Humble Bob, on Apr 7 2006, 05:50 PM, said:
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
It does not makes sense Christ prayed only for his disciples, that "them" is a reference to all of mankind. This is consistent that Christ was crucified for all not for just eleven men and one to suffer eternal damnation. That just doesn't make sense.
That no where in the scripture is a strict reference to Judas as being the son of perdition also makes for a dubious interpretation (at least to me) as Judas being solely the son of perdition.
Further, that the "falling away," I believe, is the realization of being a person with which the son of perdition inhabits within us. And that you cannot see the son of perdition within you if you do not fall away. Falling away, I believe, does not mean falling away from your faith in Christ, rather to fall away from yourself.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Verse four, I believe, is a universal warning to anyone that would exhalt himself or herself above God, so why would this verse reference only Judas?
Does it makes sense then that there will be an attempt to lift Judas up above God, so that people's faith in Christ begin to falter? If it was even tried I would believe that such a thing is a lie for NO man can be raised above God.
My spirit feels warned to leave Judas out of this for if it is said he is the son of perdition there is a grieving in me that this lie will cause many to loose faith in Christ. That if someone does try to raise Judas above God it will be a horrid thing, or that if one argues Judas as the son of perdition and lays him low, he or she does not lay themselves low and there would also be a loss.
I feel distressed that it seems it is not enough Christ has died on the cross for our sins but we are always seeking a scapegoat. Dump the scape goat, I say, Christ is enough.
I am very confused by your post. I think that Christ was refrencing His disicples in verse 12. If you want to find us in this passage I think you need to keep reading. Look at verse 20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also with shall believe on me through their word. I think this is a reference to us. We were the ones that believed because of their faithfullness to spread the Gospel.
So who else could the Son of Perdition be in verse 12 but Judas. He was the only one who would lost that the scripture might be fulfilled.
But where you really lost me was the scripture in II Thessalonians I have to say that I do not follow your interpretation of this passage at all. I think this scripture is clearly speaking of the Anti-Christ , The Wicked One, The Son Of Perdtion.
Just as Shekel said that he is not saying that Judas is the Anti-Christ but that just as John came in the power of Elijah why would the Anti-Christ surface in the power of Judas.
Your Friend in Christ,