in Jesus are a part of the first resurrection and have no need to be saved AFTER the return of Christ when he lands on the Mt. of Olives.

yes the abomination of desolation has to happen too.

But first the weather disappears and the waters turn to blood.