Ok so here is the dream I had early this morning:

I was teaching some people regarding prophecy in my dream, and as I was teaching something popped into my head regarding the 2 witnessess. I started to think in my dream about what Dani and I had studied about while she came to visit me. I believe the scripture that we looked at was about if any believe God they have the witness in himself, (witness being the Holy spirit) I think it was in chapter 5 of 1 John. Anyway I started saying something like this, Ok lets think for a moment. When Jesus came to earth the 1st time the religious scholars missed him!

They were looking for Him to come literally and set up and earthly kingdom and He didn't. They missed it, so lets think for a moment on these same lines. What if the 2 witnesses are not literal people that show up? What if the witnesses are connected to the former and later rain that the scriptures speak about. The 1st witness was the Holy spirit falling on the day of Pentecost and the 2 witness will be the later Rain of the Holy spirit?


It was just a really odd dream. Of course I got up and checked some scriptures out, I really do not see how this could fit but it was just rather odd like I said. I was drawn to Rev 11 and Zech 4. speaking of the 2 olive trees 1 on the right side and one on the left side? It seems that the trees (symbolic of the witnesses are seperated by the menorah or candelstick? You know like one event seperated by another? I do not know I just need to seek the Lord. Another thing that was really odd, it seemed that before I started the dream I was awaken and was thinking about the witnesses and then drifted off and bam I was dreaming about them?

Like I said a little odd but I will certainly seek the Lord about it.


I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts concerning the dream?


Your Friend in Christ,
Val
Messiahiscoming

I'm not really sure how to interpret your dream, but I have always believed the 2 witnesses is the church. Candlesticks in Revelation consistently represent the 7 churches, so 2+2 = 4 in my book.



Revelation 20 (oops, 19) says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, and the two witnesses are "prophets" and that every matter must be "confirmed" by the testimony of at least two witnesses. Blessed is he who has not seen yet believes...(told to Thomas, meaning "twin")

Val, you are correct about "how to think" so not to miss it again.
mmddll is correct in his thinking about the Witnesses being the church. Remember that the end time church has two sections. God is not forgetting Israel, thus two olive trees and candlesticks
.
Look at Jesus sending out His disciples two by two. There are two stone tablets with Moses (actually I think they are called witnesses in Hebrew ....again I will look if my memory serves my right)
Two tablets, two disciples, two olive trees,two prophets (those who speak the Word of God) two candlesticks, Gentiles and Israel. Jesus in the centre of all...

look here at the Hebrew of the two anointed ones mentioned in Zac 4
H1121
בּן
bên
bane
From H1129; a son (as a builder of the family name), in the widest sense (of literal and figurative relationship, including grandson, subject, nation, quality or condition, etc., (like H1, H251, etc.): - + afflicted, age, [Ahoh-] [Ammon-] [Hachmon-] [Lev-]ite, [anoint-]ed one, appointed to, (+) arrow, [Assyr-] [Babylon-] [Egypt-] [Grec-]ian, one born, bough, branch, breed, + (young) bullock, + (young) calf, X came up in, child, colt, X common, X corn, daughter, X of first, + firstborn, foal, + very fruitful, + postage, X in, + kid, + lamb, (+) man, meet, + mighty, + nephew, old, (+) people, + rebel, + robber, X servant born, X soldier, son, + spark, + steward, + stranger, X surely, them of, + tumultuous one, + valiant[-est], whelp, worthy, young (one), youth.

its made up of two words, the second one:
H3323
יצהר
yitshâr
yits-hawr'
From H6671; oil (as producing light); figuratively anointing: - + anointed, oil.

We also know that Christ means

G5547
Χριστός
Christos
khris-tos'
From G5548; anointed, that is, the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus: - Christ.

So we have: branches, which are sons, which are anointed. We have those who are Christians...the Christ-in people..the Anointed-in people, who are the branches..He is the vine.

Here is a bit of a good study that makes it clearer than I can
LINK

We have heard from those who see the letter that these two witnesses are literally only Moses and Elijah or some say Enoch. In the text we are told of another parable of who the two witnesses are. (Rev 11:3) And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (4) These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks (Greek: “lampstands”), standing before the Lord of the earth. This term, “Standing before the Lord of the earth” is only found in one other place. (Zech 4:14) Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. This would make the two anointed ones the two witnesses. We will see that the two anointed ones in Zech.3,4 are Joshua and Zerubbabel, not Moses and Elijah. We will also see proof in Revelation that they are Moses and Elijah. If we are looking for two physical men, then we have at least four now. Obviously these two sets of men are not physical individuals but parables of the end time two corporate witnesses.



We have another witness of this principle. (Zech.4:2)… behold, a candlestick all of gold, with its bowl upon the top of it, and its seven lamps thereon; there are seven pipes to each of the lamps, which are upon the top thereof; (3) and two olive-trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof. You will notice that the only other place this phrase “two olive trees” is found is in Revelation 11:4 above and they are once again Joshua and Zerubbabel, the two witnesses. These olive tree witnesses appear to be feeding their anointing oil to seven lamps, which represents them being the light to the seven churches. (Zech.4:11, 14)… What are these two olive-trees … which are beside the two golden spouts, that empty the golden [oil] out of themselves? … These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Jesus told His first two witnesses who stood by the Lord of the whole earth, Ye are the light of the world. This lets you know that the importance of His witnesses parallel the importance of the end time witnesses to the world and the Church. They are forefathers, the reformers, and the light bearers.



The Lord said in Revelation 11:3,4 that “my two witnesses … are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks (Greek: “lampstands”)… Since the olive tree in Romans 11 represents the corporate body of Christ which is grafted into Israel through their faith, these two olive trees must also represent two corporate witness bodies. Also each “candlestick” in this verse is a “lampstand” in Greek. That could be seven lamps off of one stem as the candlestick in Zechariah 4:2 above is. This is a menorah or candelabra. Once again we see a corporate body ministering to a corporate body. (Rev.1:12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks; (13) and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man. Verse 20 tells us “the seven candlesticks are seven churches” and the Lord is standing in the midst of the seven candlesticks. That symbolizes one stem and seven branches like Jesus said, “I am the vine, ye are the branches.” So a lampstand symbolizes the church with Christ at its center. It symbolized this in the Old Testament tabernacle in Exodus 25: 31,37, and here in the New Testament. Jesus stood in the midst of seven individual golden candlesticks because the church was spread out. It was not just in one geographical location or one race anymore. The two candlesticks in Revelation 11:4 are only one in Zechariah 4:2 above because the two witnesses are actually one body, which we will continue to see.

Hey I just wanted to say thank you for your input guys! I will have to certainly seek the Lord concerning all of this. This is certainly outside my bounds of thinking but hey the Lord's way's are certainly not my ways. I will pray and seek His understanding of it all.


Once again thanks for sharing,
Your Friend in Christ,
Val

Messiahiscoming

Ok, the reference for what t I am going to say here is the Book of Zechariah.

And the picture here is this.

Just as Yawah took a rib from the side of Adam and fashioned him a help mate who was Eve. Yawah took a branch from the olive tree which is Israel and fashioned the Bride of Christ which is the Body of Christ. Christ is from the true vine and the root and offspring of David, and He is the rib that the other olive tree is made of.

The other olive tree then is the Body of Christ and so two olive branches reach to the candlestick and feed it with oil. And the two witnesses in the earth through the ages are Israel and the Body of Christ. Both pump up the oil of the Spirit from within them through a deposit of the living word inside them and thus their prayers in the ages and their inner faith has kept the light burning.

So go and read the Book of Zechariah and learn the truth once and for all about the two winesses in the earth. Man I just do not understand how all of this stuff I tell you can go unnoticed. A prophet of old is amongst you and you are blind.

Dan

Thank you for you post! I have been seeking the Lord for the past 2 days about my dream! What you just shared here today is exactly what I feel the Lord has been showing me! Thank you for so eloquently putting it. I could have never worded it the way you did.



Your Friend in Christ,

Val

Messiahiscoming

I don't buy the olive tree thing Daniel. This verse in Zechariah annuls that analogy.
Zechariah 4
11 Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."

Here is a new thread we can discuss it on. Two Olive Trees

I'm praying on this:

Mark 9: 11-13

And they asked him, saying. Why say the scribes that Elias must FIRST come?

12. And he answered and told the, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.

13. But I say unto you, that Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Then we turn to Rev. 11:1-13

4. These are the TWO olive trees, and the TWO candlesticks standing before God of the earth.

And the verse about God removing our candlestick?

Revelation 1:20
the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks are seven churches. So candlesticks (or lampstands in the Hebrew) = church

The only time people struggle with this, is when it does not fit their doctrine. THEN I must admit, it is very difficult to understand....but if you just believe the Bible when it says it is churches then it is rather simple.
C

Hi Val. The two witnesses, is much more elementary than what is being said in this thread. I believe they are the old and new testament. That's it.

The Bible, being divided into two major books had testified of the Word of God for 1260 days or equivocally 1260 years. The witnesses being slain and their bodies displayed in the street speaks when the bible was desecrated and debased by the beast, the beast represents government or the governing power of a collective mass of people.

Indeed there was a time in history that the bible was outlawed by the government of a major western power for three and a half years (three and a half days) and when the time had finished a tumultuous period began that rocked the very seat of power that had ran the government.

Any good student of history would be able to guess this historical event.

Hey my dear brother HB. No man.How can you write this? This must be the worst post you have ever written . Its falling apart at the seams, no bro, no go.
But I still love you. Get some Word into it
love C

I appreciate your love C, and I love you in return. As for what I wrote, it's what I believe.

The two witnesses are Spirits that does the work of the Lord. They have done this work for many centuries.

Everything is spiritual and they all have a purpose for God's plan. For example there's a spirit for the beast that is described in Revelation, and there is a spirit for the false prophet also described in Revelation. Both these spirits will be cast into the lake of fire. There is a spirit of the anti-christ and this spirit to will be destroyed by the Lord.

The two witnesses are spirits that worked to spread the gospel based on the Old and New Testament. Why do you think they are called witnesses? They witness the Word of God and the message of Christ and the Good News of the Gospel based upon the bible.

Many might say "Oh Paul did that" or "the disciples did that." But God makes all matter and means by the instruments he had created and he had made these two witnesses as Spirits to carry forth his work. Man is the means of conveyance that God's work manifests.

With this I cannot ever claim that my wisdom, or insights then are my own, but are inspired by Christ, by His Holy Spirit. I thank the Lord for the angel or angels(?) he sends that guides me though I am spiritually deaf and blind. This happens by his Word that God speaks and it happens. God being the author and finisher of my faith has already written out the pages of my life before I have even experienced it, and I just go along with it. "Figuring" it out is a matter that only God himself will either reveal or deny to anyone that God himself chooses, and I certainly don't know who God chooses or deny in the understanding of all things.

But I do understand the Word of God is not a formula, and for a person it's not a training seminar, it's not a matter of developing skills nor is it a matter of age, nor a matter of my works. That was so aptly shown when Abel's offering was accepted and Cain's offering was rejected.

C, I am not expecting that anyone here understand this, I have a hard time with it too, but I am obedient to Christ, for I understand what he says of me is his commandment, that is His Word. This is with all things. If Christ says I will deny him three times before the cock crows why should I argue with him? Rather, I would appeal to him by saying "Lord, say that I will accept you three times in each instance" and should the Lord say as such I would be blessed because I would!

Jesus "Do you love me?"
Bob "Yea, I do for it is your Word"
Jesus "Then feed my sheep"
Bob "As you say it and it will happen for it is your Word."

So, I believe as I believe for the Lord has said it as such, and if it be a delusion I still trust Christ in that my arrogance will not protest but is bowed low before the King of kings.

with Love HB

Now that's a good post

Well HB, if they are people operating in a certain spirit, and I understand you correctly, then by Whose Spirit will they testify(witness).
Second question: By Who's Spirit do you testify?(witness)

C

Brother C, I will tell you of my experience and how I believe it relates to this. When I first heard the Gospel of Christ with a friend of mine three were in our midst, though at the time I thought we were the only two; me and my friend. But God is always the third being in the midst when the Gospel of Christ is being ministered to another who does not know Christ.

When I read the Bible as a new Christian, the witness of these books, the two witnesses, speak to my spirit, even though I was not aware that they are there.

Anyone who reads the Bible with earnest love for Christ there the witness stand to minister the testimony of Christ and that the believer is swooned into God's love.

But these witnesses do have the power to shut up the sky and cause drought, as they have done so in the past with men who sought their own devices to make what they willed with the Bible. That men had took the teachings of the Bible to further their own cause. The drought that the witnesses brought is to shut up the understanding of the Gospel, to close up the truth from the hearts of dishonest men.

And there was a time when the spirit of the beast did rise and slayed the two witnesses. The spirit of the beast rule men so that men believe they can form a government to represent the will of the people, and the will of the people was to ban the Old and New Testament of the Bible. The will of the people did this in a place that is symbolically Sodom and Egypt and for three and a half years the Bible was scorned and accousted. Here is a historic excerpt that testifies the death of the beloved two witnesses.



three and a half years later the witnesses came to life and were called up to heaven where today they are under God's good protection to continue his work. And when this had happened long ago there came a great and mighty earthquake, it was the French Revolution.

These are historic accounts that has vaildated the prophecy of Revelation, and there is still but a few prophecies left to come to past and complete God's work...there is so little time left.


...I believe I witness by the Holy Spirit of God

AH HB, I do see your point and a valid and true one it is too ! You are indeed correct that these are Two Witnesses. You will also find Two Witnesses coming down the mountain with Moses (being broken at first and then "resurrected" by God the second time) I will check up on this statement, but I am 99% sure that the tablets of stone in fact are called Witnesses in Hebrew, but do not stone me if I am wrong (no pun intended)

We have as you say, the OT and NT, which also display very graphically the Two Witnesses as you have shown.Something to maybe add is to think about the relevance of OT representing Israel and NT representing the Church of Jesus.
The there are the disciples that went Witnessing Two, by Two. We also have Two Witnesses on the road that meets up with the resurrected Jesus.......
I am running late .I am on my way to our home church

speak again later
C

C said..The there are the disciples that went Witnessing Two, by Two...

as did the animals entering Noah's ark...two by two

It is interesting to do a study on "two". The shadows of the witnesses are shown a few times in the Word.

Deu 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Interesting: by the mouth of two witnesses shall a man for any iniquity: Man of iniquity? So the Man of Iniquity shall be put to death by the mouth of the two witnesses.

we all die a slow death...The LORD QUICKENS Us.

God be with us and comfort us, through many trials that come our way...We know LORD that you will not forsake us or leave us.
Heavenly Father full of grace and truth, let thy kingdom reign within us forever...even though we are trodden down, and forsaken by the WORLD that cannot see the LIGHT of the HOLY GHOST within us, we know Dear Jesus that someday every knee will bow down to YOU ALONE, for you are our HOLY FATHER, we yearn for your appearing, and yet you tell us be patient...whatever doesn't KILL us makes us stronger.
You work best in our weaknesses, let not our spirits cry for we yearn for your appearing, for the lost let us be your Light and for the weary refresh our spirit.
The Holy Spirit is upon us, to preach the GOOD news, That Christ Jesus reigns forever and ever.
This world can kill the body but not the spirit...Give us peace Jesus in every word we speak and every move we make...let us look to you in all things and seek your face.
Many Blessings to all this day...children we are, at the foot of Cross LORD Jesus we yearn.

pencil sharpened...by two...the sharpener and the pencil.
Lord you are the sharpener and we give you PRAISE!!!