Miki, on Jun 24 2005, 09:18 AM, said:
From Forum: What do you say? · Post Preview: #8504 · Replies: 25 · Views: 464
ishtob, on Jun 13 2005, 08:21 AM, said:
The posttrib response is that we agree that neither the church, nor any believer of any age, is subject to God's wrath during the tribulation time. (To quote Dr Gundry, "Washed white in the blood of the Lamb, yet suffering the wrath of God because they missed a pretrib rapture. Is that what we're supposed to think about them?" From "First the Antichrist" page 49) There will be people saved during the 70th week and we would not expect these believers to be subject to God's wrath in light of the promise in
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." General tribulation is promised the church now but this is not God's wrath. So the tribulational character of the 70th week does not militate against the presence of the church. The church, and all who believe in Jesus never are subject to God's wrath. So posttribs agree with pretribs that the church will not experience God's wrath. Generally, pretribs reluctant will agree that tribulation saints do not "directly" experience God's wrath.
Thus, posttribs agree that the church is exempt from the wrath of God but that this exemption is as it has always been, in the time of Noah, or Lot, protection from Divine wrath poured out on the earth while they are still on the earth. (Believers are never said to be protected from Satan's wrath, but that the antichrist will be permitted to overcome them.) See Rev 13:5-7
And pretribs generally agree that believers during the trib are exempt from the wrath of God. So the presence of believers on earth during the trib shows that those believers may be members of the church.
Having God's wrath poured out on earth during the trib does not require the absence of the church to satisfy the promises of exemption from wrath.
Further support is gained from a study of
where divine wrath is specifically said to only strike the wicked.
This does not prove posttrib, but removes a major misunderstanding of the posttrib view, that the church by its presence in the trib will experience God's wrath.
~ The church in the book of Revelation
Pretribs argue that the word "church" does not appear in a significant portion of the book of Revelation, therefore it must be in heaven.
(1) The term "church" does not appear in tribulational passages with an earthly setting but it also does not appear in passages that describe heavenly scenes during the 70th week.
(2) Inferences (like the 24 elders) can be found for both sides. For example John, a member of the church, was persecuted "because of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus,"
and tribulation saints are persecuted for exactly the same reason.
(3) Pretribs often ask, "Why would God keep the church on earth during the terrible days of the tribulation?" The answer is, "for the same reason that He keeps the church on earth today: to be the objects and witnesses of God's saving grace to a dying world."
talks about an innumerable multitude of believers from "every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues" who come out of the great tribulation. Where do all these believers come from if, just some years before, every believer had been raptured? Revelation records not a single conversion! In fact, when discussing the people's response to the first six trumpets and several of the bowls, John says they "did not repent."
Rev 9.20-21, Rev 16.9-11
This is not to say there will be no conversions at all during the 70th week. But today, after nearly 2000 years of evangelistic outreach we still have not won people from every tribe and tongue. Yet pretribulationists believe that in seven years starting with no converts at all (except possibly the 144,000 Jewish bond-servants, who are never said to be evangelists, or the two witnesses of Rev. 11), the greatest evangelistic outreach in the history of mankind will occur. This will happen in spite of what most pretribulationists believe, that those who heard the gospel prior to the rapture will not repent during the tribulation because
"...they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."
A more reasonable explanation for this innumerable multitude is that they are the martyrs of the church whom the Antichrist has murdered during the 70th seek.
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1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
1Pe 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with [them] to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of [you]:
1Pe 4:5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1Pe 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
1Pe 4:9 Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.