[Humble Bob]

Recently someone posted a response about how the Gospel doesn't stand or fall with the cross represented at Mt. Soledad, San Diego. His comment, I felt, was general to any symbolic representation of the cross, and it got me to wonder "what is the real depth and meaning to the cross? Is it more than a symbol? Does it matter if the cross at Mt. Soledad were to come down?" Personally, I am glad that it has endured so far.

Rather than respond directly I felt moved to post this thread as a study to this hypothesis; is the Gospel independent of a symbol that is the cross?

As with any study I have posted I always entreat upon the Lord a prayer for guidance and understanding. Lord, I pray your Holy Spirit will grant wisdom and inspire a sincere understanding to the meaning of the cross. Let this be a a good thread that honors your name, in Jesus' name, Amen.

I am led to start with Numbers 21:9

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

In this instance what Moses had done was to clearly create an icon, a symbol out of material, at the Lord's instruction. Yet this symbol, being immaterial, imparted the Lord's power to save those who had looked upon it, and for those who did not died. This is very compelling to me to believe the symbol of the cross has a "mystical" connection to the Lord; his presence being around it for it inspires one to look upon the cross and see it more than just a crucifix. It is the symbol of the resurrection and the life of Jesus Christ.

Now, why did the Lord choose a serpent to hang on a pole? This was a symbol, according to the bible, that Moses did fashion and that it literally saved people from dying after being bitten by the snakes that were in the vally they travelled through. Today, that symbol is often represented with Christ fastened on the crucifix. So, could God have told Moses to fashion a man on a pole and it would have had the same effect? No. The Lord told Moses to fashion a serpent on a pole, why a serpent then, and why Christ on the crucifix today?

Your comments are welcomed and please any referencing scriptures will be very helpful to this discussion.

[C]

HB, Jesus became sin for us on the cross. Here , Moses is looking forward to the Crucifixion. The serpent, the symbol of sin from the garden, Jesus became that on the cross. By looking at Him, we have healing, deliverance and salvation.
If we take our eyes off of Him, we die.

[rtkiii66]

Last time I checked the cross was vacant. The one who made the cross significant is currently at the right hand of the Father. I suspect many were killed by crucifiction but not much is written about them, nor do I think the cross would be symbolic by their death. We are temples of the Holy Spirit and the cross has no significance other than a form of execution and that one who hung from a tree was cursed, He became a curse for us.


Act 17:22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus, and said, Ye men of Athens, in all things, I perceive that ye are very religious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. What therefore ye worship in ignorance, this I set forth unto you.
Act 17:24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
Act 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
Act 17:31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


How many christians are currently worshiping in ignorance?

or worshiping an unknown god?


Salvation is about a relationship, a relationship which was restored by Jesus Christ, one of many things Jesus is a eternal high priest, constantly making intersession for us.

This post has been edited by rtkiii66: 05 July 2006 - 05:00 PM

[Humble Bob]

These are all good comments. C, I love how you explained not to take your eyes off of Christ even though one may look upon the cross, and RTK your post explains it well that when you keep your eyes fixed upon Christ is that not like keeping your relationship with Christ?

...Interesting, is the cross vacant? A few weeks back I was struck by a picture Shekel had posted on one of his codes, which showed Moses with the staff holding the serpent on it. It inspired me to dwell more upon the cross and it's meaning.

When you look at the picture I had posted, the stain glass window, does it not look like the serpent is hung up on the cross? Does it not look that the serpent is trapped by the cross? It's coiled about the cross but it doesn't look as if it can get away.

What do you all think?

[leia]

Thank you HB for the thread and thank you Mr. C for the reason it was a snake...that makes sense to me now and I had always wondered about it.

Oh, I knew sin is the snake but I always figured the cross with Jesus and to place the snake there....I was confused, but the confusion has lifted.

Jesus took, for that moment in time, all the sins of the world upon Himself and they were crucified with Him. All those who look to Him accept that power over sin....the power to never sin again as long as Jesus is within our sight. But we take our sights off Him and then the power over sin is lost. The snake IS sin and it means that it was killed with Him for us. Praise the wonderful name of Jesus.

I do have a special place in my heart for the object of the cross itself. I used to not; I felt it was an instrument of torture and paramount to wearing the make of the gun that killed my mother around my neck. Not only tacky but, in the case of our Lord, it seemed blasphamous.

It took years for the Lord to show me that it was pride not to accept it with dignity and grace. To accept that the tree was grown from the beginning of time from a tiny seed just to have Him nailed against it. Not to accept it was to turn away from the severity of sin and the hugeness of salvation. To simply accept Him and not the horror He endured on that cross was to dilute or shake off completely the glaring difference between Lord and man. It keeps one humble, to the infinate degree, to not only know that one has been saved by another....but that the degree of punishement was so severe, was known before accepting it, and that it should have been me.

I do not look at it with even any of the "loves" defined by all the Greek divisions of the word. The cruel punishment I remember when I see it reminds me of the emensity of the debt I owe. We ought never to loose that reminder. The cross is what I deserved and he took it.

leia

[Humble Bob]

I am glad for the inspiration you felt, Leia. May the Holy Spirit deepen your understanding and faith even more.

Here's the kicker, and I'll just say it. The only time the cross was truely ever vacant was before Christ was crucified. There was nothing there and so the cross was meaning less. But when Christ was crucified, sin was drawn onto Christ as a great serpent and it had wrapped himself around our savior. Sin was drawn to Christ because our Lord was sinless and every man must unwillingly bear the burden of sin for that was our inheritance. And the serpent tried to enter Christ to soil him with sin so as to make certain his death, but when Christ finally died sin failed to enter our saviour onto the last of our Lord's breath, and his body was taken down.

But lo and behold! The serpent is trapped, and no longer free to roam amongst man to burden itself unwillingly onto man. In the place of our savior the serpent now hangs on the cross trapped never to escape again!

In the mean while, Christ is resurrected. The grave could not hold him because our Lord is without sin and it's wages could not be collected from him.

At the end of time on the day of judgement, the cross bearing the serpent will be cast into the lake of fire, and that is how sin will be destroyed forever.

Now you understand the meaning of what Moses had done and of the meaning of the cross.
Amen.