[Messiahiscoming]

Humble Bob, on Apr 7 2006, 05:50 PM, said:

I have felt that the son of perdition was a spiritual metaphor for the sinful nature that inhabits our flesh.  It is the inherent part of us resulting from the tree of knowledge going back to the days of Adam and Eve, and that in the end must be lost.  I felt when Christ prayed that he prayed for all of man and that only the son of perdition that is in each of us be lost

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

It does not makes sense Christ prayed only for his disciples, that "them" is a reference to all of mankind.  This is consistent that Christ was crucified for all not for just eleven men and one to suffer eternal damnation.  That just doesn't make sense.

That no where in the scripture is a strict reference to Judas as being the son of perdition also makes for a dubious interpretation (at least to me) as Judas being solely the son of perdition.

Further, that the "falling away," I believe, is the realization of being a person with which the son of perdition inhabits within us.  And that you cannot see the son of perdition within you if you do not fall away.  Falling away, I believe, does not mean falling away from your faith in Christ, rather to fall away from yourself.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Verse four, I believe, is a universal warning to anyone that would exhalt himself or herself above God, so why would this verse reference only Judas?

Does it makes sense then that there will be an attempt to lift Judas up above God, so that people's faith in Christ begin to falter?  If it was even tried I would believe that such a thing is a lie for NO man can be raised above God.

My spirit feels warned to leave Judas out of this for if it is said he is the son of perdition there is a grieving in me that this lie will cause many to loose faith in Christ.  That if someone does try to raise Judas above God it will be a horrid thing, or that if one argues Judas as the son of perdition and lays him low, he or she does not lay themselves low and there would also be a loss.

I feel distressed that it seems it is not enough Christ has died on the cross for our sins but we are always seeking a scapegoat.  Dump the scape goat, I say, Christ is enough.

I am very confused by your post. I think that Christ was refrencing His disicples in verse 12. If you want to find us in this passage I think you need to keep reading. Look at verse 20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also with shall believe on me through their word. I think this is a reference to us. We were the ones that believed because of their faithfullness to spread the Gospel.
So who else could the Son of Perdition be in verse 12 but Judas. He was the only one who would lost that the scripture might be fulfilled.

But where you really lost me was the scripture in II Thessalonians I have to say that I do not follow your interpretation of this passage at all. I think this scripture is clearly speaking of the Anti-Christ , The Wicked One, The Son Of Perdtion.

Just as Shekel said that he is not saying that Judas is the Anti-Christ but that just as John came in the power of Elijah why would the Anti-Christ surface in the power of Judas.

Your Friend in Christ,
Valerie

Messiahiscoming

[Messiahiscoming]

Shekel, on Apr 7 2006, 06:03 PM, said:

Humble Bob, on Apr 7 2006, 07:50 PM, said:

I have felt that the son of perdition was a spiritual metaphor for the sinful nature that inhabits our flesh.  It is the inherent part of us resulting from the tree of knowledge going back to the days of Adam and Eve, and that in the end must be lost.  I felt when Christ prayed that he prayed for all of man and that only the son of perdition that is in each of us be lost

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

It does not makes sense Christ prayed only for his disciples, that "them" is a reference to all of mankind.  This is consistent that Christ was crucified for all not for just eleven men and one to suffer eternal damnation.  That just doesn't make sense.

That no where in the scripture is a strict reference to Judas as being the son of perdition also makes for a dubious interpretation (at least to me) as Judas being solely the son of perdition.

Further, that the "falling away," I believe, is the realization of being a person with which the son of perdition inhabits within us.  And that you cannot see the son of perdition within you if you do not fall away.  Falling away, I believe, does not mean falling away from your faith in Christ, rather to fall away from yourself.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Verse four, I believe, is a universal warning to anyone that would exhalt himself or herself above God, so why would this verse reference only Judas?

Does it makes sense then that there will be an attempt to lift Judas up above God, so that people's faith in Christ begin to falter?  If it was even tried I would believe that such a thing is a lie for NO man can be raised above God.

My spirit feels warned to leave Judas out of this for if it is said he is the son of perdition there is a grieving in me that this lie will cause many to loose faith in Christ.  That if someone does try to raise Judas above God it will be a horrid thing, or that if one argues Judas as the son of perdition and lays him low, he or she does not lay themselves low and there would also be a loss.

I feel distressed that it seems it is not enough Christ has died on the cross for our sins but we are always seeking a scapegoat.  Dump the scape goat, I say, Christ is enough.

I mean you no harm Humble Bob, but you sound like the gnosticism of Gospel of Judas itself!

You said:

"I have felt that the son of perdition was a spiritual metaphor for the sinful nature that inhabits our flesh. It is the inherent part of us resulting from the tree of knowledge going back to the days of Adam and Eve, and that in the end must be lost. I felt when Christ prayed that he prayed for all of man and that only the son of perdition that is in each of us be lost "


You go on to say that the "them" in Jesus prayer is referring to "all men", but in that same prayer Jesus says, John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;"

The "them" clearly refers to the 11 apostles and then we have those who will believe their testimony after them prayed for next. Thus the son of perdition is obviously Judas --- one of the 12 apostles. And he is a real person, not a metaphor for something that must be sponged from us.

And the son of perdition in the book of Thessalonians is not Judas, but one like Judas, that is, the antichrist.

Question: Do you believe in a literal hell and a literal antichrist? Just wondering.

Shekel

That was quite odd,
I was posting a reply to HB and when I was finished I read your reply Seems the Lord gave us the same scripture in John 17 verse 20 (neither I pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word) about who Christ was talking about in this passage. I too agree that this was us who believed because the spreading of the gospel from the disciples.

Your Friend In Christ,
Valerie

Messiahiscoming

[Humble Bob]

Hi Dean.

I don't even know what gnosticism means.

I do believe that there is a hell but in the end the hell will be cast into the lake of fire that burns forever. I do not believe the lake of fire is hell.

As for the the anti Christ, my understanding is derived from 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7, that there is a spirit of an antichrist that causes people to not profess Christ as their Lord and Savior, and as such there are many antichrists.

Does this answer your question?

Also, I find it confusing anyone would call what has been in the news as "Gospel" even when referenced as the "Gospel according to Judas." My spirit feels warned this will cause a great debate and dissension by those poor choice of words

This post has been edited by Humble Bob: 07 April 2006 - 07:19 PM

[Shekel]

messiahiscoming, on Apr 7 2006, 08:09 PM, said:

Humble Bob, on Apr 7 2006, 05:50 PM, said:

I have felt that the son of perdition was a spiritual metaphor for the sinful nature that inhabits our flesh.  It is the inherent part of us resulting from the tree of knowledge going back to the days of Adam and Eve, and that in the end must be lost.  I felt when Christ prayed that he prayed for all of man and that only the son of perdition that is in each of us be lost

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

It does not makes sense Christ prayed only for his disciples, that "them" is a reference to all of mankind.  This is consistent that Christ was crucified for all not for just eleven men and one to suffer eternal damnation.  That just doesn't make sense.

That no where in the scripture is a strict reference to Judas as being the son of perdition also makes for a dubious interpretation (at least to me) as Judas being solely the son of perdition.

Further, that the "falling away," I believe, is the realization of being a person with which the son of perdition inhabits within us.  And that you cannot see the son of perdition within you if you do not fall away.  Falling away, I believe, does not mean falling away from your faith in Christ, rather to fall away from yourself.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Verse four, I believe, is a universal warning to anyone that would exhalt himself or herself above God, so why would this verse reference only Judas?

Does it makes sense then that there will be an attempt to lift Judas up above God, so that people's faith in Christ begin to falter?  If it was even tried I would believe that such a thing is a lie for NO man can be raised above God.

My spirit feels warned to leave Judas out of this for if it is said he is the son of perdition there is a grieving in me that this lie will cause many to loose faith in Christ.  That if someone does try to raise Judas above God it will be a horrid thing, or that if one argues Judas as the son of perdition and lays him low, he or she does not lay themselves low and there would also be a loss.

I feel distressed that it seems it is not enough Christ has died on the cross for our sins but we are always seeking a scapegoat.  Dump the scape goat, I say, Christ is enough.

I am very confused by your post. I think that Christ was refrencing His disicples in verse 12. If you want to find us in this passage I think you need to keep reading. Look at verse 20, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also with shall believe on me through their word. I think this is a reference to us. We were the ones that believed because of their faithfullness to spread the Gospel.
So who else could the Son of Perdition be in verse 12 but Judas. He was the only one who would lost that the scripture might be fulfilled.

But where you really lost me was the scripture in II Thessalonians I have to say that I do not follow your interpretation of this passage at all. I think this scripture is clearly speaking of the Anti-Christ , The Wicked One, The Son Of Perdtion.

Just as Shekel said that he is not saying that Judas is the Anti-Christ but that just as John came in the power of Elijah why would the Anti-Christ surface in the power of Judas.

Your Friend in Christ,
Valerie

Messiahiscoming

Wow! You would think that we would have planned the same response together! For we virtually gave the same response without knowing it. This only underscores the obviousness and veracity of what we said.

[Shekel]

Humble Bob, on Apr 7 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

Hi Dean. 

I don't even know what gnosticism means.

I do believe that there is a hell but in the end the hell will be cast into the lake of fire that burns forever.  I do not believe the lake of fire is hell.

As for the the anti Christ, my understanding is derived from 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7, that there is a spirit of an antichrist that causes people to not profess Christ as their Lord and Savior, and as such there are many antichrists.

Does this answer your question?

Also, I find it confusing anyone would call what has been in the news as "Gospel" even when referenced as the "Gospel according to Judas."  My spirit feels warned this will cause a great debate and dissension by those poor choice of words

It seems to me you are leaving the literal aspect out for the figurative. Why can't both be true?

[Humble Bob]

Shekel, on Apr 7 2006, 07:22 PM, said:

Humble Bob, on Apr 7 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

Hi Dean. 

I don't even know what gnosticism means.

I do believe that there is a hell but in the end the hell will be cast into the lake of fire that burns forever.  I do not believe the lake of fire is hell.

As for the the anti Christ, my understanding is derived from 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7, that there is a spirit of an antichrist that causes people to not profess Christ as their Lord and Savior, and as such there are many antichrists.

Does this answer your question?

Also, I find it confusing anyone would call what has been in the news as "Gospel" even when referenced as the "Gospel according to Judas."  My spirit feels warned this will cause a great debate and dissension by those poor choice of words

It seems to me you are leaving the literal aspect out for the figurative. Why can't both be true?

Perhaps both are, but as I have said before, I am spiritually blind and deaf. My understanding must come by way of the Holy Spirit that can accommodate a spiritually blind and deaf person.

And as for Verse 20, yes it does put into context that Jesus may had prayed to the Father first for his disciples and then for all. It does reads that way. Maybe Christ was referring to Judas when he spoke of the son of perdition, but it still does not change anything that would permit me to condemn Judas.

If truly there was freewill Judas would perhaps not have betrayed Christ, then where would man's salvation be? satan had to enter Judas and Christ had to tell Judas to do the matter quickly. Jesus even had to rebuke Peter for forbidding Christ to suffer and die.

This "Gospel of Judas" may be a real thing but it serves as a rouse and if one is not careful a retreat may be an advance into a trap or an advance may be a retreat into a trap. The believer is only left to trust Christ absolutely that this is in part of God's greater and perfect plan.