Could preterists be stopping short, and 7-year tribulationists be going too far? I wonder? According to Skolfield, both theories were originated by Jesuits trying to keep an audience.

(From a footnote in "An End-Time Myth" by Ellis Skolfield)
"8 The futurist view, contrived by the Jesuit priest Ribera in 1591AD, was the
foundation for Lacunza's 'tribulation' musings. Ribera theorized a future
antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a Jewish temple in Jerusalem at the end of this
age. The Praeterist view, conceived by the Jesuit priest Alcaqzar in 1614AD,
claimed just the opposite - that the book of Revelation was fulfilled by the fall of
Jerusalem in 70AD. Both views were in opposition to the linear historic view that
until then had been the generally accepted position of the true church. Those two
innovative Jesuit positions succeeded in excluding fifteen centuries of unsavory
Roman Church history from the scrutiny the Bible prophecies that showed the
Roman Church hierarchy to be at least one face of Rev 17's 'whore of Babylon.'
For documentation, read Michael de Semlyen, All Roads Lead To Rome? (Gerrards
Cross, Bucks, UK, Dorchester House Publications, 1991) p. 202."

I would sincerely listen to any and all comments from those that take time to read The False Prophet by Ellis Skolfield. He makes intensive use of the rules of hermeneutics in biblical interpretation, with a logical thought progression that actually addresses Islam, Muhammad, The Dome of the Rock, etc. One would think with the great impact that each has had on Israel (and Christianity) over the last millenium and a half, that the Bible would say something about them. Well, according to Mr. Skolfield, it does.

BTW, this falls right in line with the timeline that Gavrial's 2300-day information has been stating.

Here is the link:

http://www.ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml

Does anyone really appreciate the number of changes that are likely to take place in our world over the next year and a half if the timeline being discussed is accurate?

Thanks.

In Christ,

Mike

QUOTE(bonomike @ Mar 5 2007, 05:34 PM) [snapback]104416[/snapback]

[/b]

Actually, Mike, the preterist view was "contrived" by Jesus Himself and the inspired writers:

"This generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place" (Matthew 24:34).
"There are some of those standing here who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING
in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28).
"Hereafter, YOU (Caiaphas and Sanhedrin) will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and
COMING on the clouds of heaven" (Matthew 26:64).
"Behold, I am COMING QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20).
"The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8).
"The end of ALL things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7).
"The kingdom of God is AT HAND" (Mark 1:15).
"THESE are the days of vengeance in order that ALL that is written may be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22).
"The Lord is NEAR" (Phil. 4:5).
"For yet a LITTLE while, He who is COMING, will COME, and will NOT tarry" (Heb. 10:37).
". . . to show His bond-servants the things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 1:1; 22:6).
"Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is NEAR" (Rev. 22:10).

No Jesuit "came up" with preterism--He got it from JESUS and the inspired writers!

Preterist

No offense bonomike, but I already see where this thread is headed...



P.S. nevertheless, I tend to agree with your point of view...(though we may have some unforseeable differences of opinion)

So that's it then?

Of my two replies so far, I'm not getting the feeling that anyone is willing to "test" their particular viewpoint with Skolfield's.

In fact, some assumptions have been made:

1. I don't know the scriptures that say things like "shortly," "soon", "this generation," etc.
2. That I'm trying to "push" a viewpoint--in this case, Skolfield's.
3. That my viewpoint IS that of Skolfield's.

The truth is, I can see merits in the preterist's view, the futurist's view, and the linear fulfillment (Skolfield's) view.

I MUST BE A JACK OF ALL END-TIME VIEWS! No...I just want the TRUTH.

What if the answer to the question, "which view is correct" is simply...yes?

How many "pictures" or "types" are in the Bible which illustrate the same thing? God has a way of repeating things over and over so that hopefully one of the lessons will actually be the one that "sticks" in an Earthly fool's brain, does he not?

Who are we to think that he's done anything less with the scriptures pertaining to end things?

Do the first 70 or so years of events in Israel and surrounding areas, after Christ's ascension, show fulfillment of all prophecies to a "T"?

With Scofield's analysis of history, seemingly matching the day/year time periods of scripture, answer all prophetic questions?

Does the futurist's view, with rapture (pre/mid/post), tribulation, second coming, antichrist, and false prophet, provide answers to all the prophetic questions?

What did our teachers in school say about sentences with the word "all" in them, particularly in multiple-choice questions? My, how we forget.

Does anyone really think God is going to allow any of us to really get the picture, so long as we're content with a disjointed, disfunctional, ununified body? Maybe we should argue about which of us will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? (And we have the audacity to laugh at Jesus' disciples, who did just that. We are no better.)

I am certainly no proponent of ecumenism--checking doctrines at the door. There should, of course, be a unity on the foremost pillars of the faith, i.e. virgin birth, Jesus' sinless life, Jesus' death on cross and resurrection, blood atonement for sin, faith, grace,...you know...but when it comes to the understanding of prophecy and end things, surely we can come to a consensus, but it's likely going to take the whole body, fitly joined and functioning together. Am I right?

But we won't know, if we don't discuss.

Proverbs 11:14
Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.
Proverbs 24:6
For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.

I'm appealling to the "multitude of cousellors" for a good discussion. Is there anyone out there willing to give me an honest opinion pertaining to the question I've asked in this thread, or am I all alone in my quest for truth?

In Christ,

Mike

Sorry Mike, I did not mean to come across the way I did. I've just seen these type of threads turn into shouting matches where one doctrine is shouted above another and no one listens to what the other opinion is. I've tried to steer clear of those types of general discussions.



I believe whatever doctrine on end times prevails, the more simple test should be how one conducts him/herself in living his/her life, which I am certainly of no expert opinion. The greatest in the kingdom will be the servant. I think however one wishes to look at prophetic events in future tense, present tense, or past tense, if the goal is not repentence, love, and mercy, then it is worthless to even consider it. I don't know when and how things will transpire, but one thing is sure...if we are not found working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, we will not escape God's judgment whether in this lifetime or the next. Sorry for generalizing so much and not using scripture to back it up.

I am completely with you on all of that. May we work while we are still in the "day."

Yours in Christ,

Mike

Amen.



I wonder if it is possible to take a step back and look at all of the varying beliefs on eschatology and see if somehow the beliefs themselves fit into the whole scheme of how things will transpire. There is a verse that says those who work iniquity actually believe they are doing God's will (I can't remember the verse right now) but it's a scary thought. Jesus tells some of those who come and say "Lord Lord" at the end (of their life? or end of the age?) He says "Depart from me you that work iniquity. I never knew you"



So we should be very careful not to be part of that crowd.

i wish i would have said that...mmddll, that is awesome...and a blessing.

we will be in this in a matter of moments...and no one will be debating what ism is in...
in the hour of the Lord...we will all weep...then joy cometh in the morning...

i appreciate your earnestness...but, get out of your head...trip...ya all...read the word.
and if you haven't asked Jesus in to sit on the throne...then do it now...things will change,
view points will change, perspectives will change...and then like all, we look through
a glass darkly. Guess what...then we will see Him eye to eye...

blessings,
signet

Amen sister

one major problem i have with skolfields numbers is when he says that the 688 ad is not exact....look at the Bible, when he uses numbers, they are exact. Many times the scripture says "on that very day". Not within a yr or two but exact.

I think we all could argue all day about the 70th wk and other things like that. to me, the most important thing is the 7000 yrs of creation. the last 1000 being Jesus on Earth. (rest/sabath)

i have posted before, simple math using the Bible only, tells us that the yr 6000 is near.

I think Skolfield is quite mad. Not perhaps in the raving lunatic class but certainly in the mad professor class. He believes that the two witnesses are two churches and that one of the two witnesses is the Jews. He thinks that the dome on the rock is the abomination of desolation. Why bother wading through all of his convoluted year for a day calculations, some using the the Jewish 360 day year and some using the 365 day solar year, if he is going to come up with something as absurd as this. He states that the dome on the rock is in the area which was the court of the gentiles and that the Holy place was actually off to the side under another little dome.

How then does he reconcile
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Perhaps he did not read that passage. Or perhaps he read it and just ignored it so that he could advance an outlandish theory that would gather him a following. Please ignore these false prophecy teachers. Look honestly I wasted another hour of my valuable time on this skolfield tripe. I might as well go and watch TV. Why don't we all just stop trawling through the prophecy sites to get titillating secret knowledge and just start reading the Bible for ourselves. At least then we won't get ourselves led astray.

Skolfields teaching is not just a bit of harmful fun. It is monstrous because if we believe that the dome on the rock is the abomination of desolation then we will take no warning when the real abomination of desolation is set up IN THE HOLY PLACE. We will then be overrun as those Jews were back in 70AD.

Mind you the information that the dome on the rock stands in the court of the gentiles is very interesting. I will need to investigate this further. So perhaps my one hour reading skolfield was not entirely wasted.

QUOTE(excubitor @ Mar 6 2007, 05:00 PM) [snapback]104531[/snapback]

I think Skolfield is quite mad. Not perhaps in the raving lunatic class but certainly in the mad professor class. He believes that the two witnesses are two churches and that one of the two witnesses is the Jews. He thinks that the dome on the rock is the abomination of desolation. Why bother wading through all of his convoluted year for a day calculations, some using the the Jewish 360 day year and some using the 365 day solar year, if he is going to come up with something as absurd as this. He states that the dome on the rock is in the area which was the court of the gentiles and that the Holy place was actually off to the side under another little dome.

How then does he reconcile
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Perhaps he did not read that passage. Or perhaps he read it and just ignored it so that he could advance an outlandish theory that would gather him a following. Please ignore these false prophecy teachers. Look honestly I wasted another hour of my valuable time on this skolfield tripe. I might as well go and watch TV. Why don't we all just stop trawling through the prophecy sites to get titillating secret knowledge and just start reading the Bible for ourselves. At least then we won't get ourselves led astray.

Skolfields teaching is not just a bit of harmful fun. It is monstrous because if we believe that the dome on the rock is the abomination of desolation then we will take no warning when the real abomination of desolation is set up IN THE HOLY PLACE. We will then be overrun as those Jews were back in 70AD.

Mind you the information that the dome on the rock stands in the court of the gentiles is very interesting. I will need to investigate this further. So perhaps my one hour reading skolfield was not entirely wasted.

Excubitor: I agree with your assessment of Skolfield. I wonder, though, why you quote Matthew 24:15 and still believe that the abomination of desolation is yet future. Jesus clearly told His disciples: "When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ." Was there not just ONE abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet? If Jesus' disciples standing right there with Him were to see it (as Jesus clearly states), how can there yet be another?

Advocates of dual fulfillment promote such teachings because they have to. Their system requires another abomination of desolation. But is that what the Scriptures teach?

Preterist

Wow! This is actually taking a God-glorifying tone. Thanks for all of the replies.

With regard to Skolfield's Chapter 6 in The False Prophet, he calls the "two witnesses" Israel, and the Church, witnessing up until 1948 by his 1260 year calculations. I emailed Skolfield, given his definition of the witnesses, about what fire would proceed from their mouths to devour enemies who desire to hurt them, given that the church and Israel, by his definition, are the witnesses.

Revelation 11
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

He replied that it is the word of God coming forth from their mouths that "kills" enemies through bringing them to repentance and faith in Jesus. You know, the old man dies, and the new, born again man is brought to life.

Well, while that may hold some truth with regards to the testimonies of Christian believers, it wouldn't necessarily be true with regards to Israel. I suppose it could if one were to divide the church between believing Jews and believing Gentiles. However, I see no precedent in scripture for such a division in the body of Christ.

This seems to be one "hole" in Skolfield's explanations. It's a possible example of someone taking their doctrine and "forcing" scripture to fit. Unfortunately, a lot of people do this. The tighter people grip the scriptures to fit them in their own box of doctrines, the more the contradictory scriptures slip between their fingers.

Besides, didn't Jesus say to "love your enemies?"

Matthew 25
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

At this point, I'm thinking these two witnesses have a bit of a different mission.

Thanks again for the replies.

In Christ,

Mike

Preterist,

I've wrestled with the concept of a new temple myself. Actually, I'm not so sure God will allow the Jews to reconstruct a new temple. Oh, they may gather the stuff, rams, robes, etc., but it's really all for naught, now isn't it? Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin. He may very well stop their grand building program before it starts.

In any event, it's not going to be any sort of HOLY PLACE. Now, the Jews may call it that, but God desolated it for a reason, not to mention the splitting of the veil. In fact, in Revelation he mentions those that call themselves Jews, but are actually of the synagogue of Satan. That hits it rather bluntly IMO.

The temple of God is now our hearts with the Spirit of God indwelt, is it not? There are numerous passages in the N.T. that refer to us, the body of Christ, as the temple of God.

What if that which happened in the physical in 70 A.D. is a type of what will happen in the spiritual in our day. What if the collective group of apostate Christians whose God is really themselves, focusing more on how God can bless "me" through Earthly riches, etc., give a completely false view of Christ complete control of their "temples," thereby desolating them?

To make matters worse, what if they join with a governmental system which worships nationalism, and their own brand of religion, to betray, persecute, and kill the true church--putting to death the true "body of Christ" much in the same way Judas betrayed Christ into the hands of the Jews for death on the cross. That would give a whole new meaning to the term "son of perdition" wouldn't it?

The conjecture and debate will become clear, I suppose, as time passes.

In all, may the Lord Jesus be glorified.

In Him,

Mike

Mike, that's exactly how I see it. The antichrist (spirit) sets himself up in the "spiritual" temple. That completely explains "Mystery Babylon" as well. The "spiritual" Babylon and the "spiritual" temple are not the same thing as in physical Jerusalem or physical Babylon. Even the place where the two witnesses are killed is "allegorically" called Sodom and Egypt. Jesus wasn't killed in Sodom or Egypt, except spiritually. Just as Paul had said "These things are spiritually discerned"





Matthew 24, as I suggested in an earlier thread, was talking about at least two things: destruction of the temple and signs of the end. The question the disciples asked was a two-part question. We are told to "rightly divide" the word, which is not an easy task for any of us but is for the purpose of seeking and keeping us interested and hopefully we learn a few things along the way as we blindly feel our way through to the light. It is a narrow and treacherous path and a carnal mind (stumbling block) is going to periodically obstruct our view. The best we can do is "test the spirits" with the talents God gave us to use. Not everyone has the same gifts.

I firmly believe from the scriptures that there will be a literal antichrist invading Jerusalem and killing and destroying Jews, and setting up the abomination of desolation in the temple. However I also believe that the antichrist will have power that extends throughout the whole world and that he also abominates the spiritual temple of the church by completely corrupting Christianity with a powerful deception. I believe he will do this at the same time that he abominates the physical temple and the Holy place. His persecution of Christians will be worldwide at the same time as he destroys, ravishes and takes captive Jews from Jerusalem.

Therefore when we see Jerusalem surrounded by armies Zech 14 Luke 21 and the abomination of desolation being setup. I believe that we will be well served to flee to the mountains and wilderness areas where God will feed us Rev 12. If we remain in the mystery babylon of the world's cities and towns we will share in her plagues. Just like Lot's sons in law did. Therefore we must always be ready to leave our homes and everything which we trust in for security giving up everything, to trust in the providence of the Lord. "He who seeks to save his life will lose it and he who seeks to lose it will find it".

Those who do not leave will be betrayed, imprisoned and persecuted and most likely be killed. However in this they will be purified and will be gathered from their graves at the return of the Lord. Those who betray their brothers and take the mark of the beast will be thrown in the lake of fire.

I have also come to reject that the events in Matt 24 and equivalent passages in Luke and Mark do not ALL occur at the end times, and that these passages are a misch masch of some 70AD events and some end time events. Saying we need to split up the account is not properly dividing the word. It is carving up the word deciding for yourself which parts belong in 70 AD and which belong in the end times. All of Christs discourse is an account of end time events. The fact that some of it prompted Christians to flee from the Jerusalem before the destruction of the temple was no doubt part of his design. In fact the destruction of the temple is not even hinted at in Jesus' response, rather the reverse if anything, saying that abomination of desolation would be setup in the Holy Place.

The abomination of desolation was NEVER setup in the Holy Place in 70AD so this would not have served as a warning to Christians to flee.

I do believe on the basis of this that if a third temple is constructed, as I am almost certain it will. That it will be utterly destroyed by the fierceness of the Lord's coming who will utterly purge his holy hill with earthquake and fire, so that the millenial temple prophecied by Ezekiel can be built on sanctified ground.

Here is an excellent article on the subject which I can find little to disagree with. http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html

Amen to this.
Once we see that we are actaully in the New Testament , we can look at the shadows in the OT and learn.

The Preterist view is correct, but incorrect as far as that they say that it was the last time it happened.

The first fulfillment has happened already...that was the dress rehearsal for the last one.

For excample: we all know how many 666's are found when we go through history. We look at Hitler and Ceasar etc, but all are shadows for the last one.

The last one will contain the spirit of all these that came before. That is why the Bible use the Roman Empire and Babylon...they point to the "spirit" who has been driving these shadows. This same spirit will be driving the last tribulation. Ex: Roman eagle-Hitler eagle-USA eagle. What do these eagles have in common/...not just the eagle.........world rule.

What has Babylon stood for always: the place God's people went of they went left His Word.Also the place that does not serve God, its the place of Nebuchadnezzar, who became a beast for seven years
and ate grass ( all men are like grass)1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, .....

What is the meaning of a Harlot in the Bible? Its always in the OT a false religion. All who cling to religion and not the truth of the Word , will be part of the harlot.In the end, if you do not believe in, or have another gospel, how can you NOT be part of the Harlot?You are then part of her by default.
Same with Anti-Christ..a spirit that is driving ALL who is anti Christ. (that is after all what the words mean...to be anti Christ...I know many of them)

Son of perdition....those who walk like Judas. He is a son of perdition. He is a prophetic figure in the NT showing us what type of spirit to look out for in these days. What was his main concern:Always the money!
Never the Word/Jesus.

So there is a temple (us) and a Harlot/ False Prophet who is part of those who are anti Christ. There are many in the temple (the Bible calls them tares), they are the son of perdition, they are the ones who partake of the great falling away. They were never part of us.
Its too late here for me to carry on (I can hear the sighs of relief ) but, but I"LL BE BAAAAACK

next: what is the daily sacrifice that will stop......
C

just before I really go to bed ...this is interesting too:

Daniel 3:1
Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.The image was on the plain of Dura, which in Hebrew means “circle” and “dwelling,” symbolizing the “world” which has a gematria of 600. ...KosmoV (world) has the gematria 600. The kosmos is the sphere of man's works apart from God.
So 600
Then Height was threescore=60
And breadth =6
Thus 666= the whole statue= all the world kingdoms up to now...notice , it stands in the province of Babylon


zzzzzz C

Very interesting...going back a few years, notice that Noah was 600 years old when the flood came...Noah being the symbol for Christ and salvation

Yes, you are right. The ark's dimensions are 500 cubits by 300 cubits=800=8 the number of Jesus Christ.
He is the ark now::like in Psalm 91. If we are in the Word,we are safe.
The first time that the word "Word" gets mentioned in the Bible is in Genesis to Abraham: the WORD of the Lord appeared to Abraham in a vision and said: I will be a shield around you..............
So the very first revelation we have from God concerning the Word is that it is there to ultimately protect us.
I think that is so great!

You are right:Noah 600 years (after 6000 years) (as in the days of Noah) and then: it rained for : 12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. Ah...the 40...the time of testing, same as Israel in the desert, same as Jesus in the desert.
C
ps People think I am a little weird because I carry on about the Word all the time if you look at my posts I say it a lot. Its the WORD, its the Word its the Word=Jesus=God=our protection.Its our agape love to God if we do the Word. Its our eternal life only when we have it IN us and DO it.Its eating the passover Lamb, its eating the flesh of Jesus, its drinking His blood, without which we have NO part in Him .
Christian today have NO idea of the importance of the Word.
We have heard it all before, now we do not HEAR it anymore.
It is the best kept secret on Christianity!
Without it , the Word, we die.
Only with it in us ,,,we live

QUOTE

Excubitor: What is the abomination of desolation and when did it occur? Luke clearly describes it as the surrounding of Jerusalem by the Roman armies, does he not? And did not Jesus clearly say that His disciples standing there with Him would see it? Was it not the actual abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet? All of this is fully supported by Josephus who states that when the Christians saw the Roman armies they fled to the mountains--just as Jesus had warned them to do in Matthew 24:15f.

Furthermore, where does it plainly say that "Antichrist" will set himself up in the physical temple in Jerusalem? 1 Thessalonians 2:4?

First of all, what is the context of 1 Thessalonians and who are the recipients of it and the participants in the things related there by Paul? The purpose for Paul writing to those first-century saints at Thessalonica is found in 1:4-7. He was encouraging THEM in THEIR very real "persecutions and tribulations" that THEY were at that time enduring. While Christians have suffered from time to time throughout history up to and including our present day, THEY are not the participants in the time of persecutions which Paul was addressing! Paul furthers encouraged those first-century, pre-AD 70 saints by pointing out to them that God would take care of those who horribly persecuted them--God would "repay with tribulation those who trouble YOU" (those first-century believers). God would also "give YOU (those first-century believers) rest with us (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ."

This coming with the angels is seen in Matthew 16:27, the timing of which is clarified by the fact stated in verse 28--some of those standing right there with Him would live to see it. It is also in view in Matthew 24:30, 31--the timing again clearly confined to the "this generation" of verse 34.

Again, looking closely at 2 Thessalonians 2 we see the expression "OUR gathering together to Him." Paul is speaking of himself and those Thessalonian believers to whom he is writing and by extension all believers of that time. Clearly, he is speaking directly to them and exhorting them not "to be shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter." It was they (those particular first-century Thessalonians) who were not to be deceived. Paul had told them these things before when he was still with them. THEY knew who was restraining--it was someone or something in their day! In spite of it all, they were to "stand fast."

I believe there is much confusion in the interpretation of verse 4 that has led to the wrong teaching that an "Antichrist" must sit in the temple and be worshipped. Because this has not yet happened, those of this persuasion contend that it must still be future. But is that what verse 4 is saying?

What do we know from these verses about this man? He is a man of sin. He would be revealed in his own time--a time in which he was then being restrained and the Thessalonians knew what restrained him. He opposed and exalted himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped. If we would look for a contemporary of that day, Nero clearly fits the bill! But here is the key question. What temple is being spoken of, keeping in mind that not every mention of a temple is the physical Jewish temple? Consider Psalm 11:4 and Habakkuk 2:20--

The Lord is in His holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven. (Psalm 11:4)
But the Lord is in His holy temple. Let all the earth keep silence before Him. (Hab. 2:20)

In light of this, how can 2 Thessalonians 2:4 be interpreted? Is it not possible that the verse is saying that this "son of perdition" who exalted himself above all that is called God (as Nero did by demanding worship) sat on his own earthly, kingly throne in the same manner AS God sits in HIS temple in heaven and thus made himself to be GOD? There is nothing in this verse that demands that this "temple of God" be a physical Jewish temple as many contend.

The context of 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians clearly relates to the perilous times in which Paul and those first-century saints lived. Paul gave those actual first-century Thessalonians this comfort: "WE who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord." THEY were to be comforted by these words which Paul spoke to them.

Furthermore, Paul reminds them that THEY are "not in darkness" (1 Thes. 5:4) that the day of the Lord should overtake THEM. They were to watch for it. Why? Because it was to come many, many years in the future? No. Because it was an actual reality for them. Paul closes his first letter in a way that justifies this understanding--"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may YOUR (the Thessalonians and by extension all those believers of that day) whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Preterist

Preterist,

Who do you think the below passage in bold is referring to? Is it something to be fulfilled, or merely "speculation" on Jesus' part? (I'm actually not so sure Jesus "speculated" about anything.)

John 5
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

Thanks.

In Christ,

Mike

There is no question that Jesus was being ambiguous when he answered the disciples twofold question "when will the destruction of the temple be" and "what will be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age".
It is clear that in his discourse Christ described Jerusalem being surrounded by armies AND the abomination of desolation being set up in the holy place where it should not be. Luke recorded one aspect of the discourse and Mark and Matthew recorded the other. Now Christ may have been explaining that these were the SAME thing or he may have been describing seperate events. We really have no way of knowing except by comparing it with other prophecies in the Bible which describe and actual erection of an abominable thing in the sanctuary. I'll get to that later. In fact we know what an abomination of desolation is because Antiochus Ephiphenes did it. Setting up a profane image and sacrificing pigs and "I think" Jews upon the altar of God and slaughtering the people of God including the priests and even the High Priest Onias.

Whereas armies have surrounded Jerusalem many times and it was never considered an abomination of desolation. For example when the Babylonians surrounded Jerusalem and destroyed the first temple and carried off the Jews into captivity, was it described in any place by any person as an "abomination of desolation?" No. So why therefore would the very same event repeated in 70 AD be considered the abomination of desolation?

So Christ was actually killing two birds with one stone here. By answering the question of the "signs of thy coming and the end of the age" he also provided an adequate answer to warn of the destruction of the temple. When the Christians saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem it was an adequate warning to get out of Jerusalem in a hurry and so many Christians were saved.

Now the peculiar thing of the yet future event which has never occurred at any time during history is that Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies AND the abomination of desolation will be set up in the holy place.


Well there is a lot of spiritualised fluff in all of this and a desperate squeezing of scripture into a preconceived belief system. First of all the pages of history are utterly bustling with demigods who set themselves up as God'. In fact a great many Roman emporers did so. Nero was in no way peculiar in that respect. Also it talks about the son of pedition being revealed. This insists that at one point the son of perdition was concealed. When was Nero ever concealed or hidden?

The passage indicates that the "son of perdition", "man of sin" operates behind the scenes building up his power and influence before revealing himself. This indicates that he is not born into his position but wiggles his way into it through intrigue, flattery and manipulation. Also the passage explains that there is a force preventing or hindering the rise of the antichrist. This means that he is from a society or order or ideology which has existed for some time and which has never been allowed to break out into absolute domination, the force or restrainer must be removed before the society/order/idealogy can reach domination. This does not fit Nero because he was born into a long dynasty of openly dominant caesers. Also most obviously the antichrist must be destroyed by Jesus Christ when he comes with a very bright coming. Can you please show me in history how a bright coming of Jesus came to destroy Nero? This is why preterists must claim that Jesus Christ has already returned in direct defiance of Matt 24 which alerts us that such teaching is a vile deception. "23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not." and "26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

So now we have two very dominant and wicked heresies in the world today. Full Preterism which claims that Jesus has already returned and PreTrib rapture which claims that Christ comes in secret to whisk away his people. The plain rendering of the scripture is that Jesus return will be very bright and seen by the entire world and by all the tribes. As we see here in 2 Thess, this bright event precedes the destruction of the "son of perdition". We also know that the bright return of Christ is immediately preceded by the dramatic signs and wonders in the sky of the sun and moon becoming blood and stars falling from heaven etc. Did this happen prior to the death of Nero? In fact no it did not. Did Jesus destroy Nero? No he did not. Nero committed suicide in 68AD.

So anyway you get the point Nero could not be the "man of sin" because he
1. WAS NOT destroyed by the second coming of Jesus but by his own suicide.
2. Christians WERE NOT gathered together after his death.
3. WAS NOT preceded by a massive falling away from the faith
4. WAS NOT concealed at any time
5. WAS NOT at any time revealed afterwards by removal of a hinderer.
6. NEVER exalted himself above all Gods even though he may have considered himself A god.
7. NEVER put himself in opposition to God or the gods.
8. NEVER sat in God's temple either Herod's temple or the Christian church
9. NEVER performed lying signs and wonders
10. NEVER spoke an incredible unprecedented lie that required a strong delusion to believe

Incidentally Paul deliberately states that the event of Jesus Coming and the gathers WAS NOT AT HAND verse 2. Nero clearly was at hand at the time of Paul. (This should be a lesson for imminency pretrib believers too)

Your manipulation of the scripture is appalling. When discussing this scripture
1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [4] them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort [5] one another with these words.

you implied that this event occurred in Paul's time. You also claimed that the passages in Matt 16 and 1 Thess 5 which refer to the same event happened in Paul's time.
You said the coming of the Lord Jesus was not a far off future event but that it occurred in actual reality in their day.


Let me alert the readers of the disgraceful thing which you have done here. You have denied that the coming of the Lord is a future event. You have claimed that Jesus returned in Pauls time. This is a denial of the Christian faith. It is a damnable heresy which was combatted from long ages to long ages by the saints who swore the creeds.
Nicene Creed "And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end." "And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come"

Apostles Creed "He ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead". "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

Athanasian Creed "From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

Westminster Confession "II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed: and all the dead shall be raised up with the self-same bodies, and none other, although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever. III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by his Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to his own glorious body.
III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly. Amen.

By saying that the people in Pauls day were comforted by a return of Jesus in Pauls day leaves US WITH NO COMFORT AND NO HOPE in a future resurrection and return of Christ and presumably no fear of judgement which we know also occurs at the coming of our Lord. Such a notion is anathema and a great mischief upon the body of Christ in particular those new Christians who may be led astray by such notions.

So whilst I acknowledge that you have taught me some things, I cannot consider you a brother or sister in Christ because you do not share the fundamental beliefs of the Christian faith and instead proliferate false teachings. I therefore pronounce your teachings as heretical by the authority of the witness of all the Saints held in unity throughout all Christian ages.

I urge you with the utmost of urgency, to renounce your false teachings and in the presence of all these people in this forum to recant and return to the fundamental tenets of the faith as outlined in the creeds which are true and accurate representations of the Holy Scriptures.

That's all hog wash bonomike.
Daniel told us of the great tribulation just before the end of the world and Matthew's witness confirms that it had not come yet. And then there is the fact that all of the people on earth have not seen Him and His army coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He has not sent out His messengers to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness. Plus all who pervert His gospel have not been cast into outer darkness yet but get ready it's coming in the near future.

Daniel 12
1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Matthew 24
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

If I understand fully, I will have to say "AMEN!" to Excubitor's last post #23

P.S. Godsloft, did you mean to address Preterist instead of Bonomike? What is hogwash? Just wondering what you were addressing.

The coming of the Lord and His army of Saints

Joel 2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

I think Psalm 91 can be paralleled with Joel 2...who can abide it?

No doubt there is a period of tribulation, such as the verses you mention state. However, it may be possible that some of Skolfield's time-period finds may be picture "types" of tribulation events.

In Christ,

Mike

Somehow Pretists get stuck at one fulfillment and cannot see past it. Although its true, the scriptures also point to further evens. Why can't they see it? I see the past fulfillment and I see the one coming in Scripture, one does not fight with the other.
C

QUOTE

Yes, one does fight with the other. How many abominations spoken of by Daniel the prophet were there? Where is anyone but those very disciples with Jesus promised the things in the details He promised them? Why is there a necessity for another event, C? Why can't futurists see that Jesus promised the events of Matthew 10 and 24 to His first-century disciples? THEY were to hear of wars and rumors of wars. THEY were to be killed. THEY were to be hated. THEY were to see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. And THEN the end would come! When? "THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." I know you get as tired of reading that verse as I sometimes get of quoting it. But I will not stop quoting it until it is taken in its simple, normal, usual, common, and ordinary sense--as it is understood EVERYWHERE else it is used in the NT Scriptures.

Postponement theories and dual fulfillments theories were fabricated to accommodate the futurists' refusal to accept that which has clearly been fulfilled.

"The end of ALL things is AT HAND."
"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND."

John was shown those things which were to happen SHORTLY--in his day--because the time was THEN near.
Did not Jesus clearly say, "BEHOLD, I am COMING QUICKLY!"

Preterist

It is all still here Russ.
The wars the rumors of war, everything.
The beasts of the earth have only grown stronger with their evil inventions.
Christ did not come riding on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory for all to see.
Everything is a type and you are one of them. The type that is always learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. You can't even hear it when it is told to you. Maybe if you were to see the power of God displayed you would change your mind but not even that is for certain. The pharisees saw and they only got more vile.
So the most that you can hope for with the preterist doctrine is to capture one or two of the people that missed out on the Jim Jones event or the David Coresh episode.
Now all you get is the witness of Jonah saying repent for yet a little while and the Lord is going to destroy this world and all that man has created and those who fight against it's destruction.
Maybe if you study the elementary principals of Christ being

1. repentance from dead works
2. faith toward God
3. the doctrine of baptisms
4. the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead
5. the doctrine of the laying on of hands
6. the doctrine of eternal judgment

No one is saved without understanding and practicing these principals of Christ's Gospel.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.