Ok let's talk rapture....

Is it pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib, amillinial, or completely non existant?

For now I say we simply ask questions, try not to argue in a senseless manner as this topic often gets out of hand. I recommend that if it were to get out of hand that we create sub catagories addressing each perspective; so that the people of each point may address questions posed in their individual catagories, and having a so called rebuttal zone, in an orderly manner.

First question:
Is salvation contengent on the belief or disbelief in the rapture? Why?

YBIC

[quote name='itchy' date='Mar 24 2007, 05:36 PM' post='106683']
Ok let's talk rapture....

Is it pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib, amillinial, or completely non existant?

For now I say we simply ask questions, try not to argue in a senseless manner as this topic often gets out of hand. I recommend that if it were to get out of hand that we create sub catagories addressing each perspective; so that the people of each point may address questions posed in their individual catagories, and having a so called rebuttal zone, in an orderly manner.

First question:
Is salvation contengent on the belief or disbelief in the rapture? Why?

YBIC
[/quote]So, Itchy, before we go any further on this topic, please explain how you chose your user name.

Thank you sooooo much.

If the rapture is to be understood as the resurrection, then the answer is yes...otherwise we are a people most to be pitied and therefore let us eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die (just as Paul said it)



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015

In other words, salvation is contingent on the belief in the resurrection, or as others put it "rapture"

[center] [/center]
Ok let's talk rapture....

Is it pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-trib, amillinial, or completely non existant?

For now I say we simply ask questions, try not to argue in a senseless manner as this topic often gets out of hand. I recommend that if it were to get out of hand that we create sub catagories addressing each perspective; so that the people of each point may address questions posed in their individual catagories, and having a so called rebuttal zone, in an orderly manner.

First question:
Is salvation contengent on the belief or disbelief in the rapture? Why?

YBIC

[center] [/center]

First off there is no rapture in the bible, at all.
The word harpazo does not mean rapture.
The only reason that the word rapture ever appeared anywhere is because of popular opinion.
Nothing has ever happened or been done in Gods realm by popular opinion. Rather throughout history God has put the masses to death for believing heresies against His word and believing lies instead of the truth.
Salvation comes from God through the Lord Jesus Christ to those who believe.
Since there is no such thing as a rapture, Rapture has nothing to do with Jesus Christ. But rather in the elementary principles of the Gospel of Christ as written by Paul we find that For salvation you need to understand and believe Christ's teachings and example of the following.

The Elementary Principles of the Gospel of Christ (The Milk)
1. repentance from dead works
2. faith toward God
3. the doctrine of baptisms
4. the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead
5. the doctrine of the laying on of hands
6. the doctrine of eternal judgment

Rapture according to the Holman Bible Dictionary:
Copy and paste
RAPTURE The catching up of believers by Christ at the time of His return. The word came into use by way of the Latin rapio used to translate the Greek term of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, harpagesometha. Living believers are said to be "caught up" to meet the Lord at His coming. Those of varying millennial views about end time events all hold firmly to the biblical truth of such a rapture. However, it is within the premillennial view that the teaching of a rapture finds major emphasis.
This view sees a tribulation period immediately before the second coming of Christ. Pre-tribulationists see the rapture occuring prior to the tribulation. This approach places the church in heaven during the time of tribulation on earth.
Mid-tribulationists place the rapture at the mid-point of a seven-year tribulation period. The church remains on earth for the first half of the tribulation, but escapes the last half which is seen to be the time of intense or great tribulation. This view, along with the previous one, sees the second coming of Christ in two phases. The first phase will be a secret coming in clouds to rapture the church. The second will be His return with the church to reign on earth.
Posttribulationists hold the church will remain on earth during the tribulation period. While that time will be one of wrath upon the world system, the church will be protected from divine wrath although experiencing tribulation. This view avoids dividing the return of Christ into two phases.

end of copy and paste

Here is a website for those interested enougn to look up the orginal greek word.

ttp://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/1763/Harpagesometha.htm

You know the only thing that is for sure going to happen is :
The Lord is going to come back, just as He left, that means in the physical, on a cloud in the sky.
Will we see it before, during or after the trib, is really very unimportant. The Lord gave us a commission to do and that was to spread the good news and to teach others about His word and His dying and His ascention, because He died for you and me. Does it really matter if we go first, middle or last? If we go first, how will people learn about Jesus? If we go in the middle what happens to those we have not shared the gospel with or prayed for healing or feed? If we go last are we going to be tell each other "I told you so?"

It is really pointless to worry, cause tomorrow will never comes. Just step out of your comfort zone and TRUST GOD to come when HE is good and READY, be it today or next week. Go with God at your side and have a great day wherever you are. Remember Jesus Loves you enough that HE died for you.

I entirely avoid the use of the word rapture. It is not a biblical word. The Bible uses the world Resurrection. We should use the biblical word.
The reason why some use the word rapture is because they know that.

It is essential to believe in a post-tribulation resurrection because we must all prepare for the time of trial of the saints where we will be persecuted by friends and family and in particular by the antichrist and his society. We must all prepare for the day where we may not be able to buy and sell. We must all prepare for the day where we might need to leave all our belongings as Lot did and flee into the mountains. \

Those who believe they will not have to go through these things and are expecting to be whisked away out of their lounge chairs leaving our TV's blaring to nobody will not prepare for times of hardship in the Great Tribulation.

As a consequence they will be in the first tremendously discouraged at being either Left Behind, or let down by God when their faithful belief in the rapture fails; and in the second they will be mightily tempted to take on the Mark of the Beast to maintain their standard of living in this life.

The other frightening danger of the pretrib rapture belief is the incredible mental gymnastics the pretrib believer must make upon the Bible. A fast and loose approach to Bible interpretation that pretrib rapture necessitates will serve very badly in times of trouble when only the rock solid foundation of Bible truth will hold us steady.

The other even more terrifying danger of pretrib rapture belief is that it shows that this Christian believer is dreadfully prone to believing powerful delusions. Pretrib rapture is such a monstrous lie and is so plainly refuted by an even cursory scriptural enquiry that it is only by a very powerful delusion directly from the enemy that anybody could possibly believe it. If the Christian can be so readily deceived in this area it begs the question, in what other areas can he be deceived in?

Strong's Number: 726
Original Word
arpazo
from a derivative of (138)
Transliterated Word
Harpazo
1:472,80
Phonetic Spelling
har-pad'-zo
Verb
Definition
1.to seize, carry off by force
2.to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3.to snatch out or away
Word Usage - Total: 14 carry off 1, caught 4, snatch 2, snatched...away 1, snatches 1, snatches away 1, snatching 1, take...away...by force 1, take...by force 2


All rapture theories are earthly sensual demonic. The wisdom did not originate from above but from men.

I will not use the term rapture when speaking the truth of God.

I will now summarize three and a half years or 1335 days prior to the return of our Lord and Savior and include the catching away of the Lords army of saints. Afterward I will post all of the scriptures.

The Lord has prepared two prophets who are sent to the churches here on earth who claim to be Christ's people. After being rejected by most of the congregations that they are sent to. The Lords two prophets will close up heaven so that no rain falls on the earth during the remainder of their ministry. After being treated shamefully, by more self proclaimed Christians, they will begin to turn the oceans, seas, rivers, lakes, levies, canals, bottles and cans of water to blood. These plagues will destroy all nations on earth very quickly. During the time of their ministry many saints of God will emerge and start gathering the sheep into camps for the Lord all over the face of the earth where the true shepherds of our Lord will feed and water them. After billions of people have died from the plagues of the two prophets. A sinister group will emerge and gain control over the existing world of man and gather the wicked into their camp. These will have been surviving by eating their neighbors. They are a Christian bunch who will use the talk of eating Christ's flesh and drinking Christ's blood to seduce their followers even to where some willingly give up their life to be eaten by them. The final separation of all people left on earth will occur 1290 days after the two prophets start their ministry. Everyone will be in one camp or the other. The Lord will have moved all 2 to 3 billion of his sheep supernaturally to that place on earth where the final conflict between the devil and Christ will take place. It will be hunger and a search for food that will cause the devil and his messengers to eventually find the camps of the Lord. When the devil and his camp are ready to attack the Lord's sheep, exactly 1335 days after the two prophets started their ministry, The Lord will return and resurrect His army of saints from death and catch away the saints standing on the ground. They will mount up with wings like eagles and fly down on the heads of the enemy. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

1 Corinthians 6
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Revelation 5
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Jude 1
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Matthew 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His messengers, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Luke 17
24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.

Luke 17
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.

Luke 12
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.
6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.
5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?"
7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Zechariah 13
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "

Zechariah 11
9 Then I said, "I will not feed you. Let what is dying die, and what is perishing perish. Let those that are left eat each other's flesh."

Deuteronomy 12
31 You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.

Jeremiah 19
9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair." '

Lamentations 4
10 The hands of the compassionate women Have cooked their own children; They became food for them In the destruction of the daughter of my people.

Lamentations 2
20 "See, O Lord, and consider! To whom have You done this? Should the women eat their offspring, The children they have cuddled?* Should the priest and prophet be slain In the sanctuary of the Lord?

Deuteronomy 28
53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you.
54 The sensitive and very refined man among you will be hostile toward his brother, toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the rest of his children whom he leaves behind,
55 so that he will not give any of them the flesh of his children whom he will eat, because he has nothing left in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because of her delicateness and sensitivity, will refuse to the husband of her bosom, and to her son and her daughter,
57 her placenta which comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears; for she will eat them secretly for lack of everything in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you at all your gates.

Isaiah 9
19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts The land is burned up, And the people shall be as fuel for the fire; No man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand And be hungry; He shall devour on the left hand And not be satisfied; Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.

Jeremiah 25
30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The Lord will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth-- For the Lord has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the Lord."
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
34 "Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35 And the shepherds will have no way to flee, Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard. For the Lord has plundered their pasture,
37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce anger of the Lord.

Isaiah 34
1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

Deuteronomy 32
20 And He said: 'I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end will be, For they are a perverse generation, Children in whom is no faith.
29 Oh, that they were wise, that they understood this, That they would consider their latter end!
30 How could one chase a thousand, And two put ten thousand to flight, Unless their Rock had sold them, And the Lord had surrendered them?
31 For their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves being judges.

Isaiah 22
12 And in that day the Lord God of hosts Called for weeping and for mourning, For baldness and for girding with sackcloth.

Amos 8
9 "And it shall come to pass in that day," says the Lord God, "That I will make the sun go down at noon, And I will darken the earth in broad daylight;
10 I will turn your feasts into mourning, And all your songs into lamentation; I will bring sackcloth on every waist, And baldness on every head; I will make it like mourning for an only son, And its end like a bitter day.

Joel 2
1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them, And behind them a flame burns; The land is like the Garden of Eden before them, And behind them a desolate wilderness; Surely nothing shall escape them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses; And like swift steeds, so they run.
5 With a noise like chariots Over mountaintops they leap, Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble, Like a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before them the people writhe in pain; All faces are drained of color.
7 They run like mighty men, They climb the wall like men of war; Every one marches in formation, And they do not break ranks.
8 They do not push one another; Every one marches in his own column. Though they lunge between the weapons, They are not cut down.
9 They run to and fro in the city, They run on the wall; They climb into the houses, They enter at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

Ezekiel 9
1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, "Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand."
2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer's inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer's inkhorn at his side;
4 and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it."
5 To the others He said in my hearing, "Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity.
6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
7 Then He said to them, "Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!" And they went out and killed in the city.
8 So it was, that while they were killing them, I was left alone; and I fell on my face and cried out, and said, "Ah, Lord God! Will You destroy all the remnant of Israel in pouring out Your fury on Jerusalem?"
9 Then He said to me, "The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, 'The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!'
10 And as for Me also, My eye will neither spare, nor will I have pity, but I will recompense their deeds on their own head."
11 Just then, the man clothed with linen, who had the inkhorn at his side, reported back and said, "I have done as You commanded me."

Revelation 14
1 Then I looked, and behold, a* Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps.
3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Revelation 7
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Why am I the only one so far who answered Itchy's first question?



[quote]

First question:
Is salvation contengent on the belief or disbelief in the rapture? Why?

[/quote]

[quote name='onetiggerroo' date='Mar 24 2007, 07:40 PM' post='106687']
So, Itchy, before we go any further on this topic, please explain how you chose your user name.

Thank you sooooo much.
[/quote]

Love in Christ,

How did I choose the User name Itchy...

Simple

"...it is hard for you to kick against the pricks..."

I've been wrestling with some things and have still yet to overcome or understand most of it.

YBIC,
ITCHY

[quote name='itchy' date='Mar 25 2007, 12:13 PM' post='106752']
[quote name='onetiggerroo' date='Mar 24 2007, 07:40 PM' post='106687']
So, Itchy, before we go any further on this topic, please explain how you chose your user name.

Thank you sooooo much.
[/quote]

Love in Christ,

How did I choose the User name Itchy...

Simple

"...it is hard for you to kick against the pricks..."

I've been wrestling with some things and have still yet to overcome or understand most of it.

YBIC,
ITCHY
[/quote]Why the name Itchy? Why not Scratchy? Just curious.

What type of things have you been wrestling with?

what is the topic of this thread?

[/quote]Why the name Itchy? Why not Scratchy? Just curious.

What type of things have you been wrestling with?
[/quote]

Oh no.... there goes my password!!! NO JUST JOKING!!! Way toooooooooo obivous.

Itchy came to mind, and it relates.

What am I to be wrestling with? No longer to be discussed with mankind or my fellow believers. Only with God. Tried trusting in man and they wouldn't help, only scoffed! Even my brothers. So it is between me and my lord. And that is final. Sorry for three years you blew my trust in you. Even if it wasn't YOU. I've learned that you do not have the answers I need, because they didn't. Only God has the answers I need and He is patiently revealing them to me as I grow.


Ok the rapture....

I guess we have to deal with semantics.

The rapture means in my definition to be caught up, taken, transformed.

In my opinion the rapture is part of the resurrection. The dead will rise in Christ first and we which remain will be caught up after them. We will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. We will be caught up in the clouds with Christ. We shall not all sleep/ be dead.

As such, if the resurrection is real... If we are to be transformed in the twinkling of an eye... If we are to put on incorruptible... If we are to receive a Glorified body In Christ Jesus.

And the above stated is real!!!

They we must believe in some form of Rapture in which we will be caught up out of this fallen creation and placed in the new heaven and earth.

My answer is Yes the belief in the "rapture" is needed for salvation... or else what is the point? Oh... but I see a ........ something.

Itchy you said:

[quote] Oh no.... there goes my password!!! NO JUST JOKING!!! Way toooooooooo obivous.

Itchy came to mind, and it relates.

What am I to be wrestling with? No longer to be discussed with mankind or my fellow believers. Only with God. Tried trusting in man and they wouldn't help, only scoffed! Even my brothers. So it is between me and my lord. And that is final. Sorry for three years you blew my trust in you. Even if it wasn't YOU. I've learned that you do not have the answers I need, because they didn't. Only God has the answers I need and He is patiently revealing them to me as I grow.


Ok the rapture....

I guess we have to deal with semantics.

The rapture means in my definition to be caught up, taken, transformed.

In my opinion the rapture is part of the resurrection. The dead will rise in Christ first and we which remain will be caught up after them. We will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye. We will be caught up in the clouds with Christ. We shall not all sleep/ be dead.

As such, if the resurrection is real... If we are to be transformed in the twinkling of an eye... If we are to put on incorruptible... If we are to receive a Glorified body In Christ Jesus.

And the above stated is real!!!

They we must believe in some form of Rapture in which we will be caught up out of this fallen creation and placed in the new heaven and earth.

My answer is Yes the belief in the "rapture" is needed for salvation... or else what is the point? Oh... but I see a ........ something.[/quote]

You trust me?...and known me for how long? Okay that was a little off kilter.

...regarding the Rapture....

Can you back up what you are saying with some scriptures, regarding the Rapture.

You seem to bounce around from subject to subject a lot, but you are not saying a whole lot about anything. Either you are a Christian or you are trying hard to pull the wool over eyes.

How about it, Chicken Little....will he or won't he?

What people refer to as the "rapture" involves the living, and the resurrection involves the dead. Like Tig said, first the dead who are Christ's are resurrected, and then the living who are His are caught up to meet the Him. But since the resurrection and the "catching up" happen at basically the same time, it's pretty much looked at as the same event. I don't see a real time period between the two--it's one right after the other at His coming for us.

I don't know if your salvation is dependent on your believing that He's coming for you, but if you don't believe the Bible, that's a problem. The Bible says He will, and that there will be a resurrection (more than one) and a "catching up," and whenever you place that, it IS a fact and it IS going to happen. He said He is coming back, so you need to read His Word. I'm not trying to get onto you at all--just read the words of the Lord and believe His promises to you. And then look for Him like it was going to be TODAY. Be ready for Him. If He came today, right now, would you be ready to meet Him with tears of joy? Are you prepared? (Do I sound like a tract?!?!)

To be honest, I think the rapture is completely irrelevant and a distraction from whatever plan god has for us. We shouldnt preoccupy ourselves with the end, but rather focus on living our lives to the fullest now.

I don't expect to be "raptured". Rev 13 informs us that the "beast" will "make war on the saints". This will be our time to shine. To show the faith we talk about. To bear a witness and give warning to the world of the God ordained test that will take place shortly after the two "beast" take over. We who belong to Jesus and due to Jesus's Spirit and Revelation know what is going on will be warning the world to NOT TAKE the "mark" to NOT WORSHIP the "beast" and to "NOT WORSHIP" the "image of the beast". Rev 14 clearly reveals the terrible fate of those who take the mark and worship the beast and worship his image. God has ordained a great and simple and final worldwide test. I'm not sure which event is going to happen first. The massize Ezikiel predicted invasion of Isreal, or the world amazing reappearance of the supreme "Beast". www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett

"And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." (Genesis 5 : 24)

"Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and sparated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into Heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, "My Father, my Father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!" So he saw him no more..."

These Old Testament Prophets were raptured. And there are many proofs of the Rapture of Believers within the New Testament writings of Paul, our Apostle. To believe in the fact of the Rapture is to have faith that He will keep us from out of the trial which is about to fall upon the unbelieving world. There is no further testing to be done for Believers... since it is a pass/fail situation. Since the One Who restrains is holding back the beast of the pit, and since we will be changed to be made of the same stuff Our Risen and Glorified Lord is made of, we will ascend in the clouds of Heaven, just as Our Risen Lord has done in His Rapture.

Spooky,

Did you ever read Isa 24:16? The lie about the rapture is come from John Nelson Darby and has no basis in Scripture. All bodily dead will be raised up ON THE VERY LAST DAY according to the words of Jesus Christ himself. Isa 24:16 shows us clearly that God's people will be on this earth during the tribulation, so why believe in such manmade fantasies as the rapture? Do you dare challenge Jesus on that?

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Rapture, for soon, I am afraid. Pre-trib, I believe. I am more and more convinced of that every day. It's just like God would have it to have it


LIKE A COUNTDOWN...

Dear Anne,

Why do you believe in doctrines that are not in the Bible? It is clearly said by Jesus himself that THERE WILL BE NO BODILY RESURRECTION UNTIL THE VERY LAST DAY. So dont make God a liar by claiming that Jesus Christ will return in person and resurrect bodily dead before that LAST DAY.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Rev chapter 13 informs us that the "beast will wage war on the saints".

Later in the Rev we are shown the WONDERFUL destiny/reward of those who do NOT "worship the beast" and do NOT worship his image" and who do NOT take the "mark of the beast". These saved, blessed saints were "beheaded". Clearly they were tested and passed the test.

Chapter 14 tells us of the incredibly awful fate of those who do worship the beast or his image or take his mark. Clearly they also were put to the test and failed the test.

God did not keep the 3 young men from going into the furnace.

Nor did God keep Daniel from going into the lions den.

A "rapture" cannot happen until after believers have been put to the test and many [if not most] have been murdered by those who belong to the "beast".

Agreed.

It is interesting to note that the Catholic church does not teach the pretrib rapture and teaches that the church will go through a period of terrible testing under the antichrist, prior to the return of Jesus Christ. Which is of course what the scripture clearly teaches. In fact the scriptures, the teaching of the church, the traditions of the saints throughout 2000 years ALL agree that the church must endure the Great Tribulation. The current trend to believe in a pretrib rapture is just a blip on the radar which most Christians had never even heard of or considered until the last ten years or so. I am still amazed at how many Christians which I speak to have never heard of the pretrib rapture and react in astonished amazement that such an absurd teaching could be taught and regularly believed in pentecostal/fundamental/evangelical circles.

PJ, I have no way of knowing why you disregarded the Scriptures I gave you about Enoch and Elijah, but I have read the text you gave me to read, and I see that the first sentence is said of Christians; however, the last three sentences are for the Hebrews... which are prefaced with the words, "But I said,..."

I do not challenge Jesus; I challenge you, PJ. "Bodily dead"... these are not ALL of the members of the Body of Christ, His Bride. You have no knowledge of those who shall not sleep, yet shall be changed? If you are here on earth during the Great Tribulation, you will either have to be one of the 144K or one of their converts, all of which have the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus... God has always given mankind free will. If it is your will to have the need to be tested by fire, you will be tested; for you will have said that you are rich (in knowledge) and have need of nothing.

Dear Spooky,

You wrote this to me:



My answer:
I dont disregard the scriptures you gave about Enoch and Elijah but reject your application of these scriptures for maintaining the unbiblical doctrine of rapture. When you read Heb 11 and compare Heb 11:5, which is about Enoch, with Heb 11:39, you are informed by Scripture that "ALL these (also Enoch), while winning divine approval through their faith, DID NOT RECEIVE THE PROMISE." So not even Enoch received the promise, and Scripture tells us why (Heb 11:39): "For God had in view something better for us, SO THAT WITHOUT US THEY WOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT." Therefore you cannot maintain that Enoch and Elijah already are in heaven, thus having made it there before other believers. No, these scriptures show us that they are "in the lap of Abraham", waiting for their resurrection. Their transformation thus was for the sake of example, symbolizing the two witnesses of Rev 11:3, but in person they experienced bodily death in a way.

What do you mean by saying that the last three sentences of Isa 24:16 are for the Hebrews? You ought to remember that the great tribulation that Isa 24 foretells is a global happening which according to Scripture takes place in the time of the sixth trumpet (in the midst of NT time) and those singing at the uttermost part of the earth are of Gentile extraction. The prophet therefore symbolizes both Gentile worldly and Jewish wordly people who have not been sealed before the day of wrath. The Jews are included because they have not yet accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah, but they will accept him later, when the time of the seventh trumpet starts. This is what Scripture reveals.

You wrote:


My answer:
Well, since you challenge me you first ought to know that your stance is new and you therefore have to be the first one to prove that there will be a bodily resurrection BEFORE THE LAST DAY. The apostles never taught such a thing! How can you get around the fact that Jesus will resurrect ALL THE DEAD who are in the grave when he returns in person on the last day, and also transform those who are still living in flesh at that time? The Bible clearly shows us that no dead person will be raised from the dead before that time and live until Jesus returns. It also shows that nobody will get to heaven BEFORE the rest of God's people. If you still dont agree, then prove from Scripture that I am wrong.

You wrote:


My answer:
Dont you know what the trial is which is mentioned in Rev 3:10? Let me tell you that the trial and test that all the world shall go through is connected to the testimony of the two witnesses of Rev 11:3. When their testimony is heard and you reject it because the Devil succeeds in tempting you to do so, you will have failed in that trial. That trial comes BEFORE THE TRIBULATION, for when the tribulations starts God's wrath will remain over the ungodly world, and nobody will be able to enter the 'temple of God'. There is nothing to back up a belief in bodily resurrection at that time, namely in the midst of NT time.

You wrote:


My answer:
These OT prophets did not enter into heaven but the place where all saints together will be waiting for the great day of resurrection. So, there is not even ONE proof of the rapture as you present it in Scipture. It is also wrong to believe that the saints will not experience the trials. Of course they will, since they too are still living in flesh on this earth and experience the tribulation.

Your words on the "holding back of the beast" shows me that you dont know at all what the beast is, and that it has come long time ago. The true apostolic church was the one that held the man of perdition back, but only as long as it was true. When it was overcome by falsehood the man of perdition came into the holy place and became the abomination that should not be there.

Yes, I dont reject that the people of God will ascend in the clouds of heaven, but I must emphasize that that resurrection, which is bodily, will take place ON THE LAST DAY. Not until then! So I advise you to pay heed to what Scripture really tells us instead of believing in man-made fiction!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

(PJ's quotes, and spooky answers.)

"...Therefore you cannot maintain that Enoch and Elijah already are in heaven, thus having made it there before other believers. No, these scriptures show us that they are "in the lap of Abraham", waiting for their resurrection. Their transformation thus was for the sake of example, symbolizing the two witnesses of Rev 11:3, but in person they experienced bodily death in a way."

Did I say they were in Heaven? I assume they are in Paradise. I said they were raptured = taken off the earth without having died. You are right to say that this was done for the sake of example, tho.

"What do you mean by saying that the last three sentences of Isa 24:16 are for the Hebrews?..."

The last three sentences of Isaiah 24 :16 are echoes of Isaiah 21 : 2, where the future of Edom and Media are discovered... and in verse 6 is the watchman of Israel, as Ezekiel 3 : 17 and 33 : 2-20 also prophesy.

"Well, since you challenge me you first ought to know that your stance is new and you therefore have to be the first one to prove that there will be a bodily resurrection BEFORE THE LAST DAY..."

There was a bodily resurrection at the Cross of Christ... Nevertheless, I simply meant that you were speaking of dead bodies, while I was speaking of the mystery revealed by Paul in 1Cor 15 : 51.

"The true apostolic church was the one that held the man of perdition back..."

The Holy Spirit is "He Who now restrains"... the Church is never called "he," PJ.

Dear Spooky,

I am now back and will comment on what you wrote to me:



My answer:
Whatever you answer as to place you will have to admit that both Enoch and Elijah have not reached any farther or been exalted to a higher place than those who have believed in God and died in their faith, as is clearly seen from Heb 11:40. There is no denying it. Therefore the two of them are in the same keeping by the Lord as the rest of the saints, that is, in the same place as the dead, waiting for their resurrection on the LAST DAY. And they will never ever return to this earth again as is seen from Eccl 9:5-6.



My answer:
Isa 21 is concerning Babel whereas Isa 24 relates to the WHOLE EARTH, and Edom and Media are passed-by kingdoms that are of little interest in connection with Isa 24. So what you say about the last three sentences in Isa 24:16 is wrong. In the great tribulation the Jews will not be worse situated than the rest of humanity, for all mankind shall go through these coming hardships through which God cleanses away iniquity from the face of the earth.



My answer:
That Jesus was resurrected doesnt mean that other people also will be resurrected before the LAST DAY comes. What are mentioned in the Bible as resurrections are simply examples to substantiate the power of the salvation work that Jesus Christ accomplished. All such people as Lazarus are all the same in God's keeping, still waiting for their resurrection on the great day.

What the apostle Paul describes in 1 Cor 15:51 is what shall happen ON THE LAST DAY. It is just twisting the Scripture if you claim that this resurrection of the dead and the change of the living is something that happen before the last day. No, listen what the apostle says: "at the last trump". So, what are you going to say to the biblical fact that the great tribulation comes about in the beginning of the 6th trumpet's time, wheareas the resurrection takes place at the end of the 7th trumpet's time? You twisters of Scripture have all missed this point that is so devastating to your lies.



My answer:
Listen, there is no power that can fight the Holy Spirit and prevail over it, or remove the spirit by force. The prophetic words in Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2:6 show through the expression "till HE is taken out of the way" (Greek: heoos ek mesou geneetaiou', 3 pers. sg. 2 aorist. mid. dep. subj.) that it is the body of Jesus Christ, namely his CHURCH, that is removed. The pronoun 'he' is used of the church since Jesus Christ is its life. What undgodly people do to God's people, they do to Jesus Christ himself. So, destroying the church was like killing Jesus Christ. Removing the church was like removing him. That is why this falling-away is pictured by the prophets as the removal of the anointed one. What power did war against the true apostolic church other than the beast in Rev 13? When it won its victory the false spirit of Antichrist settled in the fallen-away church and became its sprit. When God's people still let God and His spirit guide them, they were safe, but the apostle knew that the last our of the church (not of God's spirit) was near, so he wrote (1 John 2:18):

"Dear children, this is the LAST hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour."

When there came more and more false teachers and believers they finally outnumbered the true followers of God and quenched their voice and doctrine. In this way was the church removed out of the way and Antichrist took its place. Because men were disobedient to the true doctrine of God they went astray, and God's spirit had to leave them. Don't think that God's spirit left the church into the hands of the beast but rather that people left the guidance of the spirit and thus lost their way. The Devil could not prevail against the spirit but he could prevail against people who did not stay awake in the apostolic doctrine.

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Suppose this, lets say that the people are caught up around false teachers and false prophets and false christ. Then a great falling away from them occurs. Now them false fellows are no longer highly esteemed and they no longer have their believers cloak of covering and so, in the great falling away from them the man of sin that they really are can now be seen. And so the man of sin is revealed. When the people wake up to the truth about them wolves in sheep's clothing and leave off following them and supporting them. Just fall out from amongst them and be ye separate.

Don't be sorrowful. Rejoice! Our redemption draweth nigh...

Dear Daniel Jackson,

As long as you want to talk about biblical things you should keep yourself to what Scripture itself reveals and tells us instead of making up your own different theory and definitions of its contents. Nowhere in Scripture does falling-away mean that people leave false teachers and false prophets but true teachers and prophets. The Bible doesnt talk about apostacy from the Devil, so you should stop fantasizing like you do. You also ought to stop twisting what the Bible tells about the son of perdition and the way he is revealed. The Greek says the following: "kai nun to katechon oidate eis to apokaluftheenai afton en too heaftou kairoo," which means that God's people know what it is that restrains him (the son of perdition) and is the cause why he does not come into view before his time is there. The Greek word for restraint or holding back is in opposition with becoming visible, that is, with coming into power. As long as the apostolic church remains true it is capable of restraining the son of perdition (Antichrist). When the church became lax false doctrine surreptitiously crept into the fold of the church and became the tares that finally choked the truth.When that was accomplished the son of man was revealed, that is, became visible.

Scripture tells us that the son of perdition will remove the daily sacrifice and make himself the object of worship. This way of his will succeed until the Lord returns and starts consuming him WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, namely with His word. Therefore, it is the Lord himself who reveals the son of perdition by his word, not a number of people who stop following certain false teachers or prophets and start follwoing other ones of the same category.

I will now ask you where people should go when they notice that they have been deceived? Do you know of any true teacher they should follow instead?

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

Dear Anne,

Why should I not be sad at seeing that you follow the false teachings of trecherous men, as is the doctrine of rapture. If you are like the Pentacostalists you believe that Jesus comes to this earth 4 times:

1) He was born as a man
2) He comes in the clouds to fetch you up to heaven for 7 years
3) He comes back to earth from heaven together with you to establish his Millennium
4) And since Scripture says that he will return from heaven on the LAST DAY to judge the living and dead, you must postulate a fourth coming, even though the problem will be that he is already on earth according to your own third postulation.

Your error is that the second and third postulation of yours is false, for Jesus will never fetch you to heaven before the Millennium, nor will he come down on this earth in person. He will return in the clouds on the very LAST DAY and resurrect his dead and change his people who are alive in the flesh by then, and together all his people will be taken up in the air to meet him. This earth will catch fire and be consumed.

Dont miss these biblical facts!

With sorrow in heart
PehJeshua

A Messianic Jewish woman said she liked the website discussing the rapture at www.Rapture4.netfirms.com
I would welcome any thoughts on its succinct 10 points.

Richard

The "rapture" is going to happen well I should say caught up. When how ever is still unknown to me. I have seen both sides of the fence and both sides make great points. I hear talks about how the saints before us went through it why shouldn't we.

We all talk big when it is not happening to us right now. I would think concerning the different point of views depending on the beliefs in in pre-trib and post-trib is that one who believe in pre-trib are doing and living for God today and possibly the post-trib doctrines are busy getting ready and preparing to save themselves.

I have done the math figuring how many gallons of water my family will to hold out for 7 years I have learned ways to create solar stills to purify water. Calculated and ran over food preparations. I can tell you that it is very expensive to prepare I can barely make it now let alone trying to by extra to store up for my family.

We are talking wilderness what does that sound? Do you think we will be living in our plush homes? No I would think wilderness. The bible teachers brother against brother, father against son and so on. We will have to leave to save our lives. I was in the national forest the other day and let me tell you its not your camping trip to the local camp ground it is tough. The judgement spoken of in Revelation and Daniel is far greater that what the past saints went through. The bible says a global tribulation correct? If we need to suffer the same fate as the past saints or at least go through the tribulation because we are no better than they. Please take a look were government does not protect freedom of religion, they are killed and beaten already for Christ. So we would say that they need more trials and tribulations as well? Or would you say they have paid their price already?

We are told to put our trust in Christ and have faith in Him we hold fast to the belief our sins are forgiven by faith in Him. Yet we are so quick to say that God is going to put us through the tribulation to prove ourselves for Him. When did loving God become a street gang where we had to prove ourselves to Him? However who am I to say what God wants for His people my life and my families lives are in His hands and in His hands alone.


I hope for a pre-trib "caught up" because I can not prepare physically for the tribulation my finances will not allow it at this time. I will have to prepare myself spiritually and mentally if it was to come down to that. In since I am preparing for the worst but praying for the best. I have to stress pray if we look at Luke 21 we see it speaking on the end of the age the tribulation look what Jesus says in verse 36

Luke 21:36

36Watch ye therefore, and PRAY ALWAYS, that ye may be ACCOUNTED
WORTHY TO ESCAPE all THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS, and to
stand before the Son of man.


To me we still have a chance I pray we have a chance. I hope to see you all very soon in the presence of our Lord


Oh concerning the topic maybe Yes and No I would just say faith in Him

I am sympathetic with what you say, but there is another dimension that we should consider.
The sealing involves making a covenant with God (Nehemiah 9:38). God’s covenant gives the Promised Land to spiritual Israel. “If you be Christ’s you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29). Seven times God promised Abraham that land. The New Covenant promise is not about a new covenant, but a promise of a renewed covenant that is written on our hearts:
“Lo, the days come, says the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, says the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it…for I am with thee, says the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee… in the latter days ye shall consider it” (Jeremiah 30:3,11,24). This “latter day” gathering of God’s people is the setting or context for the New Covenant promise to write His law in our hearts, Jeremiah 31:33.
………………………………………………………………
Land = Wealth
The basis of true wealth in our world is land. That’s why it’s called “real” estate. Land can grow crops for food, and trees for houses and paper; it has minerals like iron, etc. But as the world gets more populated, there does not seem to be enough land for some people’s greed or livelihood.
God covenanted to give to Abraham the most valuable real estate in the world--”from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18). This is an “unbelievable deal,” except God is the giver and if we can believe His word, the real estate is for us! Can God deliver the goods? The millions of Jews in that little area of Israel may wonder—that’s why Rabin was assassinated--he was giving away land that God had given them.
The Covenant is for End-time
In Daniel 12:7, the man in linen swears. The Hebrew word shaba means he sevens himself, as in an oath or covenant (Daniel 12:7). This suggests that when God says something seven times, it pertains to the covenant and to God’s plan to accomplish in end-time what His ancient people failed to realize because of their lack of faith. Seven times God said He would give Abraham that land, Genesis 12:1,7; 13:15,17; 15:7,18; 17:8.
Do we have faith to trust the Bible, or do we prefer human reasoning and our own devices? The covenant can be our covenant; it’s really an option. It was a one-sided promise by God to Abraham who took animals, sacrificed and divided them, and should have passed between them as if to say, “May I be torn apart like this meat if I fail to keep my part.” But in his case, God caused a “deep sleep” to fall on Abraham, and only God, as a “burning lamp” went between the sacrifice--He alone has the obligation of the covenant (Genesis 15:9-18). The covenant is freely offered and we can take it or leave it.
Spiritual Israel
You may say, “That was for Abraham and his seed. I am not Jewish.” If you believe the Bible, and accept the Messiah, you don’t need to be Jewish. It says, “If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed [spiritually] and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29).
“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” Sir Isaac Newton.
It’s amazing that men of intellect could see in the future what some of us can’t see in present. God is going to unite Jews who will accept IAUshua as their Messiah and Christians who will accept the torah as “the law of IAUA [that] is perfect, converting the soul.” (Psalm 19:7). We see this foretold in Ezekiel 37 where the dry bones come together to become a body with flesh:
“These bones are the house of Israel...I will...bring you into the land of Israel...neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all” (Ezekiel 37:11,12,32).
“Church” Means Called Out
The meaning of church [the Greek word, ekklesia, means "called-out"] in the end-time must be more than at any other "calling-out" in history. And to mean more, it must be more than an ideological calling out of "Babylon" when we are still surrounded by Babylon. Here’s the last prophetic call in the Bible:
“Babylon the great is fallen….Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Revelation 18:2,4).
There will be a prophetic opportunity to leave America, probably in courtesy from the U.S. Government—with the “wings of a great eagle” (Revelation 12:14). This may be God’s way of protecting us, just as He provided for Jews to return to their land from Persia at Artaxerxes’ decree in 457 BC. Those who did not return were faced with death in Esther’s time.
“All these things happened to them for ensamples ...written for our admonition on whom the ends of the world are come” (1 Corinthians 10:11). Going to the Promised Land will require major faith; but staying to face the New World Order is presumptuous and risks the wrath of God (Revelation 14:9,10).
"That which God purposed to do for the world through Israel, the chosen nation, He will finally accomplish through His church on earth today…even to His covenant-keeping people...and to them will be fulfilled all the covenant promises made by [IAUA] to His ancient people." The Captivity & Restoration of Israel, 713,714

Christians (Gentiles) living by the law of ISUA? Please enlighten me on that.

Oops, I overlooked a line. It had been written for Messianic believers who believe in Hebrew names, but Josephus said God's name "consists of four vowels" (yod, hey, vav, hey). The best of Hebrew transliterates them as IAUA and Christ's (Hebrew) name as IAUshua.

Names, proper nouns, should be tranliterated sound-for-sound rather than translated. They don't call Bush little shrub in China
I can respond with more on this if you are interested.

Richard

Christs' main law is to love one another..

I believe the taking away for the true followers of Yeshua will be toward the end of the seven years. Actually more accurately in between the mid-trib, and post-trib. I mean that there is a time when the followers will be taken, and the most difficult time will happen. I don't remember exactly what the book of Daniel says, but I think the Word there says that the biggest wrath will happen during the last several months of the wrath of Eloheem(God). Then after that wrath from Eloheem (God) and the punishment of those who do not believe, after that wrath Yeshua (Jesus) will come back, and establish with His followers His fully manifested ruling kingdom.

In considering the contingency of the belief or disbelief in the rapture. This idea brings up the thoughts of faith, and true faith has faith that works by love, and that means there is works in faith, and love, it is true any fruit we have is because of the faith we have. So people are saved as soon as they believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah, but in order to continue to abide in Yeshua Meshiach (Jesus Christ) we need to have works that show we have faith. Works that are not faith do not save, but true faith has works that are true works because of the faith. So any thought, word, and/or deed against God is also against faith, and is also against love. One such understanding is people can have faith, but if there actions are not correct in those areas of works that are incorrect they are not in Christ, and must be changed into the image of Christ in order to be overcomers. It is possible to have faith in Christ, but not have all areas of ourselves be in Yeshua (Jesus). Those parts that are not in Yeshua are not having faith. If we are renewed in all areas of spirit, and soul then we will believe even to the saving of the body. This saving of the body happens in many different ways and refers to many different things.