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Hello, my name is Wendy and I have a long fascination with the subject of Prophecy, especially in regard to Revealation. First, I must remind everyone that all Prophecy points to the Spirit of Jesus Christ. With that in mind, I was wondering if anyone ever noticed that the 4 colors of the horses, white, red, black and green are often found on most Islamic country's flags, especially on Palestine's flag. White representing the false religion of Islam (deception), Red representing their warlike nature (Sin), Black representing their suicide bombings and its economic recuperessions (judgement) and Green representing their hatred/jealously of Israel (Death). The Bible does suggests to me that Armageddon will begin as a regional conflict between Israel and Palestine, which will eventually engulfs the entire world. This may be a very simplistic intrepretation, of which I do acknowlegde as such, but sometimes by keeping them simple can go a long way.

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

Could you give us a link to view these flags?

Here's one link:

http://www.wave.net/upg/immigration/flags.html

I find it interesting that all this talk about Iraq, even Iraq has all four colors in its flag. Most Islamic countries have at least two of the colors mentioned plus perhaps a different color. Anyways, I'm working on a study on the White horse and it'll be done shortly, Lord's willing.

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

Brilliant.

Slightly off topic on this reply (sorry). But most people I speak to talk about the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse / 4 horsement of Revelation. Why does everyone forget Jesus who is the 5th horseman?

God first

Hi Wendy

I may of missed somthing but I could not find a green horse in Revelations can you point me to it

But I do like thinking about flags and looking for meaning in them since God wrote his word in colors alone with other things

the eye see's in three basic colors and the mixing of these made all the shades of these three

green, red, and blue which are the pure colors and all others are mixers of the three

Now painting and printing began with a base color of red, yellow, and green

But there is alot to learn by colors

The green grass reminds us of life while brown grass reminds us of death

thanks for getting me thinking

with love Roy

Greetings:

Sorry in getting back to you so late. I apologize for that. You're quite correct that the bible did not SPECIFICIALLY states that the last horse was a green one per se, actually it uses a word pale instead to describe the last horse. Upon checking my Strong's concordance for the Greek lexicon, the word pale is from the greek word, chloros, which can mean either pale or greenish. I hope this helps you.

On the subject of horses, I'm still stuck on the white horse. But as I reading carefully in the passage, if you read from the beginning of Chapter 6, it states clearly "I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. (Rev. 6:1-2 NIV) This got me wondering, okay, who is this living creature that told the horse to "Come!" One has to read Rev. 4:7 to find out "The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had the face of a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle." Okay, then in conclusion, it was the living creature that look like a lion that told the white horse to come forth. So now what exactly does this mean? It has been said somewhere that these living creatures personifies the 4 gospels of the New Testament. The Gospel of Matthew was like a lion in that Matthew mainly portrays and emphasizes Jesus as a loyal Jew, an descendant of David, thus He is the "Lion of Judah". The Gospel of Mark was like an ox in that Mark mainly portrays and emphasizes Jesus as a hard worker, doing miracles, etc., The Gospel of Luke was like a man since it mainly emphasizes Jesus's humanity, the Son of Man. The Gospel of John was like a flying eagle since its mainly emphasizes Jesus's divinity and spirituality, "In the beginning there was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1:1. Since I'm on the White horse, let's concentrate on the Lion aspect for now. Obviously the rider will be one of power and/or is of royal descent or at least pretends to be of royal descent. Remember, Islam is an religion of pretensions, conceived by a man with delusions, Mohammad who claimed that he is a prophet of God, the same God that the Jews and Christians worshipped, which is completely false. Ishamael is the first-born son of Abraham but not of his wife, instead of Sarah's maidservant, Hagar. Therefore he's not the legal heir to the Promise made by God to Abraham. Ishamael is the forefather of the Arabs. Sarah eventually did conceived a son, Isaac, of whom is the rightful heir to the Promise. Isaac is the forefather of the Jews. Many Arabs today claimed that the Land, of which is now and forever will be, that Israel consists of is rightfully theirs since "time immemorial" (another neat pretenstions of theirs) and try to deceive the world that it is actually Palestine. This is LIES. For the sake of God's glory and not for the Israelites which are a stubborn and stiff-necked people and not because they deserve it either, but for God's own glory and righteousness and for HIS name's sake, He will fulfilled His Promise to Abraham, to his son, Isaac, to his son, Jacob, to his twelve sons, that He will COMPLETELY give the land of which He has so long ago promised to Abraham, from the river Nile to the river Euphrates, not on that tiny sliver piece of land that is now known as Israel of which the Palestinatians are crying about. Why am I saying all this? It's because lions are a territorial creature and do feriously defend its territory from any detractors that dares to enters it. Ulitmately what this conflict between the Jews and the Arabs boils down to is INHERITANCE OF THE LAND. While the Israelites are no saints, either are the Arabs. As I already stated before, I believe that White in this context is representing the false religion of Islam, a "conqueror" bent on "conquest" to subjected the world to its submission by force. It is in their Koran that the Jews/Christians are to wiped out. Interesting tidbit here to chew on. Islam didn't come about til sometimes in the 600's. The 4 horses of Revealation are found in Chapter 6. Just a tidbit. Anyone here want to correct me or have another intrepretation, please feel free to express it. Thank you

In Peace

Wendy

Fascinating Wendy , and very brave to take on Revelation .

I think the association of the first horse with Islam may well be right .

Galatians 4 is interesting in regards to Islam .
It talks about sonship and servantship .

We are free , and the children of the Old Covenant , the Jews , are in bondage .
However , the children of Ishmael , the children of the flesh , are also in bondage .

These things are as allegories , i.e. Islam is a massive allegorical mirror to the Jews showing them their own state of bondage . Not just allegorical , the state of Israel is knotted around by Islam , keeping them in geopolitical bondage .

Now , I disagree with those who say Allah is not the God of Israel . The Qu'oran has as one of its central figures Moses , ( along with all the other prophets ) . It is a biblically based book - in the same way that many other errant belief systems derive from Christianity . It rigorously objects to worshipping false gods and idols . It is too easy to characterize Islam as just a moon-God religion .
Anyhow , I am not making excuses , all I am leading to is this , who do you think Moses and Elijah , the two witnesses of Jerusalem , will witness too ? Jews ? or Jews and Moslems ?

As per my teachers:
Allah had no sons, but he had 3 (I think it was 3) daughters. Fatima is his favorite daughter. The village of Fatima, Portugal was named after Allah's favorite daughter, back when Portugal was under Moslem control. Now, Fatima is a Roman Catholic area. Fatima was the site of a FAMOUS apparition of demons masquerading as "Mary and Jesus". Mary contradicted the Bible, and Jesus was a little toddler beside an adult Mary. See "Our Lady of Fatima". Our current Pope has a special love for Our Lady of Fatima.

All of the great Cathedrals in Europe were built to honor Mary, not Jesus. In the stained glass windows of the cathedrals, it pictures an adult Mary with no Jesus (or a toddler Jesus). The caption in the stained glass (at the bottom of the window) says (in Latin) "O Mary, save us!". Below that, the heads of the multitudes are shown, looking up to Mary.

The European Catholics love Mary 100 times more than they love Jesus. They built 100 times more shrines to Mary than Jesus. They say 100 times more prayers to Mary than Jesus. The Bible says that Jesus said "If you love anyone more than you love Me, then you're not worthy of Me."

In the recent "Marian Year" (they were celebrating Mary), the Pope prayed a public prayer "O Mary, I'm all yours. Into your hands, I entrust my salvation". The Pope is not born again. He's not regenerated. He's not a Christian. He's selling for money a false salvation which will not save anyone. The Pope needs to repent and believe the Gospel. Most Catholics know very little about the Bible. They know what the Catholic Church has taught them, which is not Bible.

When the printing press was invented 500 (?) years ago, all the printing presses in Europe were working non-stop, day and night, printing Bibles. PTL! PTL! Except one, the Vatican Press, which was printing every kind of publication, except the Bible. The Catholics killed and persecuted all distributors and translators of the Bible. They burned many, many Bibles so that no-one but the Catholic clergy would know what the Bible said. The Catholic Bibles were printed in the dead language of Latin, so that most people could not read it. The Catholic Church is the Bible-burning church, and the Bible-translator-burning church. But, if they will repent and believe the gospel, our Lord will forgive them (and us).

Some people believe that Mohammed received a revelation from an "angel" (Mohammed didn't make up the Islam religion himself. Islam was taught to Mohammed by super-natural means), but the angel was NOT from God. The angel was from Satan. The angel claimed that he was from God. Mohammed was tricked by the Deceiver.
Same thing for the founder of the Mormon Church. And some other religions. For instance, Shirley MacLaine and many others have had contact with "spirit guides", the spirit world, certain "deceased persons" (which were really spirits masquerading as deceased persons), ETs, etc. One famous "personality", channeled from the spirit world, called himself "Lazarus". Shamans, medecine men, witch doctors, etc often obtain help from channelled spirits from the spirit world (for healings, info, prophecies, strength, etc)

How much has the Catholic Church (and others) been influenced and led by contact with the spirit world (Satan and his angels)? I don't know. But, in my mind, it's entirely possible.


The Heavenly Father (of Bible fame) had "His only begotten Son (Jesus)" (John 3:16), and no daughters. Allah had no sons, and 3 daughters.

The "Jesus" of the Roman Catholic Church is not the same person as Jesus of the Bible.
The Bible's Jesus:
Jesus' death was perfect, complete, one-time, final, fully effective (efficacious). Not to be repeated. Nothing can be added to it, to make it more complete.

The Catholic Jesus:
His sacrifice on the cross apparrently was not fully effective, unless you add something to it. God entrusted to the Catholic Church a "treasury". All of the good works, sacrifices, and sufferings of Jesus, Mary, the apostles, and Saints (a few special Catholics voted into Sainthood) are placed into the "treasury". From the treasury, the Catholic Church dispences little bits of God's Grace each day to Catholics. The Catholic must appear before a Catholic Priest and eat the Communion (Mass, the wafer, which is a re-sacrifice of the actual person and body of Jesus), in order to get enough grace to atone for today's sins. The Catholic has to come back to the Priest tomorrow for tomorrow's sins.

Moslems have a love for Mary. The Pope hopes to bring Moslems under his control (into the Catholic Church, or the Great Ecumenical end-time church), using Mary as bait.


dennis manning

Greetings, Dennis:

I do not wish to get off of the subject of the 4 horses of the Revealation, but your post really begs the question of what does Mary has to do with the 4 horses? Can you please clarify this? While I believe that you were trying to infer that Mary-worshipping is false (and it is), I must admit that I've never heard of Moslems worshipping Mary. Can you provide a link to this statement so I can check it out please? Also, can you back your statement up about the Vatican not pressing bibles, in fact as you stated, burned them and the persecution of the translators, distributors, the pressers of the bibles? While I"m no fan of the Vatican myself either, however, it would be extremely helpful if you could provide links and/or other literatures that can shed light upon these "facts" of yours. It would be greatly appreciated.

In Peace

Wendy

Jeremiah 7 verse 18 .

Mariolatry is there Wendy .

Jeremiah 6 verse 1 links to Amos ( the trumpet of Tekoa ) .


Jer 8:16 The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that dwell therein.























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I bought an audio CD (mp3 files) "Dave Hunt Audio Library" MP3, Second Edition Revised 9/03, from THE BEREAN CALL, PO BOX 7019, Bend Oregon, USA 97708-7019, 1-800-937-6638
www.thebereancall.org
It won't play on a regular CD player. It will play on a computer or MP3 player.

Dave sells books, tapes, booklets, CDs. He's on Christian Radio. I've not checked everything that he teaches, but, as far as I know, he has a lot to offer. I learned a lot from him. I recommend the above CD. It's $40.00. Actually, it's 3 CDs in a set.

Also, I thought that it was common knowledge that the Catholic Church persecuted and burned alive at the stake the protestants, reformers, Bible translators, distributors, Bible sellers, "heretics". I've read "Foxe's Book of Martyrs". It tells of the Catholic Church burning Christians alive at the stake. And pulling hooks thru their flesh, etc. All my life, I've heard from various sources that the Catholic Church murdered the protestants.

The Catholic Church did everything it could to prevent the Protestants from getting started. Eventually, the Catholic Church was forced by secular armies to stop murdering the saints. The Reformation (religious, Protestant) and the Renaisance (secular, artistic, scientific) followed. If the Pope had not been stopped with Military force, I suppose that the Pope would be murdering saints and burning Bibles today.


The Inquisition (Catholic persecuters and murderers of the saints) is proverbial. I guess you've heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

Dave Hunt said that the Moslems have a special love for Mary. I've never heard that they worship Mary.

I realize that some of my post had nothing to do with your topic. I'm very sorry.

dennis manning

Jer 7:18

Okay, now that was interesting for me to check out.

Thanks

Wendy

Shalom Wendy,

The four creatures in revelation are not the gospels of Matityahu etc. Torah will reveal the 4 creatures as they are the "flags" banners of the tribes of Israel.

In paires of 3 the tribes surround the mishkan (tabernacle) by the order of Adonai Himself. When studying the positions of the tribes you will find Yehudah (lion) at the east gate, the entrance into the Holy place. Yeshua comes from the tribe of Yehudah and as son of Yosef and will return as son of David. The levites surround the mishkan. The entrance consist of 4 pillars, Moshe, Aharon and his 2 sons. 4 is the Hebrew for " Door ". That is why Yeshua calls Himself the door through which we can enter into the holy place. and this goes on and on...

1) Lion-east-Yehudah, Issachar,Zebulon = Praise & worship
2) Man-south-Ruben, Simeon, Gad = Messiah
3) Ox-West-Efraim-Manasse-Benjamin= Virtility
4) Eagle-north-Dan, aser, naphtali = Judgement

Revelation becomes a understandable book if you study torah, after all it is G'ds revelation of heavenly things on earth to his people.

Ruben Look/see the son
Simeon listen to Him
Levi Hang on to Him
Juda thanking, praising
Issaschar He carries the reward
Zebulon He dwells amongst us
Jozef He will take away, He will increase
Benjamin right hand / right stands for the good
Dan Judgement, judge
Nafthali Battle
Gad Happiness, joyful
Aser richess, joy

The names in sequence may translate into: Look/See the Son, Listen to Him, Hang on to Him and thank Him, He will bring the reward, He dwells amongst us and will increase,The Son of His righthand, The judgement in battle That will bring hapiness richess and joy.

Torah means to aim at a goal. The "thelos" (endgoal and NOT the end) of the law is Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

G'ds torah and the renewed covenant (NT) are ONE, like G'd is ONE.
Find the secrets of torah and the prophets, and Yeshua will be revealed.

B'shalom
Y'hoshua

I don't think the horses are anything to do with the tribes . I think they represent movements , Islam , Communism , that sort of thing .

I have posted on Dan already - how long to wait ?

Israel is the vessel of Salvation of the world . But of the 12 tribes , Dan is absent .

I think Dan is associated with The Catholic Church . Traditionally , the AntiChrist was seen as coming from the tribe of Dan .

Here is something odd . Dan leaves his name everywhere (Sweden , Denmark , Danube etc) . Dan leaped from Bashan , the land of King Og . ...

....funny how there is a surname Ogden .

Greetings:

Now that's truly fascinating, Y'hoshua. I'm in agreement with Simplebaby that the horses has to do with movements, transportations as such. Horses in those days were either used by the military or by the elite/wealthy since horses was the status symbol such as an Lexus or an BMW or even an Humvee, for that matter, is today while the donkey would be like your lowly but dependable Camry or the likes. But I do like your presentation a lot and yes, we should well remember that the Torah and renewed Covenant is One. For I am a firm believer that Jesus didn't come to do away with the Law (the Torah) but to fulfill it.

I'm also in agreement with Simplebaby that in the final roll call of Israel's tribes, both Dan and Ephraim were not present. The final roll call is found in Rev. 7:5-8 in order it was written:

Judah
Reuben
Gad
Asher
Naphtali
Manasseh
Simeon
Levi
Issachar
Zebulun
Joseph
Benjamin

Anyone want to shed some light as to why the tribes of Dan and Ephraim were excluded from the final roll call of Israel.

In Peace

Wendy

Greetings:

I should note that both the tribes of Joseph and Levi, there were never any land assigned to them as Joseph receives a double portion through his sons, Ephraim and Manasseh and Levi's were the priests and serves in the Holy Temple. The tribe of Ephraim may be gone but can still be claimed through the tribe of Joseph. Still, I'd like some light to be shed on as to why both the tribes of Ephraim and Dan were excluded.

Wendy

According to the study notes in my Life Application Bible, Tyndale House Publishers, INC., Wheaton, Illinois:
New Living Translation, 1996 copyright

Rev 7:4-8
This is a symbolic listing of God's true followers.
Dan is not mentioned because it was known for rebellion and idolatry, traits un-acceptable for God's followers. (Genesis 49:17)
The 2 tribes representing Joseph (usually called Ephraim and Manasseh, after Joseph's sons) are here called Joseph and Manassah because of Ephraim's rebellion.

dennis manning

Actually this is a very serious subject , and apparently the early church was very clued up on - regarding the Tribe Of Dan as the the tribe out of which the AntiChrist would come .

I think it is Judges 18 that depicts the Idolatry of Dan . But as I have suggested , their idolatry may go way back before that . Don't forget the strange story of Rachel and her father's idols . She took them out of Syria when Jacob fled Laban , and hid them in her Camel Saddle . I assume she did this because she was cheesed off with the pernicious effects of these idols in Laban's life , and the tremendous problems he had caused Jacob and the wives . ( Laban was a real ....)
I can't help feeling that these idols somehow were appropriated by Dan .
And that also a faction of Danites escaped Egypt prior to the Exodus .

First stop in the story of Dan is Jacob's blessing :

Gen 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.
18 I have waited for thy salvation, O LORD.

People have written books about this blessing , so I don't know where to start with this . I guess first up , verse 18 , this directly relates to Revelation , and the exclusion of Dan from the list of 144, 000 . Dan has to wait , for some reason , for God's Salvation .
Verse 16 is most peculiar - ' as one of the tribes of Israel ' . Why state the obvious ? How could he judge Israel as not one of the tribes ? Maybe that is the implication here , that prior to being regathered into the House of Israel , he is egregious , out of the fold somehow , and may even Judge Israel in a Heathen capacity , think about it .( Incidentally Dan means Judge ) .
As for verse 17 , well , as I say , people have written books on this .
But my view , as I have stated elsewhere is that the Antichrist is prefigured in Solomon's cryptic reign and writings .

A good 'clue' is the word Chiydah , meaning dark sayings , riddles . The Antichrist will be a master of the Occult - head of the Freemasons ? Cabbalist in Chief ?

This Occult will be white , it really will look like something good (so that even the elect would be deceived ) . Be on your guard !!

Ok Last thought , very briefly , Samson ..............most famous Danite ever , when he pulled down the Temple of dagon , was like a snake pulling down the horse and rider maybe .

actually I think a lot of endtime study is in Solomon's writings .

Greetings:

I have been thinking about the horses all day today. It had occured to me that in order for the horses to be used or domesticated by the military and/or the elite, it has to be TRAINED in certain way to be used for that specific purpose. That does suggest to me it takes TIME to be trained. The horses certainly doesn't automatically became the way they will be used for they were born as wild creatures. I'm not sure where this is leading me toward to but I had thought that I'd shared this mulling with you all and see what kind of feedback on this particular train of thought.

A verse just came to me, it has something to do with Hagar running away from her mistress, Sarah, after Sarah had complained to Abraham about the fact that Hagar was being disrespecful toward her after Hagar had gotten pregnant with Abraham's child. The Lord had told Hagar to return to her mistress and submit to her, saying that He will also increase her descendants that they will be too numberous to count. Also the angel of the Lord had told her this: "You are now with child and you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Gen. 16:11-12 (NIV) In the light of today's situation in Iraq, that prophecy has come to pass, with the militant Iraqis kidnapping foreigners left and right, even if they are Muslims like themselves. God surely has forseen this day, that is without a doubt.

In Peace

Wendy

Num 12:3 (Now the man Moses [was] very meek, above all the men which [were] upon the face of the earth.)

RE Moses : -

Moses was meek , which means 'a wild stallion who has been trained' in Hebrew .

I hope my information is correct .

Dear Wendy:

I know it is very tempting to try to look at the 4 horsemen as identifying some islamic group, whether in flag or otherwise... To try to find symbolism outside the bible such as green "with envy".. wold be reading into texts that the bible did not define for you.
When the bible speaks of horsement, we see that God sends the 4 horsemen out himself in response to idolatry and the falling away of his people.. the context has always been horsemen riding....

Now, in the old testament, it was not the sword of the spirit, it wsa the physical sword that israel fought with.
In revelation, this is the revelation of Chrsit, not antichrist. Thus, the seals are OPENED by Christ, not the forces of satan who are rebellious to Christ. Thus, the first seal is the gospel as patterned by the first angel and it's everlasting gospel.. (look at the 7 angels and the 7 seals, they are uncanny in parallels).

The 5th seal is the result of what happened in the first 4 seals and have to do with the saints. Most have this non-continuity of story line when they go from the 4 seals to the 5th one.. remember, just as the kingso f the east march later in REvelation and the euphrates dries up, so too, the symbolism is taken from elsewhere in the bible for these........

The first seal, the gospel rides..

and altho there is a physical representation we see on earth, it is patterned against the spiritual that is above.. always is.....


I'll get into more later when I can post one of my archived studies on this.. late for work.


Carmine

You do realize that other countries have 2 or more of those 4 colors in their flags, not solely Islamic countries. Just to name a few... Australia, United States, South Korea, Canada, Vanuatu, Italy, Mexico, British Virgin Islands, United Kingdom, even the Olympic flag.

And Turkey can dry up the Euphrates with the flip of a switch now.

that is interesting, wendy
but to help confrim your hypothesis you should research colorful metaphors...
my ? is do colors actually represent emotion throughout history and does it have a origin of beginning???

Greetings all:

I was going over some of my old notes on this topic and I was led in the Spirit to something that I had overlooked. As you know, the rider on the white horse had a bow but no arrow. I've always wondered why that is. Does it represents something that the rider perceived to have power but really doesn't, thus can't really hurt unless we gave its power to hurt us by our sinful actions? Anyway, like I had mentioned, I was going over my old notes and I came across my copies of word definitions on "Bow and arrow". In it, its states that Arrow were sometimes used for divination (see Ezek. 21:21-26)in accordance with Mesopotamian custom, and also for magical purposes (see IIKings 13:15-19). "Arrow" is often used symbolically to represent violence (see Ps.11:2; 57:4-5) or divine judgment (see Ps. 7:13-14; 38:2-3; 64:7-8). What had struck to me was while I do remember reading about how Elisha told the King to shoot arrows out to defeat his enemies but it had never occur to me that arrows could also be used as divination. By the fact that this rider had a bow but no arrow is a testament of God's saying that this rider has no true victory but ultimately will be defeated, at least it does to me.

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

The parallels of the colors of the flags is interesting but like you say, there is much more. The best way is to let the Scripture interpret itself by comparing scripture with scripture.
In prophecy, White always stands for purity.
Just a few texts.
Psalm 51:7 Wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
Isa 1:18 "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as
snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from me ...white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness.
Rev 12: the pure woman clothed in white faithful to Jesus and keeping God's commandments.
Rev 17: Contrasts pure woman in white with the harlot Babylon in Scarlet.
Rev 19: Jesus is shown riding on a White horse.

Here is an alternative possibility for the seals.
All of the series of 7 in revelation are not chronological or linear but parallell. Parallelism is a common literary form in the Hebrew writings. Like Daniel 2, 7, 8 and 11. The all start and end in practically the same place. Granted, Revelation was not written in Hebrew, but John was Hebrew and thought in Hebrew thought patterns.

notice the ending of each of the periods of 7:
The 7 churches end with Judgment, Jesus spitting out of his mouth the lukewarm leaving the hot.
The 7 seals, end with "..sky receded like a scroll...every mountain and island was removed from its place. …For the great day of their wrath has come
The 7 Trumpets End with: ‘‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
The 7 Plagues end with: The seventh angel poured out his bowl… Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake... God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found (Re 16:17-20).

Just suppose the Revelation 4:1f is not really talking about the rapture (which is a very dubious interepretation) but simply referring to John in vision, then the seals would be the begining of the unfolding of the future of the church form John's time until the end.

Then the rider on the white horse would be the symbolic of the church as conqueror, the Gospel did go to the world in the early church. White is the purity of the Gospel.
Now Jesus is the center. Unfortunately, the church would be plunged into the dark ages of corruption of the pure gospel, red, black and pale horses. But emerge victorious as the white robes of Christ's righteousness appear in the 5th seal and Jesus finally delivers his church on the great day of the Lamb's Wrath.

I realize that this is far different from the popular interpretations today, but the book of Revelation is a letter from Jesus to the church from front to back. Revelation 1:1-4, 22:16
A very strong case can be made for a Christ Centered approach to unterpreting "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." It would also mean a Christ Centered look at the 70th week of Daniel 9. That is why the ongoing discusions on the 70 weeks is so vital.
Follow the Lamb
3am

The four horses have to be judgements, for that's what the seals, trumpets and vials are. Ruling out the white horse being Jesus. For all its worth the flag of Islam is white, red, black and green. Also the rider of the red horse is given a sword to kill with. The word kill means to butcher, to slaughter, to maim violently. This seems to be the preferred method to kill in Islam. Also bombs accomplish the same thing. For all its worth, that's some of what I came up with.

guesswho,



Where does the Bible say the 4 horses have to be judgments?
Where for that matter does it say the seals have to be what the trumpets and vials are.
The white horse isn't Jesus. The white horse is the church conquering the world
with the Gospel of Jesus.
Who is to say that God cannot use the seals to unfold the future of his church as it moves from the pure White Gospel Triumph, persecution, compromise, the darkness of the dark ages and finally restoration and victory. God makes the rules not us. If white is used through out the Bible for purity, seems like one saying it is otherwise in one place, they would have to make a case for it from Scripture.

Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus.
The church is the body of Jesus.



Interesting, but are you saying that these horses represent Islam when they persecuted the church in mideval times and now again in the present and still more in the future?

3am

"Now , I disagree with those who say Allah is not the God of Israel . The Qu'oran has as one of its central figures Moses , ( along with all the other prophets ) . It is a biblically based book - in the same way that many other errant belief systems derive from Christianity . It rigorously objects to worshipping false gods and idols . It is too easy to characterize Islam as just a moon-God religion .
Anyhow , I am not making excuses , all I am leading to is this , who do you think Moses and Elijah , the two witnesses of Jerusalem , will witness too ? Jews ? or Jews and Moslems ?
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Not so at all....

Allah is not the god if Isreal but is a moon God and that is a fact. Allah was originally a female fertility goddess named "Allat". The Arabic equivalent to the goddess Asherah. Ishtar, Venus/Moon. In fact, the same goddess has many names as the so-called "queen of heaven".

Please check out the link on Arabian deities before Islam for your research.

http://nabataea.net/gods.html

You may well be right Deborah..............

My reading of the Qu'oran is this :

It is a doctrine based around trying to steal the promises of God to the Jews , and replace them as promises to the sons of Ishmael .

In the same way that the Temple has been built over with Mosque .

(As-salaamu Alayqoum w rahmutallah)
(Quote)
Not so at all....

Allah is not the god if Isreal but is a moon God and that is a fact. Allah was originally a female fertility goddess named "Allat". The Arabic equivalent to the goddess Asherah. Ishtar, Venus/Moon. In fact, the same goddess has many names as the so-called "queen of heaven". (Unquote)

Now i disagree with this statement. I believe that ALLAH (Ar-Rahman w Ar-Rahim- The All Beneficent and the All Merciful) is the same deity that is worshipped in Christianity and Judaism.
Now 1LikeDeborah i do agree with you that ALLAH is derived from the name of a pre-Islamic Arabian Moon idol named allat (that is true), but then, many of GOD'S (Al Quddus w'l Khaliq) names, even Hebrew names are derived from the names of idols. For example, 1 of GOD'S (Al Aziz w'Al Bari) names is El. But this name was not always applied to OUR GOD (Al Aziz w'Al Bari). The name El was once used by the Canaanites and applied to their deity ba'al. The Israelites then took the name of this pagan deity and applied to the Real CREATOR. The name ALLAH simply means GOD in Arabic. I think the reason that Islam has the crescent as its symbol is simply because Islam follows a lunar calendar, not because its a moon-god religion.
This is my opinion, but i still maybe wrong, i'm not trying to preach anything to you, i'm just outlining my own individual opinion while trying to obey the warning at the end of Revealation about changing what the Bible says; i'm not trying to change what the Bible said and i hope that my sources serve me well.

ALLAHU Ahkbar

How is it that you use a hebrew name and claim allah as God? Mohammed said that Jews were descended from monkeys and pigs and that they should be killed. Allah said to strike their heads off(the infidels). Jehovah said that vengeance is his. Jesus is the son of God, which mohammed blatently denied. These are facts and truth. Islam was spread by forced conversion at the edge of the sword, with mass murder as the preferred method of mohammed, while Jesus said to love your enemies. They are not the same. Allah is not Jehovah or even remotely like him. Read Collossians chapter 1 about Jesus. He created all powers including Allah, and has preminence over them all. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord of all.

No, not allahu ahkbar. This is a lie. Jehovah/ Jesus is greatest. For those who don't know, all terrorists shout allahu ahkbar as they murder innocents. It means allah is greatest or greater. This is a fantasy. Jesus claimed to be the Way, the Truth, & the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him. Mohammed denied this and claimed otherwise. Allah isn't the way. Never was or will be.

I could and would say more, but I don't want to anger you Samuel. I pray that you come to the knowledge of the truth, found in the Bible and only in Christ Jesus.

As-salaamu Alayqoum w rahmutallah.

Now Chrio39, i can understand why you disagree with me. Like you i believe that -La ilaha illa ISA- there is no god but JESUS. But i think, that marginalising the name of Allah solely to Islam isn't correct. I mean, there are many Arab Christians out there, but then what would they call GOD if calling him Allah is false?
I do believe like you, that Muhammad was a real man, but i completely disagree that he was actually a Prophet. My opinion is that he wanted to look alot like Moses, Adam, Isaac, Abraham, Jacob and JESUS (GOD), by saying that the same GOD who spoke to these Prophets and who was JESUS spoke to him as well. Yes i believe as much as you do that the Qu'ran is incorrectly written and, in the simplest word FALSE, but i think saying that it says to "wipe the infidels from GOD'S sight soley because they disagree with you" is a bit far. I know that the Qur'an does say that violence is acceptable under certain circumstances, but, as far as i've read 'only in the defense of Islam.' (I'm not trying to justify this violence). From what i've heard so far about Islam, Muhammad told his followers to respect Christians and Jews, and throughout history, especially during the Crusades the Arabs/Muslims were very honourable and generous in stark contrast to the westerners who claimed to be Christians. Another verse that i've heard a Muslim recite from the Qu'ran is that 'to take the life of a single person is no better or worse than to kill a multitude of people.'The simplest arguement when people say, TheMuslims are in a global Jihad against us!, my answer is that those who fly planes into buildings, take people hostage and commit other atrocities are in the absolute minority of the mainstream population; every single Religion has its extremists, even, i regretfully say, Christianity.
I apologise for getting off the topic, but on the Allah question, an Arab Christian might say they worship Allah, but i don't think that necessarily means that they read the Qu'ran instead of the rightly inspired Bible, or that they deny JESUS as the sovereign GOD of all things, in my opinion, its a bit like saying that Ibrahim (Abraham) is not the same man to which GOD promised Israel or that Musa (Moses) was not the same man who led his people through the Red Sea or that Harun (Aaron) was his brother.
My overall opinion is, that a slight difference in the name of a figure doesn't necessarily make them a different figure.
I don't wish to sound like i'm arguing, or like i'm angry, and again i'm open to the great possibility of my incorrect interpretation.
Ma3a Salaama
La ilaha illa-Isa-hu
There is no god worthy to be worshipped but JESUS

Hello Samuel,

I must say that I agree with much of what you say here but certainly not all. I don't take you as arguing, but stating your beliefs. That said, I again say that allah is not YHWH, or Adonai, or Jehova, or Jesus (Yeshua). Allah IS a separate entity, an unclean spirit that did inspire mohammed to do what he did. If arab christians call him allah, it is out of ignorance. Allah is also arabic for god - a title not a name, as well as the name of the islamic god. Mohammed was a real man. He married an 8 yr old girl and slept with her when she was 9. We have a name for men who have sex with children. He was directly responsible for countless murders and rapes, and had many wives also. Some prophet. The quran does say to kill the jews, and to kill infidels with different verses. The homicide bombers and radical islamics are following the teachings of their prophet. It is true that there are verses saying to respect christians and Jews, but there are many contradictions in the koran. You could legitimately be peaceful or a jihadist without violating the commands of the quran. Jihadists kill and maim and behead because their 'holy' book instructs them to. Others are peaceful because it tells them to be peaceful. You get to take your choice. The jihadists are mostly shia and of the wahabbi sect, which majors on the verses proclaiming subjigation of the masses and worldwide conquest and domination and full sharia law. It is all in there. The masadras in the US are funded by Saudi Arabia and are of the wahabbi sect. The same goes for Pakistan. They are breeding jihadists who hate christians and Jews and their lands, which they are giving the choice to convert or be forcefully subjected to islam. It is an evil religion. It will be destroyed by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the only true and living God who is by no means Allah. May God bless you Samuel.

As-salaamu Alayqoum.
I must say Chrio39, you certainly are starting to make me think about this more deeply.
Can i just ask you in relation to your comment about Allah being an unclean spirit or entity that inspired Muhammad, do you mean that, if Allah is a separate spirit, do you believe that he exists as a separate spirit? I just wanted to clarify that.
Also when you said that, if Arab Christians refer to GOD as Allah, that it is out of ignorance, could you also clarify what you meant by this because i didn't really understand it.
1 final question, (and i'm not trying to be arguementative, i just want to be sure of some things) what is your opinion about what name Arab Christians should use for GOD if Allah is incorrect?

(I hope you don't take offense to any of my questions, its just difficult for me to convey my attitude correctly on a forum with questions such as these)

Alayqoumu Salaam
Ma3a Salaama

Hey Samuel, I'll try to answer your questions and make my responses in red.

As-salaamu Alayqoum

First off, thankyou Chrio39 for your helpful insight, answers and your patience (I apologise sincerely if you were in any way offended by my interpretation (which i'm starting to think might not be correct))

And apologies Wendy for getting sooooo off the topic. When i read your interpretation of the 4 Horsemen by looking for the colours on the flags of Islamic Countries i thought that was VERY well observed and i think i should commend you for your vigilance and your open-mindedness. I also think that the 4 Horsemen representing Islam may very well be correct and i thought you were very knowledgable likening the emergance of Islam in history with its allegded appearance in Revealation (The 6th centurey and Chapter 6 of Revealation) .
I just wondering if these catastrophies in Revealation ( the 4 Horsemen) are what IS to come, or what is supposed to happen UNTIL JESUS' (Peace and blessings upon HIM) second coming.
I'd love to hear more of your inspirational interpretations of Scripture in the future!

Alayqoumu Salaam

I see four horsemen they began riding shortly after creation.

I see one Victorious riding on a horse leading us his army.

I see the season, but not the day or the hour.

bananna

Howdy all,

Wow, this was alot to read! But, as I was reading I remembered something my youngest son had said to me when the "four" planes hit our country. Now, this boy has limited reading ability and had never read Revelations, but I thought this was kind of an interesting thought about the 4 horsemen...

He told me "Mom, did you notice "only three of the planes acutally hit something"? I asked him "Why are you thinking about this?" He replied "Well, now three of the four horsemen are here on earth, and the fourth one hasn't come yet". I thought about his thoughts for a time now...and if one thinks about it..it kinda does make sense. The pale horse hasn't come to do his reaping yet...the bringer of death and destruction...well "not fully" but the other three seem to be having themselves a grand old time. Think on this for a moment.

The first horseman is:

Rev6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer

He's giving it a good shot, true?

Another working hard:

Rev6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

The third one:

Rev6:6
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

So, how much are you paying for necessities in this world....they are outrageous...well, where I live the prices are ridulous. I remember "always vacationing when I was a girl"...now even just me and hubby....can't do anything...because we need food, clothing and shelter...or is this just me?

Now, that last horseman:

Rev6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I dunno...coming soon to a theater near you!

My favorite prayer is the Lords Prayer...Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven...Praise the Lord...bring heaven on, amen! hannah

This is just food for thought, nothing more, nothing less...just an observation by a "young man" who loves the Lord but can't read that well to grasp the whole bible...just his little thoughts, that I thought...hmmmm...

Hi Wendy,

This is a great topic, as well as the side topic of heraldry...

On heraldry, for the moment, I too noticed the colors of Islam, and would add that as a rule, the colors of socialist countries seem to be represented as yellow and red, and that the colors of "Western Civilization" tend to be red,white, and blue. This gets more profound if you look at the heraldic symbols of the countries involved.

On the Horsemen,

One type surely may be represented by the powers on earth. If this is so, then the four horsemen are not a doom or curse, but a narrative to show the time:

White Horse -Christianity, Bow (sometimes symbolic of Jacob incidentally, Jacob as the mighty arm of God), sets forth to conquer (culminates in Brittan established around the world, and the US/UK nations as head of Western Christian nations and democracy. The only one of the powers given a crown (has the right to establishment, sanctioned), represented by the Lion (Brittan, or Christian as Lion of Judah). sets out to conquer, as opposed to kill. Note that I do not mean the nations involved, but rather that the "flow of this power" runs through these nations. The power could be Christianity, or Democracy/Freedom/Rule of Law.

Red Horse -Communism, Socialism/Fascism (Both of the same root). Given a sword to slaughter many (well documented in Hitler's and Stalin's atrocities) Represented by the Ox, which I don't understand, but could be considered as a "working" animal... These powers are built upon the "working class" and are utilitarian.

Black Horse -Islam\Mohammedanism, (Black flag of Jihad) scales, weighing or meting out of staple foods, While luxury is only for a few. This is highly representative of the oil rich Islamic nations, where there is an upper class of royalty or priests, and a peasant population. Conquered nations are often sucked dry and left destitute. Represented by a man (Mohamed).

Pale Horse -End time dominion of the beast. Pale could be off-white, green, or as a third option, pale as in ghostly or clear (hard to see). Not yet evident but coalescing. Could be the much debated masonic invisible Illuminati thing, but is too vague to tell yet. Represented by an eagle- Could be US, could be Germany, among others... This one is a little while away and is still speculation.

I am not saying I KNOW this, but it is an interesting parallel.

-Bruce

Greetings all:

Thank you for the kind words but the Glory of Praise is to be given unto the Lord, not I. I got to say that all of your observations are quite interesting and food for thought, especially the last post of its parallel. I often think of the horsemen colors were parallel to something more spiritual, as well as its allusion to the colors of most Islamic countries. Like for instance, white signifies purity, truth. The first mention of the word white as a color was found in Gen. 30:35, concerning Jacob's separating the spreckled, spotted goats from his uncle's flock. Fascinating parallel there. In that light, Jacob represents Joshua separating the bad away from His flock of good and purity. Then red signifies the filth of sin and here's an real interesting parallel of Is. 1:18-20

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken of it.

Then you have the black which signifies, in this case, judgment. Of this black horse, God directly tell it not to harm the oil and the wine. The color of black was first mentioned in Lev. 13:31 but one got to read it in entirety of Lev. 13:29-46 to fully appreciate the parallel again. I'm still mulling over the oil and wine. People have made much to the fact that in John's time when he had the vision, those were luxury items. I don't know but that's too obvious of an intrepretation for me. I feel strongly that there's more to it than just being luxury items per se. God had specificially states to the black rider not to "damage" the oil and wine. I'm thinking that oil here may means the seal of annointment of His servants and the wine here may means the communion between God and man. Wondering out loud on that one.

As for the pale horse, that was quite an interesting observation of being transparency, hard to see, not clear. Sound like demons to me and in a way, I do think that it does. The fourth rider is death and death had company with him, Hades. Hades is an mythological greek figure of the underworld and interestingly enough, he also has possession of earth's riches (I'm thinking, resources). He wears an hat of invisibility and is very possessive of those who enters into his domain. Note the verse that they (Death AND Hades) were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by the sword, the famine and plague and by the wild beasts of the earth. Death and myth, an lethal combo to look out for. Let me try to paraphase this: they will kill by the false sword of sin that starves and disease the soul of which will be given up to the wild beasts of demons.

Again, I do thank all of you for contributing food for thought here.

Blessing of peace be upon you.

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

Bruce and Wendy I have enjoyed reading what you both had to say! I do find it very
interesting the connection you both have made with the colors! I will certainly have to
check this out a little more!


Your Friend in Christ,
Val
Messiahiscoming

Jesus is the 6th horse, we hafve the holy spirit.. first horse

then the 4 horsemen

then Chrsit's return

And I can hardly wait!

sojourner

Banana is right- remember that each Gospel was written to serve a different purpose. For instance, Luke is often called the Gospel for the Gentiles. The parable of the good Samaritan appears in this book. The woman at the well. The Roman centurian whose son is healed. All these folks are Gentiles- and it helps us Gentile folk (I'm assuming you aren't Jewish) to know that we are included in God's plan.

John's Gospel focuses on Christ's divinity. John is very etherial... and begins with, "In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God." He begins talking about Christ's divine nature.

Mark is a breathless Gospel. Jesus seems to fly from one place to the next, performing miracle after miracle in sweeping action! Jesus is POWERFUL!

Matthew is the Gospel for the Jews. In this Gospel you will find a lot of the focus on Christ's creditials so to speak. The book begins with Jesus' royal line and then the entire book is sprinkled with how Christ keeps his Jewish traditions and finally how He was the ultimate fulfillment of the law.

Greetings all:

I had cut-n-paste this from another thread (Jhammer was the original poster, thank you) because I had felt that it was somewhat related to what is being talked about here. I couldn't help but notices the similiarities of the 4 living creatures that had preceded the chapter of the 4 horsemen. I had thought of it this way:

Matthew -> Jews -> Lion -> White (Truth vs. Deception)

Mark -> working class -> Ox -> Red (Righteousness vs. Sin)

Luke -> Gentiles -> Man -> Black (Salvation vs. Judgment)

John -> Ethereall (lofty, spiritual) -> Eagle -> Pale (or green) (Life vs. Death)

or think of it this way: Before death, there has to be an judgment made. Before judgment, sin has to occur. Before sin occured, error in thinking has to take place.

Sincerely yours,

Wendy

Wendy,

The Seven Seals including the Fourhorsemen has a great parallel in Mathew 24: starting with verse 4. It is from the Lord Jesus Himself Who is the only worthy Opener of the Seals in Revelation. From there we could study a great deal further.

a student in Christ
bebe

The white horse is the anti christ. He is indwelt by one of the four spirits that are released from the Euphrates.

We see he instantly wants to imitate Jesus Christ who also returns on a white horse. But Jesus does not come back until the final moment when things are dire..

This white horse imposter has been held in abeyance by Christ Jesus Himself until the time of the end. These horses can not go forth until Christ Jesus allows them to go forth.....

Notice the first horse is a warring man but has not arrow because he a politician. He leads his followers thru deception and makes himself to look like a hero. Indeed the other horse/horseman follow him. He is their leader. And what does he really lead behind the scenes,,,,death, famine, disease and destruction.

This is what God is going to allow the anti christ to do, because men had no love of the truth...it doesn't come to pass soley because it is the devil's wish...although of course it is his wish...it comes to pass because the people love a false god more than the true and living God...In fact they become so depraved in their own minds, being willfully ignorant to the truth that God reprobates them even further over into their delusions....even to the extreme of following the one who is killing them but is a liar and behind him and behind the scenes are the true characteristics of this so called false god....so we see, horseman #1 is the anti christ....horseman 2,3 and 4 are his demonic angelic generals who bring forth and show his true character...not the character he portrays because he's a liar and a deciever....it is by these lies and deceptions that he puts forth the 7 yr covenant that is later signed....

The white horse guy will act like his is a peacemaker with no arrows....but all the while directing all the havoc in the world by his generals...this havoc, which we see at work right now, get's the false god worshippers thinking how great it would be to have peace....think Iraq....or Africa or Pakistan or Israel...etc etc....

The three generals bring the world to the brink of nuclear destruction pitting one kingdom against another an men against men....when it gets to the point that it looks like world destruction is emminent, think Cuban missle crisis..the lying deciever politician...the white horse bowman...who is leading all this behind the scenes...comes in like a white knight on a white horse preaching peace prosperity and saftey...

He is able to deliver this as promised, because the other horseman are and always have been in allegiance to him. He sets himself up to look good but is the most despicable of them all....he brings this peace so that he can pull off the biggest con job of the age....which is be killed, then rise again as an image, probably a robot, that looks like a living person....and proclaim himself as god....

Why does the real living God allow this...because mankind hates Jesus/God and loves false idols...therefore, as has been the case historically, the True and Living God gives them exactly what they want....a false god that imiates the real God....it's His judgement and humor on mankind...He is going to give them an image to worship that is not even a real human being but rather a pretend risen savior that is nothing more than an idol...the one thing He tells us not to worship again and again and again and again...but people hate a True invisible God...and people love idols..they always have..

This will be the final culmination of God giving man over to his wishes...we see it prevalent throughout the world in all "other" religions and "isms"

Whether it be marylotry, buddah, vishnu, the rock of islam/black rock, satanic worship, calf worship which continues in India...they must be from Dan, money, world power, etc....

If people see it they will worship it...if they can not see it, they will say it does not exsist......

Why was Abraham a choosen instrument of God....because He believed in the true nature of God....no other reason...just one man, at a dire time in history that believed God thus as was foreordained before the foundation of the earth, the Hebrews would deliver God's oracles...not because they were good, but because they believed God..or rather some of them did...it's a difficult thing to do...not many people ever find Him, because they give up before He reveals Himself.....

The first white horse is the imposter..and indeed the islamists are looking for a mahdi on a white horse thus they play heavily into the anti christ deception....this first white horse is commanded by God Himself to go forth and decieve...not because it is good but because men have lost a love of the truth and they will not come back to the real God so they are give a god that represents all the sin that they themselves advocate and have hypothocated as good and normal human activity.

But don't worry the elect will not be fooled by this false white horse imposter...because he will not be coming on clouds of Glory!